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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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8 minutes ago, Wawus said:

Ok. So I subsumed 3 frames now. And used couple abilities. And gotta say, so far I am well impressed.

Sitting on Helminth level 6 and slowly getting to understand the long game. This is finally a system that takes time and rewards for it.

Now, before anyone hates on me, not long ago I was still MR 23, now hit MR 26. 4000+ spent with 2000+ hours in missions (rest probably decorating Dojo, which is OPPOSITE of saving resources mind you). So not really sitting on mountains of resources.

That being said, I hit level 6 after 3 days. That's a bit too fast for my taste. I see why people wouldn't like amount of resources demanded to sacrifice, but it falls more under not understanding system itself. It is SUPPOSED to take time. If you rush - it will cost you. Effectiveness dropping from 30% to 3% is great, stops from burning through content and should stop people from burning through resources. Most of your resources are red? Then maybe it's time to STOP feeding and hop into couple missions. You know, play the game.

I know we have been hyped and starved for such a unique feature. But if you eat fast all you get is a painful stomach. Take note from Helminth (or Barry or Azroth, whatever you named it) and digest. Slowly.

 

Edit: Also, regarding MR 8. I think it's clever after all. It gives a taste of what it is without being overwhelming and straight out accessible. Barrier doesn't always have to come from MR. It comes purely from playing game.

Edit 2: I had to farm a fair bit myself to stock up on rare resources I avoided on feeding. So I get it. The need, the rush. But seeing how this system has been built - pick 2, 3 frames you want to subsume for start. And take it slow. It is more fun this way.

Edit 3: Funny enough Helminth alone might be a good reason enough to populate Steel Path with it's resource drop chance booster. Sounds like a good idea to extend it's purpose. I like it.

the problem is, its uneeded, for a mr8. most mr 8 players will see this as something they NEED TO GET as soon as possible. however the system is a massive resource sink. it will screw up their progression. mr is not perfect, but its the closest thing we have to mark how much experience a player has. even if someone stays 7 years as a mr1, he is not the majority, mr should have something big to serve as the carrot making people seek out higher mr.

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8 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

the problem is, its uneeded, for a mr8. most mr 8 players will see this as something they NEED TO GET as soon as possible. however the system is a massive resource sink. it will screw up their progression. mr is not perfect, but its the closest thing we have to mark how much experience a player has. even if someone stays 7 years as a mr1, he is not the majority, mr should have something big to serve as the carrot making people seek out higher mr.

I agree, that MR should have more meaning. But it doesn't. Even with Helminth there is no need to level up vanilla frames that have prime versions. This is a larger issue with gameplay focus. We want a game where "My Progress Matters" when DE is creating "Catch Them All". No need to force MR restrictions to create artificial need to progress.

I'd rather have something badass at MR 30 to have this carrot. Becuase I doubt we can be satisfied with anything else distribiuted every MR Rank Up. We got loadouts, standing and void traces caps up and let's face it, we don't care. Until players and DE decide to play the same game we won't find understanding and instead of meaningful leveling profile we'll keep playing space pokemon with weapons.

 

I will end discussion here to avoid cluttering feedback thread.

To reference it to Helminth, maybe we should be able to subsume only level 30 Warframes? This would fix neglecting frames that have prime counterparts. Just an idea.

Edited by Wawus
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I think a really clear issue is starting to present itself with the Helminth System, which is that the resource costs and the way you invest resources is worrying in the long-run. 

The resource costs for subsuming are far too high, especially keeping in mind the appetite system and the way resources are organized. A lot of the resources that players have stockpiles of are heavily weighted towards the first 2-3 categories, which makes the latter ones much more difficult to feed. (IMO feeding Helminth a Warframe shouldn't even cost resources but that's a personal pet peeve). Considering that there are 43 Warframes in the game now, a lot of players are going to run out of resources that have been stockpiled for years in a matter of weeks. I personally believe that there is a difference between experienced/longtime players and players who have the time to sit in a farming node with loot Warframes for upwards of two hours. I think that by shifting some of the more commonly stored resources to the other secretion categories, there could be a better balance between them, and would ensure that the appetite system isn't nearly as punishing. Beyond that most of the resource costs really should be dropped, as infusing/experimentation is more punishing then rewarding, which defers players from wanting to use the system to its fullest potential.

TL;DR time investment, in my opinion, currently doesn't equate to the outcome(s) that you can achieve with the system, which is ultimately kinda disappointing. 

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Im finding the costs way too high too. Based on the things I need to sacrifice, the nodes I enjoyed playing most (namely the higher level ones with high enemy spawns) during my years on warframe seem to have only dropped stuff for 1-2 of the categories. And the amount they do use is a whole lot. I'm using many hours worth of farming just to get each level. Im not sure if theres better ways but it feels designed to make you sink your entire resource hoarde in and more besides

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The costs seem to be too high for newer or more casual players, but it also varies wildly in terms of different types of resources and different categories for Helminth. Ie, all the Railjack resources are MASSIVELY overdemanded. And as many have mentioned, Bile specifically only has resources that come solely from very specific content that you most likely wouldn't get in large quantities if you aren't farming specifically for them, and since a large number of them are Railjack resources they are massively overpriced which cost hundreds or thousands of times more than they should to feed due to how separate Railjack is from the rest of the game. Overall, resources taken per Helminth helping should be more balanced around how often a player might get them (meaning drastically lowering Railjack resource demands), how much they get them each drop (Rubedo and Plastids are notably less plentiful than their demands), and new/casual player accessibility (this I believe is the most important thing, especially in light of actually tweaking and experimenting with ability swapping).

The appetite system is also not very good IMO, it only makes categories like Bile even worse to feed.

My rule of thumb would be something like that subsuming a warframe and infusing abilities should be proportional in resource cost to the cost of building those warframes (again, thinking of new/casual player experience). Subsume should be comparable in resource cost to something between twice to at most ten times that of building a warframe on average (obviously this can be more spread out in resources demanded and not related to what it costs to build that specific warframe), and infusing should cost less so experimentation with abilitiy loadouts has a low bar of entry (especially important because can't swap around infusions willy-nilly but have to commit to a loadout slot).

 

However, I'd say the primary function of the system, replacing abilities, is great and allows for interesting new builds and gives more utility to frames. Only issue I think there is really just that there's no tanking power that could really elevate Nidus for example (Null Star self-sabotages itself utterly, Elemental Ward and Warcry only get you so far, and Eclipse is too unreliable for serious tanking). And the overall problem with abilities themselves which isn't really Helminth's fault, with self-buffs to damage output being king.

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Too expensive. Railjack resources are very inbalanced and rare resources which you only get in the quantity of 1 or 2 like morphics, gallium, argon, orokin cell should not cost that high. Time needed to gather the resources should be the guideline to determine the feeding cost. The expensive cost only discourage people to experimenting with various abilities and builds and encourage people to be efficient and just go straight for meta abilities. Why bother spending so much resources subsuming Loki, Revenant, Zephyr while you can just subsume Rhino and use those resources to infuse it to like 20 different warframes.

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4 hours ago, thurmack said:

I'm not sure I qualify as a veteran, with maybe 1.5yrs in the game, but I am not having any trouble at all with the resources. I've got five warframes subsumed so far, none of my resources are low, and that's even with me burning an obscene amount the first day (before I figured out the up/down arrow thing).

Of course my experience won't be universal - everyone plays the game differently - but I think my experience is a noteworthy counterpoint to the narrative that the resource consumption is out of reach for the average player.

That said, 60 Son tokens to gild all the new pets might kill me. 😛

Asterite, Trachons, Bracoids, Nullstones, Cryotic, etc. These resources are ridiculous even for myself. I've done so much railjack and only have enough for 1 feeding with asterite, trachons, and bracoids. These are only the ones that come to mind. 

Edited by (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1
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I was planning on going hardmode on Helminth with subsuming all frames then experimenting with different combos... to you know, have some variety in gameplay...

I expected some heavy costs, but not like this. My current plan is to stop at 3 or 4 subsumed frames, apply it to a couple favorites then turn off Warframe and play another game.

 

So yeah, I'd say the costs are too much.

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Can you guys add a natural decay to the helminth that stops after reaching max rank?

I'm lvl 4 currently, and outside of feeding frames, and the occasional infusion, my helminth is always satisfied and full.

It seems weird logging in after half a day and my helminth still sits at 100% everywhere..

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18 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Can you guys add a natural decay to the helminth that stops after reaching max rank?

I'm lvl 4 currently, and outside of feeding frames, and the occasional infusion, my helminth is always satisfied and full.

It seems weird logging in after half a day and my helminth still sits at 100% everywhere..

If you need to sink resources to level Helminth faster just infuse some ability and then remove it, then infuse again and remove again. Your suggestion is otherwise very hurtful, you are suggesting making all resources fed to Helminth be like argon. Did you really think your suggestion through? Those resources are consumed to be able to USE the helminth for infuse/subsume. 

Please more thinking, less tryharding next time. 

My god, like the ranking system weren't a pain as it is now.  

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30 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

What you're suggesting is called an exploit. And talking about it got my posts removed, so.. 

Again, this system is aimed at veterans. I drown in almost all resources. People like you, new players, shouldn't even have access to it in the first place.

So you Stop tryharding on a system you shouldn't even be able to access. Thanks.

Aimed at veterans-not the .0001% such as yourself who want an already ridiculously expensive system to be more punishing just so you can level faster. Wouldn't that too be an exploit? No, because it would be a feature just as infusing us money. 

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1:

You sound ridiculous. Doing what is intended isn't an exploit. Don't invalidate Klauss' logically valid response just because you're "more experienced"

Natural decay would be extremely detrimental especially with the crazy costs right now. Subsuming gives a large amount of XP just like infusing does. 

WHAT CRAZY COSTS?

There is no such thing currently except some railjack resources.

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5 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Yep, spamming infuse and remove is definitely intentional. Especially the xp reward Everytime.

Definitely

....It is... you're using resources to do it, are you not? With your idea of letting resources decay, you'd also be using resources to level. The XP reward for feeding (infinitely by your logic) must be intentional-definitely Lol. The hypocrisy is glaring here. 

Edited by (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1
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Costs are too high. And I have a question - do we really need resource sink as a concept? Why? Almost each new major update comes with its own resources to farm anyway, so it's not like having 3mil nanospores allows us to evade farming completely. And I doubt DE will stop adding new resources any time soon, so what's the point in trying to burn our supplies?

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10 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if costs are too high how have people got to lvl6-10 helminth already? 

Resource boosters and 'cheating'. You can give subsumed ability to warframe, immediately take it out, and then feed your helminth for quick level up, but it costs resources. These people, like many others, has over thousands of sentient cores they'll never use again due to already gotten whatever Onkko has, and rushes to get Sentient Appetite so they can powerlevel to 10.

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9 minutes ago, (NSW)RATHURUE said:

Resource boosters and 'cheating'. You can give subsumed ability to warframe, immediately take it out, and then feed your helminth for quick level up, but it costs resources. These people, like many others, has over thousands of sentient cores they'll never use again due to already gotten whatever Onkko has, and rushes to get Sentient Appetite so they can powerlevel to 10.

you need to play more and accumulate more resources to benefit from the helminth system, it sounds like you're a little green

eventually you will be awesome like these guys and be able to powerlevel too

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SzteLer.jpg

I want to put Dispensary on Config A, by replacing 1st ability
And in Config B, i want to replace 2nd ability.

The only option atm when selecting Dispensary is to remove it.

Can we have the flexibility to choose any ability to replace across multiple config?

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23 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

you need to play more and accumulate more resources to benefit from the helminth system, it sounds like you're a little green

eventually you will be awesome like these guys and be able to powerlevel too

Sure, my MR 22 3000+hours account I've transmigrated from PC with 4th evolution Helminth is 'little green'.

Edited by (NSW)RATHURUE
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