Banshee can trivialize the entire final Lich/Sister fight in seconds. Change incoming?

[DrivaMain]

3 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Limbo's entire mechanic is an outlier. No other frame does what he does. Should that be "fixed" too?

As a matter of fact yes. I am in the opinion that DE should do a game wide stat squish if DE wants to stop using blanket damage caps to stop players from one shotting everything everything DE throws at them, but I digress.

 

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

As a matter of fact yes. I am in the opinion that DE should do a game wide stat squish if DE wants to stop using blanket damage caps to stop players from one shotting everything everything DE throws at them, but I digress.

 

This would completely undermine the player progression-power curve, piss off veterans, confuse new players, and be such a massive and expensive undertaking as to not be worth the cost and risk. This "balance" unicorn should not be chased.

[vegetosayajin]

On 2021-07-23 at 12:31 PM, fo3nixz said:

seriously people getting ridiculous with nerf pitchforks

Because there were some ridiculous nerfs in the past. Like when they nerfed Limbo when SS was around and his kit is broken from then on.(Defence target sometimes getting damage with cataclysm and stasis on, a thing that wasn't before.) All because his kit was good in one event/mission, that it was designed for.
The nerf to revenant because of liches. There were many others that I just forgot because it was ridiculous.

  

9 hours ago, ShogunGunshow said:

It is basically impossible for DE to balance things because they have released content for years and years with no overall plan or design philosophy. I doubt they are even aware of all the ways that they've introduced to break the game.

Doesn't matter how much armor you pile on, we have 100% armor strip. Doesn't matter how much health they have, we have ways of amping ours by a 100x and more. Damage they deal? Please, we have ways of being straight-up unkillable. 

It'd take as many years to untangle the mess that is the game's balance and return it to something approaching reasonable. And that ain't gonna happen. So just kick back and enjoy. Might be a nerf here, a nerf there, but the Warframe community will always find a way to turn the latest 'super hard boss' into a joke. 

qft

That's why nerfs are not needed, what's needed are cool mechanics.
The one thing they did good was the glass boss in a way but they didn't go with the idea further. There it didn't matter how much damage you can deal or how do you mod - it only mattered did you understand the mechanics of the boss fight and can you time your jumps and throws. If that idea evolves it will be much easier to come up with boss fights because "abuse" would not be a problem.

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, vegetosayajin said:

The one thing they did good was the glass boss in a way but they didn't go with the idea further. There it didn't matter how much damage you can deal or how do you mod - it only mattered did you understand the mechanics of the boss fight and can you time your jumps and throws. If that idea evolves it will be much easier to come up with boss fights because "abuse" would not be a problem.

I actually tend to hate these kinds of fights the most because it makes all the work you did, all the farming, loadout optimization, etc... all for nothing. It cuts completely against the core design of the game.

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

It is an outlier tho. Sonar being the only ability able to stack multiplicatively with each other is kind of bonkers.

No one said it wasn't an outlier—I said it wasn't an outlier worthy of remedy.

Speaking of outliers, would you say that it was significantly more of an outlier than, for an example, Chroma P/Rubico P. on Eidolans? 

 See what I mean about Motes and Beams?

In hindsight, that may not be the best example as Chroma did get nerfed—The difference being that the nerf came as a surprise to absolutely no one because it was an obvious outlier in all content obviously taking his act to new content.

Same with Limbo...

Same with Khora...

Same with Valkyr after Rathuum...

I guess when Sonar is cheesing all manner of modes in the game this will become more of a useful discussion.

[FrostDragoon]

6 minutes ago, Padre_Akais said:

No one said it wasn't an outlier—I said it wasn't an outlier worthy of remedy.

Speaking of outliers, would you say that it was significantly more of an outlier than, for an example, Chroma P/Rubico P. on Eidolans? 

 See what I mean about Motes and Beams?

In hindsight, that may not be the best example as Chroma did get nerfed—The difference being that the nerf came as a surprise to absolutely no one because it was an obvious outlier in all content obviously taking his act to new content.

Same with Limbo...

Same with Khora...

Same with Valkyr after Rathuum...

I guess when Sonar is cheesing all manner of modes in the game this will become more of a useful discussion.

Have to agree with this.

Banshee was a super niche frame, but most of us veterans have known for ages that Sonar was one of the best damage multipliers in the game. It was just never a problem because her other drawbacks made her unpopular. Helminth remedies some of these to an extent, but given the investment required to really take advantage of a good Banshee build, I would say that not only is it something completely fine in the game, the player deserves to be able to use it.

[DrivaMain]

2 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Have to agree with this.

Banshee was a super niche frame, but most of us veterans have known for ages that Sonar was one of the best damage multipliers in the game. It was just never a problem because her other drawbacks made her unpopular. Helminth remedies some of these to an extent, but given the investment required to really take advantage of a good Banshee build, I would say that not only is it something completely fine in the game, the player deserves to be able to use it.

Yes I know many old players know this tactic already, in fact I use it sometimes.

However, this question always comes in my mind.. why does DE always made World Bosses immune to abilities? It's obvious why, they know that frames like Banshee can stack sonar to make the bosses a complete joke, Mesa with it's aimbot can snipe these bosses far away with Zero effort, etc. If DE just caved in and put these outliers under controls we wouldn't be in these situation where DE has to put a scaling player damage cap.

[Rakosta_Kai]

4 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

DE has to put a scaling player damage cap.

A cap like this in all group content would resolve a lot provided it was applied unilaterally.

Choosing to cap specific builds, tactics, or frames though? That's a bit tacky imo.  

[FrostDragoon]

5 hours ago, DrivaMain said:

Yes I know many old players know this tactic already, in fact I use it sometimes.

However, this question always comes in my mind.. why does DE always made World Bosses immune to abilities? It's obvious why, they know that frames like Banshee can stack sonar to make the bosses a complete joke, Mesa with it's aimbot can snipe these bosses far away with Zero effort, etc. If DE just caved in and put these outliers under controls we wouldn't be in these situation where DE has to put a scaling player damage cap.

I don't think it's a healthy direction for the game, actually. It serves to make people feel like their progress doesn't matter, which--if taken far enough--will cause players to lose interest and stop trying to push through content.

[Numerikuu]

On 2021-07-24 at 11:01 AM, ShortCat said:

@DrivaMainBanshee does not ignore Sister's DR though, she just overpowers it. You can see how damage numbers go from ~6k to 600.

In the video the player uses a 70% roar, which would mean ~230% power strenght. Then add Sonar's ~11.5x damage multiplier (~130x if 2 spots overlap). Then add 360% more base damage from Primary Deadhead with additional 30% more headshot multiplier. Then there is also Arcane Rage with additional 180% damage for primaries.
If you add all those numbers together you would get an insane endresult, so that even 1% would still be a total overkill.

If you are looking for a scabegoat, blame the ridiculous number bloat, feature & power creep.

Eeexactly. Blaming solely one frame when it's not even the frame that's the main thing at fault is just... so tiring.

[Tiltskillet]

10 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

This would completely undermine the player progression-power curve, piss off veterans, confuse new players, and be such a massive and expensive undertaking as to not be worth the cost and risk. This "balance" unicorn should not be chased.

...

9 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

I actually tend to hate these kinds of fights the most because it makes all the work you did, all the farming, loadout optimization, etc... all for nothing. It cuts completely against the core design of the game

That's ironic in a way. I think not pursuing the "balance unicorn" is one of the direct reasons why we've gotten modes like the Glassmaker finale.  See also: invuln phases, status immune bosses, and damage caps.  All mechanics that negate progress we've made in the game in one way or another.

 

[FrostDragoon]

2 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

...

That's ironic in a way. I think not pursuing the "balance unicorn" is one of the direct reasons why we've gotten modes like the Glassmaker finale.  See also: invuln phases, status immune bosses, and damage caps.  All mechanics that negate progress we've made in the game in one way or another.

 

Right, and I think those kinds of things are actually unhealthy for the game for the described reason.

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, FrostDragoon said:

I don't think it's a healthy direction for the game, actually. It serves to make people feel like their progress doesn't matter, which--if taken far enough--will cause players to lose interest and stop trying to push through content.

It's like light levels in Destiny 2, but at least Destiny 2 makes it overt and is consistent. 

Warframe's damage system is both needlessly complex and hopelessly shallow. We have all these damage types and resistances, but they don't matter. Only a handful of damage types are viable and we have a bunch of arbitrary exceptions to entice players to use less popular damage types. Most of these exceptions are as arbitrary as damage caps or scaling DR.

Weapon modding is an exercise in stacking as many multipliers onto a build as possible. The only difficulty is learning where on the damage formula a damage mod applies itself because mods are badly worded in this game. New players scoff at Primed Bane mods because they see +55% Damage to Grineer and assume it's only additive with Serration's +165% Damage, while some veterans go red in the face trying to explain the difference and how Slash procs double dip into Banes nonsense. Then we have Primed Chamber with +100% Bonus Damage on first shot in clip which is additive with Banes and not Base Damage. Or how Condition Overload used to be a separate multiplier from Prime Pressure Point and was exponential with itself just because.

Damage Multiplier Layers:

1. Base Damage
2. Multi-shot / Stance Multipliers (multi-shot is exclusive to guns, stance multipliers exclusive to melee)
3. Elements
4. Critical Multiplier
5. Headshot Multiplier
6. Stealth Damage Bonus
7. Bonus Damage (Banes, Primed Chamber, etc)
8. Viral procs

Probably missing a few things on the list, but it's easy to see why DE has such a difficult time balancing enemy ehp. Exponential armor scaling being multiplicative with health scaling was one broken oversight that DE leaned on to balance another broken oversight. Powercreep has reached critical mass and now they're playing around with Scaling DR.

DE probably needs to take a look at all this and throw these various multipliers into additive bins.

Proposed Multiplier Layers:

1. Base Damage, Critical Multiplier, Viral Procs
2. Elements
3. Multi-shot / Stance Multipliers

Instead of separate multipliers for Stealth, Headshots and Bonus Damage (Banes), replace them with flat Critical Chance which would help weapons with terrible Critical Chance.

• +100% flat Critical Chance on Headshot
• +100% flat Critical Chance on unalerted
• +100% flat Critical Chance on finishers

All multi-shot mods should receive -%accuracy equal to +%multi-shot as a penalty so it actually has a drawback compared to Fire Rate.

On the enemies side, armor shouldn't scale at all, shouldn't have damage caps and shouldn't have scaling DR.

 

 

[Tiltskillet]

15 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

Right, and I think those kinds of things are actually unhealthy for the game for the described reason.

Right, I see that, but I'm not saying it's ironic to you. 😉

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

On 2021-07-23 at 4:24 AM, Kamachi said:

People throw the term "abuse" around so often. Using a well established Warframe ability is not abusing anything.

Like Limbo did with Scarlet Spear? 

[RichardKam]

9小时前 , FrostDragoon 说:

I actually tend to hate these kinds of fights the most because it makes all the work you did, all the farming, loadout optimization, etc... all for nothing. It cuts completely against the core design of the game.

Glassmaker boss fight is just another happy zephyr mini game. Don't be so serious about it. Having them once in a while does not hurt.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

10 minutes ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

Like Limbo did with Scarlet Spear? 

Or like literally any other frame doing what they're supposed to do?

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Or like literally any other frame doing what they're supposed to do?

I mean they nerfed Limbo because he trivialized scarlet spear with his rift. Made it so sentients weren’t effected by his void energy rift. 

[Drachnyn]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)YoungGunn82:

I mean they nerfed Limbo because he trivialized scarlet spear with his rift. Made it so sentients weren’t effected by his void energy rift. 

That's not entirely true. DE made it so sentients gained resistence to stasis so they would eventually break free. Sentients that entered the bubble were still frozen for a good amount of time, easily enough for any decent player to dispatch them easily. He was nerfed but still essentially trivialized the mission. Then again the mission was basically a mobile defense mission so nothing of value was lost before the limbo nerf.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

True that. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)YoungGunn82 said:

I mean they nerfed Limbo because he trivialized scarlet spear with his rift. Made it so sentients weren’t effected by his void energy rift. 

They added an immunity that builds up....which wasn't needed because competent players were killing sentients fine. The change was for the inexperienced lazy players that couldn't kill anything anyway.

[Aldain]

I just got a Bramma for the first time.

I feel physically ill just leveling it up.

Off-topic I know, but there aren't enough words in any language to describe how disgusting this thing is...

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 minutes ago, Aldain said:

I just got a Bramma for the first time.

I feel physically ill just leveling it up.

Off-topic I know, but there aren't enough words in any language to describe how disgusting this thing is...

What've you got it kitted out with? I'm super curious to try the Bramma myself, but I'm still working on my Lich with that spike hammer. I'd love to see what it's like with those mods that augment bows and blast weapons

edit: Assuming I can equip what I want to. Not sure if there's some kind of limiter or something

[FrostDragoon]

9 hours ago, DealerOfAbsolutes said:

Warframe's damage system is both needlessly complex and hopelessly shallow. We have all these damage types and resistances, but they don't matter. Only a handful of damage types are viable and we have a bunch of arbitrary exceptions to entice players to use less popular damage types. Most of these exceptions are as arbitrary as damage caps or scaling DR.

snipped 'cause wall-o-text

Sure, they could try to sort all this out into something more "sensible," but what's the payout for doing so? Mechanics still undermine numbers in this game. Enemies having infinite scaling means DE will always be caught between the casuals and the try-hards, Your proposal wouldn't change that at all (despite being reasonable on paper). Then you have the problem of how much time/money/effort it would cost to go through all that, the unforeseen changes/damage to players arsenals/builds that bring up other ethical questions, given how many players do spend money on the game, and the simple fact that many players simply don't like change for change's sake.

It's a rabbit hole. It's really hard to see any functional difference between this and the endless death spiral of "balance" that ruins so many other games.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

I mean... maybe? I wouldn't be surprised if DE did something to change how Banshee interacts with Sisters/Liches, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. When they talk about certain instances of Sisters/Liches being trivialised, like with the Voidrig and Arquebex, I have to assume more context is possible. Like in general, good teamwork with a pre made group in Warframe frequently trivialises content that can be harder for a disorganised random team, but the game often has to be catered towards the latter. 

Flexibility (meaning people who play Warframe that are willing to pick certain specific Warframe's and certain specific weapons for certain specific tasks) also often trivialises certain parts of the game. Banshee can make Sister/Lich battles faster... but that also requires a person picks Banshee... Like a lot of us in this thread in this forum might be those kinds of players, but we don't necessarily represent the larger forum, lurkers included nor people who play Warframe on the whole. Its also not as straight forward as "flexible players" vs "inflexible" players, because even people who don't try to min/max as much as others, can gravitate towards degrees of efficiency, or ways to streamline an experience.

So it could just be possible that DE may consider the potential for Voidrig and Arquebex to be more of an issue, than Banshee, in respect to what they want. Like if say more people have access to Voidrig and Arquebex than people who play/use Banshee, the single player experience versus a team. Voidrig is tankier, you can still pick whatever Frame you want, sounded like from their tests, solo Voidrig would be fast. Banshee solo is powerful against them, but even more potent in a team. I had a team once of a Banshee, Nyx, Mesa and Volt against Sisters. Was very fast, but it felt somewhat earned, since two of us were in a team and we wanted to see how easy we could make the experience. Despite being relatively fast, didn't feel like an absolute cakewalk, Sisters still teleport around, one person will lag, someone might get Rad procced, etc it was still easy, but the same way a Volt, Trinity/Wisp, Chroma make Tridolon's easy. 

I am aware they are changing some of the Sisters DR values (or at least there was some talk of it) if Banshee is experiencing a huge spike in usage against Sisters then I could see something being changed there too, if not... then I imagine they won't. Meaning for those of us that want to use her, for an easier time, it'll exist, but its also not the only way. Personally I get bored playing a Warframe too much, but also knowing that other people play Warframe differently to me, so its great for Banshee to have a niche/powerful spot in the game in regards to Sister/Lich meta.