[DELAYED] Damage 2.5 Part 1: Physical Damage

[AttackBacon]

Another question I have is will Slash scaling from damage be increased? If it is not, then only the most Slash focused of weapons will get any use out of the proc and even they will be seeing an effective nerf, unless they are 100% Slash based. I'm very concerned that a general reduction in power is going to hurt build diversity, as we will be forced further towards weapons and frames that can deal with high level Grineer. Right now Slash is propping up a large selection of weapons that otherwise would be completely unable to hang with the serious "meta" weapons. A broad nerf to Slash would also paradoxically reinforce the supremacy of status weapons (outside of frames that can reliably strip armor or premade groups with Corrosive Projection) as the only weapon-based solution to armor becomes Corrosive procs. 

[EmberStar]

53 minutes ago, mrfluffydeath said:

Sometimes people just don't understand that Death is the ultimate in damage mitigation. What's the point in ragdolling an enemy if you can kill it? What's the point in reducing the amount of damage an enemy does if it's dead? A corpse does zero damage. Well. Unless it's a Nox.

Slash will still be king, just now the meta will be that weapons without massive base Slash will be kind of useless.  Ragdolling enemies is actually kind of a pain, especially if you've got a sniper and need consistent headshots.  Those are hard enough on enemies that are standing up and facing you - they're pretty close to impossible on a lot of things once they flop over.  And yea, puncture is still junk.  Because an enemy that just exploded into bits from slash damage has 100% damage reduction on their attacks.  Because they're dead.  And at really crazy high levels, 75% of five times as much damage as it would take to one-shot non tank frames is still enough to kill them instantly.

Oh well.  Maybe they'll do something with the elemental damage types so that magnetic isn't almost completely useless against NPCs.  That would be nice.

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 2 minutes, DecadeX a dit :

The only change they stated to the way it calculated damage is that it only uses the slash damage now. So it's not 48, it's 35% of 48, so it's 16.8.

They said it's the total slash damage instead of the 35% of your total damage on a dev stream. 

Fun fact, even if they nerfed it like you calculated it, people will still pick it because it's still better than the other two even after these changes.

[Brasten]

Slash - Still the best element but weapon choice is reduced to only High Slash weapon. Big nerfs to Weapon Stances with auto-procs. It is best because it kills. Dead enemies do 0 damage and need 0 CC. Slash also bypasses the absurd amount of damage reduction that in use. The fact that it stacks is not really important. Toxin damage also stacks, but it doesn't bypass Armor DR so it isn't on Slash's level.

Impact - Blast 2.0, with more things still resistant to it, and makes it harder to keep enemies in range. Problems will come to Impact Snipers: Vectis (Prime), Vulkar (Wraith), Rubico.  Rag-dolling enemies + successive head shots = not happening.

Puncture - minor % adjustments against level 60, 80, 100+ isn't going to be felt when many enemy shots are still in One Shot range.

None of this address the long standing scaling issues, both on the Player side and Enemy side. How about we do the actual thing and look at the Damage Values, scaling calculators, and the whole mess you've put off addressing for years (and has only gotten worse). We need solutions that keep frames like Ember from one-shoting everything below level 30, while keeping enemies from one-shoting us beyond level 100. And the whole range of issues in-between.

[TheGrimCorsair]

At first blush:

Impact procs are going to troll-y, especially for weapons that fire quickly and/or depend on headshots.

Puncture procs (from weapons) are still mostly pointless as reducing the damage output of a single enemy by 10%-75% in a game where we regularly face a dozen enemies or more at a time is very seldomly actually going to improve the likelihood of you surviving any amount of time.

Slash procs will still be far stronger than their counterparts, however, the weapons that can make use of them are going to drop dramatically. If a weapon doesn't already do a large amount of Slash damage, then they become much less valuable. The new Hunter's Munitions mod will only be useful on weapons with innately high Slash damage and crit chance, and wasted elsewhere.

More critically, though, is how this will affect melee weapons, as part of what balances them when drawn is the status effects their stances force, bleeds in particular. Elemental melee weapons are going to far pretty far behind IPS weapons, regardless of stats, due to the way Slash procs can be stacked and amplified. For example, in the Whip Sword category, both Jat Kusar and Lacera (both pure elemental damage) will run far behind Mios when using the Defiled Snapdragon stance due its ability to apply many Slash procs and Mios having a fairly large amount of Slash damage.

[BjornTheBard]

The end of warframe has begun :( thx DE u rly overdid it this time :/

[ShadowFel]

So...Hunter Munitions will now only find use on weapons that are already heavily slash...which don't need it because they already have a high chance of proc'ing slash?  Well, it was a nice breath of fresh air for pure elemental and non-slash crit primaries for a short while.  I guess maybe it will find a place on...Dex Sybaris, and pretty much nothing else now.  I'm aware that weapons like Amprex and Synapse aren't awful, but the ability to proc slash helped with their ability to deal with heavily armored targets quite a lot, as heavily armored targets are where crit-based weapons tend to struggle a lot.  And I guess that pure elemental melee weapons that have stance procs won't actually gain any benefits from the stance procs?  It's a good system until you consider how much it hurts pure elemental weapons (especially pure elemental melees), or other weapons that have built-in procs for damage types that they don't have a lot of (the rapier class will be very sad). 

Also, single target damage output reduction still isn't nearly as appealing as temporarily preventing all damage output with a stagger/ragdoll, or just killing enemies faster with armor/shield ignoring damage.  I still don't see puncture being as valued as its peers in this new system.

This new system also leaves weapons that have a mix of physical damage types at a disadvantage, as they're less likely to stack their procs, and their procs will be weaker than more focused weapons.  Most even distribution weapons already have relatively low usage, and this change will not help them climb out of the hole they're in.

I'm afraid that this change will likely cause people to just flock more towards slash-heavy weapons, which already see much higher usage in general than impact or puncture weapons.  If you're changing how our damage works, I think that you also need to look at how enemies take damage, and how and why the current enemy armor system makes people value corrosive and slash damage so much more than other damage types.

[Jabett]

Just now, Hayabusa2461 said:

The end of warframe has begun :( thx DE u rly overdid it this time :/

People thought it was over with vivergate too, DE will probably get enough hate to revert changes again, or it will be changed and turn out better than expected 

[Dragazer]

5 hours ago, Ashendal said:

This whole change doesn't fix the root cause of WHY people are choosing certain damage types to run on their weapons. If anything this change just further increases that divide and now lowers the total pool of "viable" weapons for any content above level 50 which includes sorties. If the weapon doesn't have a majority in Slash the weapon is not going to be taken. If you thought people overused the Tigris Prime and Galatine Prime before, be prepared to see nothing more than that.

Scott, you need to understand that the armor scaling formula is the issue here. Shield's are not even close to scaling in any meaningful way when it comes to damage mitigation because it's the same formula for Player and NPC and you can literally run anything, including your anti-armor setup, with no downsides because of that. If anything the anti-armor setup would be even better against Corpus and Infested because Slash+Viral will melt them just as fast, if not faster, than an armored target like a Grineer. You're ignoring the main issue with these changes, armor scaling, and just making tweaks that will do absolutely nothing to increase build diversity and instead further limit player choice if you do anything that isn't the star chart, and even on the start chart for planet like Sedna.

You need to start over. Scrap these changes and address the problem that they don't. Look at armor scaling and shield resistances. Until those two are actually brought into some semblance of decent, armor being brought down from infinite scaling leading to millions upon millions of effective health and shields being a joke, any tweaks you make to the damage types is meaningless. If you make tweaks to the armor and shield scaling after this you're just going to have to then do double work and go back and rebalance procs because things will be out of wack again. Don't do double work, do work ONCE and do it RIGHT. Scrap these changes and let Kora be a little wonky with her stat choice with everyone going slash until after the new year when you have time to actually do the work and redo the armor scaling formula. Stop ignoring the problem and actually fix it please.

Funny this reworks purpose was supposed to get people to use damage types other than slash but has now ensured people must use a slash dominant weapon to combat how ridiculous the armor scaling is.

They literally missed the core issue on why slash builds are so popular.

It boggles my mind how they cant make such a simple connection

[DecadeX]

3 minutes ago, SSI_Seraph said:

They said it's the total slash damage instead of the 35% of your total damage on a dev stream. 

Fun fact, even if they nerfed it like you calculated it, people will still pick it because it's still better than the other two even after these changes.

And here they stated it's only change is that it's only using slash now not that it's just taking all of it. I don't care what they may have said when asked on a devstream. I care what went into a planned and proofread write up.

[Redeye]

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

Impact now serves as a great means of crowd control. Got a Corpus Tech threatening your excavator?

A corpus tech doesn't treathen. It obliterates. Even more so since the excavator has the same health/shields amount regardless of the ennemy level. Either way I'm eager to test IPS 2.0. Even if I'm kind of worried about slash changes. As long as you make the other physical damage types relevant, I guess it'll be ok.

[Hansha]

Personally, i don't want to uncontrollably ragdoll enemies i shoot. Also you say "slash is remaining the same" a few times BUT it seems like your not being very honest. Just be up front and say "after changes to how status procs work slash will now do only the slash amount instead of total dmg making slash SIGNIFICANTLY less effective on many weapons". Overall, this rework to status effects seems like a downgrade. 

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[Rhundis]

This is the first thread I've actually read about this topic that actually has a lot of good, valid points. 

[SSI_Seraph]

il y a 5 minutes, DecadeX a dit :

And here they stated it's only change is that it's only using slash now not that it's just taking all of it. I don't care what they may have said when asked on a devstream. I care what went into a planned and proofread write up.

And even with that you won't know until the update rolls in. The whole thing is shady and unclear anyway. 

[Rawbeard]

what about the 30% IPS mods?

[Trichouette]

il y a 1 minute, Rawbeard a dit :

what about the 30% IPS mods?

That ^

And what about rifle aptitude and the like ?

[Sabuuchi]

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

With little time remaining in the year to properly iterate, we decided to split this into two parts. Part 1 is Physical and it is coming soon on PC. Part 2 is Elemental and coming in 2018.

Another nerf to mag, incoming.

[Redeye]

Just now, Rawbeard said:

what about the 30% IPS mods?

What mods? 

Spoiler

That's a really good question.

 

[felix]

That all sounds really awful. I don't want crowd control on my weapon, I want to kill enemies with it. 

You're effectively making people avoid impact weapons now, ragdolling enemies is detrimental to the sole purpose of the weapon. RIP Akstiletto Prime.

Damage reduction on a weapon is the single most useless thing you could possibly come up with. Dead enemies deal no damage.

And on top of that, you're nerfing slash.

There are tons of good ideas for IPS status re-implementation, here and on Reddit. Take your fingers off your ears and listen.

[Fulmir]

Some questions, because a few things aren't clear here:
 

• Do Slash procs now generate one proc that gets stronger with repeated applications like Impact and Puncture, or do they function exactly as today with multiple slash procs producing multiple damage ticks?
   
• If the former how much of a weapon's Slash damage is taken into account, and are Slash Damage mods factored or just base-damage?
   
• How does this impact forced-Slash procs like Hunter Munitions or Stance-based procs?
   
• How is this whole change going to impact enemy weapons proccing against Tenno? For example with this change would we expect Grineer Elite Lancers to deal more or less Slash Proc damage than before?

[(PSN)TheHypothes]

7 minutes ago, Jabett said:

People thought it was over with vivergate too, DE will probably get enough hate to revert changes again, or it will be changed and turn out better than expected 

The only issue here is what many have pointed out. This is going to affect waaaaaaaay more than just a weapon's IPS distribution, and still currently fails to address enemy scaling while further limiting our options on that front.

 

It really feels like they spend all their time balancing content in the star chart, which is completely trivial content for anyone who's played for more than a year.

 

We want harder content. We want stronger gear and frames. We don't want to keep getting nerfed so old content is suddenly slower paced and difficult again.

 

Why don't we have a full on second tier of the star chart where everything is scaled higher with tougher enemies spawning immediately instead of a year into endless missions? Giving us that content might actually show you why we want the balancing tweaks we want.

[Cryssoberyl]

This is a slew of bad and misguided changes. Impact procs will make killing enemies dramatically more work with no way to control this. If you must change it, please let it simply be a stationary stun or "dizzy" of scaling duration. Puncture is still useless, if you must change it please turn it into a debuff that gives armor penetration. (To distinguish itself from Corrosive procs, it should be temporary in duration but more dramatic in effect.) This is a huge nerf to slash procs from stance combos and Hunter Munitions; damage based procs MUST continue to be calculated based on total base damage to have any realistic general use.

All in all, I feel like this initiative is a mistake. The time to radically revamp the way damage and status procs work in this game has come and gone. If this was three years ago, maybe, but so much that has been added to the game is based on the system working the way it already does, like stance-based status procs, mods that are tailored to work within the current system, etc.

Please heavily reconsider what you are planning on doing.

[OHKOBunny]

Also, please buff the 30% physical status mods. Let 'em level higher or something, please.

 

[TrickshotMcGee]

1 hour ago, [DE]Connor said:

Now, all procs will be calculated using ONLY the damage type of the proc that is being inflicted.

In other words: elemental melee weapons can no longer proc slash via stances. Neat. 

 

Also, RIP Hunter Munitions on Amprex and Lenz. It was moderately amusing while we had it.

[TheTundraTerror]

The ragdoll thing is going to make using the Rubico a nightmare.