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[DE]Rebecca

Melee: Present and Future goals!

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Can the stance combo move of having to input a 'back' button be taken out completely? We melee enemies usually by moving forward, so having that back button in the stance combo is really silly.

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Question: Who is representing the interests of highly mobile melee stances that are balanced from the standpoint of enjoyability and the ability to project your influence on the battlefield?

I talk to all kinds of people who can't put Final Harbinger or Clashing Forest down, but things feel a bit skewed towards dealing with Spin2Win and while that directional slam has awesome potential I'm not sure we're all talking about the same melee experience, and I figure you guys are pro 'heavily-engaged-with-happyangrygigglesnorts' and that feels like the sort of experience that Warframe gives me the most tantalizing moments of (and I'm trying to get better at).   I hope we're not missing a window.

Also: Why can't Valkyrs Ripline into Eidolons while Atlasas Skypunch their arms off, Rhinos kick them in the shins, and Titanias Diwata the heck out of them?  That's what was in my head when POE was announced.   

Edited by FreeWilliam
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14 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

As an avid DMC player and 4 year Warframe vet, I agree that having access to all our melee abilities right at our finger tips is a good idea... in large part, I think this is why many of us rely on spin so much. Because it's instant, it's mobile, and it tends to hit crowds of enemies.

Exactly.  Why take the time to switch to melee mode when you can just spin to win?  You have to be in a certain mood to enter melee mode... a mode where you give up access to your firearms.  That's not a mood that hits players often I'd wager.

17 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

spin attacks to become unique distance closing attacks. -example: Something like the classic Stinger from DMC? Or that multi-swing strike that Agni and Rudra does. Or any of Virgil's distance closers.

Yes.  All of this.  You had me at Stinger!

18 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

slam attacks leading into powerful ground pound combos, that keep the enemy prone or some other utility. Not simply "knock them down and do a ground finisher."

Finisher combos?  I'm thinking of Dante's ground combo in DMC when using Gunslinger; press firearms rapidly near the enemy and he puts his boot on their head and blasts them in the face.  Either that or just speed up the animation of finishers in general.

20 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

air attacks leading into powerful multi strike combos that keep the enemy (and yourself) moving through the air.

I mentioned this to another user but I was in a rush to post on the front page as I feel very strongly about this topic.  Even though I wouldn't mind the aerial floatiness of enemies while being attacked in Warframe, I'm not so sure such a thing would fit Warframe's narrative.  If I wasn't rushed I would have posted a video from Ninja Gaiden where aerial attacks occur on enemies who are still well under the effects of gravity.

23 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

attack after a roll or while sprinting, kind of like Dark Souls? Leading into a low-blow style combo, to trip up enemies, without needing to jump slam first.

If I was rich I'd get a hold of you offline and fly us up to DE and do our best to convey all of these ideas.  So... YES to this one too!

24 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

blocking could simply be aim + hold melee. Which could then be pulled out in a split seconds notice. Allowing more skilled and fluid use of an otherwise sidelined mechanic. In the time you NEED to block, the time it takes to ACTUALLY Block... we might as well not have the feature.

Exactly my dude.  Or dudette.  It's not that players don't want to block but it's locked behind 'melee mode'.  By time you holster your firearms, pull out your melee, then press block... you could have just killed the enemy.  Blocking should be immediately accessible during the times its needed aka those 'oh crap i'm going to die' moments.

Channeling can be saved and iterated upon.  It just needs to not be locked behind melee mode and become a universal buff that entices players to use.

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As someone who passionately hates doesn't like whip weapons/spin to win weapons, i'm finally glad that it's being looked at. I really don't enjoy when someone spin to wins with their +200% range whip and clears a room before I can even say good morning to the enemies, it's not only disorienting, but basically doesn't allow me to have fun killing stuff.

Melee not going through walls? Isn't that hard to simulate with the way the game's physics works? I'm all for a touch of realism, so worth trying it out.

Edited by Frenjo
Clarified wording and removed typos.
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Hope I don't get grief for this but why not re-introduce the stamina bar for blocking/channeling instead of using energy? Just a thought. :))

Oh and rework finishers to be more styalized. Decapitation is a must!

1470ddad4114eb850e8221bcb913602c.jpg

Edited by (XB1)DerangedMime00
stuff
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Just delete maiming strike and problems with spin2win is ended :/

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Since we're getting combo counter changes here will that mean we'll get changes to the baseline crit mods like Organ Shatter and True steel? If Blood Rush isn't as practical it would be very helpful to have decent crit mods for melee.

If heavy attacks mean the current "charge attack" system, does that mean mods like fury and berserker will work on charged attacks now? I would really appreciate that for weapons like the Caustacyst.

Will Gaia's Tragedy keep "Forest's Remrose"?

Will you be rebalancing weapons like the Fang Prime and the Machete?

Whatever else happens I would really like to ask that you stick to your guns on killing spin to win.

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Are there any plans for AIR and WALL attacks, that are currently a bit useless?

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So in the last couple of weeks, I've been grinding countless bounties for the eidolon lenses, farming resources to make greater lenses, made two extra melee weapons and forma'd them up, waited two days for the lenses to be ready, and all that just so I can somehow cap the daily focus, because of the ungodly amount of focus needed to finish leveling a skill tree. And now, you're just saying that all of my melee weapons I spent so much time to craft solely for the tedious process of focus farming, are obsolete because you think that playstile ''isn't fun''? Are you kidding me? Am i going to get my forma and lenses returned to me after you roll the melee rework? I highly doubt that. I think that if you're removing one of the most effective way to grind your godawful focus farm, at least have the decency to consult the players first. Or rework the focus system again, because that ball isn't working and you've been told that countless times already.

 

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Just my two bits, but spin to win on a heavily formad and modded weapon feels right! I understand that some people use and abuse it more than others, but it is a staple of this game. When my primary and my secondary don't do the job, a well placed spinning slash from my huge sword will slice an enemy in half, as it should! No changes made should in any way pigeon-hole players into certain weapons or play styles.

    That's one of the major draws of this game, the variety of viable ways to play the content. If players are pushed off of melee in general, that's going to be a big loss for this game's richness overall.

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5 minutes ago, Celimbor said:

now, you're just saying that all of my melee weapons I spent so much time to craft solely for the tedious process of focus farming, are obsolete because you think that playstile ''isn't fun''? Are you kidding me? 

Yep, that's what they are saying. I really think every Dev needs to go play a few missions melee only. That's honestly some of the most fun I've had in this game. 

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I'm guessing their just going to make block and channel the same button 

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I like many of these changes. But. BUT. HUGE BUT.

The changes to the combo counter will make virtually ALL melee weapons obsolete. "Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack" This is a HUGE nerf. Melee builds practically require you to get that x1.5 x2 etc. damage boost to even COMPETE with most primaries and secondaries. 

Rough example scenario: instead of building up a combo so that ALL of your melee attacks are viable against lvl 50 enemies, the new proposal would mean that we would have to spend X hits of absolute minimal damage to build up a single, normal damage hit. Alternative: you just pull out your gun and shoot the enemy. Takes MUCH less time, requires no buildup, and has a lot less risk involved. The new changes would murder melee into unusability at any higher level mission, where you practically need to 1hko enemies before they kill you. You simply don't have the time to hit enemies at lvl 100 fifty times to their faces before they kill you.

Eliminating phantom melee range? Great! I love it.
Dual wield 1h melees with other things? Awesome!
You want to make slam attacks more viable? Ummmmm ok? The problem is that they lock you in place, but.... whatever, good luck to you!

But the new combo counter changes? If implemented, melee is no longer viable, unless all weapons are straight up multiplied in damage.

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I think there are two massive problems with channeling.

  1. It takes from the energy pool.
  2. It takes up normal mod slots.
  • I would use channeling, but energy and mod slots are more valuable than any idea of cool factor gained by channeling(outside of life strike).  
  • I like the idea of getting a button on my controller back by getting rid of channeling 
  • I might want a button on my controller back, but i don't want it this bad
  • this game is more dynasty warriors than it is dark souls. Many of these changes would work well in dark souls.
  • Someone said heavy attacks in this game are not fun(that person was so right) 
  • if heavy attacks worked like god of war heavys it would be good
  • If players sit and farm things in a wall (at least they are interested in the game)
  • To understand how important it is for me that these changes don't happen. You could nerf half the frames into the ground at random and this would still affect me more negatively. 
  • Am I a bit salty: yes 
Edited by zfenty

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11 minutes ago, lihimsidhe said:

I mentioned this to another user but I was in a rush to post on the front page as I feel very strongly about this topic.  Even though I wouldn't mind the aerial floatiness of enemies while being attacked in Warframe, I'm not so sure such a thing would fit Warframe's narrative.  If I wasn't rushed I would have posted a video from Ninja Gaiden where aerial attacks occur on enemies who are still well under the effects of gravity.

If I was rich I'd get a hold of you offline and fly us up to DE and do our best to convey all of these ideas.  So... YES to this one too!

Exactly my dude.  Or dudette.  It's not that players don't want to block but it's locked behind 'melee mode'.  By time you holster your firearms, pull out your melee, then press block... you could have just killed the enemy.  Blocking should be immediately accessible during the times its needed aka those 'oh crap i'm going to die' moments.

Channeling can be saved and iterated upon.  It just needs to not be locked behind melee mode and become a universal buff that entices players to use.

-About Air combos, I was just thinking of adding more strikes to our present air-attacks. Maintain momentum, and pulling any enemy you hit with you. Not the floaty DMC thing. Because I agree that's far outside of Warframe's style, I just want them to be more developed than a single strike.

-I wish I could go to Tennocon. Unfortunately I play this game because it's free... and money is something I can't justify. Maybe next year.

-My dude. And yes, burying block under so many commands is the perfect example of why Sword-Alone mode is totally in-congruent to Warframe's gameplay and style. It was a bad move.

-Channeling is the part i'm most shaky on. It's hard to justify removing a feature.

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2 часа назад, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

 

  • Combo Counter damage multiplier may apply to heavy attack only and all points are spent on attack.

This is totally going to ruin melee T_T

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1 hour ago, letir said:

I wish simplified combo imput, with Light and Heavy attacks on separate buttons. It will make combat more diverse and engaging.

thats what they are doing.....along with a bunch of other changes

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While this new iteration of melee looks good, I'd have to ask that this does not ship until enemy scaling is looked at. Right now, this new system will NOT be able to take down high leveled enemies in combat.

Quote

normal blocking will now perform like channeled blocking currently does!

Energy drain is an immediate no no: managing energy economy at high level is very important. You either want to spend it on kills (caster frame) or keeping yourself/others alive (tank/support frames). Excalibur's Exalted Blade autoblock would kill your energy too quickly if I had to channel melee block at high level.

Quote

Heavy Attacks: Heavy attacks will now use the old Channelling button and will be powered by your combo counter. Part of this change includes improvements to charge attacks (goodbye false swings), ground slams (making them able to be directional), and more.

If the devstream is any indicator, this is an immediate no: The charge up delay was the whole reason nobody uses charge attacks, since you would die before finishing. Now that you want to make attacks not go through walls, you would die before ever getting off a single one. With stances, we have button inputs to get up to some strong attacks and they're very fast.

 

Also, charge attack animations look stupid for the grand majority of melee weapon types.

Quote

Range: First and foremost, we will be removing the ability to melee attack through walls. Range Melee Mods will be reduced overall and will possibly become more specialized, while the base range of melee weapons will be increased.

If we can't at least go through obstacles, melee will be even more dead in high level fights.

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1 hour ago, Crimson-Tenno said:

same... life strike is literally mandatory for low armor frames if you want to use melee only... at least we may get a better passive for zenurik heh.

Life Strike isn't mandatory at all.  It's just considered meta by those who haven't bothered to find alternate methods.  I haven't bothered with LS since getting Healing Return.  

44 minutes ago, Xydeth said:

all im saying is pls keep the dmg aspect of channel. dont just put it into blocking....that would be a huge waste. improve the damaging aspect and keep it alongside the blocking.

I also agree with this.  I like using channeled attacks this way.  

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Here are 2 major things to worry about/consider

1 if blocking is always channeled blocking: Does it cost energy, cant you block without losing energy then, will the different block efficiencies of current weapons be irrelevant then (like silva and aegis prime blocks 90% unchanneled, fists usually only block 30% etc)

 

2: The combo counter and mods like blood rush or weeping wounds (i think). Those few mods that scale with the combo counter. If i understood them correctly ONLY, read ONLY, heavy attacks get a damage boost from the combo counter and they sort of "consume" your combo meter. This will be a HUGE nerf for crit weapons that rely on bloodrush and the like. No damage boost for normal strikes from combo counter and if you use a heavy attack your combo meter and thus your crit chance drops dramatically

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I don't get it, if the problem is the spin-to-win against a wall tactic, then why nerf all the melees rather than just work on Maiming Strike and similar mods that make this possible?

You are once again trying to fix the symptoms rather than cure the disease.

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While I am all about the removal of 'spin to win' thru walls.. and find that joining a match with Atterax spam to be obnoxious.. I have a few comments and caveat about what else is going on around these changes.

 

First of all, while melee thru walls can and should go, I would hate to see melee range be killed on polearms and the new Heavy Zaw. Maybe they are a LITTLE too reach-y, but not much. With the way enemy pathing works, and with the other 'broke ass meta' in the room (AoE frames destroying the entire map before you can get in range), Melee can be very frustrating of we dont have a that extra push to strike down targets. When I was new to the game, I hated huffing-and-puffing my way into traditional melee range, only to have my target (and the next 3) obliterated before I could even swing.

I think the current range on non-zaw weapons, from daggers on up to Galatine Prime, is just too short. There is a reason that alot of people love Polearm Zaws.. they have a satisfying reach that makes heavy melee gameplay feel rewarding. Furthermore, I hope that the tinkering and especially Riven investment that people have put into getting long range Pole Zaws is not completely disregarded. You have people who have and will focus their gameplay on Kuva Endless in order to roll a perfect Plague Krip Riven with long range on it. 

Maybe 15m is too much, but lets not throw it in the can and cut it to half, ok? I think the line of traditional weapons should be given a little bit more, but I do think there should still be a rewarding benefit to having a Range Riven. Maybe the individual Range Scaling of certain 1-handed weapons should be considered too, like Nikanas.

 

With that said, happy to say RIP spin to win. Just keep in mind, solo players will need something significant to rely on in high end missions.. and, satisfying melee is part of the 'power fantasy' that can be stunted by the mechanics of this game. 

Edited by Rahlgrim
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I believe this is a good time to address the melee cooldown when you perform an air attack. There's nothing worse than trying to melee on a ramp or stairs, accidentally performing an air melee, and having to wait to attack again. I believe it should reset immediately when a player's feet touch the ground.

Dodge cancelling is FANTASTIC! Cancelling in general is fantastic!

Would DE consider auto blocking since manual standard blocking would go away with these changes? This would mean you don't have to use energy to block and help with the energy cost balance of channeled blocking.

Edited by Neightrix
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Changing melee hitboxes and hit detection is opening a can of worms that could make melee completely useless and broken (not in a good way). How are you going to ensure that melee is accurate enough to where if I am attacking an enemy with a simple piece of geometry like a crate in the way that I will still be able to hit that enemy since I am cutting over/through the crate and will still hit. How are you going to make sure that I can hit enemies that are standing near a corner or doorway without my attacks being negated and me just getting shot in the face. If you have a good solution to these issues that is fine but honestly it sounds like it has the potential to create a lot more bugs than actually solving any issues. Also how will this address the hitboxes or detection when attacking multiple enemies at once.

If a pillar totally eats my swing just because an enemy is standing behind it then this will be the worst change of all time. I would hope there would be a better solution to fix spin attacks than redoing the entire melee system cause this will just result in frustration and  reduce melee to garbage if I can't actually hit and kill when I am swinging at given how many objects and geometry can appear on any level that can potentially get in the way. None of the clips posted show any melee actually functioning in a crowded area or demonstrate these changes so I would just give this a thumbs down until you can show that the hit detection will be accurate and not break the flow and function of melee combat as it exists currently. 

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