Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

[Guest]

Let us shoot with our secondaries on a K drive. I mean come on, it's possible for a space ninja to shoot enemies when doing tricks.

Even better give us stuntpoints for shooting during tricks and doing Michael bay S#&$.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, iLightning13 said:

I think the mechanics of the open world should be changed to accommodate their playstyles more. So I didn't misread you, I argued with the point I actually disagreed with. I agree with your second point.

Even if, for starts, you could carpet bomb and all with AW, Warframe abilities will still get the job done better. Many will still use them as A to B. But getting rid of the one rocket and you are down BS is a key step to making people use other AWs.

The other Archwings flying faster does not mean they can outmanoeuvre Itzal or exceed its A to B speed. If they are going to plod behind the Itzal no one will use them, as I already mentioned.

As much as I rather use Elytron to explode all the enemies, DE doesn't have allowances for this.

[kubbi]

The issue is not Itzal being too good. Its archwing in general that sucks and Itzal provides the abilities that bandaids the issues with archwing. This thread explains it well.

 

[Guest]

Just now, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

I wouldn't mind tbh, Warframe has been my life for the last 5 years where I don't regret a single hour.. but their changes lately kind of make me reconsider.. so, yh.. end me lol

Well DE makes me regret my spent money and 4 years too...

[(PSN)Shustas]

3 hours ago, Ssalem said:

Both the Plains of Eidolon and especially the Orb of Vallis is just simply way to huge, and k-drives are too slow, we have timed missions to get to, spiders and eidolons to reach. Plus, everyone and their mother is equipped with anti-archwing missiles.

If you nerf Itzal, I'm just gonna take my max range/efficiency Nova and sh*t all over the Plains anyway, and get through it in 5 seconds flat.

The issue 👏isn't 👏 Itzal

Amen bro. Leave itzal alone!!! Kdrive for fishing boat!!!

[X4vi0uR]

2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

What a surprise, the Itzal nerf is gonna do exactly what it's intended to, give people MORE OPTIONS! I like how you guys are digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the ground, making the Itzal nerf sound more and more reasonable with each post.

This is plain stupid. The Itzal is supposed to be the stealthy and fast Archwing with low health pool and sub-par offensive abilities. Nerfing it just so "you get more options" is downright saying "you are not allowed to go too fast" in maps that are huge with objectives being timed on the other side of your location.

You know why nobody gives a S#&$ about K-drives? Any Archwing (with no speed mods) is faster than them and in the air you don't have obstacles between point A and point B as you, instead, have on the ground along with most of the enemies. Archwings (even if the Itzal was taken completely out of the game) would still be the better option. Same with frame abilities.

The point of nerfing the Itzal, in the devs' minds, would be to make K-Drives more viable but it's gonna end up being an absolute useless nerf since players will just use the frames. At that point, like somebody else pointed out, you either start nerfing frames' movement abilities and everything else that makes you traverse the environment faster than K-Drives or there's literally no point to this.

You know what would be a simpler solution? Just buff K-Drives, allow players to use weapons and frame abilities on them, make them faster, more responsive and with no chance of the frame falling down from them and make changes to the environments that help players move between keypoints fast even with them, instead of dealing with the vegetations, structures and enemies.

The main point is that the map themselves are no skateparks and are not viable for fast traversal with K-Drives...in a game where players grind for loot and to that end, after the initial time of "oh, this is cool", are gonna devise any possible way to grind faster.

There's a reason for why a META exists and for why only a small part of the contents of the game are constantly being used while others are more niche. Such is the case of K-Drives. Such is the case of the Conclave, Frame Fighter, Fist Weapons and weapons with no range, Low dmg, Low Status guns and Frames who have only CC (Vauban) while the game actively puts enemies that disrupt CC skills.

The option, as with Vauban himself, is to rework and buff the niche thing instead of nerfing everything else. That is taking the option away from me not giving me more options by making everything S#&$.

[(PSN)Ch1b1N1njaGam1ng]

14 hours ago, Pr1A said:

AFAIK they didn't say anything about removing it altogether, just that they feel like Blink should be nerfed or removed because it's pretty much the biggest reason you rarely see anyone use Archwings other than Itzal.

Invisibility is another reason why i picked itzal. It lets me cheese poe riven mod requirements without the stress. Please dont tell me thats getting nerfed...

[FlusteredFerret]

3 hours ago, Ssalem said:

Both the Plains of Eidolon and especially the Orb of Vallis is just simply way to huge, and k-drives are too slow, we have timed missions to get to, spiders and eidolons to reach. Plus, everyone and their mother is equipped with anti-archwing missiles.

If you nerf Itzal, I'm just gonna take my max range/efficiency Nova and sh*t all over the Plains anyway, and get through it in 5 seconds flat.

The issue 👏isn't 👏 Itzal

Well congrats for at least thinking outside the box and coming up with an alternative solution.

To be honest I don't see what people are getting so worked up about. Lots of players still think the majority of Archwings are rubbish and don't use them...refuse to even play Archwing missions.

Its largely pointless using them as attack vehicles because, as you pointed out, all enemies have missiles that will shoot you down very quickly.

Therefore they've been relegated to the role of a fast taxi service to get around open worlds. The devs have deemed this particular one to be OP (or at last too fast) and have stated that they're planning on nerfing it...but have yet to give any details.

Even if its only ends up as fast as an Odonata, thats still more than enough speed to get around...even with time-limited missions.

 

So I really don't get all this outcry about the devs' decision to nerf one particular Archwing. Its equipment that doesn't get used that much anyway and has very limited gameplay value (in the eyes of some people, at least).

 

Jeez...one off-hand comment by Scott and the forum's acting like the world's gonna end...as it does any time a nerf of any kind is announced, it seems...

 

[TeaBegging]

If you want the players to have more variety with their devices to travel why not overall buff the other transporting gear. This worked out well with the universal vacuum.
I don't understand why if something is 'usefull' then lets nerf it mentality. Might as well nerf Nekros since beside him you don't have much variety in survival missions if you want to solo.

I think Itzal is fine as it is. Travelling trough large areas is what made this archwing shine more so in bigger maps. if you remove this functionality it will make travelling trough big maps like the open worlds sluggish and slow.

[FlusteredFerret]

3 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

You know what's funny about these threads? At this point there are just a meme. So why would DE listen to you guys? óÒ

Exactly.

Its hilarious how all the salty kids just completely lose their minds every time one of their favourite frames / weapons / bits of gear gets "re-balanced".

Especially when there have been NO DETAILS released about exactly what the changes will entail.

 

At the moment I'm just like...

 

 

[X4vi0uR]

18 hours ago, Methanoid said:

its more that the itzal overperforms not only vs kdrives but every other archwing, everyone uses the itzal for open world if they have it exactly because it so much better, the movement should be reasonably similar for all archwing without 1 standing out as the defacto must have option.

I mean, Itzal is meant to be fast but having lighter shields and health. It's literally what that Archwing is supposed to do. Nerfing it would be like taking the speed buff away from Volt or the Stealth skills away from Loki and Ivara.

The problem is that, even if they nerf the Itzal, people are not gonna use K-Drives because the maps are huge and to move between objectives Archwings are a much better option because in the air you have no geographic obstacles and barely any enemy, especially if you go to a high altitude.

Also, on archwings you can use your weapons and the archwing's abilities while K-Drives have literally nothing. You can't shoot on a K-Drive and you can't cast any skill. The only thing that comes close to this is when you equip mods that make the K-Drive deal damage and such but they're underwhelming and you have to grind Ventkid Standing.

Literally, anything that could interest players is in the Archwings but not in the K-Drives. They're objectively the worst option at the moment.

Not even mentioning that there are frames like (Max Strenght) Volt or (Max Range) Nova that can traverse said maps even faster without needing to use even K-Drives.

So, really. DE either needs to nerf all of this stuff and angering something like 90% (random number) of the playerbase or, simple solution, just buff the hecking K-Drives.

Give players the option to shoot from them and cast frame abilities or rework the K-Drives and allow them to fly for a certain period of time, make their handling (even in mid-air) better without needing to equip mods on them, give players buffs when using them, rework the maps so that it's more viable to move from point A to point B with K-Drives.

There are many options that they can take that are so much better, objectively, than nerfing stuff that was around from before just because the "new thing" sucks.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

And let's not forget that this situation is being based off of one single game mode, open worlds, and with one single application, long distance travelling. Even more, Itzal's blink is a crutch, and it's the base speed people go for. 

And in other modes, such as the recent thermia fractures, Amesha was the defense meta, not Itzal. When Razorback arrives and you go to Salacia Neptune what do you see most? Amesha for defense, Elytron for nuking. And Railjack didn't even launch yet and we're already trying to nerf Itzal's space tactical advantage since this AW is pretty much the Loki of AW's.

Totally uncalled change that will solve nothing, and that was generated out of K-Drive hype. Newer doesn't always mean better. Different tools for different purposes, it's that simple.

Edited April 6, 2019 by (PS4)Pauloluisx

[Hawner]

hace 4 horas, Variks_Prime dijo:

WHAT personal attacks? Are you just trying to derail the debate? I'm answering you point for point. If you don't want to debate, you don't have to, but I do have facts and experience to counterpoint what you've proposed so far.

Allow me to quote you:

"If you're going to ignore that, of course you're going to have a very skewed view  "

Instead of my reasoning, you are attacking me. That is called a personal attack and I just asked you not to do it anymore. I didn't derail the debate since I did counter your argument and only mentioned that as a "by the way".

 

Since I am on a different page, I can't multiquote you to add to the debate, so this will have to do:

"If you think the archwings don't have themes and synergy, I don't know what to tell you. I can use Amesha well enough I managed to get it to work alright for fractures albeit feeling like I was trudging through molasses for it. It's an extremely defensive set comparable to most of Trinity+Frost in one. Used well, Amesha can actually avoid getting knocked down for long enough to accomplish at least SOMETHING but somehow eventually even without abilities dropping the anti air rockets just ignore the bubble anyways. And they ignore shields and hp for all intents and purposes, too - surely you've experienced that? The reason itzal works is because he moves so fast they don't catch up, and K-Drive can be given the same and thus perform the same. Have you used archwings around a vrush turret, or whatever corpus ground unit acts like one in the vallis? You can build full hp/shield and it still won't matter for long if you aren't constantly moving at itzal speeds.

How, exactly, is, say, Trinity's kit more "themed" or has more "synergy" than Amesha's? Can you explain that?"

 

Trinity Has one theme: healing and being able to heal. The first part is done by using 1 and 4, whereas 2 and 3 are used for the second. The theme is complete.

Itzal has a theme: kill a lot and not be killed. The first part is done by using 3 and 4 while invisible with the 2, and the second part by using 1 and 2 (the first to maneuver quickly and the other to not be targeted. Theme is complete.

The other archwings, as far as I can remember, while having neat abilities (Amesha is my second favorite in that regard, by the way), they don't complement each other as well.

Elytron is supposed to be a DPS if we check the abilities, but while the "killing everything theme" is there, the abilities themselves do not work together. They are one boom, one multiple boom and one big boom. That's it. And the other ability is to avoid projectiles, which is good.

This is what I mean they have no synergy, the abilities don't work with one another. Itzal, and to some degree Amesha too but not much either, does have that synergy.

 

hace 4 horas, DeltaPangaea dijo:

Do recall those delightful near-invisible homing missiles that like every ground enemy seems able to pull out of their arse specifically for archwings which dismount you instantly.

 

hace 4 horas, Variks_Prime dijo:

Exactly. It's like he's never encountered them, somehow. I'm not sure why he's saying what he is. Doesn't make sense based on my experience, which seems to line up with a lot of other peoples'.

I did encounter them and I have been hit by them. They are not invisible, they don't kick you out of your Archwing right away and they are very easy to avoid. Your archwing can be hit at the very least once by them without dismounting you, and you should be smart enough to know that, the moment you feel them hitting you once, it's time to put some distance in between. The moment you are far enough, they aren't a threat, but you are to the fool who dared shoot them at you. And the itzal has a perfect way to counter them that doesn't involve running away: be invisible. simple as that. I don't get bothered by those rockets anymore.

hace 2 horas, TARINunit9 dijo:

And air-to-surface combat is still unviable, both because momentum is totally borked and because half the enemies are allowed to spam anti-air EMP rockets that disable archwing, so it's not like we would suddenly have incentive to play Elytron

Scott needs to suck it up and listen to Rebecca and Steve on this one

Well, they were originally made for space, where their maneuverability is way better. It was obvious that they would have problems on atmospheric situations.

However, with Itzal I have found a way to completely break the momentum: since moving while invisible breaks the ability and is quite hard to completely stop an archwing, when you activate the 2 to become invisible you also stop dead. It can be used as a way to ress a friend by stopping quickly to his location and stopping right there without a problem. ^^

[SenariousNex]

"Itzal is not overperforming" Press 1 and you are there. 

It makes vast plains of Orb Vallis seem as tiny as any other tile, just add a storm mechanic that annihilates you during cold times. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by SenariousNex

[DenisJaguar]

I missed the devstream here but from the post i red. It seem Scott is saying i gonna nerf airplane because they faster compare to cars.

Archwing should be faster compare to k-drive and k-drive should be faster to warframe speed. But if warframe can be faster compare to k-drive. Its easy to know where is the problem.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Spaceland

[nslay]

DE, want to make k-drives better? Make Cephalon Weave, an open Simulacrum-like world with all its flat greatness with few obstacles! For added kicks, you could make the sky deadly or an outright maze (or just add a roof). To stick with lore, we will take on bounties to keep the pesky sentients out of the Weave. And hopefully we can meet more Cephalons?

[Archforge]

- (Wrong comment on post sorry)

Edited April 6, 2019 by Archforge

[Goodwill]

3 hours ago, Jinzanami said:

you gotta lower your hype for Railjack bro, because that thing gonna stink.

and yes good example with Dark souls/Bloodborne, you're not forced to explore them like DE want us to do, you genuinely do so because the world design is so wholesome and polished so even if you have a speed hack you will feel like you're cheating yourself out of the enjoyment of the game, i never feel that way when i use my blink with the valleys and that tell you something.

I can't really lower my hype for Railjack any lower than it is. I have expectations, that's different from hype.

And there are plenty of people who skip all the lore and world-building in Souls/Bloodborne/Sekiro. Most of the videos I watched of it just have people skipping fluff text, cutscenes, and just going from point A to B. I'm sure if they'd have the option, they'd fly over to objectives if such an option was available just so they fight bosses. Face it, people will play the game how they want when given the options.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Goodwill

[Xzorn]

12 hours ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

The real point to nerfing Itzal is so that people equipped with the Amesha, Odonata, or Elytron aren't absolutely left in the dust.  The Itzal is light years ahead of them in terms of speed, and that's the problem.  At the very basic level, Scott does not want there to be a "end all, be all" option for anything.  If such a thing exists, it's broken and needs reined in.

 

They created that condition themselves and they continue to make the same mistakes.

Remember when the slightest damage would knock you out of Archwing? They intended for it to be good for nothing but travel from the start then gradually decided to let them function a little. Yet there's still little reason to layer them into normal frame use.

Take Wolf as a recent example. He's immune to status, immune to CC, Layered DR, Alloy Armor + Alloy Health.

• X  CC
• X  Ability damage
• X  Status weapons
• X  Ability debuff
• X  Finishers
• X  Barriers / Shields
• X  Anything but Radiation Damage

So we are left with. Radiation, Damage buffs, eHP. Hundreds of combinations between frames and weapons reduced to a handful of choices.

They did similar with Eidolons and they'll prolly keep making the same decisions then blaming it on something else.

They need to get to work on Damage 3.0 so the eHP gap, layered DR & Debuffs, Scaling, CC and all this other crap they're desperately trying to avoid in attempts to present challenge can be reeled in and they don't have to resort to these flat out dumb designs.

[Chaosdreamer]

Il y a 4 heures, Gabbynaru a dit :

What a surprise, the Itzal nerf is gonna do exactly what it's intended to, give people MORE OPTIONS! I like how you guys are digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the ground, making the Itzal nerf sound more and more reasonable with each post.

How itzal nerf is going to give more option since you're removing the one people have choose to use?

[Gabbynaru]

Just now, Chaosdreamer said:

How itzal nerf is going to give more option since you're removing the one people have choose to use?

Because Itzal is the only option at the moment. Sure, you lose one by nerfing Itzal, but that brings all other Archwing, as well as Void Dash, Nova and all the other things mentioned in this thread into the fold. -1(Itzal)+6(AW, Void Dash, Nova)=5 new options.

[RX-3DR]

Do recall that Archwings exists beyond just racing against K-Drives to get to a destination. There is a question be had on the functionality of Blink in relation to its effect and cost.

If you think about this, the thought might have originally stemmed from Itzal's function in Railjacks. You see this problem with the Jordas Golem being reduced to nothing from a single Itzal warping behind him constantly or reaching the Formorian in seconds after the mission starts.

[Smilomaniac]

Scott is stubborn and while he makes a decent point, he also hides behind it.

This is what happens when a developer gets arrogant about their work and prioritizes making you play the way he wants you to, rather than letting you use the tools however you want; They start saying things like "enjoy it while it lasts".
I'll bet you that he's the reason it took so long for vaccuum to be universal, because that was supposed to be a "choice". This is no different, it's obvious that players shouldn't spend several minutes travelling across the same map over and over again.

By the way this is a criticism, not an insult. I understand full well when players who are too smart for their own good start messing with what you've created and are effectively mocking you by breaking it over and over again. Eventually you realize that a playerbase is like a natural disaster, you can't really prevent or mitigate it, you just let it pass and rebuild. Also lets not pretend that the warframe playerbase doesn't adore and almost worship its devs and staff.

Back to the archwing: The difference between this and vaccuum was that there was literally no alternative choice. With the itzal you are paying for it with research, materials and a lot of energy AND you have alternatives that might be slower, but are still a hell of a lot faster than walking.

Taking things away from players should not be treated like a joke, I was god damn furious when I saw the stream. I did not put in all the effort into getting and leveling all the archwings to be treated like some sort of entitled child, because I don't want to spend minutes of flight time every time I have to do something in the Vallis.

I didn't wan't the open world areas, I think they're the worst things to happen to the game. PoE burnt me out and so did Fortuna. I came back despite of these places, their idiotic reputation grinds and new materials that invalidated all the time I already invested into the game.

Leveling k-drives, archwings, operator amps and pets/sentinals is less a game feature than an exhausting chore to get a higher MR. Getting all those things requires my precious time and reducing that amount of time to get the things done is a priority. "Enjoy it while it lasts" when I don't always use the itzal (I do actually use the k-drives, even though they're bugged in a couple of ways), is an ignorant and petty thing to say.

Nerf the Itzal if you want, but this will cost you significant goodwill with the playerbase for a petty reason disguised as a "good design" argument. Imagine having spent platinum on it an having this happen to you, good lord...

[Ikusi_Prime]

11 hours ago, SageVonAwesome said:

If they want to make Archwings to be 'good' on open world content they would have to first removed spammable 1-hit-Archwing-KOing homing rockets from literally all the enemies. Without doing that they will always be good only for being taxis.

Without blink Itzal will still be the best taxi because of it's higher base speed, which can be increased with mods. Nerfing/replacing blink does not increase player choice, so regardless of their stated reason such a nerf only slows down the process of traveling around open world maps.

And even if they were joking about K-Drives; K-Drives will always be worse taxis because of ground geometry. If they want players to use them they would need to get rid of the pointless trick mechanics and make them combat capable and faster than walking/bullet jump spamming when in the open world.

I agree that not every enemy should be able to take out an Archwing instantly. Either make the 1-shot rocket only on elites, or make it take several rockets to actually take down the 'wing. 

I'm fine with Iztal being the best taxi, but it shouldn't be the best taxi by such a huge margin. A higher base speed is one thing, but the blinks blow every other Archwing out of the water, to the point where it sets the precedent. 

What I think they should do is drastically increase the speed of "warp speed"  (Shift + Space on PC) for all Archwings, but lock out abilities during it. This would only affect atmospheric usage. Along with changes to the Iztal, this would put every Archwing at the Iztal's level, so travel in the open world areas isn't slowed down as a result of these changes. 

[HexOmega111x]

Il y a 15 heures, Xzorn a dit :

What we have now is one option and one choice. Nerfing said choice won't help. Adding more options will.

Very interesting post but you end it with that. 

You have as many options as you have different archwings and as many possible choices as you are able to imagine /create your own game experience. 

All other archwings are still faster than k-drive that is itself faster than going on foot. Are the few seconds that you gain with itzal the only point that makes players chose the itzal instead of any other possibility? If this is the case, this is more the representation of the players mindsets and the way they play games today than a real lack of alternatives. 

I don't need itzal to enjoy vallis or poe. I never use itzal and I create a different game experience each time I enter poe or vallis with all the other archwings. 

The Itzal case is once again the prove that the way players are playing games today is more about how to not play the game and make everything fast and easy. They enter a mission and just look for the way to end it as fast as possible with nothing between point A and point B. 

More options will be mandatory if they want to make things enjoyable for that kind of players. I agree on that.