What do we want for raid?

[Gentleman_Bird]

31 minutes ago, Evil.Eye said:

Only way i can see a proper challenging Raid work in this game is to Limit What can be brought on mission and what can be used and have it limited to 4 players and be More reliant on stealth as opposed to bringing the biggest loudest weaponry and heaviest tank.

See, the problem with stealth is, what happens if you get caught? Does the mission fail? Do you need to completely restart? That's gonna be a hard no from me.

 

I would love some more stealth content in the game, but I don't think it's gonna fit with raids.

[Kimimoto]

On 2019-03-20 at 10:32 AM, angias said:

Raid

I want a classic raid fight, a heavily scripted event with a ton of mechanics and no revives. If everyone dies, the boss resets. 

Here's a good example

 

[Evil.Eye]

34 minutes ago, Gentleman_Bird said:

See, the problem with stealth is, what happens if you get caught? Does the mission fail? Do you need to completely restart? That's gonna be a hard no from me.

 

I would love some more stealth content in the game, but I don't think it's gonna fit with raids.

a larger focus to remain unalerted but not a complete fail. It just means the mission is now harder since your not gonna be rolling your nukes. unless the mission is something like Spy where you have to be silent(IMO its a bit too forgiving if you get caught)

[Lost_Cartographer]

39 minutes ago, Gentleman_Bird said:

See, the problem with stealth is, what happens if you get caught? Does the mission fail? Do you need to completely restart? That's gonna be a hard no from me.

 

I would love some more stealth content in the game, but I don't think it's gonna fit with raids.

Better stealth and hunting (enemy looking for you) mechanics would be a good thing for Warframe.  Unfortunately, tile sets are by and large pretty horrible for stealthing around simply because every tile is connected by a single door.

As for raiding, the only way to get raiding to work as I imagine people imagine it would require custom geometry and unique enemies designed to engage 8 Tenno at once with some combat support in typical trash mobs.  Basically mini-bosses or "elites" galore as a standard foot soldier, with crewmen/lancers being fodder just to feed ammo.  In the short term, picture bosses like Tyl Regor, Sargus Ruk, and Kela De Thaym and the Gustrag Three as comprising the dozens of faceless foot soldiers guarding whatever castle you're trying to storm. 

[(XBOX)Papa Requiem]

On 2019-03-20 at 9:39 AM, KiteoHatto said:

No, please no destiny raids.

Spire of stars, Leviathan and eater of worlds is why I ended up dropping D2 and came back to this. It was so chuck full of "stand on this and touch your nose, now spin around,..now recite the star bangled banner in latin..oh now... everyone jump and repeat all the prior steps backwards while you slowly die and your vision dims down to nothing in order to get the boss to show up".

 

You know, Anthem's strongholds are more my type. You don't need a super coordinated team of tryhards to get through(unless you are on the much higher difficulty but thats another can of worms). You just need half an hour of your time and shoot things.

Anthem's strongholds are boring! And Destiny raids are precisely the challenge Warframe needs. They're fun, take commitment to learn, and require min-maxed builds.

[YazMatazO]

Something difficult. 

[Aldain]

5 hours ago, Kimimoto said:

Here's a good example

As a semi-ex-player of FF14 who has done and completed some raids and extreme boss fights, FF14 is the absolute last thing people should be looking at for raid design ideas.

The fights are good visual spectacles, but they are basically convoluted DDR fights that so much rely on making zero (not few, ZERO) mistakes by standing in right place to avoid scripted damage vomit/instakills while simultaneously maximizing DPS in order to not get BTFO'd by a hard enrage that it comes down to more playing like a robot than actually adapting and counteracting anything on the fly. The fights are the most basic pass/fail flowchart where 7 people can often be dragged down by one with little to no room to compensate, the recent Ultimate raids are also reduced to "play like this flowchart says or wipe and do it right" even more so.

My point being that with all the variables that Warframe has it would be an absolutely awful idea to try to make anything heavily scripted whatsoever because all this would do is reduce any raid down to a "bring this teamcomp or you fail before you even start" and with the sheer amount of variety in Warframe that would be a slap in the face to many players.

On topic, I'd like to see a multi-stage singular mission using goals that are already instinctive to players in order to make a mission based on endurance.

An example of this could be something like a Fomorian Raid, where two teams of 4 are split into the two halves of the Fomorian and move through it sabotaging different components from the inside. This would be achieved by completing several different objectives across the different rooms of the Fomorian, hacking consoles, destroying components, defeating guards/minibosses, and so on. Following having done enough damage to the inner components the internal reactor would expose itself and this is where the two teams would meet up for the final boss fight against the core, its defense systems and maybe a cameo of Vay Hek for good measure. This boss fight would need to be something that would have interaction with the environment to disable defenses while also managing other incoming enemies for both ammo and resources to open the boss to damage. After defeating the Boss the team would then need to quickly evacuate to a segment of the Fomorian that was sabotaged earlier as an escape route. The Tenno reach the escape point engage Archwings and fly away not looking at explosions like badasses.

Or you know, something in that vein.

[Kimimoto]

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

As a semi-ex-player of FF14 who has done and completed some raids and extreme boss fights, FF14 is the absolute last thing people should be looking at for raid design ideas.

 

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

An example of this could be something like a Fomorian Raid, where two teams of 4 are split into the two halves of the Fomorian and move through it sabotaging different components from the inside. This would be achieved by completing several different objectives across the different rooms of the Fomorian, hacking consoles, destroying components, defeating guards/minibosses, and so on.

So rather than having an interesting scripted fight, you'd rather have what raids were before, basically.

FFXIV has literally the best boss fights in MMOs, I don't know how you think they should be the LAST thing people look at.

Being coordinated is the name of the game for raids. You said it yourself you can't make ANY mistakes or you'll wipe. That's how raid fights should absolutely 100% be, or else what's the damn point? They'll be 100x too easy. You know, like past Warframe raids.

 

1 hour ago, Aldain said:

convoluted DDR fights that so much rely on making zero (not few, ZERO) mistakes by standing in right place to avoid scripted damage vomit/instakills while simultaneously maximizing DPS in order to not get BTFO'd by a hard enrage that it comes down to more playing like a robot than actually adapting and counteracting anything on the fly.

Yeah Turn 7 would like to have a talk

 

[LupisV0lk]

On 2019-03-21 at 1:11 AM, Voltage said:

I would like raids to have mechanics never seen in Warframe, and the efficiency is dependent on your communication and teamwork.

INB4 we are set back at square one and have elitists locking down "raids" because people don't know how to do them and said people are unable to do the raids in order to lean how to do them because of said elitists gatekeeping.

Edited March 22, 2019 by LupisV0lk

[Aldain]

2 minutes ago, Kimimoto said:

interesting scripted fight

I'm not trying to send this thread wildly off topic discussing the ins and outs of a traditional themepark-style MMO vs a Space Ninja Looter Shooter, but I will say this.

Interesting Scripted Fight is an oxymoron, the more scripted something is the easier it is to reduce the elements down to a simple flowchart and once something can be listed with actions going in an unchanging and unending sequence until the clock decides "lol no enough you lose" is not interesting, while it does allow for visual cadence and some moments in the fights that have an impact.I always enjoyed the final phase of Nidhogg normal in FF14 for example where the music swells as he casts Akh Morn stack AoEs and the music is a wonderful fit for the desperation and united stand the players are making against the boss.

But all of that presentation doesn't actually make the fight interesting, it makes the design OF the fight interesting, but the fight itself is linear and only proceeds according to a fixed script or not at all. Warframe is not designed for that setup, the sheer amount of mobility and variability compared to the GCD system and static rotations and optimal openers of FF14 makes the two incomparable. Nevermind that FF14 runs on a classic trinity system of Tank/Healer/DPS while Warframe has no comparison other than a handful of durable frames, a handful of healing options/frames while everything else is just DPS.

Designing scripted flowchart fights in a game like Warframe, regardless of difficulty is something that would go against Warframe's design as a whole, rather than being an active game where you need to constantly be on the move and looking for a chance to attack between dodging enemies bullets you'd wind up with fights where players need to stand in certain places to avoid instant death which would break up the more freeform actions players can take, it would defeat the purpose of all the options players have if they are all shoved to the side for one particular instance of a pass/fail mechanic, which goes against the ENTIRE REST OF THE GAME.

It's great that you like FF14, hell I'm hoping to return to it when the next expansion drops. But Warframe can't just copy/paste the things you like about them, and even if it could, it shouldn't, Warframe and it's devs should do things that play to Warframe's strengths, just like FF14 should be what it is, a traditional trinity MMO.

That's how it should be, Warframe should be Warframe, FF14 should be FF14, Devil May Cry should be Devil May Cry and so on. Every game shouldn't deliver the exact same thing, its market diversity, offering different experiences to different consumer bases, and yes, some games can blend elements together, but only if the elements are actually compatible in the first place.

[(PSN)thowed]

No complex puzzles.  Unfortunately the difficulty of puzzles rest with the teammates you have.  Sorry but a simple task isn't challenging just because other people can't help you do it.  Destiny raids were only fun with a team where everyone knew what they were doing, not waiting on people who couldn't grasp it.  I don't wanna see this in Warframe.

[Sahansral]

Power fantasy, if a raid can‘t provide that, I don‘t need it. Short and simple.

I don‘t miss both old raids one bit. The forced mechanics destroyed immersion and fun - in my opinion.

Railjack looks alot like I want raids to be. Having 6-8 tenno working in a big railjack mission (different tasks in two tenno teams). No puzzles!

Edited March 22, 2019 by Sahansral

[Legion-Shields]

On 2019-03-20 at 11:23 AM, (XB1)RevenantRequiem said:

Raids is one area that DE could learn a lot from Bungie. The raids in Destiny are all pretty good. There are some that are pretty easy to accomplish and ones that still take good communication from skilled teams to complete. I want the raids to come back and actually be challenging as that is what Warframe really lacks.

This.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Legion-Shields

[(PSN)Pumba_Beneator]

Good question.

I personnally never enjoyed raids, as I was always the beginner/noob trying to keep up with the meta team trying to speed run the thing, and trying to contribute to the whole thing the best I could with little success.

For the same reason, I don't enjoy the tridolons slayer teams speed running the Cetus night, even though I can understand the search for performance. But at least, now I can solo a trio, and THAT gave me purpose and required me to strategize, get organized, craft a lot of stuff and gear, test and retry, etc. I enjoy taking new guys from the clan to trio hunting, even if we have a hell of a time finishing the damn thing 🙂

So - I'd propably enjoy a raid that, apart from the inevitable meta speed-runners, could be enjoyed by slower, less structured, groups, and could possibly be done solo after some serious research.

[angias]

Il y a 6 heures, Sahansral a dit :

 

Railjack looks alot like I want raids to be. Having 6-8 tenno working in a big railjack mission (different tasks in two tenno teams). No puzzles!

It's good and all.

At tennocon stream, the railjack operation seemed chalenging but a little bit too straight foward to be an example of raid and would be mastered easily.

So people would not look at replayability but instead the reward. But i believe with some simple addition, that already exist ingame, like a pursuit segment where you have to immobilise the ship permanently or for a time. (Will have to watch that segment again to make proper proposition)

Edited March 22, 2019 by angias

[jfhsanseiIII]

Something that challenges us in n a few ways. 

1) skill in regards to paying attention to the environment. 

2) meta building to best benefit the raid in a way that might see frames being built in a very specific way for one raid but different for another. 

3) an obvious show of progress. If someone can successfully complete a raid then they should be able to show it. Raids should be a thing that challenges skill, coordination, and builds with rewards that reward those who accomplish them.  

[(XBOX)Dic3man]

Steal some from destiny those raids are awesome.

[Xzorn]

Pretty much what I posted in general before it was moved but on a larger scale.

Randomly generated Objectives so the team cannot fully prepare for what comes while progressing along a main goal line. Randomly picked mini-boss encounters with telegraphed attacks that severely punish wrong actions, discourage meta with counter tactics and require the team to actively intercept, cover and aid each other to combat them with 2-3 checkpoint legit Bosses that react and fight in different ways based on the player's actions up to that point. ie Some actions might make the bosses harder or easier.

90% combat mechanics and action. 0% stand here, click that. 0% Ignore mechanics, 0% Damage Gates. 0% QTE, 0% Immune phases.

Punishing yet rewarding consequences. One person screws up; everyone in the raid might have to revive.

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2019-03-20 at 12:29 PM, KiteoHatto said:

That first part sounds like destiny raids and I hate how true it is lol.

 

I also want a good adventure with a boss at the end. I don't want a mission that makes me pull out a notepad so I can jot down all the bullS#&$ mechanics and study it like a damn school lesson.

Agreed.  I want missions that show the HEART and SOUL of Warframe, not the mechanics/maths.    I don't want to wash/rinse/repeat patterns...I want the thrill of running in, guns'a'blazin' with my fellow Tenno, taking on larger-than-life bosses.  The Profit-Taker mission is pretty fun, tbh.  It's like Eidolons on steroids, as I expected it would be, and much more akin to what I wanted out of a Raid than what we used to actually have. 

[Voltage]

On 2019-03-22 at 12:25 AM, LupisV0lk said:

INB4 we are set back at square one and have elitists locking down "raids" because people don't know how to do them and said people are unable to do the raids in order to lean how to do them because of said elitists gatekeeping.

You can't blame elite players for the incompetence and impatience of learning players. Raids had an extensive group of teachers. Wanting rewards and unwilling to learn is a personal issue, not a design issue.

[SenariousNex]

-6-8 players

-Giant thing in a big arena that doesn't have many any invulnerability stages that create artificial time gates.

-Immune to CC abilities

-Enrage timer after 15 minutes that wipes your team out. 

-No revives until out of combat.

-Requires everyone to sustain at least 100k dps to take it down. (It's a raid, not a random mob, it shouldn't die within seconds once it's vulnerable)

-No artificial boss armor that just normalizes your damage like Lephantis. 

-Has mechanic that selectively consumes player buffs for itself to prevent chroma and trin cheesing.

-Dishes out a ton of single target damage, requiring a tank with guardian derision in the group. (Can also stack debuffs forcing tank-swaps honestly there are so many raid mechanics you can straight up steal from WoW)

-Please for the love of god no hack-panels.

-Cannot be completed by random braindead pugs, requires being top tier min-maxed people with communication.

-Lots of cosmetic rewards and non-tradable power rewards that prevent that whole: "Why bother, I'll just buy it, this game is boring" mentality.

-Really make it exclusive to the endgame vets, think Naxxramas from WoW. 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by SenariousNex

[KiteoHatto]

47 minutes ago, SenariousNex said:

-6-8 players

-Giant thing in a big arena that doesn't have many any invulnerability stages that create artificial time gates.

-Immune to CC abilities

-Enrage timer after 15 minutes that wipes your team out. 

-No revives until out of combat.

-Requires everyone to sustain at least 100k dps to take it down. (It's a raid, not a random mob, it shouldn't die within seconds once it's vulnerable)

-No artificial boss armor that just normalizes your damage like Lephantis. 

-Has mechanic that selectively consumes player buffs for itself to prevent chroma and trin cheesing.

-Dishes out a ton of single target damage, requiring a tank with guardian derision in the group. (Can also stack debuffs forcing tank-swaps honestly there are so many raid mechanics you can straight up steal from WoW)

-Please for the love of god no hack-panels.

-Cannot be completed by random braindead pugs, requires being top tier min-maxed people with communication.

-Lots of cosmetic rewards and non-tradable power rewards that prevent that whole: "Why bother, I'll just buy it, this game is boring" mentality.

-Really make it exclusive to the endgame vets, think Naxxramas from WoW. 

 

Sorry,  but that sounds like such a chore.

Don't get why people keep asking for mmo type raids which you need to set aside a day in a looter shooter grind game(which is pick up and play btw).

[SenariousNex]

4 minutes ago, KiteoHatto said:

Sorry,  but that sounds like such a chore.

Don't get why people keep asking for mmo type raids which you need to set aside a day in a looter shooter grind game(which is pick up and play btw).

Because it gives something to look up to and forward to. Casual pick up and play content is great, but if it is all there is, the game feels very luke-warm. Currently there is no feeling in warframe when you are looking at another player and say: "Holy S#&$ that guy is a god", because there is no content that cannot be cleared by a random group that is running a random build.  Eidolons come close, but it just becomes a race of how fast can you can cheese it and how many times you can do it before sun comes up. That is a grind, raids are not supposed to be a grind you spam over and over, that is why they have weekly timelocks in mmorpgs.

[Evil.Eye]

1 hour ago, SenariousNex said:

 

-Cannot be completed by random braindead pugs, requires being top tier min-maxed people with communication.

-Lots of cosmetic rewards and non-tradable power rewards that prevent that whole: "Why bother, I'll just buy it, this game is boring" mentality.

-Really make it exclusive to the endgame vets, think Naxxramas from WoW. 

 

Everything else is fine. But right here. this is why I hate most peoples idea of Raids.

The Irrational Need to Min-max, The EGO required to think that just because it's a PUG that it should be impossible. Good communication and a Mid-High Teir balance should be the only requirement to be passable.

Exclusive cosmetics is fine at a low level but Power ups that Typically become the requirement to even participate being exclusive to the very raid its a part of? no.

And Hard locking it to the "Veterans". who decides a "Veteran"? Is it Based on Time? Amount of weapons? Types of Frames? am i Not a "Veteran" because i don't chase the Most high level of mods or use the strongest meta

This is why i absolutely Hate Raid's and the people who push for this.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Evil.Eye

[SenorClipClop]

I'd like to see Raids have a procedural generation. The original raids were dull and outdated because once you played the Raid once, you'd played it a hundred times. Every mission was the same: bring a few power cells down hallways, stand on this pad and melee block, walk along, unload damage, here's your medal. It was boring and tedious once you knew how it worked, because you always knew every little thing that needed to be done and the best way to do it.

I'd like to see new Raids have an element of surprise to them, and I believe they could do this through gearing procedural generation to randomly chain goals together into a larger mission. Like Sorties, but with all those objectives in one long game. A Trial might start with a Mobile Defense to hack security consoles. When you finish, Lotus instructs you to infiltrate the facility and it's a Spy mission to track the location of an elite Corpus overseer; OR the Lotus tags a Warden who has that information and it's Capture time. Then you proceed to Assassinate the overseer. The idea behind this is that when you approach the mission, subsequent stages in the mission are randomized and you don't know what's waiting for you until you get there. This means that a successful Tenno will need to be ready for anything, and be able to use their Arsenal in ways they might not be expecting, all at a moment's notice. It also means that when you're assembling a team and designating jobs, you won't be asking someone to  play a max-range Vauban for cheesing Stage 2, you'll be asking someone to play a frame they're knowledgeable of in case CC is needed. Crafting squads would, ideally, be less about obligation and more about contingency.

Edited March 23, 2019 by SenorClipClop