Crafting an identity as a player in Warframe isn’t possible

[Anti-Incarnon]

First of all: By identity crafting I mean choosing a role for yourself, which is a big part of many pve multiplayer games. Some might want to be a healer, some want to be a melee-based rogue, a sniper, a controller, etc. You might, as I do, switch  between these roles, but being able to specialize brings flavor and variety to games. In current-day Warframe only the DPS role is meaningful and all the frames that are considered meta can self-sustain and self-boost. I don’t think anyone can debate otherwise.

Whether you agree that this is a problem or not, it severely limits the number of meaningful choices we as players are left with. You might want to play Trinity and use a non-meta gun, but you’ll be reduced to being an observer of mayhem in high-level play. This also limits the kind of Warframes the developers can add in the future. Looking at the latest additions, it may look like they have already given up on adding utility or healer-based frames.

The closest I’ve seen to a player successfully crafting an identify for themself is a person offering all kinds of fish in the trade chat. Which is cool, but of course, outside of the core gameplay.

The reason, of course, is the ridiculous offensive power of guns like the incarnons, and the godlike power of Styanax’ and Frost’s overguard. Stuff like this undermines the meaningfulness of the many, many frames, weapons, abilities and builds that are available to us.

I feel like the game is held hostage by monkey brains who like to see big numbers on the screen, and in fear of upsetting them, the devs see no other way of bringing the game forward than to add shiny new things. Granted, these things look better than ever and in some ways the game is in a better state than ever. In other ways, it is a more hollow experience than it used to be. What are Torid users chasing when they are already wielding the power to nuke all the content the game has to offer without even making an effort?

I do hope the developers dare take back control of the game and introduce a vision that enables proper teamplay, but I’m afraid the money stream dictates that they can’t.

I love Warframe. I just wish I didn’t have to play solo to be able to enjoy the game to the fullest. My best memory from the game is probably early eidolon hunts where you’d see players actually wanting to cooperate and take on different roles. The game pushed us to it. It is just a question of design philosophy. It can happen again.

[ShogunGunshow]

As much as I agree, there is no way that they can walk the game back to 2016. The fundamental changes and MASSIVE nerf across the board to players would be enough to reduce the playing population by, like, 75%, if not more. And DE needs that money to keep the lights on.

Do I wish someone slapped the dev's hands away from the keyboard when they even thought about giving people triple digit crit increases, or when they even considered adding 90% DR to abilities? Absolutely. But this is the world we live in.

[0_The_F00l]

Yeah , warframe does lack a lot when it comes to any sort of role play.

There are of course specialised frames but you can usually do it all. It does take away a bit from engagement in my opinion.

[SneakyErvin]

It wouldnt really matter if they reduce our power heavily since the power iteself isnt the issue that results in self sustain and high damage being the main attractions. It is simply the way the game is designed that is the problem, it just isnt a role based game, never has been. So even if everything gets power nerfed (which I think the game needs) we'd still opt into the self sustaining frames and at best see them stacked if needed.

Frames like Trinity wouldnt really get helped. We have so many ways to gain energy even if they were to nerf external energy gain sources like energize, nexus, adrenaline and shards. Styanax alone is a massive step above Trinity, that wont change with a nerf to power or energy economy. And with frames like Frost that are appealing due to OG etc. would simply see a shift in Helminth options if something like the energy economy gets nerfed, since we do afterall have access to energy options within helminth. Plus both Protea and Citrine exsists as full formidable kits as is. And there is also Garuda for those that just want personal sustain.

And while Eidolons might have looked like something that incentiviced team play, it wasnt/isnt healthy content for a roster with so many frames. It resulted in a ridiculously low amount of frames actually being used and wanted for the mode. So it was really suffering the same problem as you describe with Frost and Styanax for instance. And it was really the same when it came to weapons.

Nerfs would be beneficial to make content more engaging overall, but there wouldnt be many changes in what we play, since what is currently strong would still be strong and what is currently weak would still be weak in comparison. Torid for instance would either still be a heavily used weapon, or it wouldnt and be replaced by the next weapon below it that deals with multiple mobs at once the best. Since that is just what the game incentivices. What could solve things and make more things "viable" or desired is to introduce new types of priorities in missions, such as actually heavy mobs that require realiable actual single target damage etc. Or mobs with pure immunity to certain damage types, so we need to consider things much like how you do in games like Borderlands or Diablo 2. Mobs that also provide their immunity to others aslong as they are alive, like champion units in D2/D3/Immortal and so on.

Just imagine the pins in the wheel a viral immune Eximus could result in if it was also an enemy you had to use specific single target on in order to take it out through weakpoint damage. It would shake up the meta, it would shake up in mission gameplay on the fly and so on. Which would be far more interesting than nerfs. If I worked at DE it would be one of the changes I'd implement asap for eximus units.

[Xzorn]

In terms of group roles. It was in the game until the Enemy Defense Scaling changes which they could revert most of without issue.
The team role thing just wasn't a thing in "typical" content but it was very much there at higher levels.

When I play Trinity in SP Circuit I watch as players start to hang out closer and closer to me as the level goes up. Yesterday in fact I told the group. "I got Chroma + Incarnon Torrid, someone grab a Defense frame. Lets wreck it." three of us went to level 2400. Could I tell the difference between level 300 and 2000? Nope and that's what the defense scaling changes did. They removed a key team feature of synergizing damage output. I as one frame could deal with all the killing needed.

One frame able to keep up with all the killing at that level range was unheard of outside Octavia.

They sadly never caught on that Exponential Damage Scaling was always the actual problem with scaling. Now it's far too late.
So now the only difference between lvl 200 and 900 is that 900 might one-shot you. There isn't much team building around that.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean, I think it depends on your framing. I don't necessarily disagree with anything you wrote, and I agree with quite a few smaller points, but something that very often gets overlooked with these sorts of discussions, is that often, as individuals, we all, whether we are conscious of it or not, frame ideas and conversations, in a certain way, often favourably to our own biases, preferences and agenda. Which to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it can colour conversations. Like you know, when you try to use phrasing like, how you think some other players are monkey brains and easily upset and the game is held hostage by them. Like... 

For example, I think the best weapons in Warframe, are single target bows, like the Daikyu. Actually you ever feel like people who use anything other than the Daikyu are the type to never wash their hands after the bathroom? That they like to dirt and they'll get super offended by what I just said, because they are stinky babies, and if they insist they aren't mad or upset, it really just means they are? Heh, now no one can disagree with me, or else they will look like a sensitive baby heh. Plus I was being overly general, and not accusing any individual specifically, so its alright.

You see how that sort of rhetoric can take a more sincere and genuine preference of play style and twist it into something more passively insulting, just because some people might like playing a video game differently to you? Anyway who and what do you consider meta, Warframe and weapon wise? I play a host of different Warframes, and often in high end game play (relatively speaking), like Netracells, I more than carry my weight and sometimes accidentally over perform more than I intend to. Which in a way, is complimentary to your point, because as you mention, many Warframes, are self sustaining. Citrine, Protea, Wisp can be referred to as support types, but output a lot of DPS. Yes, certain combinations of Warframes and weapons, may mean in a multiplayer setting, you might come across other players with combinations of Warframe in weapons, in certain modes and mission types, that mean you can feel left out and participating as an observer, but... there are a lot of variables involved. Including time. Like it wasn't that long ago, that Frost was considered to be in a dire state for a lot of the WF Community. He go a few shadow buffs and is actually relevant again. Mission types and difficulty matters. I use to be able to outperform Saryn's and Mesa's and Wukong's (MR30+ players going fast/hard) with Frost at his weakest... on normal Earth Exterminate missions, because I put Lavos Ice Slide on him for thematic reasons and had slightly faster movement use than them. At that difficulty, Frost just moving past them would kill them. That strat wouldn't work as well in Steel Path Survival. Back then I mean.

Is my example, an attempt to claim, that everything is fine, equal, balanced, etc, most assuredly no. Preference wise, like I said, I agree with some of your points. I do also spend a lot of time playing solo, and thats another variable to consider. Certain ideas around mandatory teams for content wouldn't be appealing to some if it blocked them from participating because they only play solo. So some conflict there. Not that I can't empathise though. For Warframe, I would be fine if certain situations, encouraged a team, but a determined enough solo player could still participate (certain Monster Hunter games may be an example with what I mean.)

[Tsukinoki]

13 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Just imagine the pins in the wheel a viral immune Eximus could result in if it was also an enemy you had to use specific single target on in order to take it out through weakpoint damage. It would shake up the meta, it would shake up in mission gameplay on the fly and so on. Which would be far more interesting than nerfs. If I worked at DE it would be one of the changes I'd implement asap for eximus units.

While I do largely agree with what you're saying here I have to disagree with this point for one simple reason:
If you aren't forced to interact with it then it'll just be skipped/ignorred  by the playerbase and won't change anything.

 

I mean think of high level Noxes or Juggernauts.
IF they spawn in a mission the players just skip them.  They don't try to kill them.  They don't interact with them at all.  They just leave them behind and ignore them because there simply isn't a reason to interact with them.

Hek, in the netracells you commonly have people trying to ignore and avoid the voidrigs that are summoned into the mission for as long as they can...and depending on team-setup that means just ignorring it until it's killed by the opening the netracell because it's simply not worth bothering with the bloated HP pool of an eximus voidrig.

You would have to find some way to force players to deal with such enemies...or they just get ignored since in most missions you simply don't have to actually interact with the enemies in a mission.

[quxier]

46 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

I do hope the developers dare take back control of the game and introduce a vision that enables proper teamplay, but I’m afraid the money stream dictates that they can’t.

What about solo players? Or not full squad? Some solo aspects are horrible e.g. void fissures. I think game should be good no matter number of your team (number).

48 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

I love Warframe. I just wish I didn’t have to play solo to be able to enjoy the game to the fullest. My best memory from the game is probably early eidolon hunts where you’d see players actually wanting to cooperate and take on different roles. The game pushed us to it. It is just a question of design philosophy. It can happen again.

That's why I've not bothered to do it solo. With group it's "easy". Doing it solo is hard.

49 minutes ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

feel like the game is held hostage by monkey brains who like to see big numbers on the screen, and in fear of upsetting them, the devs see no other way of bringing the game forward than to add shiny new things. Granted, these things look better than ever and in some ways the game is in a better state than ever. In other ways, it is a more hollow experience than it used to be. What are Torid users chasing when they are already wielding the power to nuke all the content the game has to offer without even making an effort?

Enemies should be more than big health bar. After introduction of enemy's overguard lots of abilities or methods to fight enemies were change into horrible. Why bother with e.g. Limbo? I put Cataclysm + stasis (big globe + time freeze). Enemies still can go directly to defense objective. You can make it work but there is so much to do for simple task, where some DPS just kill enemies.

22 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Nerfs would be beneficial to make content more engaging overall, but there wouldnt be many changes in what we play, since what is currently strong would still be strong and what is currently weak would still be weak in comparison. Torid for instance would either still be a heavily used weapon, or it wouldnt and be replaced by the next weapon below it that deals with multiple mobs at once the best. Since that is just what the game incentivices. What could solve things and make more things "viable" or desired is to introduce new types of priorities in missions, such as actually heavy mobs that require realiable actual single target damage etc. Or mobs with pure immunity to certain damage types, so we need to consider things much like how you do in games like Borderlands or Diablo 2. Mobs that also provide their immunity to others aslong as they are alive, like champion units in D2/D3/Immortal and so on.

Just imagine the pins in the wheel a viral immune Eximus could result in if it was also an enemy you had to use specific single target on in order to take it out through weakpoint damage. It would shake up the meta, it would shake up in mission gameplay on the fly and so on. Which would be far more interesting than nerfs. If I worked at DE it would be one of the changes I'd implement asap for eximus units.

The problem with such units is their number. If you are playing game with "normal" enemies e.g. 90% of time then switching guns (e.g. nukor to chakharr) to deal with "X unit" would be nice. However games like to slap such units when you either don't kill fast enough or you are in "endgame". In that case you are shifting from "normal mob" gameplay to "x unit gameplay". That what happened with Overguard. CC were nerfed by Overguard? Lets just go to specific unit gameplay that can deal with all content just fine (or even better).

For such suggestion to be good such units should be rare and limited. Sadly we rarely see this. Angels or Duviri Drifter gameplay is like this.

15 minutes ago, Tsukinoki said:

Hek, in the netracells you commonly have people trying to ignore and avoid the voidrigs that are summoned into the mission for as long as they can...and depending on team-setup that means just ignorring it until it's killed by the opening the netracell because it's simply not worth bothering with the bloated HP pool of an eximus voidrig.

In my case I try to kill voidrig even before spawning. It has more damage and more hp. That can be overlooked. Sure. However it's just annoying. It has slow field. And some more.

 

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, Tsukinoki said:

While I do largely agree with what you're saying here I have to disagree with this point for one simple reason:
If you aren't forced to interact with it then it'll just be skipped/ignorred  by the playerbase and won't change anything.

 

I mean think of high level Noxes or Juggernauts.
IF they spawn in a mission the players just skip them.  They don't try to kill them.  They don't interact with them at all.  They just leave them behind and ignore them because there simply isn't a reason to interact with them.

Hek, in the netracells you commonly have people trying to ignore and avoid the voidrigs that are summoned into the mission for as long as they can...and depending on team-setup that means just ignorring it until it's killed by the opening the netracell because it's simply not worth bothering with the bloated HP pool of an eximus voidrig.

You would have to find some way to force players to deal with such enemies...or they just get ignored since in most missions you simply don't have to actually interact with the enemies in a mission.

Yeah that is why they should work like champs in Diablo, so they provide their buffs and immunities to all enemies around them. Like how the Guardian kinda works now, which makes it a better choice to kill first. Obviously multiples of them wouldnt stack, but if two are present, like say a Viral eximus and a Heat eximus, and the Viral spawned first, then the Viral aura would apply to the trash and the Heat eximus would only buff itself. But when the Viral eximus dies, enemies within range of the Heat eximus would then get the heat aura. So the enemies would first be immune to viral, then as that eximus dies they'd be immune to heat. Potentially they could also provide increased DR to allies aslong as they are alive, so full immunity to a single type of damage and then DR to everything else.

I had some ideas that involved OG similar to healers, but that would screw up too much for frames designed to rely on CC. With a DR the CC frames can still make use of CC to lock down trash as they handle the priority target. Which would likely be the most fair approach since we have a wide roster of frames with everything from wet rice paper armor to a living 1 mile thick wall of hardened steel.

[SneakyErvin]

Just now, quxier said:

The problem with such units is their number. If you are playing game with "normal" enemies e.g. 90% of time then switching guns (e.g. nukor to chakharr) to deal with "X unit" would be nice. However games like to slap such units when you either don't kill fast enough or you are in "endgame". In that case you are shifting from "normal mob" gameplay to "x unit gameplay". That what happened with Overguard. CC were nerfed by Overguard? Lets just go to specific unit gameplay that can deal with all content just fine (or even better).

For such suggestion to be good such units should be rare and limited. Sadly we rarely see this. Angels or Duviri Drifter gameplay is like this.

They would follow the spawn rules of current eximus, so there wouldnt be too many at a given time. They'd practically replace current Eximus in order to make Eximus somewhat relevant. I'd even be fine if they keep Eximus as is and make these mobs actual champions that wont appear in any current content. Just add a "champion" option for all current difficulties that replace eximus with champions. Then they simply improve the loot they provide so it is slightly better than that of eximus units, but without anything exlusive so people dont need to use this bonus setting.

So you'd have Star Chart and Steel Path as toggles like now, then you have an additional toggle with Eximus and Elite Eximus on it. And whatever that toggle is set to will result in if you face Eximus or Elite Eximus in whatever content you do, from normal star chart missions to ESO, Arbitrations, Archons, SP, Dunvir, Sorties etc. 

[RLanzinger]

Some options could really help :

• Adding Play with Clans Mate only to complete the Friends/Solo options. (asked since Dojo exist...)
• Adding DPS limit [+50% / +100% /+200% / 300% / No limit] to similar to ping limit. DPS limit = DPS x (PI x AoE_Range²)

And I can throw some others :

• Adapting spawns rates quality and alert level (per Incarnon first use : more Eximus spawn+100%, +100m tracking range, +1-4 threat level against inc holder).
• Better Scaled mini boss (Random boost on spawn +Number-of-Kill %Damage / Armor / Evasion...).
• " force players to deal with such enemies..." : Miniboss Tactical Buff : +1% Damage/Armor/Evasion to all enemies per kill or second (reset on miniboss death)

[Aerikx]

SneakyErvin put it best: 

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

It is simply the way the game is designed that is the problem, it just isnt a role based game, never has been.

Warframe has NEVER been a Trinity System based game.

Quote

Context for those not used to that term:

The Trinity System is the name given to the balancing/mechanical groundwork of Role Playing games. These roles are: Tank, Healer, DPS

Warframe has always been a shooter more akin to Borderlands than any RPG. 

In effect, everyone plays the same to a degree, but abilities and specializations create a "Loose" role of sorts. 

(IE: Think BL2's Siren & Gunzerker)

Everyone moves the same, behaves the same, but functions somewhat differently. 

To HARDLOCK Warframes into roles would be disastrous and limit the ability to add new Warframes. 

Additionally, to alter the game to make roles such as this function would mean to alter gameplay and gunplay from the ground up.

In RPGs roles matter because each role makes up for others lack. To translate it into Warframe would mean frames like:

Rhino, Hildryn, and Revenant have massive pools of health/shields but deal below average damage at all times. 

Trinity, Harrow, & Oberon would deal essentially slim to no damage and be made of fine china.

Mesa, Saryn, Protea, Gauss, would still deal high DMG but have no sustain, no HP, and no defense at all. Making them drop in an instant. 

So effectively, the game's enemies would need to be returned. Instead of hordes, we'd fight small squads/groups, shooting vital points would be necessary/required, and group synergy would be absolutely mandatory. 

At this point you might as well call it:"Off Brand Destiny: At Home Edition" 

That said Warframe does have ways people fall into roles. 

To this day you have Melee Loyalists, Gun Loyalists, Crit Preference, Status Preference, etc. 

In public games you have those who stay objective focused, those who scavenge every inch of a map for loot, those who just want to kill, and those who race for extraction as if they were trying to S-Rank a Sonic the Hedgehog level.

Your identity is more of how you play not what role you play. 

I personally tend to play support oriented frames in groups, but play stealth frames when solo for example.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

1 hour ago, quxier said:

The problem with such units is their number. If you are playing game with "normal" enemies e.g. 90% of time then switching guns (e.g. nukor to chakharr) to deal with "X unit" would be nice. However games like to slap such units when you either don't kill fast enough or you are in "endgame". In that case you are shifting from "normal mob" gameplay to "x unit gameplay". That what happened with Overguard. CC were nerfed by Overguard? Lets just go to specific unit gameplay that can deal with all content just fine (or even better).

For such suggestion to be good such units should be rare and limited. Sadly we rarely see this. Angels or Duviri Drifter gameplay is like this.

They would follow the spawn rules of current eximus, so there wouldnt be too many at a given time.

The thing with eximus/nully spawn it's not so simple. If you don't kill eximus fast enough they will be more of them in one "room". If you kill more or less fast but not too fast you still have many eximus when you are going from room to room. Of course it's for higher content than simple level 10. There are always +eximus options (e.g. eximus stronghold, or SP).

They probably spawn depending on our gameplay.

[ReddyDisco]

This isn't a normal pve game, this is a power fantasy looter shooter, big numbers make happy brain chemicals and a lot of players play the game for this. You can be a dedicated trinity healer with a stug, that's your choice but don't be surprised if you get left behind in the dust by better weapons and frames in pubs. Try solo for a more controlled environment. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Not gonna happen without a dedicated pre-made. 

Almost like no one wants to play a game to heal dps anymore. Times change. I did that for years: becoming good at games only to be used as a tank or heal because casuals can't do anything but dps. 

There's plenty of other games you can play for rigid roles.

[Anti-Incarnon]

Op here. I think many valid points have been made from both sides. I think a compromise could be more mission types that at the very least require the squad to stick together and work on the same task. High level disruptions and the zariman mission types are the most fun for me these days. Sure, I wish our weapons weren’t so strong that no enemies require us to focus fire, (or that enemies that DO require the squad to do so, pop up now and then), but giving me the feeling that we’re performing as a squad would go a long way. Also would love more missions that put limitations on what we can use. I’d like to be rewarded for having 300 fully modded weapons. Guess I have a monkey brain too.

[trst]

Unfortunately this ship sailed many years ago now and nothing short of a "Warframe 2" type release/remake of the game could fix it.

Between damage, survivability, and sustain creep there's no reason for setups that specialize in one utility/supporting aspect. Even in the case of builds that provide currently useful utility to players (ie: "support" Ember who can provide bonus damage, damage resistance, and energy to allies) isn't practical since any player can have those effects in their own builds without compromising damage and/or deal damage efficiently enough that they don't need it.

 

Plus it's not something that could really be fixed with new mission types/modifiers. Since DE has been pushing the game into this direction for most of its life now the community is accustomed to such simplistic gameplay. Adding something that challenges that while still being worthwhile enough to run (a mandatory requirement for any new content nowadays) would cause friction with a considerable portion/majority of the community.

Just look back on how poorly received (and somewhat still) Eidolons were on release as that was the last addition that encouraged any level of roll coordination. But even then that aspect died thanks to powercreep in all fields with solo players able to complete multiple tri-caps in a night now.

[Waeleto]

So you want to degrade warframe and take it back to 2014 ? this is a POWER FANTASY game, you're looking for something that doesn't exist anymore and trying to bring it back will 100% kill the game, 90% of the playerbase will leave if they nerf everything and bring the necessity of teamplay like you're implying 

[Aldain]

I dunno, I think I've done well for myself as "That one Umbra player who smashes his face into everything and somehow wins in the end" if nothing else.

Not like I've ever gotten feedback on that, but it does often feel like I'm out of place in random groups playstyle wise, probably because I'm old fashioned in how I play Warframe though.

[UnstarPrime]

With respect, I think the main issue here is that you are misunderstanding what kind of game Warframe is.  While you can play Warframe multiplayer, the game is designed to be able to be played and enjoyed solo.  Thus, the game can't be designed to require allies with different roles, because those allies won't necessarily exist and you need to be able to have a successful and fun time without them.  That's what makes "optionally multiplayer" games like Warframe and Monster Hunter different from "mandatory multiplayer" games that use the tank-heal-dps trinity system.

That said, it would be hyperbolic to say that you can't play a role in Warframe.  Banshee is a glass canon, Wisp buffs her team, Oberon heals and protects.  You have a lot of different options in terms of how you want to contribute to your team.  For example:

5 hours ago, Anti-Incarnon said:

You might want to play Trinity and use a non-meta gun, but you’ll be reduced to being an observer of mayhem in high-level play.

I think if you take a step back, you'll realize that you just described what being a healer is like.  Other people are doing the offensive stuff, and you're supporting them.  And while most players bring a fairly self-sufficient build into a Warframe mission, having a Trinity in the group allows you to lean in harder than you normally would: absolutely spam those abilities because she's giving you infinite energy, be absolutely reckless because she's giving you DR and healing.  I always appreciate a Trinity in my party because it means she's the healer and that means I don't have to be my own healer.

But beyond that, if you find a group of like-minded folks, you can absolutely do the entire tank-heal-dps thing!  There are builds you can make that are extremely powerful at the cost of not being self-sufficient; get a group of friends together and form a balanced adventuring party with builds that rely on each other!

If you like having a more concrete role, I hope that helps you experience your fantasy.  But this post would be incomplete if I didn't express the fact that I'm glad Warframe doesn't force a tank-heal-dps system, because I think those systems are generally contrived and thus feel clunky.  I love MMO's, but after decades of playing with these systems, I've found that aggro systems are nonsensical, and without perfect balance healers end up feeling either like sub-par DPS.  Which is why I've come to greatly prefer games like Warframe where you can lean towards a role without being artificially limited by it.

Different strokes for different folks though!

[trst]

1 hour ago, Waeleto said:

So you want to degrade warframe and take it back to 2014 ? this is a POWER FANTASY game, you're looking for something that doesn't exist anymore and trying to bring it back will 100% kill the game, 90% of the playerbase will leave if they nerf everything and bring the necessity of teamplay like you're implying 

While you're correct that it'd push a lot of players out due to the required nerfs a roll system and power fantasies aren't mutually exclusive. Old Warframe was still a power fantasy in that you had the unstoppable tanks, the CC frames that halted all enemies in sight, and the damage frames that melted/exploded every enemy in sight.

But really if anything WF is less of a power fantasy now as all our new increases in power accomplish effectively nothing. Like how Kai mods did make melee "stronger" and yet melee performs with the exact same efficiency with those mods as they did without. Where as in old Warframe a new op weapon/mod/frame opened up entirely new playstyles and/or actually enabled pushing into higher level enemies with more ease.

[Merkranire]

Most players aren’t interested in letting your identity breathe; ask any one of those monkeybrains and they’ll tell you they love being able to do everything on their own, and make it a point to build like it

Which, y’know, fair play in solo. Not so great in multi. Like, you can still do the identity thing in Warframe, but it takes two to tango. If you and I squad up, I reckon we’d have a pretty good time

Edited February 8 by Merkranire

[(XBOX)Big Roy 324]

Controversial take.

But I think a large amount of games are going away from that. Not just Warframe.

Gaming is just simply not a community activity like it was in the past.

The ability to maintain all the roles in RPGs in order to solo is most often the most popular practice. 

I mean what's the last game you played that had dedicated roles you had to stick to? How old or new is that game?

[(PSN)robotwars7]

yeah, this isn't really a game catered to that kind of thing sadly. I get wanting to play as a healer/support role and being useful for that, but a lot of it is not just to do with our own power, it's also because modes are often designed to be centred around kills and CC, and nothing else. there'd need to be things like super-hazardous environments where you'd need a healer to go through it without dying.. but then people would probably just use Void dash anyway.

so yeah, not really feasible honestly. you're gonna be a DPS and you're gonna like it!!

 

 

[Aldain]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Big Roy 324 said:

Controversial take.

But I think a large amount of games are going away from that. Not just Warframe.

Gaming is just simply not a community activity like it was in the past.

The ability to maintain all the roles in RPGs in order to solo is most often the most popular practice. 

I mean what's the last game you played that had dedicated roles you had to stick to? How old or new is that game?

Final Fantasy 14 was the last one for me specifically (I played almost exclusively Tanks...mostly Paladin which, surprise surprise, was probably the most solo friendly tank) and that's about it.

The root problem with dedicated roles in games imo is that it's very hard to balance between complete codependence and complete self-sufficiency, take something like the Medic in TF2 as an example, pretty much a game winning role when played right, but so comically reliant on the team to not explode in seconds that playing one often feels like a punishment despite their power. A Heavy on the other hand is reasonably strong and solid when played well but amplified by a good medic for uber pushes as an example.

When a role is diluted too much and becomes a requirement you have stifling of gameplay in the same way that having no roles at all due to universal functionality like Warframe, that's why Healers in FF14 for example don't JUST heal but also contribute damage, which is controversial to some since it goes against the nature of the role in their eyes.

But the reason why Healers and Tanks are so less often played in Holy Trinity MMOs in my experience is because of that feeling where "I'm just here so the DPS can have fun", which I can understand why many would have an issue with that, especially when, as a friend from the old days of FF14 once said "You can't heal stupid" is in play.

To me I feel like gaming needs to find some balance point between codependence and self-sufficiency if it wants roles to feel better, because as it stands you either have hyper collectivism or hyper individualism with little in-between.

Edited February 8 by Aldain