Feedback on the recent looting change with Nekros/Hydroid etc.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

observations during over 9k hours wasted in this game - i'd consider that a large sample size.  People are vocalizing their displeasure at having a previously efficient farming method removed in the face of DE's previous claims of reducing grind. 

That isnt really valid because it just comes down to anecdotal evidence. Unless you keep records of every run you ever make and cross-reference you have no clue how many are unique samples.

[zoffmode]

6 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that is the core meaning of exploit, you take advantage of a design working a specific way, but not positively the intended way. There might have been no good way to fix just the silver grove, so a system wide change was easier and better. A specific SG change might have resulted in no extra looting at all in there.

Glitches and bugs have been known to become best game features for quite a while now. I don't see why people ever bring up "intended way" when all that matters is if it's a good or bad mechanic. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by zoffmode

[LSG501]

8 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that is the core meaning of exploit, you take advantage of a design working a specific way, but not positively the intended way. There might have been no good way to fix just the silver grove, so a system wide change was easier and better. A specific SG change might have resulted in no extra looting at all in there.

Um...what... an exploit is using something in a way it's not designed or intended, ie like the khora kavat spawn exploit to gain xp faster than you should do. 

Getting '2 items' instead of 1 when using something that is designed to give a chance of 'extra drops' is not using it in an unintended way, the issue was purely down to DE not excluding specters from the loot bonus, they've done it on other enemies such as bosses but they didn't do the same 'fixes' for specters.  In essence, it's not technically an exploit when you're not using the loot frames differently to usual, DE just didn't add in the 'no loot' code and now have taken a sledgehammer to 'fix' their mistake.

Edited May 24, 2019 by LSG501

[SneakyErvin]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Um...what... an exploit is using something in a way it's not designed or intended, ie like the khora kavat spawn exploit to gain xp faster than you should do. 

Getting '2 items' instead of 1 when using something that is designed to give a chance of 'extra drops' is not using it in an unintended way, the issue was purely down to DE not excluding specters from the loot bonus, they've done it on other enemies such as bosses but they didn't do the same 'fixes' for specters.  In essence, it's not an exploit, DE just didn't add in the 'no loot' code. 

There might be issues with the specters that make it harder than just adding the no loot variable from bosses. There might be other key factors in the coding that differentiates bosses, things that may not be part of the specters code.

It may also be that specters are inteded to get double looted, but not tripple, quad or quin. As they said, they didnt notice this until the nightwave act was added.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I simply see their reasoning and understand it. Just as I see people exaggerating this all aswell. I'd be surprised if even 10% of the people complaining about it actually used the mechanics in the first place. I've used it earlier myself with a friend of mine when we both played, I wont lose any sleep over it, nor would I if we still farmed and played together.

Edited May 24, 2019 by SneakyErvin

[Ein0r]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb SneakyErvin:

And that is the core meaning of exploit, you take advantage of a design working a specific way, but not positively the intended way. There might have been no good way to fix just the silver grove, so a system wide change was easier and better. A specific SG change might have resulted in no extra looting at all in there.

They could have changed the Spectre drops to reward tokens. Kill Specter X, get one X token. Kill Specter Y, get one Y token. Maybe two when you have a resource booster. No other interactions. When you extract convert the Tokens into rewards as listed on the loot table.

Or reduce the amount of flowers you need to craft the apothics, and make it a boss drop, similar to how farming non prime frames works. 

Or the same or a similar way as Vitus Essence works.

Or something similar to the Identified mechanic from Sabotage or Spy missions.

They have plenty of options.

 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ein0r

[Ham_Grenabe]

21 minutes ago, Ein0r said:

Just because I give a specific reason doesn't mean that this is the truth. And they only gave this added infos after some youtubers mentioned this in their videos, to prevent it from blowing out of proportions. And the "new intended behaviour" is just a phrase they can use for the sake of the argument that "this is our game and we can do whatever we want with it." In the end it is still just a cop-out.

Take up your argument about truth-telling with DE. 

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ham_Grenabe

[DrBorris]

It feels like an over-correction. DE saw people stacking like 8 loot abilities on a single enemy and it was  broken. There is a reasonable line and people past it. Rather than just cap off the extreme fringe farming strategy that most people did not even know about, they swung so wide they hit a big chunk of the loot farming meta.

 

In my opinion, it would have been a bit more reasonable to just cap the loot ability stacking to three.

1. An enemy can only have their loot table rolled once while they are alive (Ivara's Prowl)
2. An enemy can only have their loot table augmented by one ability on death (Khora, Hydroid, and Atlas)
3. A corpse can only be re-looted once (Nekros, Chesa Kubrow)

 

This still allows for players to min/max their farm but also caps off people from exploiting all of these things in combination.

Edited May 24, 2019 by DrBorris

[Fishyflakes]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

you now are simply arguing for the sake of arguing.  

Isn't it possible that people are complaining for the sake of complaining?

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

  If I can get 5 in the time it takes to scale the enemies to the point I want to leave I'm happy. 

You won't though.... and thats why this is so annoying....

Last time I went Toroid Farming I only got 3 before Level 120 Enemies forces us to Leave.

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that is the core meaning of exploit, you take advantage of a design working a specific way, but not positively the intended way. There might have been no good way to fix just the silver grove, so a system wide change was easier and better. A specific SG change might have resulted in no extra looting at all in there.

I disagree....

You couldn't double loot Assassins and The Wolf so whatever they did there could easily be applies to The Spectres....

As it is now though Not only did they gut All Looting Across the board but they killed off whatever tiny bit of motivation there was to scan plants and return to the silver Grove. All this while im still forced to Abort a mission because a #*!%ing door refuses to open.... if tbey want to fix something. I suggest they start with all the other bugs thats ruining people's ecperience rather than one literally nobody ever complained about. 

Seriously.... wheres the support ticket that said: "Help !!! Im getting more loot... Make it Stop... please fix!!!"

Seriously though... what the #*!% !!! I honestly don't even know how else I can express just how pissed off I am.

 

[Alaeacus]

2 hours ago, Ced23Ric said:

Cognitive bias.

Every minute of every day, there are always Nekros/Hydroid farms happening.  Whether it be Tellurium, Nanospores, Mutagen, etc. etc. etc.  Not anymore.  

Just because you don't see it, makes you equally guilty of your own Cognitive Bias.  Somebody who has no data to back their claim up, while screaming Cognitive Bias at others who have no data to back their claims up, is no better than the people they are accusing.  

Edited May 24, 2019 by Alaeacus

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Observed behavior over large sample size is not the same as cognitive bias.

Personally, I don't care about the loot - I don't need any resources other than ones they haven't yet introduced.  But if you are suggesting that Nekros+Hydroid was not a common strategy for those that actually DO need to farm things - well, I don't know what to say to you.

 

Yeah... I don't have access to meta data or whatever but every farming group I've ever been in has wanted a nekros and hydroid....

[FreeWilliam]

Hitting this from another direction, it DOES move us in the direction of not needing to have specialized farming groups.  If we've got one loot-on-death frame in a group then we're generally all at the same level.

It enables DE to balance the loot tables for more casual play and makes Nekros in particular less mandatory for farming. 

I get why people are worked up but also think by removing the 'but you can get it even faster X way' option it helps us justify making things less grindy for people who aren't (or can't, or don't want to) run a specific set of lootframes.

[Ham_Grenabe]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)Cubic Clem said:

I'm glad this happened.

Why?

Because you now feel the same way I felt when they took my void. I'm actually glad de did this to you. (Doesn't affect me because I never used the strat anyway..) 

Feel it. Just let it sink. That something you enjoyed is being taken away with just the snip of a finger.

Don't worry, your misery is still the best. This was just a farming streamliner. For you, they took away a whole experience. 

 

[Diavoros]

TBH did some farming runs yesterday with Hydroid + Nekros and feels the same loot-wise, got the expected quantities of loot as would be usual.

[Ephemiel]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

And that is the core meaning of exploit, you take advantage of a design working a specific way, but not positively the intended way.

It WAS the intended way till DE decided it wasn't, just like Valve said the Bison in TF2 going through enemies was a bug when it had AN OFFICIAL TOOLTIP IN THE GAME FOR YEARS.

This was nothing more than DE wanting people to keep on grinding.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

1 minute ago, FreeWilliam said:

t enables DE to balance the loot tables for more casual play and makes Nekros in particular less mandatory for farming. 

not sure what you're smoking to think DE is going to change the loot drop tables as a result of this - but I want some.

 

25 minutes ago, Fishyflakes said:

Isn't it possible that people are complaining for the sake of complaining?

Its possible - but more likely they actually mean they are upset when they say they are upset.

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

That isnt really valid because it just comes down to anecdotal evidence. Unless you keep records of every run you ever make and cross-reference you have no clue how many are unique samples.

It is valid since I used the term "many".  I have seen many groups running with the double loot strategy.  I have seen many groups recruiting for the same.  I never claimed all, a set percentage, or any thing else.  Many in my case happens to mean hundreds.  I have personally participated in hundreds. that to me is "many". I have only seen and played with a small subset of the active players, and fewer still of the registered players, but have seen many people using or wanting to use a double loot group to reduce the grind. I am sure than many more people I have NOT played with, nor seen have done the same.  

but again, you divert from the original point - and that was that the post I quoted was not even close to an accurate description of the complaints. 

If you are suggesting that NO ONE (not a single person or group) used Nekros+hydroid/khora/atlas whatever for farming, you are delusional.  If you admit SOME people did and would like to continue to do so, then you also admit they have a valid complaint.  

 

 

[KnightCole]

3 hours ago, LSG501 said:

Yeah, the irony in the nerf is that they keep saying they're trying to reduce the grindy nature of parts of the game... then increase the gind of arguably the most grindy aspect of the game lol. 

Yeah, no, games only ever make changes to increase loot grind or to piss off their players....

[LSG501]

1 hour ago, SneakyErvin said:

There might be issues with the specters that make it harder than just adding the no loot variable from bosses. There might be other key factors in the coding that differentiates bosses, things that may not be part of the specters code. 

It may also be that specters are inteded to get double looted, but not tripple, quad or quin. As they said, they didnt notice this until the nightwave act was added.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I simply see their reasoning and understand it. Just as I see people exaggerating this all aswell. I'd be surprised if even 10% of the people complaining about it actually used the mechanics in the first place. I've used it earlier myself with a friend of mine when we both played, I wont lose any sleep over it, nor would I if we still farmed and played together.

that's why they get paid the 'big bucks' to do the coding and qc....they also didn't need to fix it in the way that they have and that is the argument that most of us have.  Fix the specters by all means but there is no reason to nerf it for the rest of the game, all it does is increase the grind for loot, something they've actively said they're trying to reduce....

When my clan actually went farming together we used the multiple looter frame approach quite a bit, it was after all the most efficient way to get the loot, we didn't go after the specters however.  We didn't think our 'choice of frames' was anything special as we'd seen the same thing in public missions...

17 minutes ago, FreeWilliam said:

It enables DE to balance the loot tables for more casual play..  

Which would be fine if DE actually did this but we all know this just isn't going to happen, this is more about 'encouraging' people to buy boosters, which for newbies who are 'most affected', because old players have stockpiles of 'most' resources, means buying plat.  

It's pretty obvious what's going on when you look at the 'big picture' of the game... now we're getting less frequent 'updates' of new things DE needs to get plat sales via other means, the easiest way is to hit the resource grind so we end up getting boosters.

2 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

Yeah, no, games only ever make changes to increase loot grind or to piss off their players....

if you say so...

Edited May 24, 2019 by LSG501

[peterc3]

Previously overlooked synergy in the game is brought to the forefront when new content is designed and added to the game. Anything from bugs to unintended usage of abilities is ultimately a flaw in their design of the game that would be fixed when it becomes important to fix.

This is how it's gone numerous times before and it will happen again. If they wanted to drive boosters, they'd just completely cut loot rates across the board. This is Vex Armor 2: Electric Boogaloo and the feigned shock and pain from those who should know better by now is quite something to watch.

[FreeWilliam]

13 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

not sure what you're smoking to think DE is going to change the loot drop tables as a result of this - but I want some.

If I were in a legal state I'd have some as well!

Honestly though, I'm mostly interested in anything that removes 'mandatory' frames for tasks.  I enjoy modes and tasks where almost any frame can be viable and have an intense dislike for situations where one specific frame/build is so overwhelmingly useful that they become mandatory (so yeah, I'm not a big fan of Tridolon hunting or Saryn Onslaught).

Nekros will still be the best lootframe, but not so much that a Hydroid+Atlas combo wouldn't be able to compete or even outperform him.  

Some of us like that sort of thing, *shrug*

[Ein0r]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb peterc3:

Previously overlooked synergy in the game is brought to the forefront when new content is designed and added to the game. Anything from bugs to unintended usage of abilities is ultimately a flaw in their design of the game that would be fixed when it becomes important to fix.

This is how it's gone numerous times before and it will happen again. If they wanted to drive boosters, they'd just completely cut loot rates across the board. This is Vex Armor 2: Electric Boogaloo and the feigned shock and pain from those who should know better by now is quite something to watch.

But that was not the case. This synergy was not overlooked. And the scale in wich they nerfed fixed it stands in no relation to the issue at hand.

If their main goal is to drive booster sales they dont openly cut loot rates across the board. Because many players who look for a solid reason to quit, will quit. And with them a lot of sales. Not even thinking about bad PR, especially with Anthem still around. The second issue that goes along with this is that DE was not honest about it, that DE tried to sneak it past the community with the smallest mention required. Just wen S#&$ started to hit the fan, when the word got around to youtubers and streamers, they came around with that half-baked addendum to perform some sort of damage control. Upfront honesty would probably have cost several sales, too. It is a staple synergy that many players rely on, that many players enjoy and it got turned upside down with a small side note in the "Fixes" section.

DE can still show what they have planned, and how they will not prolong or complicate the grind after that 50% loot chance nerf  fix, but as you said, there were incidents in the past that made people lose trust.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Ein0r

[OneYenShort]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

observations during over 9k hours wasted in this game - i'd consider that a large sample size.

 

I call that cognitive bias based on falible memory and pre-conceived ideas with woefully inadequate data recording to make any sort of a claim other than anecdotal as we have zero means of verifying anything you have said.

 

That said as the old saying goes, exploit early, exploit often.

Edited May 24, 2019 by OneYenShort

[peterc3]

2 minutes ago, Ein0r said:

Not even thinking about bad PR, especially with Anthem still around.

You are divorced from 99.9% of the people who play this game if you are bringing up comparisons to Anthem.

3 minutes ago, Ein0r said:

If their main goal is to drive booster sales they dont openly cut loot rates across the board. Because many players who look for a solid reason to quit, will quit. And with them a lot of sales. Not even thinking about bad PR, especially with Anthem still around. The second issue that goes along with this is that DE was not honest about it, that DE tried to sneak it past the community with the smallest mention required. Just wen S#&$ started to hit the fan, when the word got around to youtubers and streamers, they came around with that half-baked addendum to perform some sort of damage control. Upfront honesty would probably have cost several sales, too. It is a staple synergy that many players rely on, that many players enjoy and it got turned upside down with a small side note in the "Fixes" section.

But they do cut a minmax grind group strat and that's not as overt? This is a "staple synergy"???

Sales of what? What significant group of players was so upset by this? The players who quit over this are not responsible for a lot of Plat sales, I can just about guarantee that.

Vex Armor was based on flawed math that was fine for the game until the Eidolons were added and people were taking out new, hard enemies in a fraction of the time they were planned to. That is what changed that minor bug into a need-to-fix-now bug.

[(PSN)guzmantt1977]

57 minutes ago, Diavoros said:

TBH did some farming runs yesterday with Hydroid + Nekros and feels the same loot-wise, got the expected quantities of loot as would be usual.

Shhhhh. Stop making sense. If you talk like that they're going to demand that you start using more salt when you mix your Kool-Aid. 

Just do what the rest of us do and take notes of the names. You'll be seeing some of them, a LOT. 

[Ein0r]

vor 1 Minute schrieb (PS4)guzmantt1977:

Shhhhh. Stop making sense. If you talk like that they're going to demand that you start using more salt when you mix your Kool-Aid. 

Just do what the rest of us do and take notes of the names. You'll be seeing some of them, a LOT. 

But it doesn't make sense?