Jump to content

Oberon Revisited: Prime Time Surprise and Next Steps!


Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Greetings, Tenno!

Last week on Prime Time #161, we treated viewers with the first in-game look at Oberon’s (WIP) reworked powers as mentioned by Scott on Devstream #90. 

Missed the stream? No problem, the main changes that were showcased:

Smite: 

  • Damage from projectiles emitted from the enemy scales based on enemy level.

Hallowed Ground: 

  • Hallowed Ground is now more of an 'arc' shape (Range Mods create a wider/longer arc).
  • Added a Status Chance that is affected by Strength Mods.
  • Adjusted damage and ranges.

Renewal:

  • Increased casting animation speed.
  • Changed to an expanding wave of healing instead of a projectile. 
  • Energy drain starts once wave hits allies, not leading up to it.
  • Allies on Hallowed Ground get an Armor buff for the entire heal process. Once heal is finished the Armor buff is on a timer (affected by Duration).

Reckoning:

  • Enemies with a Radiation Status Chance will now take bonus damage from Reckoning.
  • Enemies standing on Hallowed Ground will receive Armor debuffs (affected by Strength).


We asked for your feedback and you delivered!

After compiling and discussing the prominent feedback, it was clear that our proposed Renewal rework was not enough to bring Oberon fresh justice.

The most prominent feedback:

  • Renewal expires before the duration is up.

With this largely suggested feedback in mind, the team has made further tweaks to Oberon’s Renewal. As of right now, Oberon’s Renewal rework now also includes:

  • Renewal doesn’t stop healing when the target ally is at full Health. It will continue to heal as long as it is active.

Your feedback is appreciated!

Megan, would it be possible to change hallowed ground from "an arc" to a circular area (maxed without mods) to an area of 10-12 meters? I ask this because it is a little easier to plan with tactically. If you did, the Augment mod Hallowed Eruption ( renamed to Hallowed Path?) could be altered to behave like Nyx's Augment Assimilate, in so far as being able to move with it. If it granted status removal for allies, a flat armor buff of 150 and a damage reflection of perhaps no more than 30% (of the caster) at the cost of 50% movement speed and becoming a toggled ability with climbing energy drain I believe it would be a better fit.

Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Warning: This may come across as a little harsh, but that's to expect when you are hoping for a good and helpful rework from professional developers...

So, Renewal. Well, that's a nice tiny little step in the right direction, but what about Renewal's weird inverse duration which interferes with its bleedout extension and augment?

Or that Hallowed Ground is a very weak defensive ability, with neither good enough DR for allies nor good enough CC for enemies (although Radiation procs might help)?

The extreme radiation-proc overlap?

The overuse of forced synergies?

The passive being changed from situational into a pidgeonholing one (which you haven't even mentioned btw)?

Are you guys really content with THAT?

^This. Since he's finally getting reworked, he needs to get reworked. Synergies aren't everything. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, UvBenServed said:

Since we already get an armor buff while standing on hallowed ground, I'd prefer something a bit more unique to Oberon's kit for this synergy. Such as energy regen or increased travel speed/distance for the renewal wave.

Other than that, everything sounds pretty good to me. Looking forward to whenever this ends up coming out.

I think you interpret it wrong. The synergy allows ally to get the armor buff without standing on Hallowed Ground after touching the heal wave.

Edited by LogaMC1995
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Azamagon said:

Warning: This may come across as a little harsh, but that's to expect when you are hoping for a good and helpful rework from professional developers...

So, Renewal. Well, that's a nice tiny little step in the right direction, but what about Renewal's weird inverse duration which interferes with its bleedout extension and augment?

Or that Hallowed Ground is a very weak defensive ability, with neither good enough DR for allies nor good enough CC for enemies (although Radiation procs might help)?

The extreme radiation-proc overlap?

The overuse of forced synergies?

The passive being changed from situational into a pidgeonholing one (which you haven't even mentioned btw)?

Are you guys really content with THAT?

Azamagon does bring up a good point about renewal, i had completely forgotten the awkwardness of the duration on it. since the new power setup is separate from the frames health pool, it should work where the drain is effected by both eff and duration and that the direct duration of the ability is effected positively.

 radiation overlapping is fine by me, honestly he will synergize really well with some teams

oberon is, by my thought pattern, a caster biased frame and the synergies will be there to complement using power combos like one might usually

on the side of the passive......not a good example.....but......vauban's passive.....this proposed oberon passive is over the moon better.

 

i would genuinely like for him to have more synergy between his powers, a jack of all, master of none....using all powers in combos with them all synergizing would be amazing

(more synergy ftw)

Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

 

  • Renewal doesn’t stop healing when the target ally is at full Health. It will continue to heal as long as it is active.

Your feedback is appreciated!

The fact they listened to feedback on Renewal is great, even though pretty much every rework ever had stated 'please make this thing last for its full duration.'

So now let's think of Renewal not as 'heal this guy who's almost dead.' It is now 'h crap there is a huge crowd of enemies swarming us. I'm going to pop renewal so my team has a little bit of breathing room.' In final fantasy terms it's Trinity is casting Curaja after the fact, but Oberon is casting Regen before the fact. Regen will not save you if an enemy does disgustingly high damage, but against swarms of chip damage will be mitigated to an extent.

This alone gives me a reason to be OK with the range nerf since Oberon spamming 3 with infinite range would be pretty OP. Add in how Phoenix Renewal works (pre rework) and it becomes a 'nobody dies ever' button. That can be seen as Too Good. Would i like infinite range? Yes. Can I understand why it isn't infinite anymore? Hey if this turns into Oberon having a specific use where he isn't seen as a worse trinity due to now having a distinct mechanic.

I am happy with this change. Thank you for listening and while I would like other changes to happen. This is the big change I wanted to happen.

Edit: NOw can we have Oberon's heal relationship to duration be sensical now that it can be thought of less as a burst heal and more as a preemptive regen? Being able to drip feed health over a loner period of time based on long duration is something we will want now and will increase his usefulness even if a trinity is inthe party.

Edited by MarrikBroom
Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Naith said:

Someone on the forums suggested Hallowed Ground sprouting earth's new flowers and vegetation etc. for its graphics effect. Much like Nidus.

Sounds really neat and would show off one of the nice aspects of the earth rework. Is that something that could potentially be added?

he's a paladin!!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great Aspects of This Rework

I've been told that before you say something critical, you should always include (or begin with) something kind, in order to make sure the subject is more receptive of your feedback.

  • Smite deals scaling damage. This is excellent because it gives you reason to actually use the first ability; generally a lot of the older frames have their first abilities "fall off" because of their heavy damage focus and low or repetitive utility. It puts some distinction between his 1 and his 4.
  • Hallowed Ground now covers a larger area. The strip was just hard to work around, and cost the player a lot of energy trying to cover areas. It still isn't perfect, but it's a huge step forward.
  • Renewal has a faster cast time. This was about the only reason I considered using Natural Talent on him, so that's good.
  • Renewal no longer consumes energy when it's not actually healing targets. This was just penalizing players for circumstances beyond their control.
  • Renewal no longer ends the instant the target is fully healed. Now players can reasonably pre-cast this effect to help an ally, with the travel time being the main concern.

Questions About This Rework

Generally speaking, a lot of reworks tend to... forget to mention things during the hype. Usually negative things, or specifics that would affect the use of the ability.
For instance, Frost's initial rework hyped Freeze as becoming "Ice Blast", and that it was becoming more like Fireball - only to end up as a small buff to its damage. The recent Limbo rework didn't mention that Banish can no longer affect targets on the opposite side of the Rift from you.
These things tend to blindside us.
This is sometimes because they come late in the process (like with the deteriorating Shadows of the Dead change), but I want to make sure we're all on the same page and have no other surprises or miscommunications for when it comes out, so that concerns aren't drowned out by people being hyped.

  • Does Hallowed Ground still grant armor to targets presently standing within it, without Renewal's effects? Or is the armor boost now limited to their interaction?
  • Do Hallowed Ground and Renewal's armor bonuses stack? If so, is the effect additive or multiplicative?
  • Do both Hallowed Ground and Renewal grant a bonus percentage of the target's armor (as Hallowed Ground does now), or a flat amount?
  • Does Renewal's expanding wave have a maximum range? Or does it cover the entire map like the projectiles do?
  • Does Renewal still have a bonus to bleedout duration?
  • Does Reckoning still apply a Radiation proc of its own to targets?
  • Is there anything else being taken away from abilities in order to streamline their effects?
  • How are his base stats impacted? Even his passive isn't listed up there.
  • Has his WIP passive (reduced cooldowns on Kubrow/Kavat abilities) changed?
  • It was mentioned that his augments may also receive changes. Any news on that?

Concerns Specific to This Rework

  • Reckoning provides bonus damage to victims of a Radiation proc.
    • How does this count as "synergy"? If Reckoning still has a chance to apply a Radiation proc on its own, then this just rewards players for spamming Reckoning (as they are wont to do with ultimates), not necessarily for combining their powers. (In Saryn's case, what almost made this work for Miasma was that it relied on procs provided by her other abilities.)
    • How does this count as "scaling"? 100% bonus damage is just the value of a second cast of Reckoning. If the damage of 1 Reckoning falls off, the damage of 2 will fall off at the same rate! This only makes it a way to kill targets maybe 10 levels higher than it can now. (This is a big concern with the current state of Miasma, as well.)
  • Reckoning now removes armor from enemies standing in Hallowed Ground.
    • Oberon's main damage type is Radiation - which receives a bonus against armored targets. Doesn't this end up biting him?
    • Frost, Mag and Nekros can all remove target armor outright; Mag, Ash, Banshee, Trinity and Hydroid also get augments that allow them to peel off target armor. Doesn't this addition seem derivative?
  • Renewal now is an expanding wave of effect.
    • If the particle wave just keeps getting bigger and bigger until it covers the entire map, won't this impact performance? 
    • Continuing from Question #4 above, if the wave has a maximum range, isn't this a nerf? Do Oberon or Renewal need a nerf?
  • Oberon's passive has changed; last stated placeholder was to reduce the cooldown of Kubrow and Kavat abilities.
    • We've just shifted from a passive that was very niche and potentially level-breaking... to one that now only benefits the player for using a specific class of pet. Arguably the same could be said for passives like Excalibur's or Mesa's, but they can summon weapons that will allow them to benefit from their passives. How does his new passive interact with his kit, in any way?
  • Hallowed Ground has interactions with two other abilities in his kit.
    • The synergy with Hallowed Ground is very forced, and not intuitive.
    • The fact that Hallowed Ground affects an area of unusual shape, will make the interactions between the other abilities unwieldy.
  • When Saryn's kit was reworked to make her dependent on the interaction between her abilities rather than spamming just one, she needed to have a bonus to personal energy generation provided later on in order to make this sustainable. This is why forced dependence is bad, folks.

Still Not Addressed By This Rework

  • Oberon's abilities are really cluttered, from several small effects (like status procs) being tacked on in lieu of fewer big benefits - and if we assume the abilities in the opening post are coming to him wholesale, that issue is just getting worse. His kit doesn't just need to be more effective, it needs to be streamlined for ease-of-use; otherwise, his kit will be dependent on the wiki.
    • Reckoning applies three different types of CC to targets - Knockdown, Blind, Radiation status - but they're all applied simultaneously, which seems a bit overkill. The Blind is the only one affected by his Duration, so no matter what, you get 3 seconds of Knockdown and 8 seconds of Confusion. If you have a high Duration, the Blind effect dips into the Radiation proc and prevents enemies from fighting each other; if you have the base Duration or lower, the Blind is virtually nonexistent under the Knockdown, especially since the Blind doesn't even open enemies up to Finishers while the Knockdown does.
  • Hallowed Ground presently grants mitigation to allies in the form of a bonus percentage of their own armor. This means that frames with low armor get very little benefit in terms of armor gained (ie Zephyr jumps from 15 armor to a whopping 22 - a gain of 2% mitigation), and frames with high armor no longer require the protection it provides (because mitigation from armor plateaus after a certain point). Even Oberon only receives around 9% bonus mitigation from it before Strength mods. It makes the bonus very weak, especially since it only applies to health and cannot be stacked.
  • Renewal's healing has a maximum Duration with inverted Duration scaling - but aside from the armor bonus from this rework, all of the side benefits from Renewal depend on the healing being active. The bleedout duration bonus it grants is increased by Duration, but a high Duration will also reduce the window during which you can receive the bleedout bonus. If you reduce your Duration to extend the healing uptime so that you can receive the bleedout bonus, then the bleedout bonus itself is diminished. The inverted Duration and bleedout bonus from Renewal simply cannot coexist.
    • Likewise, this inverted scaling also harms the window of the Phoenix Renewal augment.
  • The health orbs from Reckoning are dependent not only on finishing off the target, but on an extra layer of RNG as well. As mentioned above, Reckoning really doesn't have scaling damage, so it's unlikely that it will even finish off targets in the first place, much less produce health orbs.
  • Ultimately, it feels like the devs are unsure what Oberon is, and what direction to take him - case in point, Reckoning receiving changes that have already been done in other reworks nearly word for word. We keep hearing that he's a Paladin (even advertised as such), but then he gets things like "whimsical" bouncing projectiles, fairy wisps, or a passive that has nothing to do with his kit, because he's also a Druid and the Fairy King. It wouldn't matter if he were all three archetypes aesthetically if he was just one in terms of gameplay, but the fact that he tries to cram multiple roles into one kit ends up diminishing the values of each.
    • Example: Renewal improves to become a burstier heal; its original dispersion on full-health targets called back to a Paladin's Lay on Hands skill, dating back to D&D. However, the heal-over-time aspect attempts to delve into regeneration and regrowth abilities classically provided by Druids. Until this rework, this combination ultimately ended with Oberon getting the worst of both worlds: a delayed healing effect that fell off on max-health targets.
    • As long as Oberon attempts to fulfill multiple roles, that means there's no place for other frames with designs that would fulfill those roles better. If Oberon is both a Paladin and a Druid, there's no place for a new Paladin or Druid Warframe that concentrates on just one aspect.
      • I remind you: Oberon has always been advertised as a Paladin. Some of us are still waiting on one.
Edited by Archwizard
Corrected a calculation I wrote about Oberon's bonus mitigation from HG
Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

<snip> Add in how Phoenix Renewal works (pre rework) and it becomes a 'nobody dies ever' button. That can be seen as Too Good.

Doesn't PR have a team-wide cooldown? like 1 min or something? Edit Wiki says 90 seconds.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how's even a infinite range single revive (per minute at most) too good?

-----

11 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

<snip>

Superlative post, as usual.

-----

3 hours ago, Naizuri said:

What does Rad procs have to do with paladins...

Honestly, first time I saw Oberon's description and skillset, I thought 'Oh, he's Toxic Avenger'.
 

Edited by Chroia
Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

he's a paladin!!!!

Soooo? 

Besides that, he isn't just a simple and straight forward paladin with his design either. Reasonable druid theme going on too, I might add.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Naith said:

Soooo? 

Besides that, he isn't just a simple and straight forward paladin with his design either. Reasonable druid theme going on too, I might add.

Cosmetically, he draws from druid stuff, but every ability in his kit, apart from his cockeyed passive, is paladin.  He just does a really piss-poor job of it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

Greetings, Tenno!

Last week on Prime Time #161, we treated viewers with the first in-game look at Oberon’s (WIP) reworked powers as mentioned by Scott on Devstream #90. 

Missed the stream? No problem, the main changes that were showcased:

Smite: 

  • Damage from projectiles emitted from the enemy scales based on enemy level.

Hallowed Ground: 

  • Hallowed Ground is now more of an 'arc' shape (Range Mods create a wider/longer arc).
  • Added a Status Chance that is affected by Strength Mods.
  • Adjusted damage and ranges.

Renewal:

  • Increased casting animation speed.
  • Changed to an expanding wave of healing instead of a projectile. 
  • Energy drain starts once wave hits allies, not leading up to it.
  • Allies on Hallowed Ground get an Armor buff for the entire heal process. Once heal is finished the Armor buff is on a timer (affected by Duration).

Reckoning:

  • Enemies with a Radiation Status Chance will now take bonus damage from Reckoning.
  • Enemies standing on Hallowed Ground will receive Armor debuffs (affected by Strength).


We asked for your feedback and you delivered!

After compiling and discussing the prominent feedback, it was clear that our proposed Renewal rework was not enough to bring Oberon fresh justice.

The most prominent feedback:

  • Renewal expires before the duration is up.

With this largely suggested feedback in mind, the team has made further tweaks to Oberon’s Renewal. As of right now, Oberon’s Renewal rework now also includes:

  • Renewal doesn’t stop healing when the target ally is at full Health. It will continue to heal as long as it is active.

Your feedback is appreciated!

Check DM's please

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Naith said:

Someone on the forums suggested Hallowed Ground sprouting earth's new flowers and vegetation etc. for its graphics effect. Much like Nidus.

Sounds really neat and would show off one of the nice aspects of the earth rework. Is that something that could potentially be added?

INB4 Lowers graphics because low end hardware ;-;

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hallowed Ground shpuld not use flowers. It's supposed to ve purifying fire.

And Renewal shouldn't be a wave. RIP saving allies across rooms.

Will write something more properly when it's not 5AM.

*sigh*

Edited by NightmareT12
Link to post
Share on other sites

scaling the Worms isn't unwelcome, but it always felt like there weren't enough Worms in the first place. i recommend also increasing the base number of Worms.
however like many other Abilities, the cost reduction for repeated casts in a short time window should be applied to Smite.

general improvement to Hallowed Ground, no mechanical improvements perse, mostly QoL stuff, not much to say. i like the middleground of an 'arc' shape (ala Ice Wave i presume), as it tries to please both that like the rectangle shape and those that want the usual circle/sphere shape.
Hallowed Ground would significantly benefit from having a decent Slow to it though, so Enemies stay on it a bit longer. like 30%.
also Hallowed Eruption had better not get changed as it's a great alternative Playstyle Augment, giving different functionality rather than Powercreep

Renewal has some minor QoL improvements, and since you say that Renewal won't cancel on full Health, it could finally be a useful Ability.
that also means the proposed synergy with Hallowed Ground will actually be useful/usable.
though 'expanding sphere' Abilities have limited Range while Renewal doesn't currently....

 

Reckoning dealing increased Damage to Enemies under Radiation Status is stupid. Reckoning applies Radiation Status, so if you're thinking this adds some Synergy... it doesn't.
it means always cast Reckoning twice because the second cast gets Bonus Damage.
l i t e r a l l y  e n c o u r a g e d  t o  s p a m  r e c k o n i n g  (more than currently, but removing Radiation Status from Reckoning isn't a solution, don't do that)

i get you want to encourage hitting Enemies with some other Abilities before using Reckoning, but Oberon has 3 Abilities with an offensive nature to them, and all 3 will apply Radiation Status.
you're going to have to differentiate for this type of Bonus in some other way.
perhaps Enemies that have been hit by one of the Worms takes increased Damage from Reckoning (bonus points if the scaling factor of the Worms can impart a bit of scaling to Reckoning - that would be a satisfying interaction and even would allow Reckoning to make use of the Health Orb generation feature)? and... Enemies on Hallowed Ground make a larger Blind Effect perhaps (like 2x Range)?

Edited by taiiat
Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Archwizard said:
  • Hallowed Ground presently grants mitigation to allies in the form of a bonus percentage of their own armor. This means that frames with low armor get very little benefit in terms of armor gained (ie Zephyr jumps from 15 armor to a whopping 22 - a gain of 2% mitigation), and frames with high armor get little benefit in terms of mitigation gained (because mitigation from armor plateaus after a certain point). Even Oberon only receives around 22% bonus mitigation from it. It makes the bonus very weak, especially since it only applies to health and cannot be stacked.

Quick correction. Armor scaling never falls off. A 99.5% DR to 99.75% DR is huge. If a frame were to take 1000 points of damage, then a 99.5% reduction is 1000 * (1-.995) = 5 points of damage, while a 99.75% reduction is 1000 * (1-.9975) = 2.5, or half the damage of before, meaning that that frame has twice the EHP with a 99.75% DR as opposed to a 99.5% DR. 

Edited by SquidTheSid
Link to post
Share on other sites
42 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Another thought.

Have Oberon standing on Hallowed Ground be what dictates if Renewal gives an armor buff rather than the other team members.

This would be ideal. Alternatively, allow Renewal to "supercharge" existing Hallowed Grounds that the wave touches, so it gives allies the Armor buff anytime they walk on one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...