Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[ClockworkDragon5]

I think a really clear issue is starting to present itself with the Helminth System, which is that the resource costs and the way you invest resources is worrying in the long-run. 

The resource costs for subsuming are far too high, especially keeping in mind the appetite system and the way resources are organized. A lot of the resources that players have stockpiles of are heavily weighted towards the first 2-3 categories, which makes the latter ones much more difficult to feed. (IMO feeding Helminth a Warframe shouldn't even cost resources but that's a personal pet peeve). Considering that there are 43 Warframes in the game now, a lot of players are going to run out of resources that have been stockpiled for years in a matter of weeks. I personally believe that there is a difference between experienced/longtime players and players who have the time to sit in a farming node with loot Warframes for upwards of two hours. I think that by shifting some of the more commonly stored resources to the other secretion categories, there could be a better balance between them, and would ensure that the appetite system isn't nearly as punishing. Beyond that most of the resource costs really should be dropped, as infusing/experimentation is more punishing then rewarding, which defers players from wanting to use the system to its fullest potential.

TL;DR time investment, in my opinion, currently doesn't equate to the outcome(s) that you can achieve with the system, which is ultimately kinda disappointing. 

[Proscriptor]

how do you know what the outcomes are when you haven't experienced the infused abilities?

[bubbabenali]

I guess it's not intended to use Shield Rebuild (replacing balefire charger) with Hyldrin while using her ulti?

Well I will enjoy it while it lasts.

[LuckyCharm]

Im finding the costs way too high too. Based on the things I need to sacrifice, the nodes I enjoyed playing most (namely the higher level ones with high enemy spawns) during my years on warframe seem to have only dropped stuff for 1-2 of the categories. And the amount they do use is a whole lot. I'm using many hours worth of farming just to get each level. Im not sure if theres better ways but it feels designed to make you sink your entire resource hoarde in and more besides

[vaarnaaarne]

The costs seem to be too high for newer or more casual players, but it also varies wildly in terms of different types of resources and different categories for Helminth. Ie, all the Railjack resources are MASSIVELY overdemanded. And as many have mentioned, Bile specifically only has resources that come solely from very specific content that you most likely wouldn't get in large quantities if you aren't farming specifically for them, and since a large number of them are Railjack resources they are massively overpriced which cost hundreds or thousands of times more than they should to feed due to how separate Railjack is from the rest of the game. Overall, resources taken per Helminth helping should be more balanced around how often a player might get them (meaning drastically lowering Railjack resource demands), how much they get them each drop (Rubedo and Plastids are notably less plentiful than their demands), and new/casual player accessibility (this I believe is the most important thing, especially in light of actually tweaking and experimenting with ability swapping).

The appetite system is also not very good IMO, it only makes categories like Bile even worse to feed.

My rule of thumb would be something like that subsuming a warframe and infusing abilities should be proportional in resource cost to the cost of building those warframes (again, thinking of new/casual player experience). Subsume should be comparable in resource cost to something between twice to at most ten times that of building a warframe on average (obviously this can be more spread out in resources demanded and not related to what it costs to build that specific warframe), and infusing should cost less so experimentation with abilitiy loadouts has a low bar of entry (especially important because can't swap around infusions willy-nilly but have to commit to a loadout slot).

 

However, I'd say the primary function of the system, replacing abilities, is great and allows for interesting new builds and gives more utility to frames. Only issue I think there is really just that there's no tanking power that could really elevate Nidus for example (Null Star self-sabotages itself utterly, Elemental Ward and Warcry only get you so far, and Eclipse is too unreliable for serious tanking). And the overall problem with abilities themselves which isn't really Helminth's fault, with self-buffs to damage output being king.

[Amadurim]

Too expensive. Railjack resources are very inbalanced and rare resources which you only get in the quantity of 1 or 2 like morphics, gallium, argon, orokin cell should not cost that high. Time needed to gather the resources should be the guideline to determine the feeding cost. The expensive cost only discourage people to experimenting with various abilities and builds and encourage people to be efficient and just go straight for meta abilities. Why bother spending so much resources subsuming Loki, Revenant, Zephyr while you can just subsume Rhino and use those resources to infuse it to like 20 different warframes.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

4 hours ago, thurmack said:

I'm not sure I qualify as a veteran, with maybe 1.5yrs in the game, but I am not having any trouble at all with the resources. I've got five warframes subsumed so far, none of my resources are low, and that's even with me burning an obscene amount the first day (before I figured out the up/down arrow thing).

Of course my experience won't be universal - everyone plays the game differently - but I think my experience is a noteworthy counterpoint to the narrative that the resource consumption is out of reach for the average player.

That said, 60 Son tokens to gild all the new pets might kill me. 😛

Asterite, Trachons, Bracoids, Nullstones, Cryotic, etc. These resources are ridiculous even for myself. I've done so much railjack and only have enough for 1 feeding with asterite, trachons, and bracoids. These are only the ones that come to mind. 

[SweetAnubis]

Ya the railjack resource cost is rather skewed. they are way to high. but only the railjack resources have this issue. the rest are in a good spot.

[zoffmode]

I was planning on going hardmode on Helminth with subsuming all frames then experimenting with different combos... to you know, have some variety in gameplay...

I expected some heavy costs, but not like this. My current plan is to stop at 3 or 4 subsumed frames, apply it to a couple favorites then turn off Warframe and play another game.

 

So yeah, I'd say the costs are too much.

[KlaussKlauss]

18 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Can you guys add a natural decay to the helminth that stops after reaching max rank?

I'm lvl 4 currently, and outside of feeding frames, and the occasional infusion, my helminth is always satisfied and full.

It seems weird logging in after half a day and my helminth still sits at 100% everywhere..

If you need to sink resources to level Helminth faster just infuse some ability and then remove it, then infuse again and remove again. Your suggestion is otherwise very hurtful, you are suggesting making all resources fed to Helminth be like argon. Did you really think your suggestion through? Those resources are consumed to be able to USE the helminth for infuse/subsume. 

Please more thinking, less tryharding next time. 

My god, like the ranking system weren't a pain as it is now.  

[Ursoon]

Small suggestion - can we have a different sound effect for Warcry on male frames? i guess that would make more sense

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

30 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

What you're suggesting is called an exploit. And talking about it got my posts removed, so.. 

Again, this system is aimed at veterans. I drown in almost all resources. People like you, new players, shouldn't even have access to it in the first place.

So you Stop tryharding on a system you shouldn't even be able to access. Thanks.

Aimed at veterans-not the .0001% such as yourself who want an already ridiculously expensive system to be more punishing just so you can level faster. Wouldn't that too be an exploit? No, because it would be a feature just as infusing us money. 

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

5 minutes ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

Yep, spamming infuse and remove is definitely intentional. Especially the xp reward Everytime.

Definitely

....It is... you're using resources to do it, are you not? With your idea of letting resources decay, you'd also be using resources to level. The XP reward for feeding (infinitely by your logic) must be intentional-definitely Lol. The hypocrisy is glaring here. 

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

1 minute ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

WHAT CRAZY COSTS?

There is no such thing currently except some railjack resources.

Yup. You nailed it on the head. Railjack resources 

[Serafim_94]

Costs are too high. And I have a question - do we really need resource sink as a concept? Why? Almost each new major update comes with its own resources to farm anyway, so it's not like having 3mil nanospores allows us to evade farming completely. And I doubt DE will stop adding new resources any time soon, so what's the point in trying to burn our supplies?

[Proscriptor]

if costs are too high how have people got to lvl6-10 helminth already? 

[RiceHat_]

Cost are too high, example is the bile, eats a lot of resources.

[(NSW)RATHURUE]

10 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if costs are too high how have people got to lvl6-10 helminth already? 

Resource boosters and 'cheating'. You can give subsumed ability to warframe, immediately take it out, and then feed your helminth for quick level up, but it costs resources. These people, like many others, has over thousands of sentient cores they'll never use again due to already gotten whatever Onkko has, and rushes to get Sentient Appetite so they can powerlevel to 10.

[Proscriptor]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)RATHURUE said:

Resource boosters and 'cheating'. You can give subsumed ability to warframe, immediately take it out, and then feed your helminth for quick level up, but it costs resources. These people, like many others, has over thousands of sentient cores they'll never use again due to already gotten whatever Onkko has, and rushes to get Sentient Appetite so they can powerlevel to 10.

you need to play more and accumulate more resources to benefit from the helminth system, it sounds like you're a little green

eventually you will be awesome like these guys and be able to powerlevel too

[pascaLLL_]

I want to put Dispensary on Config A, by replacing 1st ability
And in Config B, i want to replace 2nd ability.

The only option atm when selecting Dispensary is to remove it.

Can we have the flexibility to choose any ability to replace across multiple config?

[(NSW)RATHURUE]

23 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

you need to play more and accumulate more resources to benefit from the helminth system, it sounds like you're a little green

eventually you will be awesome like these guys and be able to powerlevel too

Sure, my MR 22 3000+hours account I've transmigrated from PC with 4th evolution Helminth is 'little green'.

[Proscriptor]

why don't you have thousands of sentient materials then as well? like the awesome powerleveling guys?

[selig_fay]

The reiljeck cost resources are too large. Please give us more reiljeck content! xD

[Zzz-Somnus-zzZ]

I assume that replies here will count as normal topics to be looked at then.

Since certain buffing abilities have been nerfed to prevent abuse when used on other frames after subsuming (Rhino's roar, Valkyr's warcry), I would like to ask for a corresponding reduction in energy used (or at least drop it by 25 energy -> from 75 to 50 energy needed)

 

After trying out the allocation of abilities to config slots, can you allow me to move the loadouts around? Say if Quiver is currently infused on loadout A, can I move it to loadout B instead (without extra resources used)

[CalamityUK]

I went through and evaluated the costs per feed for every item in the Helminth system - and yes the RJ resources really are the glaring problem which is compounded in the Bile category by a combination of a lack of variety and absurd costs for the non-RJ resources. I also found there seems to be random inconsistencies, as there are resources which are very similar in abundance which have dramatically different costs.

You see, the problem is at the moment, the amount of RJ resources that you actually need to feed Helminth just one single time does not encourage me to play Railjack, because there is no chance in hell I'm going to even attempt that level of grind, when getting other resources doesn't require anywhere near of a time investment. If those costs were brought down to a more reasonable level, I would actually play Railjack to get them. I am sure that I am not the only one that feels this way. That is your intention with adding all of the RJ resources into this system, right? To get people to play it more.

To address the lack of variety in certain categories, fish parts and raw ores and gems need to be added to this system ASAP. There was no reason for them to be excluded in the first place. Full breakdown below on current costs below:

Oxides (this category is in desperate need of more variety):
Alloy Plate: 15,000 - This is fine.
Carbides: 10,000 - Uhhh, no. 2000 - 3000 would be way more reasonable to ask per feed.
Ferrite: 20,000 - This is fine.
Gallium: 25 - This seems a bit high especially some other similar in abundance resources are cheaper. Reduce to 15.
Oxium: 750 - It's bad enough you keep making stuff with Auroxium Alloys in their blueprints. Reduce to 400 - even that is still too high but at least a bit more reasonable than 750.
Salvage: 20,000 - This is more than fine.
Tellurium: 10 - Eh, it's fine, I guess.
Titanium: 20,000 - This is sheer insanity. Drop to 2000 - 3000.

Calx (this category is in desperate need of more variety):
Asterite: 5000 - Another one that is sheer insanity. Drop to 500.
Cubic Diodes: 12,500 - Why is this more than Carbides per feed in the first place? Drop to 2000 - 3000.
Gallos Rods: 300 - Like all other RJ resources, this is far, far too much. Drop to 50.
Hexenon: 300 - I think this could do with a slight nerf. Drop to 200 - 250.
Iradite: 50 - Did you get this and Grokdrul the wrong way around? Drop to 25 - 30.
Grokdrul: 30 - Absolutely fine.
Lucent Teraglobe: 50 - Absolutely fine.
Nullstones: 225 - Hahaha you must be joking?! Drop to 25.
Rubedo: 6000 - Ok so I don't understand why this is so much cheaper than Alloy Plates per feed but it's fine.

Biotics:
Dusklight Saracena: 8 - Overall some of the biotics costs per feed seem a tiny bit too much but there's so much variety that it doesn't matter. So this is fine, I guess.
Frostleaf: 8 - These are pretty easy to scan, so this is fine.
Gorgaricus Spore: 25 - Yeah, I think that's fair.
Lunar Pitcher: 8 - See what I said about Dusklight.
Maprico: 50 - Fine, I guess.
Moonlight Dragonlily: 8 - See what I said about Dusklight.
Moonlight Jadeleaf: 8 - Same as above.
Moonlight Threshcone: 8 - I mean these are way more abundant than the previous two. Why not reduce the previous down to 6 or something?
Mytocardia Spore: 8 - I am surprised this is so much lower than Gorgaricus. But it's fine.
Nistlepod: 25 - More than OK.
Pustulite: 25 - More than OK.
Ruk's Claw: 8 - It's fine.
Sunlight Dragonlily: 8
Sunlight Jadeleaf: 8
Sunlight Threshcone: 8 - Similar to Moonlight ones.
Tepa Nodules: 50 - Maybe could be dropped to 30? It's not awful though.
Vestan Moss: 8 - This is fine.

Synthetics:
Aucrux Capacitors: 25 - Another RJ, another absurd requirement. Please nerf to 10.
Circuits: 7000 - Fine, obviously.
Control Module: 75 - This is fine.
Detonite Ampule: 125 - Also fine.
Fieldron Sample: 125 - Also fine, and makes sense to be same as Detonite Ampules.
Kesslers: 300 - Nope. No way. 100 would be far more appropiate.
Komms: 25 - Same as Aucrux Capacitors, should be 10.
Neural Sensors: 25 - I don't understand why this isn't 15 like Neurodes.
Orokin Cells: 15 - It's just slightly painful. Wouldn't mind seeing this be 10, but not fussed if doesn't change.
Polymer Bundle: 12,500 - I'd be fine with this if it wasn't more than twice the amount as Rubedo. If anything these costs should be swapped? It's not horrendous but would like to see this reduced to at most 10,000.

Pheromones:
Bracoid: 1000 - Perhaps the most insane requirement on here, the description of this item even says that it is a rare resource! This needs to be brought down all the way to about 10 - 20.
Chitinous Husk: 3 - This is made reasonable by Juggernauts spawning pretty frequently on Cambion Drift. It's fine.
Infected Palpators: 3 - See above.
Mutagen Sample: 125 - Look, I get that these are supposed to be the equivalent of Detonite Ampules and Fieldron Samples, but in practice there are so many fewer ways to get this resource as opposed to the both of them. Perhaps you could consider 50 - 75?
Nano Spore: 20,000 - Without a doubt the most reasonable cost on here, honestly I wouldn't mind if you increased it as a tradeoff for nerfing the ones that are too high.
Neurodes: 15 - It's fine, but makes me baffled about the Gallium and Neural Sensor costs.
Plastids: 4000 - How is it ok to ask for 12,500 Polymer Bundles but only 4000 Plastids? This is another one where it's fine but makes me baffled about costs for other resources.
Pulsating Tubercles: 3 - As with previous similar resources, it's fine.
Pustrels: 15,000 - Another no way to a RJ resource. Reduce to 2000 - 3000.
Severed Bile Sac: 3 - Juggernaut resource. You know the drill by now.
Trachons: 10,000 - Competing with Bracoid for the most ridiculous requirement per feed. It really should be more like 300.

Bile (this category is in REALLY desperate need of more variety):
Argon Crystals: 3 - Hard one to judge due to the nature of Argon Crystals. However, I can see what you're going for here, and I think this is fine - it's not that hard to get 3 Argon Crystals really.
Copernics: 15,000 - I don't even need to say it any more. Reduce to 2000 - 3000.
Cryotic: 3000 - The kindest thing I can say about this is that someone added a zero to what they actually intended. I really think 500 would be the sweetspot here.
Diluted Thermia: 5 - I hate this with a passion. This is a resource that is only used for one very specific thing, and is only obtainable from a timed event. If it's going to be in at all, it should be 1 per feed.
Fresnels: 1000 - Bracoids all over again. Needs to be brought down to 10 - 20.
Isos: 400 - This is the only RJ resource that is close to being ok, but it still needs to be toned down. Maybe 100 - 150?
Morphics: 40 - This is the one that should actually be 25. But I can live with it, I suppose.
Somatic Fibers: 10 - These only have a 15% to drop from Demolishers on ONE mission node in the whole game, and are only used for ONE specific recipe. It should be 1 per feed, 2 maximum.
Thermal Sludge: 50 - This is an outlier in this category for actually being reasonable.

I, for one, am very disappointed with the response you tweeted yesterday saying that you were not planning to look at Helminth resource costs, as I seriously think you should be looking at it as one of the primary balance issues Heart of Deimos currently has (after all the fixes to the Syndicate economy which were very welcome), along with giving Xaku the love they desperately need.

Tl;dr if you are not going to rebalance the costs at all, then at the very least, make it so that once an ability has been subsumed onto a warframe, you do not have to pay the subsume cost again if you remove it and re-add it later to the same frame. This would then at least allow for the flexibility to experiment with builds - because this is going to cause massive headaches further down the line once players have been able to subsume more and more warframes. EDIT: Of course, you would have to remove the ability to get XP for the ability being re-added, but I do think that'd be a fair trade-off.