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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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I personally absolutely hate Void Dash and other "teleporting" abilities like them. While they're quick for travel in some circumstances, they completely lack any sort of sense of speed. As old Need 4 Speed games showed us by counter-intuitively blurring the world at high speed, presentation matters often far more so than actual ground speed. I personally vastly prefer travelling via Archwing Boost than via any kind of teleportation or blink or whatever else. The sense of speed is far more prominent and the travel time is fairly minimal. I can survive taking 10-20 seconds to get from point to point.

That said...

 

36 minutes ago, GinKenshin said:

One reason I don’t prefer KD is how restricting they are. They only revolve around OV and if you want to make them better, you have to spend all your time there. Now this makes sense lore wise but it’s really annoying gameplay wise 

Absolutely true. The K-Drive progression system is utter nonsense. You get a S#&$ K-Drive which can't level up or use mods, which you then have to grind most prominently by doing circles at the Pearl, so you can buy a S#&$ K-Drive that CAN level up, which you then have to grind some more to eventually get some mods to make it borderline usable. You can't use the sodding things anywhere but Orb Vallis and the Plains of Eidolon despite other instances having plenty of room, you can't gain affinity by using them for travel (tricks are always slower than straight-line speed) and they're not all that good even when fully-upgraded. DE's approach of giving us utter garbage and tasking us with a boring grind to upgrade it into basic functionality is not good.

 

3 hours ago, taiiat said:

only one Archwing is about Mobility, and Archwings CANNOT participate in Combat since literally every single Enemy has a personal SAM site in their pocket and there's emplaced AA around everywhere too. Amesha maybe if that invulnerability + Damage instance ignoring like Mesmer Skin will protect it from being shot down? haven't tried.

That too. It's pretty clear that DE don't want us using Archwings for combat in Free Roam zones. Eidolon fights are the only exception, and I suspect only by omission. My guess about the reasoning is two-fold. Firstly, DE's original design for Free Roam Archwings was to make them a heavily regulated resource via the use of Launcher charges. As such, enemies who shoot you out of your Archwing and burn a charge make sense, from an "A****** design" point of view. They also solve the issue of players wanting to jump out of their Archwings and back in only temporarily burning a charge, since they'll be losing charges in normal combat anyway.

My backup guess is DE meant to obfuscate just how little Archwing content there is. Archwings are pretty strong, and the Amesha can make players outright invincible on the Plains between its support ability and keeping players out of melee/bombardment range. Giving us permanent Archwings would reduce "Warframe" variety in the Plains down to just the four Archwings and further down to just two, since players would likely use their Archwings over their own Warframes. Having enemies shoot us out of our Archwings forces us to use the far more varied Warframes, thus sidestepping the fact that we have FOUR Archwings after all these years.

Broadly speaking, though, AA missiles need to either be removed or made susceptible to Archwing abilities. Odonata Flares, Amesha invulnerability/shield/drones, etc. Let us fight from our Archwings, even if that means we use them predominantly over our Warframes. There's plenty of content where Archwings wouldn't work due to the tight quarters, so if players want permanent flight then #*!%ING LET US! And if range is an issue, add aerial enemies to those maps. The game already has plenty of flying enemies available in Archwing missions, just have Tusk and Terra versions of those. Give ground players some reason to consider AA ourselves, give Archiwng players actual dogfights to take part in. AA missiles are the single greatest problem with Archwings in open-world maps, as far as I'm concerned.

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3 hours ago, Drachnyn said:

Ther is nothing to do between two bounty points. Slowing down achieves nothing and Kdrives would still be worthless. 

Random question: What's the point of having an open-world map in the first place if all the openness adds is a commute?

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6 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

Isn't the point of archwings that they all have distinct playstyles though? Just like how Frost P has 0.95 speed but Equinox P has 1.2 speed?

Give Elytron the ability to move quickly, then that gives it speed and offence, where itzal doesn't have that. If we stick speed on all the other archwings, then logically itzal should get all the offensive traits of the other archwings too. Maybe shove in amesha's survivability into all the other ones too? That just homogenises all of them and they'll all be the same.

Itzal is good at traversal. That's because it's the fast archwing. It's also rubbish at surviving and dealing damage. That'd be clear if archwing missions were any good. If they nerf itzal before they release the archwing rework, it'll have no use in either archwing missions OR in the open world.

Itzal will still be faster and can blink. Itzal will still be invisible. Itzal will still have cosmic crush.

Elytron could do with a good sustained speed, which is very different from blink. It is more straight line. Odonata could also do well with that.

You completely ignore the second half. I clearly said "no Itzal nerfs". Your ability to misread is strong.

I am arguing against nerfs and you seem to be shooting the wrong target, pal.

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9 minutes ago, iLightning13 said:

Isn't the point of archwings that they all have distinct playstyles though? Just like how Frost P has 0.95 speed but Equinox P has 1.2 speed?

Give Elytron the ability to move quickly, then that gives it speed and offence, where itzal doesn't have that. If we stick speed on all the other archwings, then logically itzal should get all the offensive traits of the other archwings too. Maybe shove in amesha's survivability into all the other ones too? That just homogenises all of them and they'll all be the same.

Itzal is good at traversal. That's because it's the fast archwing. It's also rubbish at surviving and dealing damage. That'd be clear if archwing missions were any good. If they nerf itzal before they release the archwing rework, it'll have no use in either archwing missions OR in the open world.

what you said would make sense if de actually let us use our archwing for combat in open world. they do not, so anything thats not as fast as itzal is just inferior to it.

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Lion said:

Scott has made it clear he wants to nerf Itzal because K-Drive sucks.

In my opinion, Itzal is not overperforming, K-Drive is just underperforming. Heck I can outrun a K-Drive with Loki.

Please just buff K-Drive and call it good.

 

First off...K-Drive doesn't "suck". You're comparing apples with oranges. Two very different modes of transport with different purposes, to suit different play styles.

 

Secondly, worry about the Archwing nerf as and when it happens. Pointless speculating and crying over something when you don't even know exactly what they plan to do with it.

 

And no, I'm not a K-Drive fanboi. I don't really have a preference. I probably use my K-Drive more for general getting around, but prefer using the Archwing for covering very long distances quickly, or getting to hard-to-reach locations.

 

Edited by FlusteredFerret

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1 minute ago, Steel_Rook said:

Random question: What's the point of having an open-world map in the first place if all the openness adds is a commute?

Equally random question: Why wasn't anything added except for the commute?

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1 minute ago, FlusteredFerret said:

First off...K-Drive doesn't "suck". You're comparing apples with oranges. Two very different modes of transport with different purposes, to suit different play styles.

 

Secondly, worry about the Archwing nerf as and when it happens. Pointless speculating and crying over something when you don't even know exactly what they plan to do with it.

 

you gotta make them hear us ''load and clear'' in reddit and official forum and twitter because theres no freaking way the rebbeca and the rest of the team didnt discuses this with scott, they're reaction to scott was fake, they're testing the water and we gotta show them the water is roaring and will take no bs up its rear.

remember the carrier vacuum ? we asked them for years to make it unviresal so we cn use it with our cats and dogs and even deathcube, no response.

but once they did accepted then what did we get ? a nerfed version that nobody asked for, people might even prefered to keep vacuum as is if they foreseen DE crap.

and i can see the same thing happening with Itzal, the reason we heard about it now is because of the POA remaster, they want us to walk that place on our foot to inspect every rock and tree and body of water that they ''reworked'' and be amazed, but this sht get old the second time and nobody get time for that so they dont like it, they want itzal blink gone to make our framing even more miserable for no reason but to please themselves, only them win if this happen.

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Just now, Datam4ss said:

Itzal will still be faster and can blink. Itzal will still be invisible. Itzal will still have cosmic crush.

Elytron could do with a good sustained speed, which is very different from blink. It is more straight line. Odonata could also do well with that.

You completely ignore the second half. I clearly said "no Itzal nerfs". Your ability to misread is strong.

I am arguing against nerfs and you seem to be shooting the wrong target, pal.

From what I understood from your comment, you implied that the other archwings' speed should be buffed. I disagree with that, as I think the mechanics of the open world should be changed to accommodate their playstyles more. So I didn't misread you, I argued with the point I actually disagreed with. I agree with your second point.

22 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

Also, the EMP rockets on open world needs to go. There is no point using Archwing for anything outside of speed if they are all equally papery. Make Elytron and Odonata able to actually rain death from above while not dying. Make Amesha as indestructible as it is in Archwing missions.

This part of your comment I agree with. This'd be a good way of fixing it but that's as far as it needs to go. There's no need to make elytron/odonata faster because that's not what its intended playstyle is. Blowing stuff up is what it's good for, so that's what needs to be improved in the open worlds. As for speed, stick hyperion thrusters on it.

 

5 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

what you said would make sense if de actually let us use our archwing for combat in open world. they do not, so anything thats not as fast as itzal is just inferior to it.

I agree with this. The way open worlds interact with archwing needs looking at as the only point of using them at the moment is to zip around the map.

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Let us shoot with our secondaries on a K drive. I mean come on, it's possible for a space ninja to shoot enemies when doing tricks.

Even better give us stuntpoints for shooting during tricks and doing Michael bay S#&$.

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1 minute ago, iLightning13 said:

I think the mechanics of the open world should be changed to accommodate their playstyles more. So I didn't misread you, I argued with the point I actually disagreed with. I agree with your second point.

Even if, for starts, you could carpet bomb and all with AW, Warframe abilities will still get the job done better. Many will still use them as A to B. But getting rid of the one rocket and you are down BS is a key step to making people use other AWs.

The other Archwings flying faster does not mean they can outmanoeuvre Itzal or exceed its A to B speed. If they are going to plod behind the Itzal no one will use them, as I already mentioned.

As much as I rather use Elytron to explode all the enemies, DE doesn't have allowances for this.

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The issue is not Itzal being too good. Its archwing in general that sucks and Itzal provides the abilities that bandaids the issues with archwing. This thread explains it well.

 

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb Datam4ss:

Maybe they should take your life next? 😂 

When everyone loses, there is no winner.

 

I wouldn't mind tbh, Warframe has been my life for the last 5 years where I don't regret a single hour.. but their changes lately kind of make me reconsider.. so, yh.. end me lol

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Just now, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

I wouldn't mind tbh, Warframe has been my life for the last 5 years where I don't regret a single hour.. but their changes lately kind of make me reconsider.. so, yh.. end me lol

Well DE makes me regret my spent money and 4 years too...

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3 hours ago, Ssalem said:

Both the Plains of Eidolon and especially the Orb of Vallis is just simply way to huge, and k-drives are too slow, we have timed missions to get to, spiders and eidolons to reach. Plus, everyone and their mother is equipped with anti-archwing missiles.

If you nerf Itzal, I'm just gonna take my max range/efficiency Nova and sh*t all over the Plains anyway, and get through it in 5 seconds flat.


The issue 👏isn't 👏 Itzal

Amen bro. Leave itzal alone!!! Kdrive for fishing boat!!!

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2 hours ago, Gabbynaru said:

What a surprise, the Itzal nerf is gonna do exactly what it's intended to, give people MORE OPTIONS! I like how you guys are digging yourselves deeper and deeper into the ground, making the Itzal nerf sound more and more reasonable with each post.

This is plain stupid. The Itzal is supposed to be the stealthy and fast Archwing with low health pool and sub-par offensive abilities. Nerfing it just so "you get more options" is downright saying "you are not allowed to go too fast" in maps that are huge with objectives being timed on the other side of your location.

You know why nobody gives a S#&$ about K-drives? Any Archwing (with no speed mods) is faster than them and in the air you don't have obstacles between point A and point B as you, instead, have on the ground along with most of the enemies. Archwings (even if the Itzal was taken completely out of the game) would still be the better option. Same with frame abilities.

The point of nerfing the Itzal, in the devs' minds, would be to make K-Drives more viable but it's gonna end up being an absolute useless nerf since players will just use the frames. At that point, like somebody else pointed out, you either start nerfing frames' movement abilities and everything else that makes you traverse the environment faster than K-Drives or there's literally no point to this.

You know what would be a simpler solution? Just buff K-Drives, allow players to use weapons and frame abilities on them, make them faster, more responsive and with no chance of the frame falling down from them and make changes to the environments that help players move between keypoints fast even with them, instead of dealing with the vegetations, structures and enemies.

The main point is that the map themselves are no skateparks and are not viable for fast traversal with K-Drives...in a game where players grind for loot and to that end, after the initial time of "oh, this is cool", are gonna devise any possible way to grind faster.

There's a reason for why a META exists and for why only a small part of the contents of the game are constantly being used while others are more niche. Such is the case of K-Drives. Such is the case of the Conclave, Frame Fighter, Fist Weapons and weapons with no range, Low dmg, Low Status guns and Frames who have only CC (Vauban) while the game actively puts enemies that disrupt CC skills.

The option, as with Vauban himself, is to rework and buff the niche thing instead of nerfing everything else. That is taking the option away from me not giving me more options by making everything S#&$.

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14 hours ago, Pr1A said:

AFAIK they didn't say anything about removing it altogether, just that they feel like Blink should be nerfed or removed because it's pretty much the biggest reason you rarely see anyone use Archwings other than Itzal.

Invisibility is another reason why i picked itzal. It lets me cheese poe riven mod requirements without the stress. Please dont tell me thats getting nerfed...

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3 hours ago, Ssalem said:

Both the Plains of Eidolon and especially the Orb of Vallis is just simply way to huge, and k-drives are too slow, we have timed missions to get to, spiders and eidolons to reach. Plus, everyone and their mother is equipped with anti-archwing missiles.

If you nerf Itzal, I'm just gonna take my max range/efficiency Nova and sh*t all over the Plains anyway, and get through it in 5 seconds flat.


The issue 👏isn't 👏 Itzal

Well congrats for at least thinking outside the box and coming up with an alternative solution.

To be honest I don't see what people are getting so worked up about. Lots of players still think the majority of Archwings are rubbish and don't use them...refuse to even play Archwing missions.

Its largely pointless using them as attack vehicles because, as you pointed out, all enemies have missiles that will shoot you down very quickly.

Therefore they've been relegated to the role of a fast taxi service to get around open worlds. The devs have deemed this particular one to be OP (or at last too fast) and have stated that they're planning on nerfing it...but have yet to give any details.

Even if its only ends up as fast as an Odonata, thats still more than enough speed to get around...even with time-limited missions.

 

So I really don't get all this outcry about the devs' decision to nerf one particular Archwing. Its equipment that doesn't get used that much anyway and has very limited gameplay value (in the eyes of some people, at least).

 

Jeez...one off-hand comment by Scott and the forum's acting like the world's gonna end...as it does any time a nerf of any kind is announced, it seems...

 

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If you want the players to have more variety with their devices to travel why not overall buff the other transporting gear. This worked out well with the universal vacuum.
I don't understand why if something is 'usefull' then lets nerf it mentality. Might as well nerf Nekros since beside him you don't have much variety in survival missions if you want to solo.

I think Itzal is fine as it is. Travelling trough large areas is what made this archwing shine more so in bigger maps. if you remove this functionality it will make travelling trough big maps like the open worlds sluggish and slow.

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3 hours ago, WhiteMarker said:

You know what's funny about these threads? At this point there are just a meme. So why would DE listen to you guys? óÒ

Exactly.

Its hilarious how all the salty kids just completely lose their minds every time one of their favourite frames / weapons / bits of gear gets "re-balanced".

Especially when there have been NO DETAILS released about exactly what the changes will entail.

 

At the moment I'm just like...

 

Image result for eating popcorn meme

 

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18 hours ago, Methanoid said:

its more that the itzal overperforms not only vs kdrives but every other archwing, everyone uses the itzal for open world if they have it exactly because it so much better, the movement should be reasonably similar for all archwing without 1 standing out as the defacto must have option.

I mean, Itzal is meant to be fast but having lighter shields and health. It's literally what that Archwing is supposed to do. Nerfing it would be like taking the speed buff away from Volt or the Stealth skills away from Loki and Ivara.

The problem is that, even if they nerf the Itzal, people are not gonna use K-Drives because the maps are huge and to move between objectives Archwings are a much better option because in the air you have no geographic obstacles and barely any enemy, especially if you go to a high altitude.

Also, on archwings you can use your weapons and the archwing's abilities while K-Drives have literally nothing. You can't shoot on a K-Drive and you can't cast any skill. The only thing that comes close to this is when you equip mods that make the K-Drive deal damage and such but they're underwhelming and you have to grind Ventkid Standing.

Literally, anything that could interest players is in the Archwings but not in the K-Drives. They're objectively the worst option at the moment.

Not even mentioning that there are frames like (Max Strenght) Volt or (Max Range) Nova that can traverse said maps even faster without needing to use even K-Drives.

So, really. DE either needs to nerf all of this stuff and angering something like 90% (random number) of the playerbase or, simple solution, just buff the hecking K-Drives.

Give players the option to shoot from them and cast frame abilities or rework the K-Drives and allow them to fly for a certain period of time, make their handling (even in mid-air) better without needing to equip mods on them, give players buffs when using them, rework the maps so that it's more viable to move from point A to point B with K-Drives.

There are many options that they can take that are so much better, objectively, than nerfing stuff that was around from before just because the "new thing" sucks.

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Posted (edited)

And let's not forget that this situation is being based off of one single game mode, open worlds, and with one single application, long distance travelling. Even more, Itzal's blink is a crutch, and it's the base speed people go for. 

And in other modes, such as the recent thermia fractures, Amesha was the defense meta, not Itzal. When Razorback arrives and you go to Salacia Neptune what do you see most? Amesha for defense, Elytron for nuking. And Railjack didn't even launch yet and we're already trying to nerf Itzal's space tactical advantage since this AW is pretty much the Loki of AW's.

Totally uncalled change that will solve nothing, and that was generated out of K-Drive hype. Newer doesn't always mean better. Different tools for different purposes, it's that simple.

Edited by (PS4)Pauloluisx
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hace 4 horas, Variks_Prime dijo:

WHAT personal attacks? Are you just trying to derail the debate? I'm answering you point for point. If you don't want to debate, you don't have to, but I do have facts and experience to counterpoint what you've proposed so far.

Allow me to quote you:

"If you're going to ignore that, of course you're going to have a very skewed view  "

Instead of my reasoning, you are attacking me. That is called a personal attack and I just asked you not to do it anymore. I didn't derail the debate since I did counter your argument and only mentioned that as a "by the way".

 

Since I am on a different page, I can't multiquote you to add to the debate, so this will have to do:

"If you think the archwings don't have themes and synergy, I don't know what to tell you. I can use Amesha well enough I managed to get it to work alright for fractures albeit feeling like I was trudging through molasses for it. It's an extremely defensive set comparable to most of Trinity+Frost in one. Used well, Amesha can actually avoid getting knocked down for long enough to accomplish at least SOMETHING but somehow eventually even without abilities dropping the anti air rockets just ignore the bubble anyways. And they ignore shields and hp for all intents and purposes, too - surely you've experienced that? The reason itzal works is because he moves so fast they don't catch up, and K-Drive can be given the same and thus perform the same. Have you used archwings around a vrush turret, or whatever corpus ground unit acts like one in the vallis? You can build full hp/shield and it still won't matter for long if you aren't constantly moving at itzal speeds.

How, exactly, is, say, Trinity's kit more "themed" or has more "synergy" than Amesha's? Can you explain that?"

 

Trinity Has one theme: healing and being able to heal. The first part is done by using 1 and 4, whereas 2 and 3 are used for the second. The theme is complete.

Itzal has a theme: kill a lot and not be killed. The first part is done by using 3 and 4 while invisible with the 2, and the second part by using 1 and 2 (the first to maneuver quickly and the other to not be targeted. Theme is complete.

The other archwings, as far as I can remember, while having neat abilities (Amesha is my second favorite in that regard, by the way), they don't complement each other as well.

Elytron is supposed to be a DPS if we check the abilities, but while the "killing everything theme" is there, the abilities themselves do not work together. They are one boom, one multiple boom and one big boom. That's it. And the other ability is to avoid projectiles, which is good.

This is what I mean they have no synergy, the abilities don't work with one another. Itzal, and to some degree Amesha too but not much either, does have that synergy.

 

hace 4 horas, DeltaPangaea dijo:

Do recall those delightful near-invisible homing missiles that like every ground enemy seems able to pull out of their arse specifically for archwings which dismount you instantly.

 

hace 4 horas, Variks_Prime dijo:

Exactly. It's like he's never encountered them, somehow. I'm not sure why he's saying what he is. Doesn't make sense based on my experience, which seems to line up with a lot of other peoples'.

I did encounter them and I have been hit by them. They are not invisible, they don't kick you out of your Archwing right away and they are very easy to avoid. Your archwing can be hit at the very least once by them without dismounting you, and you should be smart enough to know that, the moment you feel them hitting you once, it's time to put some distance in between. The moment you are far enough, they aren't a threat, but you are to the fool who dared shoot them at you. And the itzal has a perfect way to counter them that doesn't involve running away: be invisible. simple as that. I don't get bothered by those rockets anymore.

hace 2 horas, TARINunit9 dijo:

And air-to-surface combat is still unviable, both because momentum is totally borked and because half the enemies are allowed to spam anti-air EMP rockets that disable archwing, so it's not like we would suddenly have incentive to play Elytron

Scott needs to suck it up and listen to Rebecca and Steve on this one

Well, they were originally made for space, where their maneuverability is way better. It was obvious that they would have problems on atmospheric situations.

However, with Itzal I have found a way to completely break the momentum: since moving while invisible breaks the ability and is quite hard to completely stop an archwing, when you activate the 2 to become invisible you also stop dead. It can be used as a way to ress a friend by stopping quickly to his location and stopping right there without a problem. ^^

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Posted (edited)

"Itzal is not overperforming" Press 1 and you are there. 

It makes vast plains of Orb Vallis seem as tiny as any other tile, just add a storm mechanic that annihilates you during cold times. 

Edited by SenariousNex

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Posted (edited)

I missed the devstream here but from the post i red. It seem Scott is saying i gonna nerf airplane because they faster compare to cars.

Archwing should be faster compare to k-drive and k-drive should be faster to warframe speed. But if warframe can be faster compare to k-drive. Its easy to know where is the problem.

Edited by Spaceland
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DE, want to make k-drives better? Make Cephalon Weave, an open Simulacrum-like world with all its flat greatness with few obstacles! For added kicks, you could make the sky deadly or an outright maze (or just add a roof). To stick with lore, we will take on bounties to keep the pesky sentients out of the Weave. And hopefully we can meet more Cephalons?

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