Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Zendadaist]

The slow tedious marking business is my issue with it now. Sure it's nice to be able to opt out if you want to get other stuff done but stopping to jiggle the mouse around as if you're having a seizure just to get 3 marks on each mob in the time it'd take you to just shoot the mobs to death is pretty useless.

[Shad0wWatcher]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

Well i'll be damned, it almost feels like destiny called upon us to talk about Ash's bladestorm again at this time this week.

Color me superrrrr interested

Edited February 1, 2018 by Shad0wWatcher

[Yperkeimenos]

37 minutes ago, Zendadaist said:

The slow tedious marking business is my issue with it now. Sure it's nice to be able to opt out if you want to get other stuff done but stopping to jiggle the mouse around as if you're having a seizure just to get 3 marks on each mob in the time it'd take you to just shoot the mobs to death is pretty useless.

I agree , a solution would be marking targets in a cone ,in the direction Ash is facing, that can be affected by range mods. That way marking will be less tedious and slow while at the same time won't make targeting obsolete.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Yperkeimenos

[Valthryn]

6 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

i like it 10/10

[P3G4SU5]

I'd find it really useful if we could also cancel out of executing Bladestorm on marked targets by holding the power button.

I often find that I want to unmark enemies and mark other, higher priority enemies (especially when at low energy) but I'm forced to either commit to Bladestorm or run out of range the enemies to unmark them, neither of which are ideal solutions.

[Khlamydia]

On 6/14/2016 at 3:04 PM, [DE]Danielle said:

Blade Storm Changes:

• Blade Storm now has a new 'Mark Enemy' mode that is activated when you hit 4. Ash enters target mode, which you can freely target enemies with your reticule up to 3 times each for attack. Once you're satisfied, press 4 again, Blade Storm begins and all targeted enemies are attacked!
• Each mark costs Energy (15) which is affected by Mods. If a marked enemy is killed by a squad mate, you will get the energy back. 
• Marks made while invisible by any source will have a cheaper base cost (10). 
• Enemies killed by Blade Storm will dissolve, leaving no corpse behind to detect!

Please remove the marking enemies change, it makes the frame basically unusable that you have to stop combat and sit there wiggling your target marker over each and every foe like 3 times before you can attack. Just have players mark a single enemy one time and have the radius and cost of the power based on how many targets are nearby. Simple, easy, works just like any other power that targets a foe and does an aoe. You can have interactivity and still make the frame fun to use again.

Also please.... PLEASE up the duration on his invisibility, using the button every 5-8 seconds isnt fun to stay hidden.

[Guest]

This looks like an interesting opportunity to introduce better synergy into ash's kit.  The way the vid looks now, using teleport simply puts you into the full cast animation as it currently exists in game - hitting all the targets.  Perhaps we could tweak things to have stronger interplay with seeking shuriken and teleport, though.  For example: hitting an enemy with shuriken while they're under the effects of bladestorm could add an additional free mark to that target, and performing teleport on a target under the effects of bladestorm causes you to do a double-damage bladestorm attack on just that target, assisted by a shadow that replicates the attack.

Also, the cost still needs to be reduced a bit.  It's so freakin expensive.

[Aenris]

About the opt-in Ult: Awesome. I love playing Ash, but never, EVER liked his 4th. Before, it was too easy. Cheap even. Now it's too annoying to use. But the invisibility changes, the shuriken augment and the teleport are SUPER cool for the playstyle. Never felt that the ult serves to his kit. This is a step in the right direction

About the old ult and the new one: Perhaps we could have a compromise, Once BS it's activated, a certain, small radius of enemies are instantly marked with the standard energy cost. Next, you could either opt to activate Blade Storm and unleash the clones, or mark more target adding to the energy cost. After activation, you can opt to jump into the fray with your clones, or attack regularly.

[Redfeather75]

I like the change but I have to show concern at how many people want Ash's 4 to be a quick nuke.

The current 4's design is an offensive strike/invulnerability stage, in that you set up per-emptively with an energy buffer... and is refunded if you don't happen to ever need it during the skirmish. At least that aspect of it should be kept in any reworks, as it is the keystone in how ash survives 20 plus enemy waves... while still dwindling their numbers. For example; Mark em all, lay down your gas procs, go invulnerable and apply slash procs.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Redfeather75

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I absolutely love the idea of an opt in bladestorm. That way people that like the old way can still use it as before, and people that want a more active bladestorm can also do this and have a more interactive bladestorm where they can fight alongside their clones. Best of both worlds, as some people would be pissed if the stabbity stab animations were removed and the invincibility period that goes along with it was removed (cause it's cool to be able to substract yourself from the battlefield to let your shield go back up when you feel like it).

I also think it might be a good idea to rework Ash's Bladestorm augment while you're redoing the skill... I mean, all other ash augments are plain awesome, but having a bigger combo counter duration on bladestorm sucks, especially when melee combo counter mods do the same thing already. It needs to be it's own unique augment. Personally , I would love an augment where enemies that are hit by bladestorm and do not die are affected by a form of crowd control (radiation proc / blind / whatever)... That would help ash in endgame situations and would make him more of a team player / crowd control frame.

Edited February 1, 2018 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[Ardhanarishvara]

9 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

If I might make a suggestion, could you take a note from Gara and allow for melee mods to play a role in Bladestorm's damage output?

[-NyancoSensei-]

I propose about Bladestorm.

Ash himself will kill the enemy, it becomes the trigger condition of Bladestorm.
In other words, at the time of toggle on, if Ash himself kills the enemy, two clones will attack the surrounding enemies.
Ability power influences the number and power of clones that can exist simultaneously.

Edited February 1, 2018 by -NyancoSensei-

[Evanescent]

Hopefully the clones contribute to your melee combo counter and benefit from it to scale.

[DroopingPuppy]

11 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

...Oh, I didn't expect that.

 

Well, marking should be much faster, but if the problem is clear then it seems much better. And it seems that you marked all of them at a moment!

[Sasuda]

On 1/31/2018 at 11:56 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

So the big change is Ash is freed from the cinematic, which is better and means he can use weapons and move that's good. So then he's lost his invulnerability while Bladestorming.
3 would give back invulnerability?
Would you be able to opt out after opting in?
Is the little invulnerability boost the only benefit of opting in?
If we Opt in do we get anymore control over the ability?
If our speed was affected by using quick melee I think that would be fair and healthy improvement to interactivity.

Marking system either needs the cone suggestion or the instamark on cast as @Arandabido suggests, "Once BS it's activated, a certain, small radius of enemies are instantly marked with the standard energy cost." (I think both would be appropriate).

Energy costs need to be revisited, as dependency isn't synergy. like @Nazrethim says. Naturally invis now holds the role of being a helpful defensive synergy to keep Ash from taking damage and sealing weapon damage in place of moving from target to target without opting in.
Multimarking should probably be eliminated. It doesn't seem practical. Unless you could double & add marks with shuriken after being able to release more shurikens is added to shuriken.

Shuriken needs to be more usable less dependent on augment, smokescreen needs to focus on smoke more to keep it different from Loki. Teleport needs tweaks to be more usable less dependent on augment as well.

Appreciate the change for sure. It's better. It's just a small amount of better though.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Sasuda

[Borg1611]

I highly doubt these new changes will end up being that amazing. The marking system is the worst part of Bladestorm and it will remain awful and unchanged by the sounds of it. 

Just remove the marking system entirely. People hate it. Make Bladestorm have a radius. Toggle it on. Two clones start attacking random mobs within the radius. Each clone attack costs X energy. Pressing it again turns if off. You can't teleport to join in, it's just the clones attacking. 

You could then add additional bonuses to Ash such as increased melee damage (and or melee speed?) and some thematic defensive bonus. One example would be giving him blocking from all sides while bladestorm is active (and block toggled on). I think that fits the bladestorm theme pretty well. You could eventually add some fancy animation so when not blocking from the front a clone looking thing briefly appears to block from behind or something. Channeling effects on blocking would still work (and cost you energy from all the parrying).

An alternative idea to bonus melee damage/speed during bladestorm could be to make Ash teleport within a certain radius to any target out of melee range when he performs a melee attack (like an automatic rift strike if he's out of melee range of the mob, but within bladestorm range). 

Edit: Also, if this is viewed as too passive of an approach (the clone part) by the devs, change it so that instead of automatically attacking, they are tied to Ash's actions. Every time Ash performs a melee attack or uses another ability, a clone will attack a random target within Bladestorm's range. It could also include another clone attack after reflecting so much damage via channeled blocking (parrying) while Bladestorm is up if that's not too passive. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Borg1611

[Bouldershoulder]

@[DE]Rebecca All those grineers would be killed in a second by teammates with punch-through weapons or some maiming atterax..

[Orfeusz]

15 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are taking a look at Ash, specifically his Bladestorm - check out some WIP gameplay here:
 

 

This is very nice to hear.. but ash is slash based warfame. After DMG changes (slash nerf) he will also be nerfed :(

DE pls keep this in mind ! 

Another thing is.. why not just change his current bladestorm (or his passive) to ability which provides him shadow clone /  shadow colnes ? For example (option with one clone) - clone would copy every action taken (casted abilities, movements, melee attacks) by ash after certain amount of time (something like a few seconds later).. but I guess a bit more than just one clone could make this ability feel cool for players.

I thought also about changing his bladestorm to REAL bladestorm ( a combo between his first and fourth power). Bladestorm would release a literal strom of ash's shurikens around him, the number of shurikens could be increased by charging bladestrom with each "Shurikens" (first ability) cast. OH.. and make the shurikens  spilt up to three times whenever shurikens hit enemies or walls (with bounce effect).. auto seek-out for enemies could also be a thing. DONE

I hope that my suggestions will help ^__^

@[DE]Rebecca

Edited February 1, 2018 by Orfeusz

[Crousere]

Looks like a nice improvement. It's still too slow if you have the usual AHK script+maiming strike+whip users as your teammates. 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I highly doubt these new changes will end up being that amazing. The marking system is the worst part of Bladestorm and it will remain awful and unchanged by the sounds of it. 

Just remove the marking system entirely. People hate it. Make Bladestorm have a radius. Toggle it on. Two clones start attacking random mobs within the radius. Each clone attack costs X energy. Pressing it again turns if off. You can't teleport to join in, it's just the clones attacking. 

You could then add additional bonuses to Ash such as increased melee damage (and or melee speed?) and some thematic defensive bonus. One example would be giving him blocking from all sides while bladestorm is active (and block toggled on). I think that fits the bladestorm theme pretty well. You could eventually add some fancy animation so when not blocking from the front a clone looking thing briefly appears to block from behind or something. Channeling effects on blocking would still work (and cost you energy from all the parrying).

An alternative idea to bonus melee damage/speed during bladestorm could be to make Ash teleport within a certain radius to any target out of melee range when he performs a melee attack (like an automatic rift strike if he's out of melee range of the mob, but within bladestorm range). 

Edit: Also, if this is viewed as too passive of an approach (the clone part) by the devs, change it so that instead of automatically attacking, they are tied to Ash's actions. Every time Ash performs a melee attack or uses another ability, a clone will attack a random target within Bladestorm's range. It could also include another clone attack after reflecting so much damage via channeled blocking (parrying) while Bladestorm is up if that's not too passive. 

This is kinda a l good idea me likey

[DroopingPuppy]

3 hours ago, Borg1611 said:

I highly doubt these new changes will end up being that amazing. The marking system is the worst part of Bladestorm and it will remain awful and unchanged by the sounds of it. 

Just remove the marking system entirely. People hate it. Make Bladestorm have a radius. Toggle it on. Two clones start attacking random mobs within the radius. Each clone attack costs X energy. Pressing it again turns if off. You can't teleport to join in, it's just the clones attacking. 

You could then add additional bonuses to Ash such as increased melee damage (and or melee speed?) and some thematic defensive bonus. One example would be giving him blocking from all sides while bladestorm is active (and block toggled on). I think that fits the bladestorm theme pretty well. You could eventually add some fancy animation so when not blocking from the front a clone looking thing briefly appears to block from behind or something. Channeling effects on blocking would still work (and cost you energy from all the parrying).

An alternative idea to bonus melee damage/speed during bladestorm could be to make Ash teleport within a certain radius to any target out of melee range when he performs a melee attack (like an automatic rift strike if he's out of melee range of the mob, but within bladestorm range). 

Edit: Also, if this is viewed as too passive of an approach (the clone part) by the devs, change it so that instead of automatically attacking, they are tied to Ash's actions. Every time Ash performs a melee attack or uses another ability, a clone will attack a random target within Bladestorm's range. It could also include another clone attack after reflecting so much damage via channeled blocking (parrying) while Bladestorm is up if that's not too passive. 

Yes, we should keep in mind that the marking part is the worst part....

[Ham_Grenabe]

Yeah, I just mentioned in another thread that it should just have a radius, affect A/B/C/D enemies based on rank, and have no marking.* I personally would like to see a clone appear behind every enemy to be killed simultaneously, and perform a single finisher move (rather than the ninja dancing around they currently do), and then vanish in a puff of smoke. No leaping around, just "8 clones appear out of thin air behind the enemies, execute them, and then vanish." 

Even cooler (though...weird) would be for say, two of the enemies in the room to suddenly "uncloak" and reveal themselves as Ash's ninja clones, kill their former comrades, and vanish in a puff of smoke. Masters of Disguise that ninjas are, after all. 

 

* But DE for the love of God please port that marking system to thrown weapons like glaives. 

Edited February 1, 2018 by Ham_Grenabe

[Anthraxicus]

5 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

Even cooler (though...weird) would be for say, two of the enemies in the room to suddenly "uncloak" and reveal themselves as Ash's ninja clones, kill their former comrades, and vanish in a puff of smoke. Masters of Disguise that ninjas are, after all. 

 

* But DE for the love of God please port that marking system to thrown weapons like glaives. 

 

That would pretty cool actually. 

[Seraphim_Okashira]

If this change does not bring with it another clone, it is yet another nerf to Ash's blade storm. Not having the extra clone means that you have to spend extra energy to teleport into the fight just so you can have the same DPS pre-change. Again, if that is going to be the case then I say thank you but no. 

[Shad0wWatcher]

So after watching that video more times than i should've, but it poses a question...does it look like it's going to be fun? Is it gonna be a fun "new" way to kill your enemies? I'll hold off on answering that myself till after i see more of it but what about you guys?