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2020’s First Mainline: Review, Revise, Refresh.


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1 hour ago, rstripn said:

Unless I'm misreading the patch notes, weapons getting changed have a maximum radial decrease of 50% and the central point is getting 20% higher damage to compensate. On average people will be doing similar damage to the majority of targets, and against central targets will actually be doing more.

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This is no longer accurate after continued testing. What we are doing now is:

No damage buffs have been added, but any weapons with AOE are receiving ~20% increase in Radius. Additionally, AOE weapons are receiving a 90% Radial Damage Falloff from central impact. This means on the very outer section of the explosion Radius 10% of the Damage will be dealt. Tactics will be deadly - aim true, Tenno. 

 

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On 2020-02-28 at 10:21 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Eruption
On Rank 5: On Energy Pickup
100% chance to Knockdown nearby enemies. 

 

I would like to suggest we replace the knockdown with a state similar to the immobilization caused by Harrows Condemn (they stay frozen stiff in the pictured state) or an Electricity status effect.

I ask this because knockdowns are usually only intentionally caused on enemies as a last resort for cc, because it makes headhsots harder, and can cause both headshots and bodyshots to miss entirely if it is unexpected. They are often avoided.

This pose makes enemies visible, and helps players line up headshots. This will make also Eruption a solid consideration to pair with an arcane that is triggered by headshots, which helps achieve our shared goal of having many arcanes be seen as valuable options to bring.

Thank you.

Edited by Metal_Sign
Image link. Reworded slightly.
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2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 4) There is a reason gameplay and rewards are two different words.  You play a game with the promise of rewards.  If those rewards are randomly generated you can have people play longer.  This is a fine balancing act, and again DE sometimes borks it hard.  If you want an example I want you to find someone who built a Xiphos, and didn't buy it.  I will admit that I bought it, because fractional drop chances from a 3 cache find on extended missions is absolute crap.  If you want another find anyone willing to solo grind for the mutagen samples to unlock the Hema.  I did that too, and it sucked.

The Xiphos example really hit home for me. Spent 2 months trying to get a single part and never got it. Gave up and bought all 3 parts from 3 different people in less then 20 minutes with plat. It was just easier

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2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE used to run the moderation through volunteers.  It was a less than fantastic system, because you largely get what you paid for.

DE had to have an outside party raise concerns over the way moderation worked.  No history, but if you want to go find it the documentation and proof still exists.

Once the flag was raised, and the thing gained momentum they changed policies.  They worked with the current moderation team, and brought in professionals who could moderate their forums.  DE has a post on it, and they were clear on what the goals, implementation, and changes were.  

This was a bad situation they dealt with properly.  The rules are generally now followed, the ban on personal attacks is pretty reasonable, and we don't have keyword bans by a kickbot.  All of which came about because somebody laid out a lot of grievances that some people really didn't want to listen to.

I commend DE for fixing their moderation.  I would have preferred that it didn't result from a negative situation like it did, but they did make positive changes.  We now have consistency that can be worked with, and people are free to hurt each others' feels as long as there's no implications of real world damages.  

[...]

Regarding the last bit, they don't seem to answer the forums on any regular basis.  If you want to leave feedback there are more avenues with the blue bird, and they often cite these messages as driving forces to changes.  If you want an example, read back on why "universal medallions" don't universally apply to conclave.  If they are reading, but not responding, I would appreciate their feedback in a non-trivial way so it doesn't seem like screaming into a void.  I'd like to admit being wrong, and that our feedback matters.

[...]

 

Thank you for the information. I am glad to have some sort of baseline knowledge. 🙂

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5 hours ago, Graavarg said:

No, Warframe cannot be compared to a job, minimum or maximum wage, doesn't matter. It isn't a job, and it isn't about making money. It doesn't have anything to do with "costs", since there is an option to play for free. You might make everything about salaries, money, income/investment per time or whatever when you play Warframe, but there is no logic or reason to even try to generalize such a perspective to cover Warframe as a whole. Neither the playerbase nor the designer sees or have tried to make Warframe into a job. Games are about investing time and effort for fun, not for earning stuff/plat/whatever.

Bolded last part. Whenever Warframe becomes about an endless slog of grind just to get one specific reward in an unenjoyable gameplay to be able to say “now I never have to play this again,” it becomes a job.

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On 2020-02-28 at 10:21 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Bodyguard 
On Rank 5: On 6 Melee Kills within 30s

Heal Companion for a greater amount.

 

On 2020-02-28 at 10:21 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Energize
On Rank 5: On Energy Pickup
60% chance to replenish Energy to nearby Allies
Added duration and Cooldown added (cannot re-trigger while active).


Arcane Eruption
On Rank 5: On Energy Pickup
100% chance to Knockdown nearby enemies. 

 

On 2020-02-28 at 10:21 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Pulse - Increased stats and added cool down
On Rank 5: On Health Pickup:
30% chance to Heal nearby allies

The devstream talked about how a lot of arcanes have poor descriptions that don't give important information, like their range or how much they heal/energy they give. Many of the changes aren't reflected well in many of the descriptions given here. how close is nearby?  

will arcane arachne finally affect warframes and not just weapons? if not its description should indicate that it only grants bonus weapon damage.
is arcane aegis  30%/per second or 30%/duration? 

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Amps and self-stagger needs to be looked at.

Shraksun Scaffold damages self even when standing still. Shraksun scaffold's projectile explode so soon after launch that there is no way to avoid being damaged by it by any means other than ending transference. Propa Scaffold has enough time in the fuse to avoid the damage, although it consumes plenty of operator energy to do so. These amp self-damage effects are not very noticeable because of Tenno's extreme resistance to void damage type. I hope they don't stagger self every other time you fire them after the update.

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В 28.02.2020 в 19:21, [DE]Rebecca сказал:

Decreased the chances of Kuva Lich controlled sectors forcing an Exterminate situation to allow for more gamemode chances.

this is actually bad. an exterminate mission is less time consuming mission in general. we grind for these murmurs so the game would tell us the right combination for requiems (because i assume there is no better option >_>) which means the faster we do this, the better. capture mission is also good, but i would rather do an exterminate with level 90 mobs, rather than a capture with level 90 mobs.

Edited by Kel_Silonius
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On 2020-02-28 at 11:21 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Arcane Aegis: 
On Rank 5: On Shield Damaged:

3% chance for +30% Shield Recharge for 12s.

@[DE]Rebecca

Is this a typo? I ask because:

Current rank 3: 6% chance for +60% Shield Recharge for 20s.

If you take the values you listed above and add them to the current values you would get something that makes perfect sense in terms of the other arcanes being changed:

Rank 5: 9% chance for +90% Shield Recharge for 32s.

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This is absurd. These new arcane changes isn't what feels like 1.5 its still 1 arcane at max ranked which you will now have to buy or grind 11 more of to get about the same results of. yes some few arcanes have been buffed by a bit. but for most its either a nerf being like 0.8 as they are now or with a cooldown which we dont know how long will last which worries me. or they are as they once were but now you gotta grind a heck alot more. this smells nasty. like you dont think the grind for these arcanes isn't already long boring and tedious. then atleast up the chances of getting the rare ones. and why is it 11 more for 2 ranks when 10 is for 3 ranks? it should be more like 15 in total for 5 ranks what is wrong with your maths? arghh

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On 2020-02-28 at 4:21 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Status Chance Mod Buffs 
The Status Chance Mods we released many years ago have not been considered worthwhile - there are simply better options within the Status Mod builds (Dual Stats) or Critical builds are more appealing. We are buffing all Standalone Status Chance Mods to increase the appeal of building for Status on your Weapons:

Rifle Aptitude increased from 15% Status Chance to 90% Status Chance

Melee Prowess increased from 15% Status Chance to 90% Status Chance

Sure Shot increased from 15% Status Chance to 90% Status Chance

Shotgun Savvy increased from 30% Status Chance to 90% Status Chance

Why? This is a long overdue change that will thrive when paired with the above change of giving >100% Status meaning. The goal is to give your Arsenals a shake up in terms of what Status may mean for some of your Collection! This is a power output increase across the board for Status. 

 

Was Modified Munitions overlooked here?

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9 hours ago, baoyouming said:

Unless the lichs rank up when ever they are forced to retreat.

Why would it?

9 hours ago, baoyouming said:

You're the only one here who seems offended. The system now works as is and you're crying for them to change it just for your scenario with your friend. 

Oh yeah, f*ck me for wanting to play with my friends in this co-op game. Clearly co-op shooter games should be designed for loners who want to avoid fighting the enemies. Yup, that's some big brain logic there, buddy.

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10 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

1) It is a privilege to simply play this game, and the reward is contained therein.

Yes.

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2) Because the game can be played for free by extremely elastic definitions, the developers don't have to ever justify drop rates.  Simply having the potential to drop is good enough, and there's not statistics to indicate that the rates would be detrimental.  

Since we are moving into formal logic territory by inferring to straw man fallacies, your first sentence/claim is illogical:

  • The game can be played for free [true]
  • The definition of "free gameplay" demands extremely elastic definitions [false]
  • As a consequence of the "freeness" in combination with "extremely elastic definitions" developers don't have to justify drop rates [false]

So there is one fact or truth (the game can be played for free), but the rest is qualified semantic BS. In your second sentence you presuppose that there is something like "detrimental drop rates". Detrimental to what?

And you are inferring that game developers should have to justify drop rates to someone, to whom? To you?

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3) The RNG rewards in Warframe are inherently different than a slot machine...because?  I'd suggest this is because you don't believe the act of gambling can inherently be pleasurable, but cannot answer this with the data at hand.

Now you are trying to change the argument, you claimed Warframe as whole was a slot machine (want me to quote you?). My point is that Warframe is much, much more than just a slot machine, and that most players play Warframe for this content rather than the RNG drops. And speaking of straw men arguments, maybe we should include ad hominem as well?

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4) Gameplay is inherently a reward.

Not exactly. Gameplay that is fun is rewarding, and you do not need RNG drops to achieve that fun.

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5) Because somebody has a thing, everybody should shut up.  It's possible, so stop complaining.

No. But one should always strive to be logical, fact-based and honest, also when complaining. And especially so when claiming to represent not only oneself, but others as well.  Maybe you don't agree?

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Let's rip them apart.

🙂

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1) Let's open the launcher.  Hmmm, multiple different bits asking for my money.  Let's try to get a bp and make a new weapon.   Hmmm, the market defaults to items to purchase with platinum.  Let's actually be real here, DE is not a charity.  They run a business.  What sells the most is what they do, and it's our job to tell them what we are willing to buy.  If tomorrow the monetization was shut off the development would end, because DE is composed of people who need to get paid.  There is no privilege in playing the game, there's a daily balance between paying to skip grind (read: not content, grind) and simply grinding.

Hmm, how nice! A typical straw man logical fallacy, just as we were talking about them. The statement "you can play Warframe for free" is unambiguous and true, and has nothing to do with DE and Warframe needing money to function (how nice of you to point that out, I am sure very few people understand this).

Not sure about the numbering though, since it is a bit unclear how this relates to the statement above (1) that it is a privilege to simply play this game (which is also true).

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2) This is pretty sick, and why mobile games are cancer.  It's free to play, but there's a 24 hour wait, or a 12 followed by 72, or 6 12 hours.  To be real, this is forma, any frame, and a Railjack.  The entire time you can pay real money, and get the thing or walk away from the game.  Theoretically it's free.  In reality the amount of "free" is pretty minimal and even with the very recent addition of some slots, you can't do a lot.  The common response is that you can grind to get platinum from other players, and spend it on convenience.  The problem is that you're admitting the drop rates are bad enough to warrant skipping through alternative grind and spending somebody else's money on it.  The net effect is you admit drop rates matter and that the ability to skip grind is vital at some point.  With both admissions the game cannot strictly be played for free, only free if your time has no value.

No. This is a mishmash of logical inconsistencies and outright lies. Either Warframe is free to play, or it is not. Your claim that it is both "theoretically free and minimally free at the same time" is illogical and not based on facts. Your claim that you cannot do a lot for free is an outright lie. Your concept of "common response" or "bad drop rates" has nothing to do with this, and these concepts would need clear, objective definitions to have any meaning.

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3) Definition of words is definition.  Slot machines take an input, run a process which returns a random number, and based off of that value pops out a reward.  Warframe is an exact copy of that.  The two only vary in that the input is money or time and the output is nothing, money, or digital goods.  Don't believe me, fine. 

That first sentence is again too groovy for me, I don't get it. As to Warframe being an exact copy of a slot machine, let's just say that if that is your view, fine. I will only point out that if you removed all RNG drops from Warframe and instead put in fixed drops, Warframe would still be Warframe and millions would continue playing. If you did the same with a slot machine...

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4) If it was inherently rewarding they wouldn't have loot drops at the end, leader boards, or point which become drops.  If you can name any mission in warframe without rewards I'll agree I am wrong.  Here's a hint though, even ESO and SO have affinity.  Please, I'm really looking forward to this.

No. Here are a couple of logical fallacies. The first one is the claim that loot drops proves that the game isn't inherently rewarding ("false cause/causality").  In fact (or by logic, if you prefer) loot drops does not in any way disprove that Warframe is inherently rewarding.

The "if you can name any mission..." is also a logical fallacy, or actually two rolled in one. The "setup" that you are right unless proven wrong is a "burden of proof" fallacy (= logically false), and as a premise for your question you are using the same logical fallacy as per above (that there is a direct logical causality that proves that if Warframe isn't inherently rewarding because there are drops).

Your "hint" about affinity is a bit of a mystery, since affinity is a game mechanic and not a RNG drop. And ESO/SO do have RNG drops, so?

So hopefully you got what you was looking forward to. 

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5) If you disagree with math...fine.  Everybody needs a burger flipper.  Just don't get into actual fabrication of the meat components or the cash register.  For everyone else, 10 runs of a 10% reward chance inductively means you get the reward.  In actuality it doesn't.  0.9^10 is the chance of not getting the reward, that's 35% of people not getting the reward despite running the thing 10 times.   Statistics and inductive reason are pretty goofy.

Oooh, now I disagree with math 🙂. And have a future as a burger flipper, no less. As long as I don't start fabricating stuff about meat components. Fantastic.

This is called the "ad hominem" logical fallacy, which normally occurs when someone runs out of arguments and/or logic and defaults to personal attacks. For the record I don't mind, as it is indicative of where this is going.

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Let's short down my points, and give them the same scrutiny.

Yes, by all means lets repeat this.

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1) Playing Warframe is neither a right nor a privilege.  It's something I can do while DE can make money from it, and if they make bad decisions my route to communicate this is to not spend money and to give them negative feedback.

Well, I am not sure what you mean by "privilege" or by "right", as the concepts seems somewhat loose regarding the discussion. But just to be clear I do feel privileged playing Warframe. It is a wonderful and fantastic game, and my gaming would be poorer without it.

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2) The game isn't free to play.  It requires investment of money.  If you're the investor, you are trading grind for money.  If you're the grinder you trade time for money.  If you're DE you are balancing the grind-reward metric to bring in enough money and not get people willing to spend money to quit. 

<sigh> Warframe is free to play. It does not require an investment of money. These are lies, and completely unnecessary at that. And the investor/grinder/developer/DE thingy is another logical fallacy (or two). That they are true in themselves does not infer any proof of causality, or even logical causality. You can guess which logical fallacy this represents...

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3) RNG is not inherently bad, and neither are slot machines.  The issue is that the valuation of time matters.  This is why there are slot machines in different denominations and quantities, and why DE has things like basic resources which are easy to get while stuff like aura forma bps are a pain.  The issue is sometimes DE is really stupid about that balance, and this is one of those times.  

Finally something we can totally agree on: "RNG is not inherently bad". The rest is a mishmash of logical fallacies, slot machines in different denominations has no causal connection to either aura formas or any valuation of time, and the valuation of time is just a meaningless presupposition without any logical definition or proof. As is the "DE is really stupid...".

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4) There is a reason gameplay and rewards are two different words.  You play a game with the promise of rewards.  If those rewards are randomly generated you can have people play longer.  This is a fine balancing act, and again DE sometimes borks it hard.  If you want an example I want you to find someone who built a Xiphos, and didn't buy it.  I will admit that I bought it, because fractional drop chances from a 3 cache find on extended missions is absolute crap.  If you want another find anyone willing to solo grind for the mutagen samples to unlock the Hema.  I did that too, and it sucked.

Really, they are? Different words? Is this connected to the "Definition of words is definition"? But as to the logic you are a bit lost again. Your first claim ("You play a game with the promise of rewards") is either false or ambiguous. If you use the same meaning for "rewards" as you consistently have done so far, it is a false statement. If you suddenly have broadened the concept to include "fun" as a reward, it becomes too ambiguous to have any real meaning (even though I can agree with the idea that you play games for the fun).

I built Xiphos without buying it (and have even given out extra parts to friends and clansmen), so I am lost as to what proof that is. You are partly right about Hema, it is the only non-unlocked thing in our dojo and I bought Hema from the market. On the other hand I did not feel that I was in any way forced to buy it, got a Hema riven and wanted to check it out. And we have this little thing going in the clan, gathering mutagen samples for Hema using extractors only (on Eris), just to see how long it takes (currently at 2000+, going on the third year, so it will be researched in another 4-5 years).

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5) Rewards are only rewarding if they give you something which feels equal to the input effort.  At 223 days for a single arcane I can't say that it will.  I especially can't say it will if the effect delivered is not the advertised 150% of a level 3 with 210% of the required investment.  

I agree fully with the concept that rewards being felt as "rewarding" is a personal feeling. It is also part of a larger concept of "achievements", the personal feeling of achieving something. Achievements are also connected to the challenge involved. But this is sort of what I have been saying all along, that players play for fun, overcoming challenges and achieving stuff is fun, and for some RNG rewards are less interesting while for others getting the rare drops is the most important part of the game. I'm down with that. What I do not accept as logical or true is applying the RNG-reward concept as the central thing for all players. That is pure BS (to put it bluntly).

If RNG is your "thing", either for getting everything in the game or because you are indirectly farming for plat, of course game changes will affect you. Especially when farming for plat drops, since the plat value of drops are affected not only by their relative rarity, but by their use, usefulness and META status in the game. Arcane Energize is a good example of this. But to claim that game changes are horrible for all players or that DE is lost in space (Railjack space? 🙂) because the changes affect this small part of the game is, once again, neither logical nor true.
 

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This is the point where you rightly call me out for a straw man argument against your points.  You've got 5 bullets.  Add the points and explain.  The reason I gave my 5 is to be fair, and counter what I can understand of you.  Please, give me a clear and coherent response that is concise.  I feel like continuing to answer your points, which have rapidly devolved into a fundamental misunderstanding of why time is valued and valuable, is getting us nowhere. 

Alternatively, tell me why you think your time isn't valuable and DE shouldn't respect it.  I will then suggest that you are worth more than that, and I have no idea who you are.  If you see this as a personal attack, then I'm incapable of making you understand.  I implore you to state "I win," and I'll concede that we simply cannot come to a mutual understanding.

 

Ok, hopefully the logical arguments are understandable (the definitions of logical fallacies are available all over the internet). If you think they are "unfair", "unclear", "incoherent" or "verbose", just point it out. Hopefully you can manage to adher to your own guidelines in a potential response ("Please, give me a clear and coherent response that is concise").

I do not think the problem is any fundamental misunderstanding of "the value of time", though that is one heavy metaphysical question, touching on the meaningfulness/meaninglessness of existence. It is about the perspective on "the value of time", as I said in the beginning. According to your perspective you measure it in the value of drops. I claim that perspective is only a part of Warframe, and that a much larger part of the players play "for fun", and that what is "fun" differs both between players and for players over time.

I do not accept the logic of inferred entitlement that simply because someone is enjoying a free game that would give the person any special right to "be respected" criticizing or to demand changes in the game. Freely choosing to buy stuff in the game doesn't not come with any such an entitlement either. A vibrant community discussing, criticizing, suggesting, helping each other and generally being active is a godsend for a game like Warframe. I would be very surprised if DE doesn't reads suggestions and critique put forward on the forums with great regard and interest. I would also be very surprised if they care (at all) about the salt, tears, threats to leave, "the end of Warframe" and other such touchy-feely stuff. DE doesn't even need to, they have the stats showing what affects what (and DE is nothing if not nimble with changes, compared to most other developers I've come into contact with during four decades of gaming). Of course they can't really say "get lost" either.

The conclusion of all this is that even if the change (coming today, yeah!) is as horrible as you claim, that claim is of concern only to a (small) part of all Warframe players, not to "the community" as a whole.

 - - -

Finally, I want to thank you for keeping this intricate discussion factual, especially about something that clearly generates lots of feelings. It has been fun (yes, even without any drops 🙂) and interesting, and I hope you haven't felt personally attacked (though I haven't been able to stay 100% irony- & sarcasm-free).

I am also ready to end this. I think anyone actually reading these TL;DR-posts (which they should, tweet-length arguments are made by idiots for idiots 🙂) have a pretty good idea of what this has been about, don't you? I am pretty much done, and in a few hours time I will be checking out Mainline 1/2020, and that'll take at least a month or two, then comes Scarlet Spear and so forth and so on. If you want the last word, let it rip!

Edited by Graavarg
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9 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You're arguing that Warframe is being beaten by PvP games.  They're either PvP or e-sports, because between both of those qualifiers virtually every game put out since 2005 could be considered that.  Warframe is, by definition, a game with PvP.  You then redefine and change the definition to PvP focused, as exemplified by arbitrary qualifiers which are not explained.  You then explain that streaming is your qualifier.  You then arbitrarily assign values to the top 15 games, based off of your own qualifications and what you think people watch things for on streaming.

I did literally none of those things. I always said that the top played games on Steam have a predominantly pvp/esports focus.

So now you're just a blatant liar.

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6 hours ago, Vharu said:

Have you heard of Casinos? 
Have you heard of eSports Tournaments?
Have you heard of Crypto-Currency games?
Have you heard of Skins Trading Economy?
What about Tennogen Artists?
Content Creators?
Streamers?

What about the Wider concept of games....

Hrmm, Sports? Do you know there are professional Tennis players, Football, NFL, Hockey?

I don't think you could of been more wrong with such a statement. 

And this list applies to you playing Warframe how exactly?

And not only you, everybody else playing Warframe as well, I presume.

'Cause I don't get it. Honestly.

I still say Warframe is about investing time and effort for the fun of it, not for earning stuff. And this covers most games played on the planet (computer games, board games, card games, kids games... you name it). Even a lot of gambling for money at casinos/online/lotteries is done for fun and excitement rising from the possibility of winning some money, but not with the primary intent of earning money.

I also fail to grasp what professional sports have to do with you (or me, or anyone) playing Warframe. Anyone that would be thinking they are a "professional Warframe player" because they do Trids and sell arcanes for plat needs to get their head examined, if you ask me. And lots and lots and lots of more people play tennis, football and even hockey for the fun of it than for earning money from it. Many even choose to pay money to do it, it's so much fun.

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2 hours ago, Vharu said:

brah... you have written more arguing then rebecca did with the update.

Are you really that desperate to be validated? 

One of those... 🙂 

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Warframe Revised: Update 27.2.0 is officially live on PC - and so are the following feedback megathreads! Please take the time to review our Update Notes to familiarize yourself with the changes - big and small - before sharing your feedback: 

Please use your powerful feedback responsibly - we all lift together.


Bug Report Megathread! (Read the First Post!): https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1171888-warframe-revised-bug-report-megathread-read-the-first-post/

*This is a more format-driven Bug Report thread to help turnaround quality hotfixes for this Mainline - please follow the requested format provided in the first post!*

General Megathreads: 

Warframe and Weapon Megathreads: 

Art / UI Megathreads:

Mission Megathreads: 

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