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[DE]Megan

Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

This was our oversight, our mistake, and we apologize for the time it took to formulate a plan and address this.

Text doesn't convey tone, but I appreciate this.
 

38 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Our plan is not to nerf the base powers of the Warframes involved, or the Mods that amplify the issue (Blood Rush / Weeping Wounds / Gladiator Mod Set), as doing so isn’t fair as it’s a reaction to a single weapon. In turn, we have planned to only change the interactions with the Xoris directly. 

Very excellent - treating the problem with a scalpel rather than a sledgehammer.
Again, I approve of this, and appreciate that you decided to take this approach.
In that vein:
 

38 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

the Mods that amplify the issue

Wouldn't the most direct solution be to disallow these mods from affecting exalted weapons and abilities?
Or is there a 'spaghetti code' issue?
Or am I just wrong?

 

38 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used.

At first glance, this seems fair.

I'm not sure how much impact the Xoris extending combo duration vs using Naramon and say Body Count has, but either way thank you for the... idk, 'limited collateral' approach. No snark.

Edited by Chroia
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Posted (edited)

Fair nerf and good approach considering you are not targeting mods and warfames themeself... which happend in the past that row of mods and warframes was nerfed because of a single interaction with some gun or some mode.

 

Im glad to see this approach instead, I feel this is very fair and deserved. Thank you for adressing it in such manner!

(By reading the forum I see a lot of people approve of that approach too! Great work dev team, keep it going! ❤️ )

 

Edited by CuteFoxyFox
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1 minute ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Oh great, see what complaining got us? Now every one of them is getting a function removed and they’re even looking into the Gladiator set as well!

Sorry, DE, but it has to be said; Exalted Melee is literally one of the worst melee types to use right now because of all the things that don’t affect them. Unless you’re planning on buffing them more, you can’t just take away one of the only scaling functions that they have. Unlike regular melee these have a Drain cost to them, as well as worse modding options, when the additional cost should make them better performers than their counterparts.

This right here. Exalted melees are in a very rough spot right now. They need some serious love.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Kylo. said:

Like Mag and Saryn except Mesa needs LoS?

Yeah, let's use saryn, a frame that even devs (Pablo, i think) call problematic and thinking about nerfing, as a justification of mesa not being OP. Hey, why won't we just skip all this fuss and jump straight to octavia instead?

I can use a bad example to make my point look more valid too, you know. Compare mesa to excal, who btw is worse in pretty much every way possible yet is getting a third nerf already over these five years while mesa gets no nerfs whatsoever, and tell me how mesa is balanced.

Edited by GREF_TM
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I'm scared as to how many things this will bug

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, DoveCannon said:

27.5.4 - 28.0.7

Garuda's Talons are still unaffected by Blood Rush, Weeping Wounds, and the Gladiator set bonus. All of these are still equippable with no effect or set effect.

Exalted melee weapons are still unaffected by the Gladiator set bonus. These set mods are still equippable with no set effect.

 

Exalted melee weapons are affected by Gladiator mods that aren't on the Exalted melee.  You can't throw Gladiator mods on your Exalted and get the set bonus but you can throw them on your frame and your regular melee, or Helios' Deconstructor, and still benefit while using the Exalted melee weapon.
Personally, I don't see why Exalted weapons don't get to add to the set bonus since they've already fixed the issue of getting the set bonus twice off the same mod being used on melee and Deconstructor (allowing full bonus without needing the Warframe mods) and set mods not working on Exalted gear is the main reason I don't have the Hunter set Khora loadout I'd planned to have.

5 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Wouldn't the most direct solution be to disallow these mods from affecting exalted weapons and abilities?
Or is there a 'spaghetti code' issue?
Or am I just wrong?

I would've been quite annoyed if a weapon I'm not even using cost me the Gladiator set on my Valkyr build's Hysteria.

Edited by Katinka

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Well we are looking at it from different perspectives. That said I am confident that my assessment is accurate. 

3 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Xoris allowed me to use blade storm more, it was fun, not overpowered. Xoris itself isn't wildly strong as a weapon, other weapons can pump out much more damage, and you could just do that and be a room-blender instead of...I don't know, using a warframe a bility because you have them to use them, yes?

I can see two possible outcomes here. First being they add other options down the road for infinite combo, or abilities are changed. Both of which may be happening as Megan's wording did not seem to imply that infinite combo is dead just postponed due to it being just one weapon currently that allowed it. 

They could make something that has infinite combo for X amount of time but my napkin math says this would just be the same problem as the Xoris. We will just have to wait and see.

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vor 39 Minuten schrieb [DE]Megan:

In conclusion, Warframe Abilities / Exalted Warframe weapons affected by this are:

  • Ash Bladestorm
  • Atlas Landslide
  • Baruuk Serene Storm
  • Excalibur Exalted Blade
  • Khora Whipclaw
  • Valkyr Talons
  • Wukong Iron Staff

 

Special note: Gara’s Shattered Lash will now scale with Melee Combo Counter, to be consistent with Khora Whipclaw and Atlas Landslide. The same Xoris restriction will still apply.

That change is only fair if you also prevent rivens from affecting the bolded (by me) abilities. Effectively statstick rivens are warframe rivens and that needs to be solved asap.

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Exalted weapons have fallen behind hard since recent changes, are there any plans in the pipeline to address this? Being unable to make use of blood rush, weeping wounds, or even combo extending mods really hurts the exalted weapons compared to standard melee, not to mention that...well the exalted melee are one trick ponies that rely on augments to be good(baruuk's augment and excalibur's come to mind) and without them they are *vastly* underpowered compared to standard melee, but the most noticeable is exalted blade.

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5 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

Yeah, let's use saryn, a frame that even devs (Pablo, i think) call problematic and thinking about nerfing, as a justification of mesa not being OP. Hey, why won't we just skipp all this fuss and jump straight to octavia instead?

I can use a bad example to make my point look more valid too, you know. Compare mesa to excal, who worse in pretty much every way possible but is getting a third nerf already over these five years while mesa gets no nerfs whatsoever, and tell me how mesa is balanced.

Weird, you never mentioned the other frame I did mention.

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Posted (edited)

Honestly, this is a perfectly reasonable change. This one weapon was an outlier that resulted in an immense boost to certain abilities's power that would have required all of those abilities to be reworked if it was left unchecked.

 

Why doesn't this logic apply to Rivens???

Edited by Brawlatron
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more nerfs than content. keep it up

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Sounds good, but be careful it doesn't break on the future please. I can already see a bug report of "X ability isn't scaling with *any* weapon" 😛

Thanks for the heads up Megan 😄

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

Yeah, let's use saryn, a frame that even devs (Pablo, i think) call problematic and thinking about nerfing, as a justification of mesa not being OP. Hey, why won't we just skipp all this fuss and jump straight to octavia instead?

I can use a bad example to make my point look more valid too, you know. Compare mesa to excal, who worse in pretty much every way possible but is getting a third nerf already over these five years while mesa gets no nerfs whatsoever, and tell me how mesa is balanced.

anything pablo says can be ignored, the guy is the MR0 of the De team anything "good" pablo want to nerf.

this is why people hate him and the first saryn rework

Edited by paulogabbi
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4 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Exalted melee weapons are affected by Gladiator mods that aren't on the Exalted melee.  You can't throw Gladiator mods on your Exalted and get the set bonus but you can throw them on your frame and your regular melee, or Helios' Deconstructor, and still benefit while using the Exalted melee weapon.
Personally, I don't see why Exalted weapons don't get to add to the set bonus since they've already fixed the issue of getting the set bonus twice off the same mod being used on melee and Deconstructor (allowing full bonus without needing the Warframe mods) and set mods not working on Exalted gear is the main reason I don't have the Hunter set Khora loadout I'd planned to have.

The issue is not the mods on the Exalted themselves, you can have the full Gladiator bonus active, and it currently does not affect Exalted melee weapons at all. Its been like this for a number of patches.

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I don't know Xoris much. But Titania is not on the list. So her melee/gun will not (or were they ever?) be affected?

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Just now, Raitlor said:

The issue is not the mods on the Exalted themselves, you can have the full Gladiator bonus active, and it currently does not affect Exalted melee weapons at all. Its been like this for a number of patches.

I'll need to retest then but last I checked I was getting the Gladiator bonus with Hysteria.

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On one hand, fixing this interaction makes sense for balance reasons, but on the other I feel this warrants taking a look at the melee combo counter, as it doesn't seem to be in the best place. Drifting Contact / Body Count are band-aids to a base combo counter duration that is far too low on its own, and stacking buff mods like Blood Rush only become abusive in edge cases where one attacks for sufficiently long, and can maintain the combo counter for that duration, for the bonus to become a problem. Capping the bonuses of those stacking mods and extending the base combo counter duration, or even making it infinite, could potentially address those problems without having to special-case future weapons if they happen to have the Xoris's infinite combo duration.

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5 minutes ago, Katinka said:

Exalted melee weapons are affected by Gladiator mods that aren't on the Exalted melee.  You can't throw Gladiator mods on your Exalted and get the set bonus but you can throw them on your frame and your regular melee, or Helios' Deconstructor, and still benefit while using the Exalted melee weapon.
Personally, I don't see why Exalted weapons don't get to add to the set bonus since they've already fixed the issue of getting the set bonus twice off the same mod being used on melee and Deconstructor (allowing full bonus without needing the Warframe mods) and set mods not working on Exalted gear is the main reason I don't have the Hunter set Khora loadout I'd planned to have.

I would've been quite annoyed if a weapon I'm not even using cost me the Gladiator set on my Valkyr build's Hysteria.

I've submitted bug reports on the topic of exalted melees and gladiator. Previously your were right, gladiator on other gear effected exalteds. As of 27.5.4 though this is not the case. No matter how many gladiator mods you have now, on any piece of gear, exalted melees don't benefit from the set bonus.

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44 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used.

Isn't that a super clumsy way of addressing the issue? I hope this is merely a short term band-aid, and you will follow up with a rework of exalted abilities in general.

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3 minutes ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Well we are looking at it from different perspectives. That said I am confident that my assessment is accurate. 

I can see two possible outcomes here. First being they add other options down the road for infinite combo, or abilities are changed. Both of which may be happening as Megan's wording did not seem to imply that infinite combo is dead just postponed due to it being just one weapon currently that allowed it. 

They could make something that has infinite combo for X amount of time but my napkin math says this would just be the same problem as the Xoris. We will just have to wait and see.

Having plans is fine and dandy, it's the adding things people then end up using a lot for niche reasons and love the things for it, only for DE to just take them away because they didn't predict something that to anyone else would be glaringly obvious.

 

That leaves a sour taste in people's mouthes because they invested resources and time on it, time and resources that now get spat on. It's way worse than "This is fine" a while longer until they get their heads in the game again instead of whatever else it is.

 

It bothers me, because I've loved warframe, but it's going downhill fast, and not only because of content being lacking. Their decision-making isn't really re-assuring for the future either.

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Posted (edited)
vor 4 Minuten schrieb paulogabbi:

anything pablo says can be ignored, the guy is the MR0 of the De team anything "good" pablo want to nerf.

this is why people hate him and the first saryn rework

Congrats! You win the "dumbest post of the day" award!

happy new year yes GIF

Edited by (PS4)Deeceem
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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Geraion said:

Xoris allowed me to use blade storm more, it was fun, not overpowered.

Quick tip for bladestorm after this nerf - use redeemer with both combo chance mods and all duration mods. This way you can stack combo to 12x real fast and keep it for very long even out of combat (i think it's 32-35 sec total with all mods). 

Ash won't feel this nerf much, since he needs only 55% attack speed on his statstick, so you can use remaining 7 mod slots to support your combo. It's frames who don't have a luxury of free mod slots (because they need damage), as well as exalted melee frames, will suffer from this change the most.

13 minutes ago, DoveCannon said:

This right here. Exalted melees are in a very rough spot right now. They need some serious love.

IMO Desert Wind will be fine as is even after this change, but other exalted melees need buffs and need a lot of them, yeah.

 

7 minutes ago, Kylo. said:

Weird, you never mentioned the other frame I did mention.

Weird, you completely ignored my post and went straight for mag.

I don't play mag, so i can't say anything about her by myself, but judging by how many people i see using mesa compared to how many i see using mag, and how mag was almost a meme before shield gating became a thing, this comparison shouldn't be in mag's favor.

Edited by GREF_TM
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37 minutes ago, [DE]Megan said:

The solution: The change coming with The Steel Path Update is to have the affected Warframe Exalted Abilities / Exalted weapons reset the Melee Combo Counter ONLY if the Xoris is being used. What you’ll see now is the Critical Chance bonus applying to the first hit on abilities that are intended to scale with regular Melee Combo Multiplier, but then the Melee Combo is reset by the Ability, and does not apply to subsequent hits unless you build it up again with Xoris itself. Exalted Melee ultimates will reset the Xoris' Melee Combo Counter at the time of cast. As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. .

TLDR: Certain Warframe Abilities and Exalted weapons will reset the Melee Combo Counter only if the Xoris is being used.

 

Wait, so if I'm understanding correctly, if the Xoris is equipped,exalted abilities that would normally build melee combo from successful hits and subsequent benefit from it (although to a much lower degree than normal weapons) will now not be able to build any combo when the Xoris is equipped?

TDLR: if you use the Xoris: Exalted weapons won't be able to benefit from combo at all and exalted abilities will only benefit from the 1st cast and then can't build any combo themselves.

So the solution to making meta tier 'stick' was to add a special case rule, to make that single weapon worse as a stick that any other melee?

(Barring a specific slow build-nuke-repeat approach.)


Have I understood that, especially the EW case, correctly?

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