Yareli Movement & Stat Changes!

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

Hey 🙂 happy to see where still woking on Yareli and this buffs seem neat n, I look forward to trying them.

I also think there are a lot of smart Tenno here giving some pretty good suggestions, and I'd like to give my two cents on the what I think Yareli needs.

1st. Sea snares : Ensnared enimies that die should have thier bubbles seek new enimies for the remainder of the duration time. I think it should cost a bit less. I'd like to see a hold to cast option that allows all 15 bubbles to be cast in a radial circle around Yareli. And the big one, I think sea snares could really benefit from a synergy with rip tide in the way of a defense strip like Lady Nyx ❤️ [sheilds n, armor] this is how I think it would work, for each snared enimie that gets pulled into the riptide, all enimies get their defenses lower/stripped in the beginning of the ability before the big damge hit, and then it should last after for 3-5 seconds base scaling with duration. As for the defense strip amount I was thinking at least 10% per sea snare and it be great if it scaled with power strength to some degree. Oh and why I think this makes sense thematicaly* is the idea of the bubbles exploding under the pressure of the riptide 🙂👍.

2nd.Merulina : I would really appreciate a indoor mode ya,know to be able to tap/hold the ability to shift gears high [what we have now] and low for indoor tilesets. I think a "low gear" would have better handling a bit slower and over all easier to control. Next I'll ask that Merulinas slam shock wave have a water spoOolsh!🌊 effect and deal cold dmg n, give cold procs to enimies. Also this might be a niche request but if after bootsing/spriting with Merulina when we jump off could Merulina rocket forward and damge enimies in a aoe?

3rd.Aqua blades : I'd love to see the functionality to hold to cast aqua blades then tap for Yareli to do a cute💗 spin and throw a aque blade as a projectile that [central to the targeting retical] bounces/ricochets between enimies n, environment two times, the aqua blade projectile cost energy per tapped cast and is only castable for the duration of aqua blades. So with this I hope to fix Tennos problem with aqua blades on merulina 🙂👍.

4th. Rip tide : Well if the stuff I suggest previously happens then all I need is Ordis to yell WIpeOut! or ThERe All WaSh uP! in game ever time I use the ability 😂.  I sincerely hope one day Yareli get to where most if not all Tennos are happy with her ❤️🤞😎👍 

Keep on fix [DE] I believe.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 hours ago, Maryph said:

They said that this is not planned anytime soon as it would need a complete animation revision and code of all the 50 abilities helminth has to offer and they don't have the time for it right now.

Yeah, I'm not buying this excuse of theirs. Riptide is a full body animation where Yareli jumps up slightly in the air, spins around, and does a little kick to the right. then lands again. It looks exactly the same whether you cast it on the ground or on Merulina. To emphasise, when cast from the latter, she keeps zero of the "I'm on Merulina" animations. Merulina even stops doing her idle side-to-side movement. If she can do a full body animation on Merulina as if she was standing on the ground, I see no reason whatsoever why she wouldn't be able to cast any ability while on Merulina. Not even "but some abilities need you to be on the ground" should work as an excuse if Merulina counts as being on the ground. Harrow's 1 pulls you down to the ground when cast*, yet it's castable when standing on bits of floating terrain, in which case the wave falls down and follows the ground below.

It all boils down to the very same single reason I can think of for why Yareli's damage reduction isn't affected by Strength and doesn't go up to 95%:
DE just doesn't want Yareli to be good.

(*During a test, it turned out that you could cast Condemn and remain airborne, if cast during a bullet jump.)

[Azitc]

My 81 forma yareli will be lookin better than before

[quxier]

2 hours ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

2nd.Merulina : I would really appreciate a indoor mode ya,know to be able to tap/hold the ability to shift gears high [what we have now] and low for indoor tilesets. I think a "low gear" would have better handling a bit slower and over all easier to control.

On PC we could set different button for rolling & "turning on/off sprint". This works on Yareli.

... but keep in mind that DE haven't fixed abilities/things that turns of your sprint (e.g. Start sprinting, after un-equiping Merulina you go to walking-speed).

 

[(PSN)InstantPainX]

Would still be nice if merulina was separately modable I believe this would give more utility to Yareli

[Maryph]

Il y a 2 heures, Perfectly_Framed_Waifu a dit :

Yeah, I'm not buying this excuse of theirs. Riptide is a full body animation where Yareli jumps up slightly in the air, spins around, and does a little kick to the right. then lands again. It looks exactly the same whether you cast it on the ground or on Merulina. To emphasise, when cast from the latter, she keeps zero of the "I'm on Merulina" animations. Merulina even stops doing her idle side-to-side movement. If she can do a full body animation on Merulina as if she was standing on the ground, I see no reason whatsoever why she wouldn't be able to cast any ability while on Merulina. Not even "but some abilities need you to be on the ground" should work as an excuse if Merulina counts as being on the ground. Harrow's 1 pulls you down to the ground when cast*, yet it's castable when standing on bits of floating terrain, in which case the wave falls down and follows the ground below.

It all boils down to the very same single reason I can think of for why Yareli's damage reduction isn't affected by Strength and doesn't go up to 95%:
DE just doesn't want Yareli to be good.

(*During a test, it turned out that you could cast Condemn and remain airborne, if cast during a bullet jump.)

Yeah, you can cast Condemn while airborne
And sometimes it'll pull you to the ground.

Maybe it needs some tweaks for the abilities to be casted on Merulina, or some specific code, I don't know but this is their exuses on their Trello Board.
And if they really don't want Yareli to be good, then why making her in the first place, but I have to agree with you, it's a bit strange for them to tweak her abilities so low and not redoing one of them practically entirely like they did with Xaku's 4/
Truly a mystery, I just hope that this isn't the last pass on Yareli, because as a lot of people already said, her flaws are a lot more anchored in her design and some number tweaks will not make her anywhere near good nor playable on some HL content

They could at least allow primaries/off hand melee while on Merulina.

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

On 2021-08-19 at 2:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Yareli improvements are incoming, Tenno! You’ve been patiently waiting for word on what changes will come to our latest Warframe, and this Dev Workshop covers our current plans for her kit. Read on!

We have 2 areas that are being buffed: Stats, and Utility. 

Utility Changes: We are introducing a foundational change to Yareli’s movement: Merulina Dashing (tap Roll/Dash)! 

This can be executed in any direction and is effectively a new way to close gaps (or quickly retreat!) and alter the direction of Yareli aboard Merulina! This also enhances the way you can traverse vertically with responsive directional input while in the air. We’ve made a handy .gif to demonstrate just what we mean: 
 

What you see in this .gif is a vertical traversal that’s currently tough to do with Yareli. However,  with the forward dash the momentum movement now allows for directional maneuvering. Then, we see Yareli Dash both Forward AND Back in the .gif, showing how you can certainly take advantage of this new movement tool!

This is a change that’s best experienced in your hands, but it is certainly a huge improvement for navigating all of Warframes tilesets! 

We have also made some changes to general Merulina movement by allowing for shorter jumps, and reducing overall jump charge time.

Yareli Stat Changes:
We’ve made some Stat changes to Yareli’s abilities as well. These are buffs across the board, and details are as follows: 

Sea Snares:
-Increase seek speed by about 60% and slightly increase bubble visibility to better register your casts. 

Aquablades:
-Increase range by just about 25%
-Increase damage and duration by 50%
 

RipTide:
Bigger is better. The bigger we Rip, the more enemies, the better scaling, and so on!
-Increase radius by 25%
 

You can look forward to this in our next update, Tenno! 

Cheers! 

Those two worthwhile changes at the bottom still aren't gonna be enough to make her something people will WANT to play. Not only that, but she is still gimped by design, as K drives are still the worst form of movement. I don't use her for a reason, and the whole K drive thing isn't interesting to start with. She is still gonna be a pain to use in tight corridors. Riptide especially still has the problem of throwing enemies away from you. That's inefficient when trying to kill stuff. Just make riptide not toss enemies, and make Aquablades at least scale off strength. Ik range isn't a stat to consider since you dont want people killing enemies through walls with the ability, but at least make it scale with strength for more dmg. So far these changes are still not gonna help Yareli, at least imo, I don't find her useful for anything other than the lulz.

[master_of_destiny]

5 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

...

Just... Yes? It stands to reason that they clearly don't want Yareli being a brand new, way-too-OP Warframe, going by how slow and weak the adjustments to her are going. But lets say they buff her stuff all the way up to being an average Warframe, not the best at many things, but really okay or good at several things. If they did that exclusively by making their abilities interdependent on each other to achieve that okay-ness, then replacing any of her abilities (or putting her Aquablades on someone else) would be really rough, as it'd reduce the viability that was given by her Synergy.

Synergy-heavy Warframes are really fun. I adore Nezha, whose 1, 2, and 4 are all really synergistic, or Wukong's 1 benefiting from 2, 3, and 4. So much fun, that they can be difficult to justify swapping out certain abilities sometimes. It's nice, by comparison, to see Zephyr's abilities no longer requiring they be used in tandem (budging Tornadoes with 1, using 2 to increase their size, etc), as I can just replace whichever ability I feel like, without feeling like I've ruined her entire kit. I'm just pointing out, while some synergy, which you'll note that I provided suggestions for, would make her more engaging to play with, but failing to fix her ability's fundamental weaknesses would be rough.

You get it!

Her entire kit theoretically is supposed to revolve around movement via her Merulina, rushing around, bubbling enemies with SeaSnares, slashing them with Aquablades as you rip past them, and gathering them all up with Riptide. But Aquablades depends on you being a very specific range near (and away! cuz dead-zone center of the ring of spinning blades!) to enemies and doesn't do any added damage/range (that I've noticed) by being on Merulina, by having them recently Riptided or currently SeaSnared, and there's no interaction with SeaSnares or Riptide, or Riptide and Aquablades.

There are ways to make her abilities individually better (per-level scaling on Aquablades and SeaSnare's damage, status chance for the cold damage on SeaSnares, giving Merulina K-Drive modding capability, and the simple number-tweaks they're giving Riptide, though it could also use scaling damage such as level-based damage), but there are also synergy options for buffs (explicit bonus damage to enemies currently or recently affected by another ability, increasing any combination of range/strength/efficiency/duration of abilities while on Merulina, making the first Aquablade hit on a SeaSnared foe send an Aquablade flying to the nearest SeaSnared/un-SeaSnared/or-any enemy, making Riptide pull in all SeaSnared enemies, or all up to a capped maximum distance, or of a multiplied distance from it's modded duration such as double or quadruple the normal range, making Riptide refresh the duration of SeaSnares, make any SeaSnares that hit existing SeaSnares "explode" in a radius around the impacted target, dealing damage to them, and SeaSnaring enemies in the blast radius, have Aquablades divert and travel to Riptide when cast, hitting enemies en route and also within the Riptide).
I'd prefer if DE did a bit of both, rather than relying on exclusively one or the other. Obviously not ALL of these synergies or direct buffs would need to be applied for her to start feeling competitive, but a cherrypicked few would feel great on her.

 

I....find it immensely amusing that you can hear the same argument, quote both of them, and determine that one is right and the other is wrong.

 

So we are clear, I stated the powers can stand on their own and that good synergies do not have the base powers being nerfed into irrelevance to balance out the synergy.  Sunderthefirmament instead categorized this as dependent powers versus synergistic.  It's taking the term synergy, and separating out those items which are nerfed to promote the synergy with those whose synergistic cap are allowed to be much higher.

 

Despite the same argument...I'm wrong and right.  You do see how this might be taken as an inability to synthesize basic information, right?  I mean, two people independently told you the same thing.  That is, synergies do not have to result in nerfs.

 

 

 

Now, allow me to finish the thought process for you.  You seem to not like how DE has dealt with Yareli.  Fine.  You justify this as them "not making her OP."  I think you're jumping the gun here...but let's put that aside and give you the benefit of doubt.  What really matters right now is that it has been a month and change since release.  At launch the only people who mattered (the influencers who act as DE's free marketing arm) stated that this frame was way underpowered.  Before most people could earn her through the long wait, DE released a basic increase to stats.  At that point, DE stated that Yareli was fine and no more changes were coming in the near future.

Flash forward less than a single quarter.  Yareli is getting huge stat boosts.  Not huge in the sense of being 200%...but huge in that a fully upgraded warframe will basically have 300% of current stats...which shows that at default they were truly garbage.  To top this, it isn't one underwhelming power.  It's multiple.  That screams that DE have now acknowledge that the feedback was accurate, and that usage statistics are low.

Of course, you then used Zephyr.  You really shouldn't have.  Most other frames I can agree to disagree.  Zephyr is another story.  She initially had so very many issues.  Tailwind and Divebomb were two abilities, but between cramped levels and needing to use tailwind to use divebomb things were useless.  I played her for years without ever using a dive bomb.  You then look at the state of her release tornado.  Garbage range, and enemies inside it were invincible.  Ouch.  It took until her prime to get any love, and that was to collapse her divebomb into tailwind (making the singular ability now actually one), and install an ability that was required to buff her tornados to a substantial power.  Hmmm....this would be defined as synergies done wrong, because instead of each ability being good they were required to be cast in succession.  As the other poster called it, dependent rather than synergistic.  Now you've got a stable Zephyr.  Air burst lost all synergies with tornado...so literally nothing from Zephyr's kit has synergy.  Why then do I not have issues?  

Well, let me answer with the simplest response.  Airburst is the first ability that I remove.  Now Zephyr can use the Helminth to get an ability that does have synergy.  You want her to be crowd control, slap down a dispensary.  Tornado sucks enemies up, turbulence blocks projectiles, and dispensary sustains.  You want damage?  Slap on gloom and you can suck up all the enemies into a single tornado and in one shot transfer enough damage through the tornado to liquify them.  

 

Do I then endorse the Helminth?  Well, no.  Airburst with Zephyr sucks.  Mesa's 1 sucks.  These abilities are largely non-synergistic with their host frame, so replacing them is difficult.  On the other hand, you have Sevagoth.  Each ability is linked to different parts of him.  At best you can give up reap...but when you do there's a penalty for how fast you fill his death well meter.  Likewise, Yareli could synergize...but you then discover that subsumed abilities aren't capable of being cast while on Merulina.  Oh joy...Yareli has a requirement to use Merulina, because she's fragile.  She also can't use any subsumed abilities on Merulina...because.  This means amongst frames Yareli is basically unique in that none of her abilities should be subsumed off of her...because the loss of any ability basically forces her to have one less while riding her only chance at survival on a k-drive....ouch.  For Yareli the Helminth system is not a trade-off analysis, but a poisoned apple.  

If Yareli can't reasonably subsume...and her powers are functionally locked to Merulina...then what is Yareli before unlocking Merulina?  Is it unreasonable to ask for her powers to internally synergize...given no other frames can use them and Yareli can't even use the powers for other frames?  Are these questions being asked rhetorically, because after Xaku, Protea, Grendel, and now Yareli there's substantive questions to be asked about DE's ability to release any new content that isn't garbage?  Time's up.  The answer is yes.  If DE doesn't let Yareli work with anything else, then she should have synergistic and strong abilities, to compensate for all of her shortcomings.  You're welcome to argue...but while you do I suggest you try building a Grendel, and subsuming his ability to consume enemies off.  That's basically what every ability is for Yareli...and as such is pretty goofy to ever consider touching with the Helminth...or for that matter playing with her in-game.

[PublikDomain]

On 2021-08-20 at 12:59 PM, Kaiune said:

What kdrive mod would really help it be any better?

Yes, but even if they couldn't it wouldn't hurt. Letting Merulina be moddable would mean a few things:

• Movement mods would let Merulina actually match or surpass a bog-standard K-Drive, when right now it's a lot slower.
  • You could also customize your speed/jump height to something that fits your preferences instead of having it unmoddable and hoping it works for everyone.
• Quick Escape could give an 5-second invincibility window when mounting Merulina, giving some added survivability.
• Juice and Interia Dampeners could let her generate energy while riding.
• Bomb The Landing, Cold Arrival, Kinetic Friction, Slay Board, Sonic Boost, Thrash Landing, and Trail Blazer all provide ways to spread status procs or CC using Merulina.
  • And if they were buffed, or the game's damage economy were balanced, then their piddly damage could actually be used to kill enemies.

[GreyEnneract]

On 2021-08-19 at 12:57 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

We have also made some changes to general Merulina movement by allowing for shorter jumps, and reducing overall jump charge time.

The board swaying while turning will still be too floaty (not in a good way) and will still be the main problem with the board.
Not to mention the loss of all momentum mid-air if you so much as tap any surface with the edge of your hitbox.

Aquablades:
-Increase range by just about 25%
-Increase damage and duration by 50%

The base range is 4 meters. You (general devs) are adding 1 meter to the ability and using percentages to be misleading.
Just let it scale with range mods and stop stalling, it's been over a month already.
 

RipTide:
Bigger is better. The bigger we Rip, the more enemies, the better scaling, and so on!
-Increase radius by 25%

This literally does nothing. Lol.
Yareli doesn't strip armor, therefore Riptide will never be good.
Not to mention that this ability falls off even against health only enemies around level 80.
Vauban's Bastille armor strip into Photon Strike is better, and even that still isn't used as a viable, efficient strategy.
 

You can look forward to this in our next update, Tenno! 

I don't understand what took so long when the changes are this mundane, when:
There's still the problem of her not being able to use subsumed abilities while on Merulina.
Quick Thinking still knocking her off of Merulina, even with Primed Sure Footed, or any other stagger mod.
The board in general not having CC immunity inherently (like Warding Halo/Iron Skin), forcing players to use a mod that requires 400 to 800 days of logins.
Her passive giving multiplicative critical chance, despite her signature weapon having a base critical chance of 6%.
Being unable to use ciphers or revive while on Merulina.
Merulina's damage reduction doesn't scale with strength mods, and doesn't even have a grace period to build up more health like Warding Halo and Iron Skin.
Hell, Merulina isn't even moddable period.
 

Cheers!

These all aren't just wants, they're clear inconsistencies with how other things work in the game, along with laughable number changes, and clearly rushed or zero thought put into design (such as the passive and Kompressa afterthought).
Looking at the track record of other frames that received changes after release, this post-month period was Yareli's last chance.
This is usually when you guys move on to the next frame and content, and leave the frame mediocre for roughly 2 years, which is a shame.
Great concept, awful execution, rest in peace Yareli.

 

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 hours ago, Maryph said:

And if they really don't want Yareli to be good, then why making her in the first place, but I have to agree with you, it's a bit strange for them to tweak her abilities so low and not redoing one of them practically entirely like they did with Xaku's 4/

Because Warframe needs a new frame to come out four times per year, ideally with a rather even time in-between, I'd imagine. DE also seems to favor the visuals over balance any day, thus we got some cool water effect but very basic gameplay effects. Still, making Merulina's damage reduction scale with Strength up to a 95% cap is a change you'd be able to do over a coffee break, so I can in all honesty think of no other reason for why Yareli is so bad other than that they want her that way.

[quxier]

On 2021-08-20 at 9:59 PM, Kaiune said:

What kdrive mod would really help it be any better?

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Yes, but even if they couldn't it wouldn't hurt. Letting Merulina be moddable would mean a few things:

• Movement mods would let Merulina actually match or surpass a bog-standard K-Drive, when right now it's a lot slower.
  • You could also customize your speed/jump height to something that fits your preferences instead of having it unmoddable and hoping it works for everyone.
• Quick Escape could give an 5-second invincibility window when mounting Merulina, giving some added survivability.
• Juice and Interia Dampeners could let her generate energy while riding.
• Bomb The Landing, Cold Arrival, Kinetic Friction, Slay Board, Sonic Boost, Thrash Landing, and Trail Blazer all provide ways to spread status procs or CC using Merulina.
  • And if they were buffed, or the game's damage economy were balanced, then their piddly damage could actually be used to kill enemies.

+ it open possibilities for new mods:

 

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

2 hours ago, ABlindGuyPlays said:

However cold damage? On both her attacks? Put corrosive on. What's the harm given it can't even full armor strip anymore.

It wouldn't matter. Both of her Cold abilities have 0% status chance, because along with poor damage and poor survivability, poor CC is also a part of Yareli's theme.

[Cappucchino]

I don't know if it is still like what I experience before or not about Aquablades. But, the hit will only registered when having a contact with the blades themselves, increasing the range will increase the gap of enemies in melee range not get hit even more?

[LillyRaccune]

15 minutes ago, Cappucchino said:

I don't know if it is still like what I experience before or not about Aquablades. But, the hit will only registered when having a contact with the blades themselves, increasing the range will increase the gap of enemies in melee range not get hit even more?

You are correct. Aquablades only attacks along the ring-shaped perimeter and the range is not affected by mods.

[GreyEnneract]

17 minutes ago, LillyRaccune said:

You are correct. Aquablades only attacks along the ring-shaped perimeter and the range is not affected by mods.

This is why it would have to use the Spectrorage logic of just spawning more mirrors the more range you have.
In Yareli's case it'd just be spawning a new additional set of blades every 2 to 4 meters.

[Azimbee]

You know what's funny? I encountered a bug a while ago with Merulina that let me bullet jump and dodge roll while on it. It retained the physics of slippery k-drive. I could not for the life of me reproduce the bug because it only happened once clientside in a group on deimos but I really wish I could have: It was a ton of fun to have that much air control over Merulina. Eventually the bug broke and I was stuck, ending the fun.

It was the most fun I had using Merulina, something slower, but more controllable but still cool looking and tricky. It was kinda like having the captura archwing-sprint bug but tenno to board. So I'm actually happy to see the changes to Merulina. Being able to control her more effectively really really is enjoyable on principle. Trust me on this one ya'll. 

As far as the numerical changes go, I'll just have to see how it pans out. Yareli doesn't have a problem doing star chart content, so the initial values aren't the issue, I think. It's that her abilities don't scale too well against increasingly armored and higher level enemies. Actually, because her aquablades deal slash status damage, it with Expedite Suffering is the only way to deal meaningful scaling damage with Yareli.

Aside from that, she's actually kinda fun. Moderately survivable too, between Shield Gating and the invincible dismount on Merulina. Maybe we'll get some cool augments for her? I look forward to that. I don't mind how Yareli is so much because they could always release great augments for her. Kinda like Banshee. Banshee's base abilities are kinda lackluster, but all her augments are NUTS. If we get something like that for Yareli I'd be happy as a banshee main to have another frame like that.

[--BIG--Doug-Desu]

Good change in movement, but her kit still doesn't make sense, there's no synergy.
Why do I have blades to deal damage at close range if the other 3 abilities scream "group control" and "move"? I don't want to get close to enemies !!!

[-Edrick-]

A step into the right direction. 
So I'll keep my feed back simple:
1) Allow Sea Snare to synergize with Riptide by allowing snared or 'bubbled' targets (that are sucked into the Riptide) to add or multiply the damage to improve Riptide's dmg scaling.  
2) When Riptide explodes and throws its 'payload' all over the place, allow the scattered bodies to act as cluster bombs and do AoE damage where they land. 

 

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

13 hours ago, quxier said:

On PC we could set different button for rolling & "turning on/off sprint". This works on Yareli.

... but keep in mind that DE haven't fixed abilities/things that turns of your sprint (e.g. Start sprinting, after un-equiping Merulina you go to walking-speed).

 

To clarify, on consoles we can click the analog stick to sprint or not on Merulina, and we don't need another botton on console we can, as I was trying to explain just tap the Merulin ability while mounted to shift to a more manageable mobility method for indoor tilesets. Thats the gist of my Idea there. 👍

[quxier]

19 minutes ago, (XBOX)DragonMan 2700 said:

To clarify, on consoles we can click the analog stick to sprint or not on Merulina, and we don't need another botton on console we can, as I was trying to explain just tap the Merulin ability while mounted to shift to a more manageable mobility method for indoor tilesets. Thats the gist of my Idea there. 👍

Ah, so you just want "walking speed" by default on Merulina. Yeah, make sense. +1

ps. I think we could use 1 button for rolls and turning sprint on/off. It's just easier/better to have separate keys, imho.

 

[Grav_Starstrider]

Nobody else in this thread needs to suffer from this clarification.

Spoiler

  

13 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

I....find it immensely amusing that you can hear the same argument, quote both of them, and determine that one is right and the other is wrong.

 

So we are clear, I stated the powers can stand on their own and that good synergies do not have the base powers being nerfed into irrelevance to balance out the synergy.  Sunderthefirmament instead categorized this as dependent powers versus synergistic.  It's taking the term synergy, and separating out those items which are nerfed to promote the synergy with those whose synergistic cap are allowed to be much higher.

 

Despite the same argument...I'm wrong and right.  You do see how this might be taken as an inability to synthesize basic information, right?  I mean, two people independently told you the same thing.  That is, synergies do not have to result in nerfs.

Hey, maybe don't insult people? And maybe don't display an inability to synthesize information yourself? I just said in the thread you quoted me back from:

20 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

Oh I'm the last person to argue that Helminth should be the solution to half-baked abilities. I'm just saying I'd rather see genuinely self-sufficient abilities worth the energy they cost to cast, without being reliant on casting two abilities.

You can't claim that a Warframe's Abilities will be better and scale better when paired together, and that the effectiveness of the ability won't go down if you traded one of the abilities out for a Helminth Infusion. Or that the Subsumed ability will be weaker due to the lack of the synergy.

I hear what you're saying, how if you make them synergistic based on what another Ability provides, then you can use weapons, companions, mods/arcanes or other Infusable Abilities, that can provide these abilities the same bonuses (like Ash's Bladestorm benefiting from ANY invisibility, not just his Smokebomb's Invisibility). I'd just prefer innate scaling on the individual Abilities, without them being explicitly dependent on each other, so that Helminth Infusions don't feel like you're utterly crippling Yareli's already-sad kit. I hate Helminth being an excuse to "fix it yourself if you hate this Ability so much" solution for DE to avoid balancing Abilities, I love the opportunity to craft unique playstyles on Warframes though.

And like. I have also said that I wouldn't mind a bit of both? Meet halfway? You don't have to sound so arrogant and claim I'm missing a ton of stuff, when you seemed to miss what I was saying :V

13 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now, allow me to finish the thought process for you.

Can ya stop being condescending :V

13 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You seem to not like how DE has dealt with Yareli.  Fine.  You justify this as them "not making her OP."  I think you're jumping the gun here...but let's put that aside and give you the benefit of doubt.  What really matters right now is that it has been a month and change since release.  At launch the only people who mattered (the influencers who act as DE's free marketing arm) stated that this frame was way underpowered.  Before most people could earn her through the long wait, DE released a basic increase to stats.  At that point, DE stated that Yareli was fine and no more changes were coming in the near future.

Flash forward less than a single quarter.  Yareli is getting huge stat boosts.  Not huge in the sense of being 200%...but huge in that a fully upgraded warframe will basically have 300% of current stats...which shows that at default they were truly garbage.  To top this, it isn't one underwhelming power.  It's multiple.  That screams that DE have now acknowledge that the feedback was accurate, and that usage statistics are low.

.... Yeah? What's your point? I was playing devil's advocate to briefly show what their apparent thought process was. DE clearly wanted to avoid overdoing it with Yareli, and made sure they actively avoided giving her ludicrous scaling mechanics. They went the opposite direction as Saryn (genocide queen with theoretically near-infinite Spore scaling). Now they realized the opposite direction is too far, since they're considering buffing her again. I get this. Why are you framing this as an argument?

13 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Of course, you then used Zephyr.  You really shouldn't have.  Most other frames I can agree to disagree.  Zephyr is another story.  She initially had so very many issues.  Tailwind and Divebomb were two abilities, but between cramped levels and needing to use tailwind to use divebomb things were useless.  I played her for years without ever using a dive bomb.  You then look at the state of her release tornado.  Garbage range, and enemies inside it were invincible.  Ouch.  It took until her prime to get any love, and that was to collapse her divebomb into tailwind (making the singular ability now actually one), and install an ability that was required to buff her tornados to a substantial power.  Hmmm....this would be defined as synergies done wrong, because instead of each ability being good they were required to be cast in succession.  As the other poster called it, dependent rather than synergistic.  Now you've got a stable Zephyr.  Air burst lost all synergies with tornado...so literally nothing from Zephyr's kit has synergy.  Why then do I not have issues?  

Well, let me answer with the simplest response.  Airburst is the first ability that I remove.  Now Zephyr can use the Helminth to get an ability that does have synergy.  You want her to be crowd control, slap down a dispensary.  Tornado sucks enemies up, turbulence blocks projectiles, and dispensary sustains.  You want damage?  Slap on gloom and you can suck up all the enemies into a single tornado and in one shot transfer enough damage through the tornado to liquify them.  

 

Do I then endorse the Helminth?  Well, no.  Airburst with Zephyr sucks.  Mesa's 1 sucks.  These abilities are largely non-synergistic with their host frame, so replacing them is difficult.

WOW the condescension contintinues, and MAN did you just tunnel-vision like heck on that one example. You hated her original kit. However:

20 hours ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

It's nice, by comparison, to see Zephyr's abilities no longer requiring they be used in tandem (budging Tornadoes with 1, using 2 to increase their size, etc), as I can just replace whichever ability I feel like, without feeling like I've ruined her entire kit. I'm just pointing out, while some synergy, which you'll note that I provided suggestions for, would make her more engaging to play with, but failing to fix her ability's fundamental weaknesses would be rough.

I was talking about CURRENT Zephyr :V  you didn't have to go on and on about her original kit, my subtext implied that I wasn't the same fan of her previous iterations. And how is it hard to replace non-synergizing Abilities? Did you mean to say it "isn't difficult", since you're saying you find yourself effortlessly Infusing over Airburst/Ballistic-Battery? If not, something sounds backwards. You talk about getting more synergy from another Helminth ability but that... Just proves my point? I'm not saying explicit Ability-interdependent synergies are bad, they just make it harder to justify customizations to the Warframe via Helminth, as you're losing out on the synergies when you Infuse over one, or when you Subsume it and Infuse it elsewhere. It nerfs the kit or the Subsumed ability.

13 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Likewise, Yareli could synergize...but you then discover that subsumed abilities aren't capable of being cast while on Merulina.  Oh joy...Yareli has a requirement to use Merulina, because she's fragile.  She also can't use any subsumed abilities on Merulina...because.  This means amongst frames Yareli is basically unique in that none of her abilities should be subsumed off of her...because the loss of any ability basically forces her to have one less while riding her only chance at survival on a k-drive....ouch.  For Yareli the Helminth system is not a trade-off analysis, but a poisoned apple.  

If Yareli can't reasonably subsume...and her powers are functionally locked to Merulina...then what is Yareli before unlocking Merulina?  Is it unreasonable to ask for her powers to internally synergize...given no other frames can use them and Yareli can't even use the powers for other frames?  Are these questions being asked rhetorically, because after Xaku, Protea, Grendel, and now Yareli there's substantive questions to be asked about DE's ability to release any new content that isn't garbage?  Time's up.  The answer is yes.  If DE doesn't let Yareli work with anything else, then she should have synergistic and strong abilities, to compensate for all of her shortcomings. 

Again, why are we arguing? It sounds like we're more or less on the same page already, but that you misunderstood me or fabricated arguments where there shouldn't have been any. I've pointed out that Merulina's inability to use Melee, Primary, Infused Abilities, and standard Warframe Mobility are all massive downsides to using Merulina, and so it's extra obnoxious that her DR is arbitrarily capped below other comparable DRs. Her SeaSnares being capped at 15 instances hanging out on the map (aside from already-Snared enemies) and still-will-be-kinda-low range on her Riptide and still-really-low-range Aquablades don't CC enemies enough unless you make an infinite supply of energy via pads or Zenurik or Arcane Energize or Energy Generator or Sharpshooter etc, so the DR of Merulina is feeling kinda mandatory to utilize. After all, it's DR for as long as Merulina lasts, which is longer than Yareli will last even with the DR boost.

You're right, and as myself and others have commented, Yareli's survival rate/ease feels really poor if you don't replace Merulina with another DR solution, and replacing anything but Merulina sucks since you can't cast them from Merulina (again, why are we arguing???)

You're right, if they don't fix Yareli so that Infusions aren't universally a "poisoned apple" on her, she should have straight-up buffs and synergies, which again, I've said I'd agree with. Why are we arguing?? Oh yeah, you implied I suck at data synthesis and made arguments where there was mostly already agreement :V I just want her individual abilities to scale better on their own, without being dependent on other abilities, which you already implied you agree with via your old-Zephyr arguments. She can additionally have some slightly better internal synergies, ideally not exclusively ability-dependent, but rather ability-enabling, such as faster movement making faster Aquablades, which would make it fun on any other fast-Frames, or by replacing Yareli's Merulina with something like Infested Mobility, or even Saryn's Molt, etc.

13 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

You're welcome to argue...but while you do I suggest you try building a Grendel, and subsuming his ability to consume enemies off.  That's basically what every ability is for Yareli...and as such is pretty goofy to ever consider touching with the Helminth...or for that matter playing with her in-game.

You're the one picking arguments :V don't assume I haven't built Grendel and gotten immediately annoyed at how dependent his other abilities are on his 1. I was happy AF when Nidus got other stack-building options with his Larva buffs and augment.

 

This was a really long way of saying "I don't know why the heck you're trying to turn tons of dialogue into explicit arguments when they're mostly just exploring what's happening and what probably should happen", basically :V

We can have a productive conversation exploring the specific nuances of the game, and the nuances of each other's views, without being condescending or argumentative. If you loved synergy, and I value abilities being useful by their own merit, we should politely agree to disagree. If we're in agreement on things in general, just clarify anywhere that you disagree, without being rude. If I misunderstood or missed something entirely, you can just re-clarify what was missed, you don't have to take personal offense and then cause offense in turn. Being rude will only get people's hackles up, and if we want to get DE to make any changes to the game, we need to have a more unified voice, not a fractured one. Being combative doesn't help anyone. Gets threads locked, or 90% of a useful discussion removed because of the 10% that was rude.

I stand by what I said. If DE makes her substantial mechanical buffs (which she NEEDS far more than mere number-tweaks) more synergy-based, then it ruins her kit as soon as one of the synergy-providing Abilities is Helminth-Infused over, and the same goes for Aquablades when Infused on another Warframe that lacks Yareli's other Abilities to give it synergy. Numerical buffs are appreciated, as would synergy-additions (ideally not explicitly Ability-dependent, but rather just opportunities/traits that her other Abilities can provide, as other sources could), but I personally fundamentally want Yareli's Abilities to perform and scale better individually more than anything.

[sunderthefirmament]

6 hours ago, Azimbee said:

As far as the numerical changes go, I'll just have to see how it pans out. Yareli doesn't have a problem doing star chart content, so the initial values aren't the issue, I think. It's that her abilities don't scale too well against increasingly armored and higher level enemies. 
 

This is really what I'm worried about.  To me, Yareli has two major problems.  One is just how awful Merulina performs on most tiles.  DE's upcoming fixes for her might make that a little better.  But you bring up my other concern: scaling.  Buffing her base damage isn't going to do anything, because, like you say, her damage is already fine for star chart.  Heck, Hydroid's damage is fine for star chart.

 

I don't think her kit needs base level buffs.  It needs added functionality and complexity (perhaps synergies, as long as they don't feel awful or like dependencies) to account for scaling.  It needs more player interaction.

 

DE really needs to rethink introducing damaging powers that don't have some degree of scaling or added utility.

[(XBOX)TehChubbyDugan]

First off, how about putting that forward dash on every K-drive?  It has never made any kind of sense that there are engines on the back of the K-drives but you can just straight up lose all momentum and not get it back until you're near the ground again.  They float and there's engines on the back.  You should be able to get momentum going regardless of where you are in relation to the ground; they work over water ffs.  You keep putting out K-drive content, finish making them a full part of the game and actually polish something for once.  They're in a bad place in general.

Also, The things you're doing don't fix many of Yareli's main issues, like the complete lack of synergy in her kit.  50% more damage on the blades isn't going to let her do much more past leveling a little easier in Hydron before she gets tossed aside after getting the MR from her.  Just going to copy a comment I already made on this issue:

She'd be easy to fix, too. 

• Remove the delay between the triple hit on her 3 so that it hits repeatedly at the same pace instead of having a pause after 3 hits. 
• Have her 3 deal double damage to enemies that are caught in her 1. 
• Have Merulina cause any enemy snared by her 1 to get dragged behind the Kdrive the same way the node in Zenurik pulls enemies.  
• Have the blades on her 3 hit in a wider area around each blade while on her Kdrive.  This ensures contact with the dragged enemies.

Now you have a reason to be on the stupid Kdrive because it would drag around your ensnared enemies while constantly blending them with her 3 with extra damage from the proposed synergy between her 1 and 3.

As for synergy with her 4, have any enemies that are ensnared by her 1 automatically teleported into the vortex so that you have a better way of grouping them, because right now it doesn't group very well in crowded terrain.  They could add a strength-based armor strip to the vortex based on how many ensnared enemies were teleported in.  Something like base 5% per enemy.  This would further increase the damage and slash proc damage from her 3 on any hard targets that survive all that and enable her to be used in higher level content.

You'd have a frame zipping around, dragging enemies behind them getting blended and when you had sufficient targets that weren't dying to the blender or a big group you could hit your 4, group them, strip armor and then chop them to pieces.  The only other thing they would need to do is make companion mods work while on Merulina and you'd have a solid frame.  Might even be viable in really high level content at that point.

The fact that I don't see the companion mod issue being addressed makes me think it's not going to get fixed.

[Perfectly_Framed_Waifu]

1 hour ago, Grav_Starstrider said:

then it ruins her kit as soon as one of the synergy-providing Abilities is Helminth-Infused over

If we're gonna be like that, replacing any ability on a frame without synergies also ruins their kit, because a frame's kit is their set of abilities, no? It's fine to "ruin" a frame's kit depending on what playstyle you're going for. All of Gara's abilities synergize with at least one other, so sure, replacing Spectrorage does indeed ruin her kit. Yet a lot of people are fine with that, because their playstyle doesn't involve using that part of her kit. If you're like me and hate stacking Splinter Storm damage, you could ruin that part of her kit by replacing her 1 with, say, Ensnare, and suddenly you have a kit that's all about gathering and CCing enemies. Kit: ruined. Playstyle: enhanced. For Saryn, merely running Narrow Minded is enough to all but "ruin" her kit as you can no longer spread Spores far and wide. Replace her 4 with a damage buff like Eclipse, run her 1 augment, and you instead have a playstyle revolving around weapon buffs. Kit: ruined. Playstyle: enhanced.

Now, let's say we give Yareli some example synergies:

• Hitting Sea Snare'd enemies with Aquablades makes the bubbles explode, dealing level-based damage in an AoE with a guaranteed Bleed proc.
• If a Sea Snare'd enemy is caught in Riptide, Sea Snare spreads to every enemy caught in it.
• Aquablades deals double damage to enemies caught in Riptide.
• Merulina is healed by 10% of all damage done by Sea Snare, Aquablades, and Riptide.
• While on Merulina, Yareli gets 2.5 energy per kill from enemies affected by Sea Snare, Aquablades, and Riptide.

Looking at this, we can see the following:

• Replacing Sea Snare removes the AoE burst in combo with Aquablade, the spreading CC in combo with Riptide, and one way to heal Merulina.
• Replacing Merulina removes Yareli's built-in source of energy, and the healing from her other abilities.
• Replacing Aquablades removes Sea Snare's AoE burst, the increased damage to Riptide enemies, and one way to heal Merulina.
• Replacing Riptide removes Sea Snare's CC spread, Aquablades' double damage, and one way to heal Merulina.

Does replacing any of these abilities "ruin" Yareli's kit? Again, sure. But the replacements still allow you to lean more into one playstyle or the other, enhancing it.

 

tl;dr: Nothing wrong with these kinds of synergies, because playstyle > kit.