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Archwing Variety Fix (Itzal Nerf), K-Drive problems

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Ooof. Saying what needs to be said right in the title. The other archwings work fine in non-free-roam content (they actually all have useful niches there already,) but the EMP rockets make them almost irrelevant to free roam, so the EMP rockets pretty much have to be removed for people to use different archwings.

I managed to use Amesha for Thermia a bit, so I can fill in that bit - it half works. Even with max range, the 4, 2, and 1 up constantly, full health/armor/shield mods, energy at 100ish or below, all constantly, it will give you about 2-3 minutes of blocked EMPs on average before one gets through anyways. Go figure. That's with EVERY trick in the book up. Total invulnerability on extreme levels and there's still something - a glitch? where it just knocks you out of Amesha anyways, and that cancels all your abilities so you have to re-cast everything once you get back into AW in the first place. SUPER annoying. I would never bother using it for normal bounties or anything else in free roam, but because Thermia is a group activity and I could leave the can-ferrying to an Itzal in the group, it sort of works there as a half decent clutch option, IF you fully max out everything. Only even semi-viable application I've personally found for a non-Itzal archwing in free roam with the EMP as it is, which is honestly extremely sad. The EMP has got to be toned down or given stronger counterplays.

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Posted (edited)

What I can say is they can nerf Itzal all they want but it doesn't make players use K-drive. At worst we will just switch to Amesha which is the second fastest Archwing.

Like seriously as long as K-drive is slower than an Archwing and constantly throw you off the board with a slightest bump, nobody will prefer K-drive over Archwings. Even K-drive has double the speed navigating in a clear sky is much more convenient.

Edited by Marvelous_A
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1 hour ago, Steel_Rook said:

The Amesha is what I used to use for fighting Eidolons before I got my effectively immortal Inaros, myself. That Archwing is basically unkillable, really good for point defence (which is half of Orb Vallis bounties and a lot of Cetus ones) and it's easily on par with a lot of Warframes, I'd argue.

 

Have only certain units equipped with those missiles - probably Tusk Bombards - and have them simply deal damage rather than disable the Archwing. That way the Odonata's flare countermeasure ability still has a reason to exist and those guys' mortars aren't completely useless, but they don't also completely shut down Archwing combat altogether.

Don't try to curtail Archwing combat in the Plains - build for it instead.

yeah, Amesha is a viable option for Eidolon Hunting for just surviving - it's not efficient but it works. for some of the Bounty Objectives it'd also call it just viable.

or possibly even a dedicated Enemy Type? that way it could potentially look cooler.
the AA Turrets can be left ofcourse, since those are in predictable positions and large enough that you could see it before it's too late. we have Enemies with Archwing Weapons on Venus, so we could have them on Earth, too? 

but yeah, make it a real feature rather than preventing us using it! it'd make the game better overall.

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1 hour ago, Lion said:

The Flying Eidolon comes to mind, in this regard it might be a better idea to bring a high damage/utility archwing instead of a go-fast archwing. 

First of all they should give AWs proper durability. Currently all AWs act like they are made of paper and can't take even a few 9mm rounds. We relies on our weapons for damage output too so only Amesha and Itzal are useful coz they do what our weapons can't do.

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Posted (edited)

For one I don't like K-drive coz I learnt driving from GTA series and every time the slight bump occurs I get immediately thrown off the damn board. 

From both skywings and K-drive there is only one thing we desire - speed coz:

>Skywings are made of paper and they are not practical in combat

>K-drives don't provide any offensive power at all

>We get little aerial combat

>Even if there is aerial combat shooting from ground is much easier and you don't need to worry about survivablity

We already did tons of damage with our own weapons so a DPS-based archwings are pretty much unnecessary. There goes Elytron and Odonata.

K-drives are land based and just like what I said you get thrown off all the time easily. AWs however allow you to navigate aerially and there aren't any obstacles.

They replace K-drives perfectly without any function loss.

I don't see why it takes DE that much of time to realize the problem of current AWs and K-drive.

Edited by Marvelous_A

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Posted (edited)

Archwing balance aside, I believe K-Drive has the potential to become much more useful if they allow us to use at least some weapons and tools in it. K-Drive will never be as fast as Archwing, because even if it had exactly the same speed it would have to go around rough terrain. However, it is pretty good for skimming terrain fast while Archwing flying low is extremely awkward. That gives it many possibilities, if DE gives it some adjusts:

  • Allowing Loot Radar and Vacuum would make it very useful to gather random destructible resources on the Plains or Orb Vallis, especially if Cetus Wisps can be picked up.
  • Allowing Mining Lasers can help with faster mining runs
  • Allowing Fishing Spears can help by letting you hover right over the place where the fishes are appearing, rather than being limited to nearby land and rocks
  • If you can use any weapon, that allows you to fight spread out enemies more effectively, to defend and to attack mobile targets

Particularly I think K-Drives could complement melee weapons on Open World maps very well. I'd imagine they don't mean for us to be riding and fighting from them all the time, but because enemies are often far apart in the Plains and Orb Vallis, it is more difficult to melee them effectively. But it could work out if we could rush and slice them from the boards... which would be pretty cool!

Edited by TwilightVulpine

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I like the idea of attacking on boards but as to "speed up archwing" I'm just gonna assume this was a type to speed up k drive which yes they do but either way archwing will still be better. What they probly need is probly some k drive dedicated bounty or mission. Maybe connect all the underground areas for underground tunnel missions would probly be alot of work tho. Maybe actual race mission that involve going from point to point while fighting enemies on their own kind of vehicles. Or they could take the lazy route of adding a mission where you can't use archwing but give more standing/reward. Personally I'm tired of pointless new modes when there still so much that the game needs fixing/update but that's the only way I could really see them useful. 

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4 hours ago, TwilightVulpine said:

Archwing balance aside, I believe K-Drive has the potential to become much more useful if they allow us to use at least some weapons and tools in it.

that is an aspect i didn't cover here but yes, Hoverboards now allowing us to do anything while using them is a further reason as to why they are rarely used.

just like how Spectral Scream (Chroma) is never used - because the Tools it takes away, are far, far, far, far more valuable than what you gain access to.

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DE is not needing Itzal to favor kdrives. They want to nerf it to favor other archwings. 

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2 minutes ago, Sandomere said:

DE is not needing Itzal to favor kdrives. They want to nerf it to favor other archwings. 

I know it's probably DE's opinion and not yours, but it's flawed logic. Other archings are useless because there are no missions to complement their skills (much like there's no mission / enemy to complement titania's skills. She can dish out a lot of damage on single targets, but that's only needed on bosses where other frames can out-do her by a significant margin).

  • Odanta is outright useless. It feels like a nerfed of Elytron and Sasha. Idk why anybody would use it in any circumsstances
  • Elytron's damage can be outdone by any arching weapon and even itzal's 3 (this is really curious). I'd love to use it on plains or orb vallis, but I can do more damage with a poorly modded secondary weapon than I will do with a fully forma'ed Elytron!
  • Amesha is awesome (I mean I did use it for immunity on eidolons for some time), but again no missions that actually needs it

Take away speed (movement and blink) from Itzal and it will turn into a squishier Elytron, which only has 1 thing going for it. AoE loot....

If you want to get people to play other archwings, give them a use. Make some missions that require Amesha's defense. Boost Elytron's maximum damage output, so I can't kill 20 enemies with any archgun, before elytron kills 5 with skills. Odanta.... Idk I think it would require an overhaul to be useful. I don't recall a single skill that I would use it for.

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12 hours ago, Methanoid said:

you are trying to make it sound like the itzal trades shields/hp for some form of magic dodging or evasion via that speed which it does not, its "1" is only used to cheese straight line movement, typically in open world, it doesnt use that ability to try and evade damage thsu saving its low shields/hp.

It also hasnt had its speed taken away, its still got the highest base speed of all archwing which is further enhanced with hyperion thrusters.

But it does. It has low hp and shields compared to other archwings and has 1 and 2 as defensive and maneuvering skills allowing player to blink through or hide from enemies and projectiles. It also has the highest base speed because the Itzal (as it was first thought of for Archwing missions) is supposed to be exactly that: a stealthy high speed Archwing.

I'm saying that the Itzal has mobility as its strong suit. The blink ability of the Itzal is just that: high mobility traded with little to no offensive or defensive capability. The Itzal was thought first and foremost for the Archwing space missions so it makes absolutely sense to have that ability in those missions to move rapidly through meteorite debris and away from exploding Phomorians.

On big maps like Plains of Eidolon and Orb Vallis the blink ability is still absolutely fine. It is the most efficient option to go from point A to point B. My point is, nerfing it like putting the blink on a cooldown sounds ok...removing the blink, reducing its speed is absolutely stupid.

Also, the point of the Itzal nerf is to make people more likely to use K-Drives but that just isn't gonna happen. Somebody else pointed this out already: all of the Archwings are more efficient options than the K-Drives (since by flying you have no geographic obstacles allowing you to move between keypoints in a straight line while with the K-Drives you have to take many detours) and some frame abilities too (Volt Speed Buff and Nova's Blink). So, they either need to nerf all of this stuff next or people are still not gonna use K-Drives.

All in all, I don't see the point in the nerf altogether. If players want to be ultra efficient allow them to use Itzal with its blink constantly to move through the map in seconds, nothing is stopping other players from using the K-Drives (even though they're objectively the worst way to move around) or even traverse the maps by walking if they prefer to do so.

By nerfing the Itzal, I personally think, they risk of taking an option away from players and the nerf direction itself is stupid IMHO. Personally, I think they should just buff K-Drives. Make them more fun and faster to move in, give them some cool innate abilities and mods that make them absolute beasts and there we go the number of players who use them will naturally rise up.

I hope I conveyed my thoughts properly on this matter. Personally, if they nerf the Itzal, I'm just gonna use another Archwing too. I grind for my loot and, since I like to keep my platinum usage to a minimum, I farm a lot so I need to move fast while doing missions and this way of playing is exactly the main way of playing this game at end-game. If they give me an option to farm even faster for free I'm up for it but I'm absolutely against anything that makes me slower.

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7 hours ago, Lion said:

Itzal does not need a nerf, and it's not a good idea to give us more options by making others obsolete.

I agree with a lot of the responses here - I do think Itzal is meta just because it's so effective in open world nodes, in the same vein that's not really a bad thing. I just think other options (K-drive/AW) need to be brought made more appealing with their own strengths.

Currently Archwing is just used to get from point A to point B - Itzal does that very effectively, and there's nothing else that comes close in that regard. But what if DE gave us reasons to use archwings where speed isn't as much of a factor? 

The Flying Eidolon comes to mind, in this regard it might be a better idea to bring a high damage/utility archwing instead of a go-fast archwing. 

---

As far as K-drives go, I think overall they are hurting, and need buffs to mobility and utility - they need to be able to instantly and easily overcome terrain obstacles like mountains in order to compete with archwings. Being able to use weapons and possibly even one handed Warframe abilities would make K-drive much more appealing than they are now.

 

I think the same. Either make content where the Archwings are the worse option to use (for example, missions in a medium\large arena with not much height space but a lot of horizontal large corridors) or give proper buffs to the K-Drives so they don't suck as much as they do now: allowing players to use weapons and gravimag weapons on them, allowing players to use frame skills from them, removing the chance to be dropped off the K-Drive on a bump, buffing their handling on the ground and make players have full control in the air, giving them mods that severely alter the way they're used (ex: a mod that every 3-5 secs drops mines that take their dmg and stats from the players' secondary weapons, a mod that allows K-Drives to Glide or to fly for a short period of time, a mod that insanely buffs the speed for a short while giving players the option to do short bursts on straightaways, and so on.

These are two ways to give players more options without making them angry by nerfing what is already meta. Nerfing itself sets a very dangerous precedent because at that point there's a chance that all of the Archwings are simply gonna be nerfed just because K-Drives suck so much at the moment and what if next DE puts in a vehicle that is even worse than K-Drives and wants to make that meta? Do you nerf K-Drives too at that point?

It also, keeps from developing these traversal methods into something the players love. Personally, I think players like K-Drives and their idea but they're just underwhelming at this moment...so BUFF THEM!

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Archwing for me is like an airplane and we can use our weapons.

K-Drive for me is like the car but we can't use our weapons

Walking, running and jumping with Warframe, we can use our weapons.

Doing the math, its simple, Want peoples to use something you created, put your energy on the K-drive and leave the rest alone. If i want to fly, i will fly, K-drive at the moment is only a skate board nothing more. I use it for fun, now change the option if us to use weapons with K-drive and then fun will start. Been suggested by other users.

Nerfing an Archwing is the easy and lazy choice to choose instead of going to the root of the problem that is the K-drive. Its an accessory.

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No, i'm pretty sure deleting Itzal is the better option here.

Maybe once its nerfed  i'll actually feel  justified  to sell  it.

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At this point DE will just change Itzal, so these meme-threads stop.

Let's face it: Itzal will get changed. People could give proper feedback on how to make Itzal a better Archwing (This way it isn't just a taxi for bigger maps)
But instead of giving proper feedback, people are just ranting like little children...

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Posted (edited)

In the current setting K-drive will never be able to compete to even the slowest AW, Elytron.

You lose offensive ability upon riding one. Get severely hindered by uneven terrain. Is slower than the slowest AW.

Logically speaking is there any real reason to use K-drive instead of Archwings?

6 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

At this point DE will just change Itzal, so these meme-threads stop.

Let's face it: Itzal will get changed. People could give proper feedback on how to make Itzal a better Archwing (This way it isn't just a taxi for bigger maps)
But instead of giving proper feedback, people are just ranting like little children...

Let say what we will get after they nerf Itzal though? Are other Archwings and K-drive better now?

Before the change: Itzal and other useless stuff

After the change: Itzal, but worse and other useless stuff

You do realize Itzal is popular coz Itzal is the only thing useful among them? Especially DE is taking K-drive for comparison which makes even less sense.

Say like even if you take out Blink it still has the fastest speed and free vacuum. The only way to make players use something else is to delete Itzal entirely.

When you say AW isn't just taxi it shows that you know as much as DE only. Coz both AWs and K-drive are just glorified taxi at this moment. DE made them so.

Edited by Marvelous_A
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I actually meant speed up archwings xD I feel the k-drives are plenty fast for how you're actually expected to do tricks on them, if they were faster the kdrives would be more uncontrollable, and you'd probably end up with even less time to actually perform tricks with them. But your idea of races with enemies having their own vehicles would be pretty awesome.  Hopefully something like that comes about in the future

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11 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Before the change: Itzal and other useless stuff

After the change: Itzal, but worse and other useless stuff

You do realize Itzal is popular coz Itzal is the only thing useful among them? Especially DE is taking K-drive for comparison which makes even less sense.

Say like even if you take out Blink it still has the fastest speed and free vacuum. The only way to make players use something else is to delete Itzal entirely.

When you say AW isn't just taxi it shows that you know as much as DE only. Coz both AWs and K-drive are just glorified taxi at this moment. DE made them so.

Itzal is useless when it comes to actual archwing stuff. It's only usefull in two open worlds. But even there you can easily play without it.
When the CHANGE Itzal (stop shouting "nerf"), it might be usefull in actual combat.

But why am I even arguing with you? You clearly have no clue what archwing is. You are just using Itzal in Open Worlds and that's it.

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I think k-drives need a few fixes to make them more popular choices that would require more work than an unnecessary nerf to itzal. 

-allow attacking from k-drive

-k drives get unique skills like archwings do. 

-k drives become like zaws/kitguns in that their parts actually change how they perform in a way. increased accelleration vs top speed vs handling sorta thing. 

-tricks need a bunch more versitility. Landing tricks could also give you bonus's like increased move speed etc

and most of all..

The terrain actually needs more things to jump off of rather than slam into, make more ramps, halfpipes and bowls. The lack of this stuff is what makes archwings always a better choice, you get stuck or slowed down soo much by inaccessible areas and walls blocking you compared to being able to just fly over everything till you get to your destination. 

 

Just my opinion anyway, I use amesha or itzal for everything anyway (usually amesha because i like it better for archwing content and im too lazy to swap off)  but odonata and elytron could defs use a few buffs

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14 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Logically speaking is there any real reason to use K-drive instead of Archwings?

If you want to gain energy on your Warframe while still moving somewhat fast.  Using the Zenurik Void Dash and then jumping on a K-Drive keeps the energy building up on the Warframe instead of on the Archwing which you would choose for pure transport speed.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Itzal is useless when it comes to actual archwing stuff. It's only usefull in two open worlds. But even there you can easily play without it.
When the CHANGE Itzal (stop shouting "nerf"), it might be usefull in actual combat.

But why am I even arguing with you? You clearly have no clue what archwing is. You are just using Itzal in Open Worlds and that's it.

And "actual archwing stuff" matters because??

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHfxlBnam4hBWZ_d7qXwO

Do they hold any actual meaning besides as a place for you to level for AWs equipment?

Are you one of those minority that do Archwing missions constantly?

Funny someone even using AW missions as arguments.

Edited by Marvelous_A

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6 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

And "actual archwing stuff" matters because??

Because Railjack is coming up...

6 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Do they hold any actual meaning besides as a place for you to level for AWs equipment?

People had no interest in Archguns, and then the Gravimags dropped. And people were crying because they never ranked up there Archwing-stuff.
Let me phrase it so that you will understand it: It doesn't matter until it does. (The War Within had a Archwing section. Man, people keep crying about that aswell)
And when DE introduces more important Archwing Stuff, I want Itzal to be usefull and not useless as it is right now.

8 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQHfxlBnam4hBWZ_d7qXwO

Thank you for ending our little argument right here... ^^

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The main problem is, that people are simply not interested in looking at the open worlds for more than their current goal. In every open world game I just want to get to the place where I can do what I came in the mission for. K-Drives offer not a single advantage to anything else, are boring to play with and lock you out of your weapons. Warframes, weapons and everything else are mere tools in this game for me to take advantage of to achieve the things I want to achieve. And seeing that most people playing open worlds choose itzal over the other archwings (or K-Drives), I am not alone in that approach.

I dont mind changing up Itzal, if at the same time traversing the Plains or Orb Vallis will be as fast with any other alternative. And as a sidenote: Archwings are intended for Archwing missions. Changing them because of other applications is not a good approach imo.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, WhiteMarker said:

Because Railjack is coming up...

People had no interest in Archguns, and then the Gravimags dropped. And people were crying because they never ranked up there Archwing-stuff.
Let me phrase it so that you will understand it: It doesn't matter until it does. (The War Within had a Archwing section. Man, people keep crying about that aswell)
And when DE introduces more important Archwing Stuff, I want Itzal to be usefull and not useless as it is right now.

Thank you for ending our little argument right here... ^^

Then isn't Archguns the prime example of how actual Archwing content has no meaning? Coz they shine the most outside of Archwing battles....?

Did you watch the Railjack trailer though? I mean, with your eyes instead of mere imagination?

Coz you know what DE did with your little precious AWs? To fly from one ship to another...yes, that's the only thing they did.

And that's what the current Itzal best at LMAO..I suggest you check out the Railjack trailer, for real, this time.

But hey, at least you tried pulling out something not existing yet to persuade someone how AW missions are actually important. That's pretty impressive.

 

EDIT:

And how can someone actually call Itzal useless in "actual archwing stuff"?

It got speed, nuke, invisibility. It appears you've never used Itzal in archwing missions at all.

The only competitor is Amesha in Mobile Defense coz it can heal the satellite but that's pretty much it

Edited by Marvelous_A
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