April 2020 Riven Disposition Updates & PC Trading PSA

[wilc0x]

Guys, the weapons still work.  In actual gameplay, perceived differences will moslty be very minor.  The rivens you have are still as good, compared to other rivens for that weapon, as they were before.  They still improve the weapons you put them on.  In most cases, they still greatly improve the weapons you put them on.

Some of these changes might be heavy handed, I don't know.  For the most part they look reasonable to me.  Miter and Drakgoon nerfed?  Not sure what up with that.

DE does this a couple times a year.  We knew it was coming.  And we chose to invest in riven mods anyway.  This is what the system was designed for, and this is what it does.  Some of my rivens got nerfed, others got buffed.  Such is the way of things.

I know the game will still be fun to play.  I plan to continue having fun with it.

[dbwu]

I love this game, and I don't see any good reason for you guys turning into another Massive.

[Dr.MARS]

Okay habitually I like the riven dispo change (lately the sybaris got good buff)
But today there something I don't understand, 2 kuva weapon are absent from this riven change, the Karak and Quartakk, why ?
We see the drakgoon slowly approaching the vanilla version (1.05 and 1.4 respectively), but the kuva karak ? The family of karak are always with high dispo (1.35 and 1.28 versus 1 for the kuva). For the Quartakk 1.25 vs 1.

So "As a general rule, weapon dispositions within a certain family are still adjusted partially in relation to one another", just don't apply to kuva weapon ?

 

[-Temp0-]

В 09.04.2020 в 22:38, Ceejay сказал:

are you out of your mind ?

IMAGINE exploiting an OPEN market T B H. give me reddit gold btw and please read my 3 paragraph essay 

You know its funny but a very simple solution to this problem would have been a limit of say 500-1000p per item of trade.

Imagine if that was the highest you could pay or get for a riven (in that case). No one would be trying to seell GoD rOll Bramma for 15k, you'd either get your 500-1000p and piss off or only use it yourself if you think 500-1000 is too little.

[KemonoFetish]

Is this an April Fools joke?

[RavenSword115]

4 hours ago, wilc0x said:

Guys, the weapons still work.  In actual gameplay, perceived differences will moslty be very minor.  The rivens you have are still as good, compared to other rivens for that weapon, as they were before.  They still improve the weapons you put them on.  In most cases, they still greatly improve the weapons you put them on.

Some of these changes might be heavy handed, I don't know.  For the most part they look reasonable to me.  Miter and Drakgoon nerfed?  Not sure what up with that.

DE does this a couple times a year.  We knew it was coming.  And we chose to invest in riven mods anyway.  This is what the system was designed for, and this is what it does.  Some of my rivens got nerfed, others got buffed.  Such is the way of things.

I know the game will still be fun to play.  I plan to continue having fun with it.

the changes are not minor but good on you for trying to have fun, but there is a very very large number of us who have been slapped in the face and see no reason for even trying to play this game as the moment we invest into getting what a kuva weapon or a primed weapon its nerfed into oblivion. i was happy to use the tatsu but it was a bad weapon and i rarely seen anyone using it yet still gets nerfed, even with primed fury it only moved at 1.50 and when going against higher level mobs swinging at that speed before you first hit you are dead, so yeah i wasted so much time trying to roll my riven to get an attack speed buff rolling roughly 130+ then there are my other rivens one for the paracisis which is now useless, at this point i would not be supprised if they touched my corinth riven and if they did well all i see this game good for is log in get a reward then log off to play a more rewarding game rather then be punished for playing. so yes good for you but dont try to change our minds we are fed up and angry 

[Anduvriel]

On 2020-04-10 at 1:27 AM, FlutterAi said:

The issue there is that the the variant isn't sharing the same disposition as the buffed variant and went too low, but that's not a problem inherent with having dispositions in general. Voltage proposed removal of dispositions and instead changing the inherent weapon stats. So, from what was suggested, sounds like the aksomati prime (and others) should be nerfed to be weaker than the base aksomati, rather than lowering the riven disposition for aksomati prime. This would result in more weapons having primes that are weaker than the basic version without a riven, which, to players still working their way to getting everything, is very backwards (and still not fixing the issue of having a riven-modded prime worse than the base weapon!). What should happen, ideally, is not rebalancing the weapons because of rivens, but making sure that disposition changes don't split so far that a prime is generally worse than its base version given the same riven mod. However, allowing the dispositions to be separate still allows earlier gear and certain non-primes to be viable when otherwise they'd be unusable.

Just make sure that the prime is at least 10% stronger always than its normal variant? Its not rocket science, i can do it in 5 minutes for all of them. Its even possible to make pre-loadouts with a riven for both weapons and write a script that counts minimal disposition distance for them to be in that range, so when that poor unpayed student that does riven dispo changes cant do wrong. 

[ElRomero]

DE created Rivens, so many people spend Plat, Time/Life, Kuva to roll them to the stats that they want so they can have fun. DE notices that people are having fun so they nerf them to punish them for daring to use Rivens and having the tenacity to have fun! DE is killing DE. Hubris. 

 

DE does not respect its consumers especially our time that we spend on Warframe but lies that they do.

 

Imagine if DE owned a restaurant and you spent 50 dollars on King-Crab legs but they swap it with imitation crab and tell you to suck it. How long would that restaurant last? Again HUBRIS!

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

On 2020-04-09 at 8:07 AM, Voltage said:

Hopefully you understand (from an invested Riven user) why disposition is inherently flawed and would be better suited for removal with real weapon balance passes taking place.

If my weapon's power level (C) is the combination of it's base stats (A) and the riven I have (B)... A + B = C... then I really don't understand how what you are suggesting is any different than what DE is doing.  They change B to impact C.  You want them to change A instead.  How does that not also change C in exactly the same way? 

In other words, if they nerf the base stats of my nicely riven'ed weapon why would I care how good my riven is?

 

On 2020-04-09 at 8:07 AM, Voltage said:

Same Riven, same build. However, look how similar these weapons are in stats. I can't even hit 100% Critical Chance on the Prime when I can on the vanilla variant.

I guess DE thinks adding almost 25% status chance on a weapon that spits out 13 bullets per second (before multishot) is significant and a powerful upgrade.

[Epsilon_Knight]

DE created rivens specifically to push people towards using lesser used weapons.  They're bad at estimating how many people will use a weapon, so when it's introduced, they give it a placeholder value and then adjust over the following months and years.

Generally, the underused weapons for which the system was created remain at high dispositions.  People are angry due to bad initial design, where extremely powerful weapons got extremely powerful rivens.

Rubico Prime, for example.  Sniper rifles used to have almost zero usage before Eidolons.  Regular Rubico had a high dispo because it had next to no usage.  They introduced Rubico Prime, which is fantastic, into a meta that increasingly values sniper rifles, and at that time it just got the Rubico's dispo, because DE didn't want to split dispos for a very long time.

Gram Prime's riven was hilariously OP for the best heavy sword in the game, and it persisted as long as it did because DE wasn't yet adjusting melee rivens.

Anyone who knew the core purpose of rivens KNEW that making S-tier weapons even more godlike was not the purpose of these mods.  But here we are, talking about people losing their fun because they picked popular weapons of mass destruction and somehow thought the additional-special-bonus-mod-created-for-lesser-used-weapons was always going to keep ultraboosting this stuff.

Yes it's a PVE game, but the purpose of rivens isn't to make the best weapons in the game even more ridiculous, but to encourage players to use a greater variety of weapons.  Also, since it's a PVE game, how upset should you be that you mow down level 200 mobs 4% slower and still blow tf out almost all game content at exactly the same speed?  That's not a power fantasy, it's a numbers fantasy.

[kevoisvevo]

Lets pledge not to use any more rivens. If we crash the riven market then we sink a hole in DE's RL income. Then they will be forced to make a better changes to their slot machine system. Imagine you if pay for a Ferrari but the car designers think you are too fast compared to the rest of the street legal cars so they force you to bring in your car and downgrade it.

[kamisama85]

3 minutes ago, kevoisvevo said:

Lets pledge not to use any more rivens. If we crash the riven market then we sink a hole in DE's RL income. Then they will be forced to make a better changes to their slot machine system. Imagine you if pay for a Ferrari but the car designers think you are too fast compared to the rest of the street legal cars so they force you to bring in your car and downgrade it.

You would need to take away everything else they sell in the fashion frame world, accessories, formas, etc to make such a malicious move such as this. It will never happen. The entire population that plays this game does not spend ungodly amounts of plat on rivens as others pursuing the highest form of the active meta. If you want to blame anyone for the high plat purchases, blame the sellers who are inflating the market, not DE. DE is not the one selling you a riven, you are the one buying plat to obtain it sooner and roll it faster.

[kevoisvevo]

1 minute ago, kamisama85 said:

You would need to take away everything else they sell in the fashion frame world, accessories, formas, etc to make such a malicious move such as this. It will never happen. The entire population that plays this game does not spend ungodly amounts of plat on rivens as others pursuing the highest form of the active meta. If you want to blame anyone for the high plat purchases, blame the sellers who are inflating the market, not DE. DE is not the one selling you a riven, you are the one buying plat to obtain it sooner and roll it faster.

Which is why I support and I hope that both buyers and sellers of rivens just stop trading for a while. A similar thing worked partially for anthem when reddit decided not to play that game. And if that is what makes DE change their minds and address their slot machine issue then so be it. Maybe it won't affect DE much with prime access, tennogen and trading of normal mods but it seems hypocritical of DE to keep on releasing op riven mods just to nerf em later. Might as well just loan and rent rivens then instead of buying/selling. Otherwise the Devs are fine selling and taking advantage of players time and money. Atleast the Devs of path of exile allow you to keep the previous stats of legendaries/uniques and their changes apply to the newer version NOT the old ones.

[DrakeWurrum]

On 2020-04-09 at 10:07 AM, Voltage said:

Riven mods are the embodiment of a time investment. Whether you work a full/part time job to buy Platinum, spend time trading for Platinum, or farm Kuva, you invest time into your Riven Mods in some fashion. We get it, Rivens are a balance fiasco. Most players gravitate towards investing into Riven Mods for weapons that are either new, good, or both. However, disposition as a mechanic fails to improve the health of Rivens, and it is just a crap-shoot from a balance perspective as well as a time investment perspective. People will always use Rivens for inherently good weapons, and weapons such as Rubico Prime or Catchmoon prove this. This mechanic has consistently failed since its inception years ago, and there will never be any long term benefit to these 90 day changes.

Can we please see the removal of disposition and see a weapons balance pass every 90 days instead? Shifting changes to actual weapon stats instead of the mods we invest in would not only benefit players, but create a healthier gear system. Investing in more gear in the game would be more appealing as the actual weapon would become more appealing and interesting to try, not just a single mod that might be nerfed again later.

The separation of disposition between weapon variants is also increasingly horrible as your Riven Mod improves. The perfect example right from this thread is Aksomati and its Prime. The Prime variant of this weapon just received another slight nerf to the disposition compared to the vanilla weapon, yet the Prime itself is hardly an upgrade in the base stats. This closes the gap in performance to an amount that makes it undesirable to even bother with a Prime variant of your favorite weapon. Why do I use Aksomati as an example? Here is why:

Aksomati:

Aksomati Prime (After Patch):

Same Riven, same build. However, look how similar these weapons are in stats. I can't even hit 100% Critical Chance on the Prime when I can on the vanilla variant. It just feels bad to invest into Rivens when this happens and discourages players with good Rivens to touch variant upgrades with slight stat bonuses (which have been many recent variants lately). The Prime barely feels different than the vanilla weapon thanks to this difference in disposition, and this makes the upgraded version of the weapon boring and lackluster.

Hopefully you understand (from an invested Riven user) why disposition is inherently flawed and would be better suited for removal with real weapon balance passes taking place. Please start respecting the investments of players more when it comes to their gear. Riven Mods outright take the cake as the largest investment into an optimal weapon setup, and disposition only hurts this.

This is the most well-thought-out explanation for the problem with Riven disposition that I've ever seen. Holy crap is that a huge problem. I mean the trade-off of 9% crit chance for 22% status chance might be worth it, but the raw damage decrease in particular is glaring.

Guess it was a mistake to get rid of my base Aksomati. =\
I normally get rid of the base versions of weapons when the variant has better raw stats in order to save on weapon slots, but I hadn't even considered Riven disposition.

  

1 hour ago, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

They change B to impact C.  You want them to change A instead.  How does that not also change C in exactly the same way? 

The point of changing the base stats instead of the Riven disposition is to help balance out weapons that currently are undesirable because their base stats mean the weapon is trash no matter what Riven you put on.

In the post you quoted, he demonstrates a flawless example of the problem with Riven disposition by showing how Aksomati's Riven disposition gives it better crit and damage than Aksomati Prime.

It's also a major problem for the players that simply don't find Rivens appealing and don't bother engaging with them. The balance changes to Riven disposition mean NOTHING for people who either don't use Rivens or don't have Rivens for a weapon.

If they instead balanced the base weapon, they could make the weapon itself good, and Rivens would be an extra boost to make them even more fun.

It's also a problem that these mods themselves can change in actual value as a result of changes to dispositions. People invest time and energy into these mods to perfect their builds based on the Riven roll they got, so when the disposition changes just how much value that Riven has, it totally #*!%s up all the work they did.
Changing the base stats of the weapon would at least not affect the effort put into that specific mod, but re-balance the weapon as a whole.

Frankly, Riven disposition just makes everything way too confusing, especially between variants.

[NickelStiller]

39 minutes ago, kamisama85 said:

You would need to take away everything else they sell in the fashion frame world, accessories, formas, etc to make such a malicious move such as this. It will never happen. The entire population that plays this game does not spend ungodly amounts of plat on rivens as others pursuing the highest form of the active meta. If you want to blame anyone for the high plat purchases, blame the sellers who are inflating the market, not DE. DE is not the one selling you a riven, you are the one buying plat to obtain it sooner and roll it faster.

But... The sellers sell them for platinum, that DE sells to people for real currency. And rivens are the part of a system that was made and is altered by DE. So yeah... I don't think that I can blame the sellers for using this designed environment.

[aruless]

On 2020-04-09 at 10:07 AM, Voltage said:

Riven mods are the embodiment of a time investment. Whether you work a full/part time job to buy Platinum, spend time trading for Platinum, or farm Kuva, you invest time into your Riven Mods in some fashion. We get it, Rivens are a balance fiasco. Most players gravitate towards investing into Riven Mods for weapons that are either new, good, or both. However, disposition as a mechanic fails to improve the health of Rivens, and it is just a crap-shoot from a balance perspective as well as a time investment perspective. People will always use Rivens for inherently good weapons, and weapons such as Rubico Prime or Catchmoon prove this. This mechanic has consistently failed since its inception years ago, and there will never be any long term benefit to these 90 day changes.

Can we please see the removal of disposition and see a weapons balance pass every 90 days instead? Shifting changes to actual weapon stats instead of the mods we invest in would not only benefit players, but create a healthier gear system. Investing in more gear in the game would be more appealing as the actual weapon would become more appealing and interesting to try, not just a single mod that might be nerfed again later.

The separation of disposition between weapon variants is also increasingly horrible as your Riven Mod improves. The perfect example right from this thread is Aksomati and its Prime. The Prime variant of this weapon just received another slight nerf to the disposition compared to the vanilla weapon, yet the Prime itself is hardly an upgrade in the base stats. This closes the gap in performance to an amount that makes it undesirable to even bother with a Prime variant of your favorite weapon. Why do I use Aksomati as an example? Here is why:

Aksomati:

Aksomati Prime (After Patch):

Same Riven, same build. However, look how similar these weapons are in stats. I can't even hit 100% Critical Chance on the Prime when I can on the vanilla variant. It just feels bad to invest into Rivens when this happens and discourages players with good Rivens to touch variant upgrades with slight stat bonuses (which have been many recent variants lately). The Prime barely feels different than the vanilla weapon thanks to this difference in disposition, and this makes the upgraded version of the weapon boring and lackluster.

Hopefully you understand (from an invested Riven user) why disposition is inherently flawed and would be better suited for removal with real weapon balance passes taking place. Please start respecting the investments of players more when it comes to their gear. Riven Mods outright take the cake as the largest investment into an optimal weapon setup, and disposition only hurts this.

This is bad, if DE is gonna been doing this, why bother to get a prime weapon if is gonna have worst damage vs the vanilla with the "same riven". Diferent dispo cause is prime is stupid.

[AbyssalSerpent]

Typical: DE nerfs yet more rivens for weapons that are barely powerful or used to begin with, yet they turn a blind eye when it comes to game-breaking bugs.

Bravo.

[pecanin]

Don't have so much to say ,except about riven changes ..terrible

[Chronometria]

Why use prime versions of weapons when rivens make the base versions better? The whole situation with the aksomati is just sad at this point.

[Dante6th]

He is very discouraged lately because of how the DE and his latest updates are doing but every time I care less about his ads and the truth is that I do not feel like using rivens anymore

[Dargadon]

No one uses Paracesis -> Scarlet Spear and New War starts -> Everyone using Paracesis as anti-sentient weapon -> DE nerfs Paracesis as overused

What an outstanding move

[Berzerkules]

14 hours ago, Scar.brother.help.me said:

After this disposition 2 of my finetuned weapons lost a 100% crit chance, 2 are now less than x4 initial combo, some single shot weps were 2.0, 2.1, 3.1 multishot, now they became 1.9, 2.9, etc...
I understand that Rivens are designed to be like that, but I doubt I will ever put any effort in it again, this design is too damn unrewarding and pushing away. I'd never use those if some Corrupted mods were improved/created to get 100% crit 100-200% multishot, etc. Big dislike for the riven disposition changes and rip my invested time on farming plat and kuva to make those rolls.

This. Does DE realize how much of a pain it is to find or roll a riven with +30 initial combo? You pretty much need a +2/-1 riven with a high initial combo roll. Even a slight change in dispo will destroy that build. I had a heavy attack Cyath zaw with 31 inital combo/220% cc/-chance to gain combo. Was running exodia brave for energy regen and life strike for life steal. It was a stupid utility machete. Now with a -.1 dispo change my riven has 28.5 initial combo. Build destroyed. 

[PETI258]

I stopped caring for rivens a long time ago (I think when you first changed the dispositions for my Vectis riven which I have spent a lot of plat on and now it is back again on 1.)

Now I just use the regular mods in my weapons I don't try to make it better only if I already have a good riven.

If the system weren't random^4 and we could use some "kuva weapon" merge magic I wouldn't be so against these but everything is "luck" to get it so taking 5-10-15% effectiveness of a mod just because people are using it is just bad in my opinion.

So there has to be a better way of doing these rivens and for people not to waste thousands of hours and show for a good mod or a lucky person who got a way better one for the first time it was opened.

[(PSN)Agent_CHAR]

7 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

In the post you quoted, he demonstrates a flawless example of the problem with Riven disposition by showing how Aksomati's Riven disposition gives it better crit and damage than Aksomati Prime.

But that one stat on a page of stats doesn't make the base aksomati better than the prime.  You can't cherry pick one stat and ignore all the others.  But you are correct the prime is trash tier and we (you all) should all sell them for credits.  I need my disposition to go up instead of down xD

7 hours ago, DrakeWurrum said:

 The balance changes to Riven disposition mean NOTHING for people who either don't use Rivens or don't have Rivens for a weapon.

Exactly.  DE can't nerf my gun with a disposition change when I don't own a riven or the stats aren't good enough to care.  Changes go both ways bud.  Rivens go up and weapons can go down.

EDIT -- I think I want to clarify one point in this.  I think you and the OP are getting way too focused on the corner case anomaly that is the aksomati and are trying to use that one exception to justify a hugely impactful change to the game.  Do you REALLY want DE messing with weapon base stats every 90 days just because the aksomati exists?  I sure don't.

If instead this was a thread entitled "buff the aksomati prime" you'd have my full support.

[Graavarg]

If the dispo for all weapon's rivens will continue to go up and down, could you please allow us to have rivens for ALL our weapons. By removing the arbitrary 120 riven limit.

That way it would be possible to actually already have some of the rivens being buffed, which would even out the disappointment coming from the nerfs. But with a limit of 120 rivens, players will sell, destroy or transmogrify all those potentially buff-worthy rivens in the hope of getting currently powerful rivens (which will undoubtedly be nerfed at some later date).

The 120 riven limit together with disposition changes is thus a mechanism that is guaranteed to bring much more salt, sorrow, unhappiness and disappointment in the game. To spell it out once more, since we players have to get rid of rivens due to the arbitrary set max limit we will mostly keep our "strong" rivens. We will also use those weapons we have rivens for when we play. This will lead to the stats showing that the weapon is "over-used" and the rivens too strong. Which in turn will lead to our favourite and best rivens being nerfed. And all those rivens being buffed, those that now became interesting and potentially fun, well, those were the ones we destroyed, sold or transmogrified because we couldn't keep them due to the limit.

So no wonder players are pissed at this system. And not only that, it will never change, because time and time again (every three months now) a lot of players will once again have most of their favourite rivens nerfed and not have any fun rivens that gets buffed. This is not good for the players, it is not good for the game and it is definitely not good for DE (and it's parent company). So when you are out on the other side of Scarlet Spear, maybe someone should really think about this?

I am happy for all those that have odd weapons they love to use and now got a buff for them. I have some myself (though I can't understand the Kuva Tonkor nerf, I've very rarely seen anyone use it, though I actually like it a lot). That "hey, some of the weapons I have rivens for got buffed" is the "happy" side of riven changes, something that you should make available to all players. So just remove the limit in a smart and thoughtful way, so that everyone can save and keep as many of their "strange/bad weapon" rivens they like. And maybe actually enjoy the dispo change roulette.

And while you are at it, please fix this stupidity of making Prime weapons worse than or even with their normal variants (as per Voltages extremely clarifying example). It makes no sense whatsoever, in fact it is the antithesis of sense. Prime weapons should ALWAYS be clearly stronger than their normal variants if both have the same riven (and mods) equipped.