Kuva Bramma Changes: Explanation and Timeline.

[Blaze13]

Fun detected cant have that S#&$. I still dont understand why DE has no clue on how to nerf in moderation. 

[Captain_Rocket505]

3 minutes ago, KCToxic said:

The ammo reserve reduction and the reduction in ammo pickups seems like overkill. The reduction to 5 puts it in line with the Lenz, but the Lenz has ammo mutation built in. The Lenz by design also encourages more careful shots due to the explosion delay, which is in opposition to the instant results the Bramma gives with its cluster bombs. 

I don't mind the other changes, though. 

I fully agree tho looking at the things people are saying here I also think maybe very slightly reducing the number of pellets that are launched would help as well. Then again the changes aren't the worse from what I've experienced. 

[mikakor]

19 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

rly?

3 enemies, each one in their own spot, you're going to use a charge weapon that you'll need to charge 3 times and launch a projectile with travel speed to kill 3 enemies?

I'm not sure at what speed you play the game, but with me, consider yourself lucky to even get the 1st enemy.

I'm not saying it's a bad weapon, it's just it's a terrible choice for anything productive, because of all the games i've had so far with bramma players, all failed to be productive with the weapon alone and are usually outpaced by other player using other weapons.

then you were with really, really bad players. there's a reason why bramma is so used.

[DreadWarlock]

6 minutes ago, UpForRevision said:

Again and again the new thing gets nerfed.  Umm how about buffing the riven disposition of the weapons that aren't used instead of focusing on the working functioning ones people are enjoying.  Bring the rest back up to par IMO.

Sorry but have you played Scarlet Spear? Kuva Bramma did have it comming, the weapon was indeed a little overpowered. It was the only weapon that could decimate the condrixes even after they were fully scaled, the Kuva Chakkhurr, the Rubico Prime, The Lanka, even the Redeemer prime couldn't hold a candle to it, that's how powerful this weapon is. Like DE said the weapon is supposed to be among the top tiers, however instead of "among" it was undisputedly the absolute top tier. But of course this doesn't warrant an excessive nerf. Which is why they posted here first so they can listen to our feedback

[StratosOmega]

While this was obviously something everyone could see coming, I do think the nerfs are a bit on the excessive side.
It is fine and dandy to try and change some stats, but nerfing almost across the entire board and throwing breadcrumbs while saying "but we increased damage" (which is not true! reducing the fall-off while taking away 4 out of 7 exploding projectiles, over 50% of them, is not going to turn out as "increased damage", even after lifting the damage fall-off by 50%) feels indeed a bit... satirical, almost.

I get that you want to adjust it so that it doesn't overshadow the other Kuva weapons but what if people actually do not use some of the Kuva weapons... because they don't like how they work mechanically? This shouldn't come as a surprise but if people think that something does not feel "fun" it will not be used unless it is broken beyond help. And I feel this is not only the case with Kuva weapons. People will choose some weapons over others because they feel better to use, elevated stats are only skewing the perception of the players.

So we might take this a step further and assume that's exactly the reason why we see a surge in melee buffs ever since people complained about melee 2.0. We're in a good spot for melees, sure, but many melee weapons didn't see much use because of either range, their stances or their mechanics overall. But the overarching prowess of melee in the current build is just a testament to "stats over everything". I am also pretty sure melee weapons with the best feeling are being used right now since the majority of melee weapons are in more than a good position damage wise. From what I've seen there are a few outliers that are simply more desirable because good stats + good feeling/mechnically interesting, or more accurately: the mechanics and the feeling of the weapon create a area of high usage. Damage is just icing here. But if you were to take away a bit of everything, the weapon in itself might not work as intended anymore, rendering it undesired or even useless for a lot of players.

This post is trying to contribute constructive criticism, analyizing the root of why weapons get discarted the way they are for years now and why it might be in everyone's interest to look into how a weapon works, how it benefits from which stat and how you can effectively lower the damage ceiling while retaining core functionality.

[__Fy__]

I honestly disagree with these changes seeing how easy it is already to run out of ammo, especially for newer players. As in the the damage, it's not great for anything higher than mid-tier enemies at best, and takes a lot of Formaing and high-tier mods and maybe even a Riven to compare to other Primary weapons. I think y'all paying too much attention to the usage stats, instead of why they're using it....which is because it's fun. I don't bring it to missions in place of my Ignis Wraith for it's damage, I bring it because it's just really fun to use. For the payoff of having a hard time to farm for it, then forma and mod it, I think the pay-off is balanced nicely.

[(PSN)Colossal_PR]

I will never understand why in a PVE game weapons get so many nerfs. Are the corpus complaining alot? Like Jesusss Christ, test something before you release it! There is a reason why people are using it alot. Maybe because it's a fun weapon. It's like take away all the fun of a funless game. It's a PVE game! 

[gundamaster]

that kind of thing that makes us stop playing ...  we spend a lot of time studying a weapon to make it as efficient as possible and, because of crying, they destroy the weapon like many others, at least a significant damage bonus to compensate ... or better yet, return with your own damage that no one else uses as before.

 

[Bloody_Sunshine]

a bow with 5 arrows

great

[DreadWarlock]

 

 

Just now, Bloody_Sunshine said:

a bow with 5 arrows

great

Well Lenz has 6, not much of a difference.

[-CLM-Joker]

1 hour ago, (PS4)nononom12 said:

Thank you sooooo much! This has been long overdue as the weapon is insanely broken.

And that enriches your experience...how exactly?

Don't get me wrong, I fully expected the Bramma to get nerfed, especially given the amount of players using it.

But cheering over it?
Warframe is a PvE game, the nerf of a weapon brings no benefit to you, yet you're happy about it...

I will never understand this attitude.

[JARM_KILLER]

😧

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

9 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Because:

1) Weapons already got a balance pass in 2018 with their overall damage being tied to the expected damage ballpark of their MR bracket. They are already where DE want them.

2) Outliers are the ones to be reigned in to fit in with the power of the rest based on the weapon's MR bracket. Doing the opposite by bringing the rest to outlier levels results in the rest of the game needing to be rebalanced around the outliers. You can hear this straight from Pablo's mouth at this timestamp in which he presents the example of the implication of, for example, raising the Rubico to the level of the Bramma and what the Rubico's buffs would need to entail so it can compete against the Bramma.

3) Least used weapons, if they are low MR weapons, are expected to remain in low usage because an MR1 weapon MUST NOT compete with an MR15 weapon. This is true for every single stats-based game from Final Fantasy to Diablo to Borderlands to Nioh.

1. Where they want it isn't where we as a community need it to be. Variety in a game like this is important, especially when you have countless weapons, Warframes, companions, etc. When most of your arsenal is outclassed by just a couple dozen weapons that feel relatively similar, they're all you'll ever see in later stages. That inherent lack of variety doesn't reinforce the potential diversity that this game has to offer.
2. Not much to really argue with here. Different weapons with different mechanics & play-styles are capable of different feats. Reigning in the big guns is just one way to clamp down on balance issues. But once again, MR shouldn't be the standard for how we address balance. There are some weapons that can potentially disregard the standards this rule has set. Stug is objectively one of the worst weapons due to the mechanics that hold it back beyond what other MR2 weapons are capable of. You'll get better performance out of the Boar or Vectis long before Stug ever kills a single target.
3. Emulation is oftentimes seen as an attempt at flattery, but Warframe should go above & beyond the limitations these games have set for themselves, Warframe can & should be the exception rather than another culprit complicit in the stats game. Borderlands 2, with the absurd gap between OP levels & necessity of the slag element, is not an example we should follow. That methodology is anything but balanced. The gap between MR fodder & some of the best weapons is huge. This power creep you see has potential repercussions that could impact the health of this game for years to come. I'm not expecting the Mk 1. weapons to surpass anything in the arsenal, but we can at least establish proper tiers in which to balance everything instead of leaving countless other weapons to collect dust. A proper middle ground needs to be established. This is something rivens, with their constant buffs & nerfs based solely on popularity, will never be able to solve. In fact, rivens should just remains as the the gimmicks they've always been instead of necessities for some of our less-than-stellar weapons.

[TARINunit9]

4 hours ago, -TSA-KenSasaki said:

Again: its a PvE game... cant understand why we need so balance changes. Bramma is good how it is, yes it does tons of dmg and now? I saw other weapons that u can brake with riven so hard, the bramma is a joke to this but there comes 0 changes.
First the S#&$ with the Zenistar that no one plays now cause its #*!%ign annoying, now the bramma, whats next? rly, its just stupid...

I agree with you on the Zenistar nerf, but let me explain why DE still nerfs stuff even in "a PvE game":

They're artists

Artists hate it when they're only remembered for one thing, especially if it was the thing they didn't work the hardest on. Anyone remember Silicon Knights? They had an extended period where they HATED Eternal Darkness, because it was all they were remembered for. Likewise, DE is actually most proud of weapons like the Braton

In addition, I think DE are actually going rather light on the Bramma. Damage at the center of the explosion is getting reduced 60%, but the explosion is now bigger and has better falloff

3 hours ago, -CLM-Joker said:

And that enriches your experience...how exactly?

I can't speak for him, but it enriches my experience: I'll no longer suffer a framerate drop when looking at a Bramma Mirage. No other weapon in the game does that to me, they could Nukor or Plasmor as much as they wanted and I'd still sit at 59.5, it was only the Bramma summoning 40 cluster bombs per shot that made me lag

[SanguineTheJester]

After all the trouble I went through to get the Bramma, this stings quite a bit. And I know others went through a lot more hell than I did to get it. There's quite a few Kuva weapons that, from what I've heard, aren't worth the trouble it takes to get them - the Seer and the Shildeg, for example. The former's ridiculous zoom and painfully long reload are enough to make anyone question why the cosmos despise them, and with the latter, it feels more like you're hitting enemies with a flimsy branch rather than the Jat Kittag's edgy brother.

With this Bramma nerf, if it must happen, at least only bring the ammo down to 10 rather than 5. Just to lighten the blow a little.

[Mavolent]

bless you rebb, bramma is such a annoyance in missions
it deserved a nerf

[Vajet]

Bow playable?!?! Nerf it to the ground! Bow useless again.

I mean I know the drill and don't really care because I can always adapt. I'd like to know the intention though. Balancing in this game is obviously weird. There are dozens of useless weapons in this game. So there will always be a few favorites. Just looking at the numbers of weapons used and nerfing them will not stop this from happening. I'd rather see new strong weapons or buffed existing weapons every now and then to keep it interesting instead of nerfing whatever pops up as popular on your data sheets. There are too many other games where developers follow that path (Path of Exile being a prime example).

[KaizergidorahXi]

Finally. Regardless of what the people who are butthurt say, in every public mission I've played someone uses the Bramma and that person ALWAYS gets the most kills unless there's a saryn in the group.

[p_silveira]

Thank god, it was about time. Public mode will be playable again, I hope.

[Bloody_Sunshine]

2 minutes ago, KaizergidorahXi said:

Finally. Regardless of what the people who are butthurt say, in every public mission I've played someone uses the Bramma and that person ALWAYS gets the most kills unless there's a saryn in the group.

damn they really getting that easy mvp arent they

[Talinthis]

9 minutes ago, -CLM-Joker said:

And that enriches your experience...how exactly?

Don't get me wrong, I fully expected the Bramma to get nerfed, especially given the amount of players using it.

But cheering over it?
Warframe is a PvE game, the nerf of a weapon brings no benefit to you, yet you're happy about it...

I will never understand this attitude.

it enriches and benefits my experience by being able to see instead of having hot pink explosions all over my screen for the entire mission, so i will cheer over it. anything with a modicum of aiming was damn near impossible with explosions every half a second since most of the bramma uses seemed to aim it at my face firing haphazardly since they had infinite arrows. i would have been fine with an option to reduce ally weapon fx or something but less clusters works well too.

[gundamaster]

19 minutes ago, SanguineTheJester said:

After all the trouble I went through to get the Bramma, this stings quite a bit. And I know others went through a lot more hell than I did to get it. There's quite a few Kuva weapons that, from what I've heard, aren't worth the trouble it takes to get them - the Seer and the Shildeg, for example. The former's ridiculous zoom and painfully long reload are enough to make anyone question why the cosmos despise them, and with the latter, it feels more like you're hitting enemies with a flimsy branch rather than the Jat Kittag's edgy brother.

With this Bramma nerf, if it must happen, at least only bring the ammo down to 10 rather than 5. Just to lighten the blow a little.

for me ammunition is the least of the problems, the rest is worrying...  every time they deal with weapon damage to make it unusable, like what happened in the synoid that remains ruined today, even with its buff, it doesn't even come close to what it was .. it could even have only 3 arrows that don't move in the rest.

 

[CodeVauban]

And Lenz reigns superior once again.

[SanguineTheJester]

7 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I agree with you on the Zenistar nerf, but let me explain why DE still nerfs stuff even in "a PvE game":

They're artists

Artists hate it when they're only remembered for one thing, especially if it was the thing they didn't work the hardest on. Anyone remember Silicon Knights? They had an extended period where they HATED Eternal Darkness, because it was all they were remembered for. Likewise, DE is actually most proud of weapons like the Braton

In addition, I think DE are actually going rather light on the Bramma. Damage at the center of the explosion is getting reduced 60%, but the explosion is now bigger and has better falloff

Proud of the Braton? That's funny, since in my experience, the Braton is about as effective against enemies as a garden hose. As for the Bramma, that ammo nerf is gonna sting. A lot. Especially since they're reducing how much it gets back from pickups. The Lenz comparison seems apt; it's an explode-y bow that only has 5 base ammo. Difference is, that has built in ammo mutation. They need to give us something a little more to compensate for that drastic reduction.

[Jarriaga]

40 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

1. Where they want it isn't where we as a community need it to be. Variety in a game like this is important, especially when you have countless weapons, Warframes, companions, etc. When most of your arsenal is outclassed by just a couple dozen weapons that feel relatively similar, they're all you'll ever see in later stages. That inherent lack of variety doesn't reinforce the potential diversity that this game has to offer.

That's an argument for making new weapons in the higher damage/progression tiers that feel different from other weapons in the same damage/progression tier rather than negating damage/progression tiers altogether.

40 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

2. Not much to really argue with here. Different weapons with different mechanics & play-styles are capable of different feats. Reigning in the big guns is just one way to clamp down on balance issues. But once again, MR shouldn't be the standard for how we address balance. There are some weapons that can potentially disregard the standards this rule has set. Stug is objectively one of the worst weapons due to the mechanics that hold it back beyond what other MR2 weapons are capable of. You'll get better performance out of the Boar or Vectis long before Stug ever kills a single target.

Yet there needs to be a form of progression that separates Level 1/MR1 players from the firepower expected from Level 100/MR15 players. What do you propose then? Because what you are suggesting here can not be done without equalizing firepower to the point you deal the same damage on Earth (When starting the game) and in Sorties. If the Stug is too weak for its damage bracket, then buff it within the context of other MR2 weapons rather than an MR15 weapon. Alternatively, lower its MR rank so it no longer gets compared to the Boar or Vectis, but rather to the Lato and Seer. Either way it stops being an outlier in the context of other MR2 weapons.

40 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:

3. Emulation is oftentimes seen as an attempt at flattery, but Warframe should go above & beyond the limitations these games have set for themselves, Warframe can & should be the exception rather than another culprit complicit in the stats game. Borderlands 2, with the absurd gap between OP levels & necessity of the slag element, is not an example we should follow. That methodology is anything but balanced. The gap between MR fodder & some of the best weapons is huge. This power creep you see has potential repercussions that could impact the health of this game for years to come. I'm not expecting the Mk 1. weapons to surpass anything in the arsenal, but we can at least establish proper tiers in which to balance everything instead of leaving countless other weapons to collect dust. A proper middle ground needs to be established. This is something rivens, with their constant buffs & nerfs based solely on popularity, will never be able to solve. In fact, rivens should just remains as the the gimmicks they've always been instead of necessities for some of our less-than-stellar weapons.

Back to the point above though: What do you propose instead while ensuring that an MR1 player doesn't have the same firepower an MR15 player has? "Mastery fodder" doesn't work in the context of the power bracket it belongs to and lower brackets. Outliers like the Stug need a buff, but if you're comparing the Stug (MR2 secondary) to the Tigris Prime (MR13 primary) instead of comparing it to the Castanas (MR3 secondary) you're doing it wrong.