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Primary Kitguns and the Kitgun Disaster of 2020


HamletEagle
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I honestly thought DE learned from their previous mistakes, but here we are again

My point is, and i'll make it short:

1. Secondary Kitguns when they were available, everyone went nuts for them. Stats were very good and rivens made the weapons overpowered. I'm looking at you Catchmoon / Tombfinger. When this happened, ALL and I mean ALL Secondaries were overshadowed by the sheer force of these weapons. I would dare say that 50% of the playerbase was using a kitgun, and stats showed that Catchmoon was the most used weapon, not a surprise. It was powerful, cleared entired groups of enemies, fun and satisfying to use, and after the hitbox was fixed on the projectile it was godly. Powerful, fast, INFINITE AMMO with Pax Charge or even more damage with Pax Seeker. Not just secondaries were overshadowed by this, and primaries as well. I was using my catchmoon 90% of the time, I even have a riven for it, it was that good. And the best part about Kitgun, you are able to build them however you want. You want more speed? you could build for more speed. You want more CC? You could build for more CC. 

2. Now this brings me to my 2nd point, and what I predict would happen. Primary Kitguns happen, they are very powerful, ALL Primaries will be overshadowed again by these weapons. Same thing will happen. Now what? i'm gonna see everyone with a primary Catchmoon and Tombfinger running around now? Is the riven market for these weapons going to explode again? Traders asking 1000 plat, 2000 plat and even 4-6k+ plat for a single riven, again? 

 

What must be done: OVERHAUL all stats of primary weapons. Primaries are static weapons, they can't be customized with different parts to suit a player's choice. You can't put Pax Augments in them. They don't have infinite ammo, or seeking missiles that target the head. 

Now what i'm asking is a lot, but BALANCE is important. Overhauling all stats of primaries to avoid a 2019 situation would be a tremendous task. You can make it shorter by overhauling the stats of weapons that are being used the most often. DE has the stats for that, we don't. Overhauling is vague so i'll explain a little more. What I want is to increases the stats of certain weapons, make them better. increase CC, Status, fire rate, reload speed and so on. Increasing the stats on a weapon, just by a little will have a big impact and if you balance it just right, certain MR fodder weapons will lose the status of "MR Fodder"

Players want harder content, they will get it. Stronger weapons are required. Armor will get reworked, Shields will get reworked. What about the old weapons? Are they going to be forgotten?

"They are end-game weapons, so they should be powerful" - Venus is literally the 2nd planet you unlock as a new player... Can a new player if he grinds ENOUGH reputation, build them? Or at least a kitgun powerful enough to clear most of the star chat? Of course he can. Did I mention they don't have an MR requirement?

 

Extra note: I would love to more options for primary kitguns, not just a copy-paste from secondary kitguns. Where's my primary shotgun kitgun DE?

Edited by HamletEagle
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They'll probably make them overpowered for the first few weeks to give us incentive to take part in the system, and then nerf the crap out of them once their dedicated playerbase has invested in them, because you know, that is DE's playbook.

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Primary weapons don't have the crazy multishot and crit mods that secondary weapons have at the moment, i don't think they will be better than secondary kitguns, except if you are using rivens because they should have different disposition, unless they play it safe and go with the 0.5 dispo from the start.
but anyway we need to wait to see the stats to get a better idea on how will they perform.

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It was one of the things I was going to go over but I felt like it was already too long. So i'm glad it was the 1st comment. 

You know what motivated me to go over this whole ordeal? My Kuva Twin Stubbas ( 5 forma) and Battacor (7 forma + Riven) were not able to kill or do enough damage against lvl 100 Raptors in a kuva Sihpon. I just had a wisp, 2 shot them with a catchmoon and look at me funny

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I know what to do! No mastery, no gilding!

I expect it will be much like Skaleek says. They’ll be utterly surprised at how everyone is suddenly using primary kitguns, and proceed with nerfing.

It would be hilarious if the player base just en masse said “Nah.”

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I can't speak for everyone, but I know for me primary kitguns won't overshadow anything. I'm hoping we can finally rename our primary weapons when this releases, but I'll stick to the Fulmin or Sobek. I MIGHT try a rattleguts primary, but since there isn't mastery from them if we've leveled the barrels up from secondaries then there isn't much of an incentive to try the primaries.

Edited by --Brandt--
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vor 44 Minuten schrieb HamletEagle:

"They are end-game weapons, so they should be powerful" - Venus is literally the 2nd planet you unlock as a new player... Can a new player if he grinds ENOUGH reputation, build them? Or at least a kitgun powerful enough to clear most of the star chat? Of course he can. Did I mention they don't have an MR requirement?

 

Grinding up to the point where you can build the best kitguns is not realistic for a MR 0 player, even if there is no MR requirement attached, less so if we factor in pax seeker and charge. The amount of work you have to put into getting a kitgun is far higher than for most other secondaries where you just farm a bit of resources or a few relics. DE said it themselves that they want kitguns to be powerful and I agree that they should be more powerful than most secondaries. 

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People asked for them.

DE confirmed them so #*!%ing long ago.

They show them.

And there was much rejoicing.

But then there wasnt.

Just the usual day in the You Cant Please Everone Channel, on channel 666, for 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and 420 days a year.

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31 minutes ago, HamletEagle said:

Now what i'm asking is a lot, but BALANCE is important. Overhauling all stats of primaries to avoid a 2019 situation would be a tremendous task. You can make it shorter by overhauling the stats of weapons that are being used the most often. DE has the stats for that, we don't. Overhauling is vague so i'll explain a little more. What I want is to increases the stats of certain weapons, make them better. increase CC, Status, fire rate, reload speed and so on. Increasing the stats on a weapon, just by a little will have a big impact and if you balance it just right, certain MR fodder weapons will lose the status of "MR Fodder"

Do you mean the least often? Otherwise, in your terms of "overhauling" you'll just be increasing the critical, status, fire rate, and reload speed of like... The Arca Plasmor, the Rubico, the Lanka, the Opticor Vandal, the Ignis Wraith and so forth for... No reason. 

Also, I'm seeing far, far less kitguns since the first two months of kitguns being available due to them not being that interesting or useful. Most people used the Catchmoon because it had massive upfront damage in content people normally played in greater range than most melee weapons. Tombfinger wasn't used that much because its effective range isn't that much further than Catchmoon being that it's still a projectile weapon, Gaze is range limited and most people don't even build it correctly, and Rattleguts is a joke for anything but a status crit pistol with an arcane, basically used only proc statuses. 

Over the last month, I can say I've not seen a single rattleguts or Gaze, I've seen one Tombfinger, and I've seen seven Catchmoons. Other secondaries have more usefulness, like a Brakk or Kuva Brakk for proccing statuses extremely quickly with more elements, or Pox to lock down area, Zakti to open up finishers, or a Synoid Gammacor to restore energy(it's actually surprising how much more this has been coming up). 

42 minutes ago, HamletEagle said:

Powerful, fast, INFINITE AMMO with Pax Charge or even more damage with Pax Seeker.

There are still weapons that are more powerful and fast, even for the time they were released. Also, infinite ammunition generally doesn't matter unless the weapon is already an underperformer. I only know of two times when Pax Charge was even recommended, and both of them were cases of a weapon being too weak to kill enemies(a Lephantis Assassination Sortie, because people don't know how to mod for it; a status hose kitgun which only sets up the melee weapon for CO). I'd say the most important one that you missed which is a big reason people would use kitguns is Pax Bolt, which increases power strength and efficiency which can be a large bonus to reach thresholds. 

Outside of the first two months where everyone was just in a craze over that fact that kitguns were the new deal, with arcanes specifically for them, and an arca plasmor secondary I didn't see kitguns very often. I saw a lot of people using catchmoon during those first two months, and the other ones were pretty much stuck in the pocket being passively leveled while everyone just used their melees. 

48 minutes ago, HamletEagle said:

2. Now this brings me to my 2nd point, and what I predict would happen. Primary Kitguns happen, they are very powerful, ALL Primaries will be overshadowed again by these weapons. Same thing will happen. Now what? i'm gonna see everyone with a primary Catchmoon and Tombfinger running around now? Is the riven market for these weapons going to explode again? Traders asking 1000 plat, 2000 plat and even 4-6k+ plat for a single riven, again? 

Sorry, but no. There is a wide variation of the usefulness that primary weapons have, not just be a projectile sniper rifle, an arca plasmor 2.0, or a low damage status machine gun. Assuming we stick with these categories, the most that's getting overshadowed is Flux Rifle and Convectrix, which are already pretty garbage and have needed more buffs for a while regardless of the mass beam weapon buff that already happened.  

The only way that I can see P. kitguns overshadowing any of the already fine primaries is to have an arcane that buffs power duration and range, like Pax Bolt, or some other ridiculous arcane that buffs the player instead of just the weapon, or spreads damage. The only threat I can see is what the Pax arcane upgrades will bring to the table, much like how Exodia Brave is extremely powerful right now for energy regeneration, more so than the Zenurik tree on anything where you're able to freely kill trash mobs. 

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58 minutes ago, Skaleek said:

They'll probably make them overpowered for the first few weeks to give us incentive to take part in the system, and then nerf the crap out of them once their dedicated playerbase has invested in them, because you know, that is DE's playbook.

Like they nerfed the kitguns.

Except they didn't nerf them. They can still melt the new Railjack enemies.

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Its my guess there are no new barrels so they dont need to renerf all the riven dispositions. They can prebalance the kitguns primaries in advance based on the current riven strengths. Also, individual weapon variations will have different disposition now so that allows for even more precise balancing of rivens.  

I feel like with the work that goes into kitguns aaand zaws through standing costs and resource costs they should be some of the stronger weapons. That said,  melee is still vastly stronger than most guns which is ok but not really the best situation.  

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Well heres the regular things:

DE releases stuff greatly overpowered,

Everyone uses it cause it is better,

DE leaves it alone for some time,

DE realises its time to release a new PA or new weapons,

DE nerfs the weapons cause "that was unintentional and now its how it was supposed to be" so players have a reason to buy the new things.

DE pulls a surprised pikachu face when players used to the power are returned to "pre OP" levels and start complaining,

 

Or

 

they could turn over a new leaf and have weapons that are well balanced on release - weirder things can happen,

 

I am not saying this with malice , its the observations so far, i kind of find it funny.

 

But i do not think it will be as bad ,

secondaries were always more powerful than primaries since the primed mods and multishot mods for them released , i expect them to be strong but not better than the current best.

I am curious to see how rivens will work, so far all kitgun rivens were secondary only , will there be primary kitgun rivens? will existing kitgun rivens be useable ?

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9 minutes ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

There are still weapons that are more powerful and fast, even for the time they were released. Also, infinite ammunition generally doesn't matter unless the weapon is already an underperformer. I only know of two times when Pax Charge was even recommended, and both of them were cases of a weapon being too weak to kill enemies(a Lephantis Assassination Sortie, because people don't know how to mod for it; a status hose kitgun which only sets up the melee weapon for CO). I'd say the most important one that you missed which is a big reason people would use kitguns is Pax Bolt, which increases power strength and efficiency which can be a large bonus to reach thresholds. 

Kitgun with Pax Charge is one of the best things to bring in a melee focused build because you never have to reload and you will have a high damage ranged option when needed. With Kitgun primaries it will be even better since you can have a kit fully tailored to your need that never needs to worry about reloading. Fulmin is a good substitute atm, since it pairs well with a catchmoon and melee, so you have a quick nullipopper with good range. This quickly become a massive QoL thing in arbitrations where you might face drones that are dispatched quickly with catchmoon aswell as nullies dispatched quickly and safely with fulmin, letting you go to town chopping up everything else with your melee.

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First Rule of Warframe: Never get attached to anything in this game...

 

They'll be OP at first, everyone will chase the meta...then one day Pablo will say..Oh look at these numbers...Time of for a nerf...

 

REPEAT.

 

So in reality just find what makes you really happy to use even if it gets murdered..I still enjoy the Arca Plasmor from time to time over the Fulmin...and I'll find something out of these Kit-Guns that either is fun for spy missions or is good for breaking crates...their true end game purpose...

Edited by (PS4)FriendSharkey
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2 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

Kitgun with Pax Charge is one of the best things to bring in a melee focused build because you never have to reload and you will have a high damage ranged option when needed. With Kitgun primaries it will be even better since you can have a kit fully tailored to your need that never needs to worry about reloading. Fulmin is a good substitute atm, since it pairs well with a catchmoon and melee, so you have a quick nullipopper with good range. This quickly become a massive QoL thing in arbitrations where you might face drones that are dispatched quickly with catchmoon aswell as nullies dispatched quickly and safely with fulmin, letting you go to town chopping up everything else with your melee.

Or you could just put the Synth set on literally any companion, and then shoot and use your melee, then swap back to be immediately reloaded like I've been doing for nearly a year now. Or we could use the new Pexilus slot for any of the tactical reload mods, as if they're useful for anything else other than, like, holding Vigilante sets, equipping projectile speed on applicable weapons, or ammo maximum/conversion on the weapons that eat through too much ammo like the Kohm, which would still be the only weapon in its class.  

Most of the time my melee can just kill an arbitration drone, in the rare case that it can't, or is too annoying to do(Arbitration Grineer Ghoul Disruption) I just use my equipped weapon at the time, put it back in my pocket, and continue to melee. It's not like I have a swap time for that. I have no reason to swap my Kuva Brakk, Quatz, or Staticor for something that does less than any of these three do unless I'm going for a build with Pax Bolt instead. 

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34 minutes ago, Hyrianeth said:

Here i am trying to understand how Catchmoon or even Tombfinger comes even close to Gaze's DPS. Bruh, these 2 kitguns are sooo overrated.

Those two weapons used to have top Riven dispositions, so players could make them ridiculously powerful and fun .... until DE killed them for the sake of balance. 

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1 minute ago, ShichiseitenYasha said:

Or you could just put the Synth set on literally any companion, and then shoot and use your melee, then swap back to be immediately reloaded like I've been doing for nearly a year now. Or we could use the new Pexilus slot for any of the tactical reload mods, as if they're useful for anything else other than, like, holding Vigilante sets, equipping projectile speed on applicable weapons, or ammo maximum/conversion on the weapons that eat through too much ammo like the Kohm, which would still be the only weapon in its class.  

Most of the time my melee can just kill an arbitration drone, in the rare case that it can't, or is too annoying to do(Arbitration Grineer Ghoul Disruption) I just use my equipped weapon at the time, put it back in my pocket, and continue to melee. It's not like I have a swap time for that. I have no reason to swap my Kuva Brakk, Quatz, or Staticor for something that does less than any of these three do unless I'm going for a build with Pax Bolt instead. 

My companions are already filled with other mods and I think the ammo return of 5%/s is just too low on them as a substitute for battery mechanics. Tactical Reload is nice however, but only applies to assault rifles anyways. So I might aswell just use an arcane to turn the gun into a battery since I wont be using it for headshot hunting or a main source of damage through arcanes, plus it saves me alot of time not having to forma each single slot to fit a pexilus.

And same, I tend to melee it all, but when the drone pops further away I rather shoot it right then and there.

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2 hours ago, Skaleek said:

They'll probably make them overpowered for the first few weeks to give us incentive to take part in the system, and then nerf the crap out of them once their dedicated playerbase has invested in them, because you know, that is DE's playbook.

You're taking part in developing the game. That is DE's playbook. Why ask if this new thing might be altered in the future when you know the answer and should "invest" accordingly.

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Still dont get how Riven dispo nerf = Weapon nerf. In the case of the catchmoon, the only thing that was nerfed was its falloff damage. But the other kitguns were untouched if i remember correctly, only their riven dispo got lowered.

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