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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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1. I don't think I really understood the issue with Itzal. What is the difference to top tier frames and weapons that are the 'best' way to play.

2. My thoughts which might be a little jumbled bc. I just got home from a party:

Itzal is objectively the best at what it does and because WF isn't pvp it doesn't hurt anyone.

You are motivated to go out and experience the poe on a K-Drive? Do it! Nobody is stopping you. If DE wants choice they should make content for neglected stuff, nothing can be perfectly balanced for everything and there will always be the best thing. Amesha is  powerful but nobody cares. If there are parts of your game nobody plays maybe see what can be done to improve it instead of changing the elements people actually play.

If DE wants to force their players into a specific style of play they will lose. Maybe they should ask themselves why people like fast cars in games, or fast spaceships, or Itzal.. maybe because flying over the open worlds is boring? unfun? look at your second monitor time? Here is an idea, make the flying actually exciting, rewarding and dangerous!

They should learn from their players telling them how they like to play their game (not using K-Drives, mostly using Itzal) and use it to make their game better for their players. Instead they try to force people to play the way they 'envisioned'. Trying to make your players fit your game instead of the other way around is not a good idea imho. Nobody will like K-Drives more because Itzal is worse.

You cannot fight human nature and people will always try to get to the rewards faster/easier esp. if they have to repeatedly do the same thing. Players feel a "sense of pride and accomplishment" after they have overcome a challenge and putting them on a timer both figuratively and literally isn't a way to make something challenging. Nobody grades movies on their running time. Who can blame people trying to shorten the mission they are running 100+ times?

Exploiter was interesting bc. gear didn't matter much. But is that healty for warframe on a bigger scale? Just use whatever, it doesn't matter?

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, peterc3 said:

If the only use for Archwings is using Blink on Itzal, that is not really using Archwings, it's a time skip. That's it. DE has to do something to change that.

Air to air combat... I see and do this all the time on battles, especially on protect segments.... I dont even have itzal and i use archwing all the time....they gonna nerf odanota too?sure ill whip out thd e kdrive if i want some resources on the way but slowing down itzal isnt gonna make k drive meta so y slow it down

Edited by (XB1)Tornicade

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Currently, dev don t developp really great contents... They prefer to nerf usefull items, warframe, so players will be forced to play slowly with all basic stuffs... And waste More Time on this game.

Here, it should be better to improve : K drive and other archwings... But it s more easy to nerf... 

Currently, i see and i saw too many nerfs... 

 

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The thing is people would still use the Itzal anyway because it has the best boost speed so nerfing it by removing  blink would accomplish nothing. does no one who develops these games think ahead on these things like the players do or am I imagining things? Also unless K drives became so fast they were borderline uncontrollable but still faster then Archwings they would still see no use. Why you ask...because they can not fly over the massive mountains that exist in the Orb Vallis and would still go unused. The only way they will force K drives on people is if they get rid of the Archwing launcher all together as even the slower Archwings are more desirable then even a max speed K drive and anyone with a brain would know this...

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Posted (edited)

K Drive should fly like archwing with same or better high speed !

Less, it s like to come back on a slow motion nerfed warframe game.

Edited by Svenarx

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I think the boost speed of all archwings should be what itzal blinks at and the normal flight speed should be what itzal boosts at, that way people would actually use more different kinds of archwings. Add to that that that you would ragdoll if you hit things, which would promote safe speeds when flying next to structures as well as being hilarious.

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On 2019-04-05 at 5:42 PM, Aejan said:

They aren't changing Iztal to make K-Drives more appealing, they're changing it to allow for player choice. If you want to get around an open world area, the Iztal is the best choice by a huge margin. If you join a game and you aren't using the Iztal, you get left in the dust. Their intention isn't to slow down open world travel, it's to allow people to pick whatever they want to pick and not be overshadowed by a clearly optimal choice. People shouldn't have to invest all the resources building the Iztal if they don't actually like how it looks or how it fights. 

They aren't going to remove the teleport and leave no compensation. The Iztal will likely get another ability that is just as good or better than the teleport, just one that doesn't make it so that you need to fly the Iztal to play the game "properly". 

The thing is the choice will still be nonexistent unless they nerf the Itzal's speed down to the next slowest fastest Archwing as well. Because guess what...the Itzal stil has the fastest speed and people will still be unable to compete with it's speed anyway. Also the utility of Blink will be gone for normal Archwing missions then as well and it being the fast and sneaky Archwing are out the window. You need to think about this more in depth my dude...

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DE just make it so we can use weapons and maybe ablities on K-Drives. I would definitely use them then.

Nerfing Itzal is logically akin to a doctor amputating your leg when you just have a paper cut on your finger, because your leg was too healthy! Yeah that removed leg would help that little paper cut out so much!

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Just allow us to shoot while on kdrives. This way, while we will still use archwing for traveling between a place to another, players might choose kdrive when they are staying around an area (for bounty / toroid farming) instead of just normal parkour because it is more fun. (Archwing isn't a good choice when the goal is to stay around an area due to all the anti-air weapons from the grineer and corpus.

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On 2019-04-05 at 5:33 PM, Swagernator22663 said:

As someone already said "We going to nerf itzal, so that the k-drive can suck less".

It's a misdirected idea. They just need to make an open world where k-drives shine... maybe Gas City will have poisonous sky that will kill you if you fly. Or a sky full of debris? Or perhaps they could make a Cephalon open world (the Weave) that is completely flat with few obstacles deadly sky or sky with debris?

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57:52 - 58:00

Dev no nerfing because it proves the point K-Drive is not reliable for anything because of you flip and you have to get off in some point and I don't think its really reliable tool for any mission for I am sorry dev I have to say no for nerf, I like you guys but there is a time you have to think wisely instead of improvised every single time that commenting of just nerf it.

I do like wisp a bit of her abilities is kind of nice and unique to be but is it nessary give wisp a death laser sort of remind me from this...

Spoiler

tenor.giftenor.gif?itemid=11539971

 

kind of irony giving her that much power I mean she would op the field because its another death laser and also dbz joke blasting of kamehameha thing...yea bit overkill just imagine increase the range and maxing the power for full dmg and have group of energized battery ppl giving wisp full on tank of energy....yea that would be overkill beam...

 

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Wait... Does ember or Excalibur have the butt plug that the cable is attached to? 

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3 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Wait... Does ember or Excalibur have the butt plug that the cable is attached to? 

yes

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1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Wait... Does ember or Excalibur have the butt plug that the cable is attached to? 

Both. First passenger gets on the back of the Arch Wing and then the second passenger gets on their k drive and fires 2 tow cables.

A second k drive rider can attach to the first k drive rider and so on.

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1 minute ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

Both. First passenger gets on the back of the Arch Wing and then the second passenger gets on their k drive and fires 2 tow cables.

A second k drive rider can attach to the first k drive rider and so on.

Kinky. 

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, (NSW)Sk0rp1on said:

 

*accidental double post*

Edited by 0_The_F00l
Error

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5 hours ago, taiiat said:

but sure, Amseha would be somewhat useful for small invulnerability and 'not Mesmer Skin'. mostly that one, tbh. you still only might see one per Squad, if that.

The Amesha is what I used to use for fighting Eidolons before I got my effectively immortal Inaros, myself. That Archwing is basically unkillable, really good for point defence (which is half of Orb Vallis bounties and a lot of Cetus ones) and it's easily on par with a lot of Warframes, I'd argue.

 

5 hours ago, taiiat said:

anyways whatever the reason for there to be more AA missiles than World War III, it certainly isn't a good one in the current state of things, yes.

Yeah, not arguing that it is. I'm of the opinion that the entire AA mechanic needs to be ripped straight out of the Plains, or at the very least cut down significantly. Have only certain units equipped with those missiles - probably Tusk Bombards - and have them simply deal damage rather than disable the Archwing. That way the Odonata's flare countermeasure ability still has a reason to exist and those guys' mortars aren't completely useless, but they don't also completely shut down Archwing combat altogether.

Very few shooters have proper mix of fully-functional aerial and ground combat. Warframe is one of them. Don't try to curtail Archwing combat in the Plains - build for it instead.

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Sure you could press 4 and kill the small group of enemies right in front of you with Wisp. Or you could press 4 with Saryn and kill everything in the entire room.

Not really seeing how a single focused beam is “overkill”.

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Hey Y'all. After hearing about the idea that Itzal may get it's 1st ability changed I figured I'd make a lil thread outlining a few thoughts on the different transportation options available and my opinions on them. Do be aware these are purely my opinions so they may not reflect everyone. 

Expectations I think people had for K-drive on original concept: 

-Run and gun style, shooting/melee while on the board still. 

-Tony hawks pro skater style trick system, (multiple versions of the same tricks performed in different ways depending on button press, special tricks unlocked with standing. Fluid control system relying on button combo presses and holds to perform tricks)

-Customisable base stats based on what parts you used akin to the kitgun system. (if you want more handling and less speed etc you could do that, or increase accelleration at the cost of handling or max speed etc.)

-More ramps and bowls and grinds in the terrain, half pipes even, rather than trying to find that sort of stuff to play on in the "natural" sort of terrain that doesnt seem to have been built with that sort of fun in mind at all. 

-Vertical movement off terrain rather than purely horizontal for the most part

 

Reasons to use archwing vs k-drive: 

-You can get a height advantage for easier long range sniping.

-You can use the unique archwing skills vs k-drives lack of any skills. 

-Travelling over terrain isn't stopped by small rocks, fences, small ledges etc, and you can fly straight over anything you like pretty much letting you travel in a mostly straight line the whole way to your destination

-Has barrel rolls (aileron rolls?) when you dodge sideways. 

-You can fire from the archwing and keep going

 

Reasons to use k-drive over archwing.

-Tricks

-Look cool-ish while travelling. 

-Don't get weird camera movement  when turning. 

-Dont seem to get immediately knocked off of kdrive by any damage like what happens with archwing

 

Reality:

Honestly couldn't think of any more reasons for the k-drive thing and thats an issue, They don't have skills, they dont let you attack on them, they get stuck on any fence, rock etc unless you jump but even then cannot travel straight over mountains etc like archwings do. This means they're always going to be slower regardless in pure traversing terrain. Given how much terrain is in your way and how easy it is to fall off too  it doesnt feel like increasing their speed even more will do anything for me other than increase the frequency of times I'll smash into something.  

As for tricks you can't reliably perform them in most places because a) you dont get the vertical air that skating games award you via half pipes and bowls etc since we don't have that terrain or movement system (it feels like the majority of the movement directions are horizontal and most flight arch shapes performed are done with the character mostly horizontal unless specifically directed by the player.) 

This said, warframe isn't particularly a skating game, it's mostly a shooter that this skating has been added to so trying to compare a skateboard to a jetpack is a hard ask, given the thousands of meters you have to travel between shooty bits. Personally I dont like the current k-drive system at all given how easy it is to crash and ragdoll off them, among getting shot by random enemy spawns because you're closer to the ground which makes them spawn closer to you usually. If im travelling long distances I just want to get from place to place efficiently since I'd generally be there for a purpose if i have specific areas im aiming to get to. For pure messing around k-drive is fine i guess, but given there's not much to "mess around" doing in the maps where there's only hostile enemies and no hidden side quests, npcs or anything it doesn't particularly feel worth using the boards. At least for me. 

 

Solutions?:

-Let players attack from k-drives

-Make a lot more ramps, halfpipes, and bowls (particularly in the "natural" terrain areas since most things able to be tricked off are mostly just mountain tops or corpus buildings/objects) , and actually make the momentum similar to skating games in that if you go up a halfpipe you can come back down and land on that same pipe. 

-add some skills to k-drives, or maybe allow warframe abilities to be castable from them. 

-Make incentives to use and land tricks off some areas, be it achievements or otherwise. 

-reduce random enemy patrol spawns when travelling by board in secluded areas of the map so you can actually have fun doing tricks etc without having enemies teleport in and blast you all the time

-Speed up archwing in the open worlds and improve their breaking. (they're always going to be the better way to get to places so make that less of a chore) 

 

Anyway, that's my take on it. I don't think itzal needs to be changed as much as k drives purpose needs to be re-defined. 

Thank you for reading ^^ 

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2 hours ago, (XB1)Zweimander said:

The thing is the choice will still be nonexistent unless they nerf the Itzal's speed down to the next slowest fastest Archwing as well. Because guess what...the Itzal stil has the fastest speed and people will still be unable to compete with it's speed anyway. Also the utility of Blink will be gone for normal Archwing missions then as well and it being the fast and sneaky Archwing are out the window. You need to think about this more in depth my dude...

There's a massive difference between being 20% faster than the other Archwings and being 20% faster AND having ~300 meters of instant movement in your pocket at the start of the mission and getting a free 40m teleport every so often while you're flying around. 

The problem isn't that it's the fastest, it's that it's the fastest by such a huge margin that it sets the pace for travel in the open world. Right now, even just flying the Iztal feels slow because of how quick the Blinks let you be. It makes no other Archwing ever worth picking. 

DE isn't just going to remove the ability or nerf it to the ground with no compensation, odds are they are going to replace it with something that is just as good, but doesn't allow you to warp across the open maps. The Iztal and its role will not go "out the window", they'll change into something healthier for the game overall. I expect them to change Iztal's 1 that still allows it to be sneaky and mobile, while also increasing the "super dash" (Sprint + Jump) speed significantly to give all Archwings the speed we're looking for. 

20% extra speed is minor compared to the breakneck speed of Blinking around. There's no problem with it being the fastest by a small margin. Don't tell me I didn't think about it in-depth when you obviously haven't thought about it at all.

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Nerfing the Itzal is a crass overreaction when there's virtually no use for Archwing in the open worlds besides moving from point A to point B. During combat encounters enemies will nearly immediately fire that missile that removes the Archwing making them useless overall. So most players would more than likely consider the use of the Archwing - Speed.

I posit that players had no choice in the matter from the very beginning because of the Archwing removal missile. It will always be better to use a fast Archwing in the open worlds until we are given the freedom of using them for combat situations.

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1 hour ago, BeldarTheBrave said:

Just because the animation is flashy doesn't mean it will actually be powerful. We just don't know yet.

it depends on penteration amount, if it goes though walls (like countless walls) it would just point 1 direction of the hall and whoever behind the door just get vaporized

27 minutes ago, OmegaZero said:

Sure you could press 4 and kill the small group of enemies right in front of you with Wisp. Or you could press 4 with Saryn and kill everything in the entire room.

Not really seeing how a single focused beam is “overkill”.

true, but still Saryn doesn't do whole map so remember that.  certain radius she can do but wisp what is the measurement is her skills with the laser that is the problem I mean I could of took PoE's map and simple measure out it just wisp how long does the laser reach and if wisp reach half the map all she need to do is spin her self around 360 and in the right angle then yea you got another reverent.  No offense it just that pointing the things of the obvious.

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Itzal does not need a nerf, and it's not a good idea to give us more options by making others obsolete.

I agree with a lot of the responses here - I do think Itzal is meta just because it's so effective in open world nodes, in the same vein that's not really a bad thing. I just think other options (K-drive/AW) need to be brought made more appealing with their own strengths.

Currently Archwing is just used to get from point A to point B - Itzal does that very effectively, and there's nothing else that comes close in that regard. But what if DE gave us reasons to use archwings where speed isn't as much of a factor? 

The Flying Eidolon comes to mind, in this regard it might be a better idea to bring a high damage/utility archwing instead of a go-fast archwing. 

---

As far as K-drives go, I think overall they are hurting, and need buffs to mobility and utility - they need to be able to instantly and easily overcome terrain obstacles like mountains in order to compete with archwings. Being able to use weapons and possibly even one handed Warframe abilities would make K-drive much more appealing than they are now.

 

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