Dev Workshop: Endless Kuva Survival & Kuva Guardian Changes!

[Messkoo]

Kuva siphon need to pop randomly in mission like before too (like stalker), with keeping actual survive(with little scaling)/siphon/flood mission. It's fresh breath in standard mission to have some surprise event.

[AvPCelticPredator]

8 hours ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2200 Kuva 146.6 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 4500 Kuva 180 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 6700 Kuva 167.5 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 5700 Kuva 228 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 12400 Kuva 190.7 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 6300 Kuva 252 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 18700 Kuva 207.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 7600 Kuva 304 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 26300 Kuva 228.6 Kuva per minutes

Did u notice something in Endless Survival about timer?

Probably u didn't!

Our dear Lotus deploying every 2 min new Life Support.

So u need also to recalculate how much time squad will need to waste with your's 115 minutes.

For your full 115 minuts (77 towers) squad need to play 115 x 2 = 230 Minutes without counting in this wasted time by searching life suport capsule in the map.

So, which squad will play 230+ minutes just for 26.3k Kuva? YOU!?

[fluffysnowcap]

8 minutes ago, AvPCelticPredator said:

Our dear Lotus deploying every 2 min new Life Support.

Erm, its every 90 seconds now, it use to be every 90 seconds + 1 seconds per lifesuport towner.

Quote

Shrine of the Eidolon: Update 22.17.0

General Changes:

• Survival Life Support Towers no longer have interval spawn scaling (90 seconds + 1 second per pillar), instead they will just spawn every 90 seconds.

 

[AvPCelticPredator]

26 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Erm, its every 90 seconds now, it use to be every 90 seconds + 1 seconds per lifesuport towner.

 

So u are ignore in your calculation spended time for searching capsule?

That's good calculation.

No doubt.

So, explain this to me in your calculations:

[fluffysnowcap]

26 minutes ago, AvPCelticPredator said:

So u are ignore in your calculation spended time for searching capsule?

That's good calculation.

No doubt.

So, explain this to me in your calculations:

Ok are you looking for a fight? as your coming across like you are and you seem to be failing to understand what i hoped was clear numbers under hypothetically perfect conditions.

Well its simple See the bit where i say "under hypothetically perfect conditions"

And this graph was using a Void fissure scaling with the fifth rotation reward being replaced with 400 kuva, so it is not representative of the current model but is the hypothetically brainstorm of an alternative model performed under perfect conditions, so these numbers won't be achievable even if what i said in this example was exactly implemented.

Quote

Kuva per minutes breakdown of this method (assuming 100% of life support towers become kuva and fifth interval gives 400 kuva) 

 0 to 15 minutes, 11 towers = 2200 Kuva 146.6 Kuva per minutes

 15 to 40minutes, 16 towers = 4500 Kuva 180 Kuva per minutes      | 0 to 40 minutes, 27 towers = 6700 Kuva 167.5 Kuva per minutes

 50 to 65 minutes, 17 towers = 5700 Kuva 228 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 65 minutes, 44 towers = 12400 Kuva 190.7 Kuva per minutes

 65 to 90 minutes, 16 towers = 6300 Kuva 252 Kuva per minutes     | 0 to 90 minutes, 60 towers = 18700 Kuva 207.7 Kuva per minutes

 90 to 115 minutes, 17 towers = 7600 Kuva 304 Kuva per minutes   | 0 to 115 minutes, 77 towers = 26300 Kuva 228.6 Kuva per minutes

Also all examples i put forwards were deliberately lack boosters and Smeeta Kavat to show the base line rewards and help keep it simple.

 

This little but here is the only part of the entire post that represents the current reality.

Quote

examples in this tab are done under hypothetically perfect conditions

20 minute Runs Kuva per minute (14 life support towers)      |    optimal 7 minute Runs Kuva per minutes (5 life support towers)

                     Flat 200  =  2800   Kuva 140 Kuva per minute         |            Flat 200  =  1000   Kuva 142.8 Kuva per minute

 

[AvPCelticPredator]

22 minutes ago, fluffysnowcap said:

Ok are you looking for a fight?

[fluffysnowcap]

22 minutes ago, AvPCelticPredator said:

[(XBOX)AboKadi]

good, but i can't play 1 hour for 1800 - 5000 kuva 

this one rolles for cost 3500 kuva

i think change one rolle cost 2300 kuva or kuva rawards in survivers (up every 5 min )
i mean up ( 200 - 400 - 600 ) every 5 min.

 

thanx DE

[LSG501]

Just a bit more feedback... without a resource booster I've had no interest in doing 'endless kuva', I didn't mind the return when I had a resource booster but since that ended I've zero interest in doing it and I even have a couple of rivens I want to reroll....

[MirageKnight]

Something to keep in mind everyone.

This latest means of acquiring Kuva is not meant as a replacement or an upgrade to previous means of acquiring Kuva, nor should it be. I think in this instance DE is largely correct in keeping Kuva Survival pretty much as is and ignoring the clamoring for scaling rewards as a means of giving people a reason for staying longer in missions.

DE isn't obligated to feed a player's "need" to stay longer in a mission than they really intended you to, because that honestly is completely up to the player. Want to stay in Survival for more than 40 minutes? That's on you. Now if you feel you need encouragement to stay longer...that might be your subconscious saying "Ok - time to back out. I've hit the point of diminishing returns and I really need a break".

That said, I swear some of you have this "gambling addict" vibe I'm picking up from postings...which is interesting and not terribly surprising considering that Rivens are kinda like slot machines. Except instead of coins, you feed them kuva for a random stat boost as a payout for "winning" and getting the "right roll".

I mean honestly when you do roll a Riven, it's very much like pulling the handle on a slot machine.

[Synpai]

1 hour ago, MirageKnight said:

-snip-

Eh, I don't think many people enjoy rolling rivens, but they have the potential to drastically change a weapon.

People just want either:

• A) Less RNG 
• B) More rolls (with a hint of fun and being rewarded for time spent and less of "back and forth to pull the lever" as you say)
• C) A little bit of both lol

Each of the solutions around the problems involving Riven accessibility, Riven Stat targeting and Riven economy (All being a factor of pure RNG). This is similar to how arcanes were priced because of the barrier for entry and 4 times per day RNG involved.

In general positive reinforcement is what keeps us going in many aspects of life, but especially games. What if enemies never dropped anything or gave experience?

Spoiler

Heck without my paycheck I would NOT bother driving 2 hours back and forth for work each day. My last job payed me half as much as I'm making now for two times the work (and once I found out how much more than me my coworkers made at that job, it drastically changed my ability to work at 200% while they put in 50%).

 

I mean there's some enjoyment to killing enemies, but it only goes so far. Say what you will about the players and their supposed problems, but there's nothing wrong with wanting to be rewarded for effort and Rivens are factually faulty in design:

On 4/3/2018 at 12:57 PM, Synpai said:

(This is kind of my passionate topic because I absolutely hate Rivens as a design system)

Haves vs HaveNots is very much a thing, that is driving riven economy through the roof because rather than "Hey I need to go farm until I get serration." It's "Hey I need to go farm until I get lucky enough to roll serration from a pure RNG list." It's purely a system of luck where someone can get a GOD roll for a strong weapon from unveiling, whilst another spends 200+ rolls to get nothing. Because of this reason alone, prices are absurd.

You can opt out just as easily, but your riven-less weapon is factually not the same as a weapon with the riven. This problem exists and the only counter is to get lucky or buy it, but the issue is that you may never get lucky. Pure RNG means you could theoretically roll hundreds of times and get garbage (or not at all and get perfection).

Weapons and their stats change, mods change, variants happen. Meaning your 300+ rolled riven has less value than a riven that has the same stats but one roll (because it has the chance to change or improve if needed). This means that there's no progression and that effort is not being rewarded.

 

The purpose of rivens was to "balance out" the weapons, or at least give lesser used/powered weapons a chance. Which is why I believe all weapons should just have a "Riven Imprint" (could still take up a mod slot) that is unlocked via plat or by doing challenges (maybe doing x headshots or kills using the weapon). Such that players could trade their "Riven imprints" with others so long as they both had them unlocked. That way every weapon can have a riven and everyone can get one (just would take time to get to the stats wanted).

 Anyone with a bar chart can tell you what happens when you give rivens to a select few weapons (because it's random and has a cap you CANNOT get a riven for every weapon). Only SOME weapons grow in strength, and the cap only ensures that players have to be selective (Other than a few rivens I'm saving for variants I don't bother with garbage weapons I.e: Embolist).

 

This last point is debatable, but I really wish normal rolls cost credits and holding stats cost Kuva. We have a whole currency that we really can't use up thorough normal play (it's a struggle early in the game, but much like Skyrim...you make more than you can spend).

 

(I made a video about all of this, but I know no one wants to go through that lol)
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

P.S: I really wish Rivens had cooler effects rather than stat buffs.

[Hawk197]

4 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

Something to keep in mind everyone.

This latest means of acquiring Kuva is not meant as a replacement or an upgrade to previous means of acquiring Kuva, nor should it be. I think in this instance DE is largely correct in keeping Kuva Survival pretty much as is and ignoring the clamoring for scaling rewards as a means of giving people a reason for staying longer in missions.

DE isn't obligated to feed a player's "need" to stay longer in a mission than they really intended you to, because that honestly is completely up to the player. Want to stay in Survival for more than 40 minutes? That's on you. Now if you feel you need encouragement to stay longer...that might be your subconscious saying "Ok - time to back out. I've hit the point of diminishing returns and I really need a break".

That said, I swear some of you have this "gambling addict" vibe I'm picking up from postings...which is interesting and not terribly surprising considering that Rivens are kinda like slot machines. Except instead of coins, you feed them kuva for a random stat boost as a payout for "winning" and getting the "right roll".

I mean honestly when you do roll a Riven, it's very much like pulling the handle on a slot machine.

I, like many others, want Endless to mean something. To use Damage 2.0 as an example, why should I use Impact when Slash is superior? Impact means basically nothing right now, yet it is a core mechanic to the game. To many of us, Impact is basically useless. Likewise, Endless, a core feature and one of the main attractions to the Kuva Fortress, is basically useless, because the amount of Kuva per normal run is basically the same.

 

Here's some exaggerated math, but it should get my point across. Lets say there are 10 Kuva missions, 9 Siphons and 1 Flood. Each mission takes roughly 5 minutes to complete. Without a booster or Smeeta, and taking the lowball 550 per Siphon, and 1100 for Flood, that's 6050 Kuva for 50 minutes. Without a booster or Smeeta, Endless rewarding 200 Kuva per tower, assuming each tower drops every 60 seconds, you don't need to use any towers for life support, the game magically starts you off with a tower extracting Kuva right off the bat, and the tower spawns right next to you every time, you get 10000 Kuva for 50 minutes. That's obviously using the EXTREME ends. Taking what we have now, with towers every 90 seconds, still not counting for the fact you need to find the tower, that's roughly 33 towers over 50 minutes, or 6600. Lets' also not neglect to mention that the life support towers tend to glitch out and not accept the Kuva Catalyst, that the towers can be destroyed, and you still need to find the thing to begin with. Giving a generous 10 seconds (average) added to find the tower, that's 30 towers, or 6000 Kuva over 50 minutes. If we say 1 tower in that entire run glitches out and doesn't take the Catalyst,  that's 29 towers, or 5800 Kuva over 50 minutes.

 

Those numbers of course, are assuming there are 10 Kuva missions up. Normally it's about 6, 5 Siphons and 1 Flood. But even then the math still checks out. 3850 for 30 minutes, 3800 Kuva from Endless after factoring in the 1 possible glitched tower, or 4000 Kuva without a glitched tower. And again, those are the lowball numbers for the normal missions. The Kuva rewarded for normal missions ranges between 550 and 700 per Siphon, 1100 and 1400 per Flood. I got an average of 688.33r Kuva per mission once I ran my 6 missions.

 

Also, Rivens are the main Kuva sink, but what about crafts, like Weapons or Warframes? While there aren't many of those right now, there is always a chance it will be needed more and more at later points in the future. Yeah, I've sunk over 4 million Kuva into my Rivens, with my Opticor Riven having 149 rerolls (Just over 500k Kuva), but I'm an EXTREME example. There are still those that need to build Harrow or Kesheg.

[meritosthene]

with booster(s) and smeeta running i netted 8000 kuva in 30 mins

[LSG501]

6 hours ago, MirageKnight said:

I mean honestly when you do roll a Riven, it's very much like pulling the handle on a slot machine.

And there you have the main problem with rivens/kuva, we are basically gambling away our kuva (at an increasing rate up to the max amount) to try and in many cases actually get a roll that is even remotely useful let alone a 'god roll'.   It wouldn't be an issue if a reroll was maxed at a 1000 say but it's 3500 once you hit 10 (which will have cost almost 20k in kuva in itself) and that's pretty easy to do...

Scaling rewards doesn't hurt anyone but actually rewards those who like to stay longer, having said that a base amount buff wouldn't go a miss either.

[(PSN)Zelgorath]

How about scaling Kuva rewards like Rotation A, B, B, C, in incremental value (once you reach C, it stays at C)? 200 for A, 250 for B, and 300 for C. Completing a cycle of A, B, B, C would cost 4 towers and approximately 7-8 minutes (considering towers are supposed to spawn once every 90 seconds). That would be 1K Kuva. A suitable reward considering the scaling enemies and the risk reward.

[sacredaardvark]

Why are some people even comparing Endless Kuva to Kuva Flood?  It makes no sense.

You do the Flood/Siphons, and then you need to wait before you can do more.  You can't run them constantly (unless you're slow, or are abusing friends to dance around the limits), but you can with Endless Kuva.  So endless should definitely not be better or equal to floods for kuva, since then there would be no reason to run the regular Kuva missions.

You run the normal Kuvas, and then you run a bit of Endless while waiting for new Kuvas to become available.  That way you can farm kuva 24/7, this isn't rocket science people. 

[Brynslustafir]

Has DE said anything about whether or not scaling is being added? The stuffs been out for a week. That seems like enough time to think it over.

[VenomousValentine]

15 minutes ago, Plasmaface said:

Has DE said anything about whether or not scaling is being added? The stuffs been out for a week. That seems like enough time to think it over.

Nope. We're getting an update today and it's not in it.. Looks like they aren't going to listen to the community yet again.

[Graavarg]

Well, personally I hate the "riven for profit"-trading cycle (buy cheap rivens from low lvl players - farm kuva - roll - sell "godly" S#&$). Because this removes the rivens from play from a rather large group of players, and completely misses the basic idea of rivens = to make "meh"-weapons interesting again. If someone actually want to pay thousands of plat for an electronic mod/card that dropped by chance (and was further rolled by chance), feel free. Though this makes absolutely no sense to me personally.

However, a single (or a few) "meh"-weapon(s) with a good riven would be an absolute godsend (or situationally "godly") for a player from this group, and immensely add to their gaming experience. Getting through sorties, unlocking rivens AND farming kuva in order to get a few usable rivens (instead of plat from richer players) is actually hard for a lot of players at that stage, but selling your only veiled riven for 30p doesn't help.

The new endless kuva system helps a little though, since farming kuva at Taveuni is doable even without having 100% skills and/or 100% equipment, and thus helps (at least a little) in opening up riven use for this group. Even if few of them have Taveuni unlocked (there are established ways to get to places like that = not a big problem). I like the endless kuva simply for this effect.

I also personally actually like the gameplay at Taveuni, since teams that work well together do a lot better (even when consisting of random players) and all four Tennos are actually needed (in comparison to the old-type kuva missions, where one experienced kuva-catcher does all the kuva work while the rest either run around or finish the mission. The cooperative gameplay at Taveuni also highlights different frames (and their interaction) in a really nice way. Had 230% range Nekros in my Limbo-bubble the other night, while a Nidus and a Valkyr ran around killing stuff like Duracell-bunnies (within Desecrate-range), and by actually really cooperating we went to 48 mins. (one MR 18, one MR 11, one MR10 and one MR 6). And got a nice amount of kuva, loot and affinity, but most of all it was great fun. Better than any standard kuva-mission ever. So from my viewpoint, Taveuni Endless Kuva is a truly great addition to the game.

I would, of course, personally like to easily and quickly being able to gather hundreds of thousands of kuva and roll all my rivens until they were absolutely top-tier. Sure. Even though I wouldn't sell them, cause who can resist mega-critting, multishotting, hyper-statusing tools of death . But from an overall game viewpoint I like that the kuva amount doesn't increase, since this would mostly benefit high level players and feed into the (imho slightly insane) riven-business.

So, (at least two) thumbs up for Taveuni & current endless kuva.

[Guest]

Well, with today's update, and after ALL the feedback, I think it's safe to assume that DE isn't going to make kuva scale any time soon (if ever).

[AvPCelticPredator]

Dear DEVS our Endless Survival Kuva is now much worse cuz deploying new capsule after first one is not scaled with minimum life support from first capsule (harvesting one).

Like I was say before we losing 1-2 min by searching new capsule, and deploying is not good.

After we starting Kuva harvesting from first capsule, immediately must to be deployed new capsule, and we can have 60 seconds to find that new one and starting new harvesting, right now that isn't like I saying, first we losing 60 second by waiting new capsule and 60 seconds by searching location where it is deployed.

So, that mean's (First harvesting from first capsule we got 200 kuva and spend 2 min by searching new one which at last give us 3 min just to collect between 1 and 2 capsule 3 minutes for 200 kuva!)

So, if u wanna keep this method in the game then increase that number from 200 Kuva per min plus 2 min losing by deploying and searching to 600 kuva.

(200 Kuva x 3 Min = 600 Kuva) and we will be satisfied.

 

Thx!

[Brynslustafir]

Where's the scaling? You know what people want. 

[IceColdHawk]

14 hours ago, Plasmaface said:

Where's the scaling? You know what people want. 

It's where the content lies. If you get what i mean.

[Sean]

There currently is nothing in the game that gives a reason to push for the higher levels, not since the Void Key to Relic change.

 

Please add kuva scaling when going longer in a survival mission, there has to be a reason/reward when going for those higher tiered enemies. Don't leave it like how you guys did the Index which is also a waste of time when going longer.

[Nez-Kal]

All I can say is Bravo to you, DE. Lots of people in this forum THINK they want scaling Kuva reward on the Survival node, but anyone who's been around the block (like, oh I don't know, The actual Developers) would know that doing this would only create an ultra "Meta Build 2 hour run or GTFO!" atmosphere around the whole thing and create toxicity in the Riven/Kuva player-base.

The Kuva Survival is a pretty darn perfect Alternative (you wouldn't believe how many people refuse to read that word in the Developer explanations and posts) and in-between method for Kuva farming, being on average a little more than Regular Siphons but a little less than Flood Siphons. I enjoy hoping in two or three missions before or after a Flood, and then rolling 10+ Rolled Rivens quite a few times with my hour long farm. Feels better to me than the normal Siphons, but I suppose that also depends on the crowd you farm with or the Public squad you get thrown in with.

 

Again, Bravo to you, DE, for not succumbing to the Forum madness and making the Kuva rewards scale, and keeping this brand new node an enjoyable experience for the, as some on the forum might call us, "filthy casuals who are ruining the game" *pfft*.

(And for those of you thinking it, no. There's no sarcasm here. This is legit praise to DE for NOT giving a tiny part of the player-base what they want, no matter how loud they try to scream it.)