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Update 30.5: Sisters of Parvos & Kuva Liches Feedback Megathread (Read First Post!)


[DE]CoreyOnline
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I feel Liches/Sisters need a better flow To fight or higher spawn rate. I had my lich combo and spent 2 hours trying to get it to spawn and randoms would join and literally 5 to 10 seconds after loading in their lich would Spawn.


Then I have to do a railjack mission to finish them off now. That irks me because I spent a good 5 minutes just laying into it with a mech. I understand you put it so it wasn’t a few second fight but I feel it should be after making me hunt them down, get the combo right, then another drawn out match.  I feel the resistance they have on that final fight should be what they have during the murmur farm and when you weakened them they can be wiped out like they use to be goes with the whole “weakened”.

Also why are thralls spawning on the showdown node for liches? Like to get get there I have to have the combo already understand if somebody is helping just seems odd, could just give anybody with an active lich gets 10 mercy kills after the lich is vanquished.

 

Holokeys, make them guaranteed drop like arbitration every set amount you get x with a Chance of a reward giving more like they are now.

 

also when are pets getting a weapon slot to mod? They only have 8(?) slots to mod for abilities, health/shield/armor, then damage and elements which restricts their build to only hold a certain way. Adding a weapon slot or something like talons for them to be modded with the crit chance and elements would help them out. 

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The most ridiculous thing is reflection or rad procs making pubs a wipefest. Wonder what instakilled you? check the logs

qXQSrAV.png

🤣

tank build Inaros dumpstered, better bring truly unkillable frames

Edited by Monolake
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regarding Tenet Diplos:

The lock-on mechanic feels disappointing. It's not effective enough to clear most mobs on one tap, making multiple swipes necessary, which feels bad because there's a significant lock-on swipe mechanic cooldown time.

It would be a lot more fun if the lock-on allowed full auto firing.

 

regarding Tenet Envoy:

based and pogged, my new favourite weapon

Edited by Gwyndolin-chan
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I personally think that the grind for the tenet melee weapons is too much. 37.5% chance to get the holokeys, and to get the best out of it, you have to burn axi relics in veil. Even without getting relics this is a too slow process to get a single weapon. While I didn't do it in one sitting, it still took me probably around 5-6 hours to get one of them, which is a lot, even compared to killing a single lich for other tenet (or kuva) weapons.
(Now imagine how long it takes getting axi relics included, though you can play fissures without them, but that's how they are worth playing more)
I think making it a 100% drop but like halfing the amount you get would feel like a more healthy design than bad luck constantly griefing players. Or/and maybe make them obtainable through more means, but I'd still prefer the previous idea of getting them through the same way, just with RNG not souring the mood of progress. 
I got one of the four weapons so far, and I already feel like I kinda had enough of doing void storm missions. Three weapons left, or arguably more, considering if you maybe want to use valence fusion.
If this stays the way it is, it's definitely going to make players feel burnt out, especially knowing warframe community, many people would most likely want to obtain all of them for the sake of completion. 

Edit: also, no Tenet Lenz? :( Bramma does more damage with no explosion delay. It would have been nice to have an alternative that feels different and has different strengths/weaknesses.

Edited by Harutomata
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Just did a granum void in phobos(capture mission) with sayrn. 

The candidate didn't spawn.

I don't have an active lich.

 

edit

So did another granum void in another capture mission neptune and I wasn't able to create a candidate. with saryn

I'm guessing this is a persisting bug.

Edited by White_Matter
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3 hours ago, Monolake said:

The most ridiculous thing is reflection or rad procs making pubs a wipefest. Wonder what instakilled you? check the logs

qXQSrAV.png

🤣

tank build Inaros dumpstered, better bring truly unkillable frames

I wiped a whole random team out with Baruuk fists.. Then died myself... I didn't even realize the guy had a radiation Sister of Parvos.  I wish they showed the element of the lich/sister on the top health bar somewhere.  This has been happening since the first Kuva liches.  Even more so, hard to stare at the corner to see what negative debuffs you have on intense fighting.  That's really the issue.

Edited by (PSN)Poestis
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Playing the waiting game of waiting for your nemesis to spawn to try out the code is still a tedious process. It would be great if Requiem Ultimatums to be more common. Maybe let Palladino sell Requiem Ultimatums once a week?

It would also be great if those things are tradeable too.

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about tenet diplos :
i really like tenet diplos, but the lock-on fire mode is a bit annoying, maybe it need to be change to a alt fire or when lock an enemy, if you want to shot projectiles press the midle mouse button / full auto mode by pressing left mouse button ( when you shot the full auto, all the lock will dissapear. )

me personally love to aim it first before i shot the enemy, so i can aim a headshot.

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21 minutes ago, (PSN)Poestis said:

I wiped a whole random team out with Baruuk fists.. Then died myself... I didn't even realize the guy had a radiation Sister of Parvos.  I wish they showed the element of the lich/sister on the top health bar somewhere.  This has been happening since the first Kuva liches.  Even more so, hard to stare at the corner to see what negative debuffs you have on intense fighting.  That's really the issue.

The Sisters don't have to be radiation-typed to proc you with their weapons. If they have Tenet Detron (10% status per projectile out of 10, ~65% chance cumulatively) or Plasmor (34% status chance), you're gonna eat some rads no matter what their elemental affinity is.

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13 minutes ago, TheLexiConArtist said:

The Sisters don't have to be radiation-typed to proc you with their weapons. If they have Tenet Detron (10% status per projectile out of 10, ~65% chance cumulatively) or Plasmor (34% status chance), you're gonna eat some rads no matter what their elemental affinity is.

That or they cast the rad grass ability (you forgot they cast abilities?) that I barely saw.  Either way the whole team died and we all knew we killed eachother so it was definitely an AoE.

Edited by (PSN)Poestis
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Regarding Parazon, I'm not sure if I like the changes. Most of the time enemies die faster than it is worth it to mercy kill them. Regardless, for the love of everything, please make it so mercy is prioritized over reloading. Every time I attempt it my character reloads weapon instead and it is extremely frustrating and makes me want to use mercy even less.

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While I appreciate the fact that the whole murmur process has sped up, it's a bit easier getting into random groups for lich/sisters, and the final fight has moved to Rail Jack as was first shown off, the Damage Resistance they have now make the fight one of the least enjoyable aspects of the whole system. It reminds me of the first Nightwave when my friend and I were invaded by the Wolf while running Derelict Vaults with all 4 keys on each of us. It wasn't fun or challenging. Just frustrating. Except that fight with the Wolf was mostly opt in. If we had wanted to, we could have just left. But with the changes to Liches/Sisters, you can't really just leave it if you want the rewards. Hope this gets adjusted to more enjoyable levels sooner rather than later. Doesn't have to go back to pre-update levels, but it does need adjustment.

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2 hours ago, White_Matter said:

Just did a granum void in phobos(capture mission) with sayrn. 

The candidate didn't spawn.

I don't have an active lich.

 

edit

So did another granum void in another capture mission neptune and I wasn't able to create a candidate. with saryn

I'm guessing this is a persisting bug.

I think I've seen or read that you don't want to do the Void part too close to the extraction point. Not sure if that is your issue, but might help if it is.

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I did about 30 zenith crown and over and over i kept getting the same weapon the same gun over and over where is the rng in this ??? Also im not sure if is a bug sometimes the sister dosent spawn even if i wait 10 min or more 

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45 minutes ago, Sotales said:

While I appreciate the fact that the whole murmur process has sped up, it's a bit easier getting into random groups for lich/sisters, and the final fight has moved to Rail Jack as was first shown off, the Damage Resistance they have now make the fight one of the least enjoyable aspects of the whole system. It reminds me of the first Nightwave when my friend and I were invaded by the Wolf while running Derelict Vaults with all 4 keys on each of us. It wasn't fun or challenging. Just frustrating. Except that fight with the Wolf was mostly opt in. If we had wanted to, we could have just left. But with the changes to Liches/Sisters, you can't really just leave it if you want the rewards. Hope this gets adjusted to more enjoyable levels sooner rather than later. Doesn't have to go back to pre-update levels, but it does need adjustment.

...then you'll get lich with Nezha Halo on top - immune to everything and there is no way to dispell it (at least I cant find any), Silence doesnt work, doesnt stop them from using abilities like it did for Necramechs

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Feels like hunting out specific weapons are a chore for the sisters. Been having the issue where ill run the mission, the golden hands off in a side room somewhere so ill reach the end, backtrack and hunt for it, do it but the candidate wont spawn because it seems to have a delayed timer or is tied to enemy spawns. Please just make it spawn the candidate as soon as the hand is done, and maybe try program the hand room to spawn in the missions main paths so we dont have to hunt for it like a kuva siphon

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9 hours ago, [DE]Momaw said:

It was made incompatible on purpose. Our napkin math indicated that between the better crit stats and innate elemental bonus, the Kuva Hek without the augment is stronger than the basic Hek is with the augment. We might be willing to reconsider in the future if suitably scientific appeals are made, but for now you may consider this "as intended".

(Quote from Bug Report thread)

Hey Momaw / DE, I did some upgraded math for you, and here's a suggestion:

Quote

"Why does scattered justice need to exist if it is only for the base Hek?"

 

THIS is the question (quote from the reddit thread discussing this decision). When the Vaykor was the only variant it wasn't as egregious.
Let's compare the 3 Heks (not to be confused with the 9 Hells):
  • Base Damage: Hek 7x75, VHek 7x75, KHek 7x87
  • Rate of Fire: Hek 2.17, VHek 3, KHek 2.17
  • Magazine Size: Hek 4, VHek 8, KHek 4
  • Reload: Hek 2s, Vhek 2.25s, KHek 2s
  • Status%: Hek 10.7%, Vhek 10.7%, KHek 13%
  • Crit %: Hek 10%, VHek 25%, KHek 23%
  • CritDmg: Hek 2x, VHek 2x, KHek 2.1x
  • Falloff: Hek 100%@10m-20%@20m, VHek 100%@10m-27%@20m, KHek 100%@15m-20%@30m
All 3 have equivalent Accuracy and Max Ammo, %IPS (65% is puncture).Kuva Hek has alt-fire option.
 
Base vs Vaykor:
 
So with all this, we see that Vaykor Hek's advantage is larger clip and rate of fire, and better falloff, at the cost of losing the mod. This is generally a Good Trade, because you can theoretically attack 38% faster, and reloads go from 60% of your time down to 40%. Or rather, in 60 seconds (without reload or RoF mods), a base Hek can output 16 magazines, or 64 shots. In the same time, a Vaykor Hek will churn out 12.5 magazines, or 100 shots.
If you switch Hell's Chamber out for Scattered Justice, you go from 120% to 200% multishot, which is a 36% damage increase. But the Vaykor has over a 50% increase in damage by virtue of more shots.
 
These numbers shift towards the Hek if you're using a reload speed mod, and further in favor of the Vaykor if you use any rate of fire mods. Comparing Hell's Chamber to Hell's Chamber AND Scattered Justice is harder, since it requires full builds to theory-craft around.
However, Hek has an added disadvantage - that 10% critical chance. Which basically means you can NOT build it for crit, while you can do so to the Vaykor Hek (especially with the recent buff to shotgun crit).
 
Base vs Kuva:
 
Kuva Hek doesn't have the 8 clip and RoF boost of the Vaykor, which is a pretty big deal. This means that instead of an extra 56% damage from just kicking out more ammo, it ONLY has the 16% increased base damage plus elemental Kuva effect (25-60%).
It also is 2% lower crit than the Vaykor (though the 10% higher crit multiplier overall makes it the superior crit shotgun in the trio, but barely).
 
So a 25% Kuva Hek is going to be doing ~45% more damage than the Hek (which gets 36% more damage from Scattered Justice). Not even 10% higher damage for a Kuva weapon compared to it's MR4 version. Of course, by the time you max out your Kuva Hek (60% elemental damage), it's going to be up to 85% higher damage (exceeding the Vaykor's 56% from RoF). However, that's common to all Kuva weapons.
 
Overall:
 
Hek does 150 UoD (units of damage), Vaykor Hek does 195 UoD, and Kuva Hek does 182 to 232 UoD. This all is accounting for the lack of Scattered Justice.
 
Conclusion:
 
While this math supports DE's napkin, it overlooks the critical non-math stuff. There shouldn't be a mod that works just with the base version.
So how do you fix that? SIMPLE! You power down the variants, or power up the base. It's literally that easy.
  • Raise Hek's crit% to 18%. This shrinks the crit gap, and makes Hek at least viable (if not ideal) with critical options, and represents a measly 7% dps increase for the weapon.
  • Drop Vaykor Hek's base damage to 7x62, and Kuva Hek's base to 7x75 (Kuva loses its 16% advantage, and Vaykor is now 17% worse damage/shot)
  • Raise Vaykor Hek's reload time to 2.6 seconds (result is 12 magazines per minute instead of 12.5, or 96 rounds per minute, or only 50% damage over Hek, down from 56%)
  • Decrease Scattered Justice from 200% to 180% (1.5 times as good of a mod as Hell's Chamber, and still 27% damage increase by making the swap)
 
With these changes, the overall comparison turns into Hek doing 150 UoD, Vaykor Hek doing 196 UoD, and Kuva Hek doing 199 UoD to 254 UoD (with all 3 able to using Scattered Justice).
 
If you normalize those numbers, the before and after are:
  • Before: Hek 100, Vaykor 130, Kuva 121-155 (Scattered Justice only on base)
  • After: Hek 100, Vaykor 131, Kuva 133-169 (SJ on all 3)
 
All combined, this represents a 7% increase in damage with Hek without Scattered Justice, and a break-even with Scattered Justice. Meanwhile, the Vaykor Hek gets worse with current builds, but breaks even if you replace Hell's Chamber with Scattered Justice. And the Kuva Hek sees a ~10% increase in damage with Scattered Justice, and a 16% drop without using Scattered Justice.
 
Additionally, none of these changes affect other shotguns or non-Hek-exclusive mods in any way.
 
Hek becomes a bit better without SJ. Vaykor Hek and Kuva Hek become worse without, but Vaykor breaks even and Kuva gets buffed with access to it.
And if DE really don't want you to use a faction mod on a same-faction gun, just ignore the Vaykor Hek changes, and make the other changes (to Hek and Kuva Hek), so that SJ is just Vaykor-prohibited, not base-gun exclusive.
 
Should I send in my job application to your balance department?  ;)
Edited by wyldmage
Corrected a minor mistake
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Why in the world are the sisters so much harder to get than the kuva liches? Because they come with a robot dog as well? Not worth the extra insane challenge honestly. To spawn a kuva lich you pop on over to Cassini on Saturn, run through it in almost no time at all, and spawn a larvaling and check to see if you want their weapon or not then go. To spawn a sister, you have to clear out the enemies that are probably surrounding the stupid gold hand to go to the Granum Void, you have to use a Zenith Coin so it costs an expendable resource, you then have to complete a challenge of killing annoying specter enemies, and if you fail it you don't get a sister candidate to spawn or any other reward and you're out a coin. And if the sister doesn't have the weapon you want? Time to run it again. This whole spawning process already makes it take much longer than spawning a lich, but also has an actual cost tied to it beyond just time in the form of Zenith coins (and added frustration). 

Why not make them spawn like kuva liches do, so in any level 20 or higher corpus mission, or at least make it so they spawn no matter which coin you use so we can just use our regular granum coins instead of the zenith. Would still be more annoying than farming for a lich, have a higher time, and an actual cost tied to it, but at the very least the enemies would be a bit easier to kill. 

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Tenet Diplos NEEDS TO BE FULL AUTO

it simply does not have the stats to only fire 2 shots per lock-on and then force us to wait for it to reacquire targeting. It's very clunky and kills the potential fun of this super slick dual SMG. ADS-dependent fire mode switching also wasn't good with Quatz and it still isn't good with Diplos.

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I am not sure if this was said…but do you guys think you could change it to whoever puts the crown in gets the sister? Because forgetting to switch it to private and others join after the void has been completed and can just kill the person to claim it is a bit saddening. From what I have noticed it is just whoever kills it and that just seems a little well silly but maybe I could be wrong.  

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