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How would you (if you were a designer) handle AOE weapons?


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It is completely out of control - like it was back in the miragulator/tonkor spam days years ago, now just replaced with bramma/ogris spam.

  • Bring back self damage? (which sucked because you'd get killed everytime your teammate jumped in front of you, or your pet, or some ai, or the projectile would clip a wall, or the AOE was so big on any indoor map you were cooked)
  • remove iron skin/prime sure footed/etc  from saving you? (They would only prevent ENEMY/Environmental knockdowns?
  • Remove AOE weapons from the game entirely?
  • nerf them like was done to the simulor/sonicor/staticor so they are little more than MR fodder?
  • Leave them as is?
  • Reduce (increase?) all their max fire rates to 3+seconds regardless of mods?
  • Other?
     

I hate them in the game, yet pretty much only use them - because they are simply the fastest way to completely trivialize the farm right up through level 150 enemies.  Of course I don't actually really need to hardcore farm anything anyway so a reduction in efficiency FOR ME wouldn't have me getting all salty.  If you don't use them, if you play on public you're just playing janitor cleaning up a few stragglers, or you are deliberately handicapping yourself.

I personally lean towards just yank them all from the game as they can't seem to find any way to balance them but i'm not very creative.



 

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Similar to @(XBOX)C11H22O11, with the additional elements of making them their own weapon class, similar to shotguns, complete with their own mods and ammo type. Conveniently, this weapon class doesn't get an Ammo Mutation, Ammo Scavengers, and is ineligible for other things like Carrier's ammo mutation (although Carrier does still increase base ammo capacity. I'm not a monster). Some things like dispensary, ammo packs and Dig can still replenish ammo, possibly at a reduced rate.

This is because the big limiting factor of most AoE weapons is typically that their ammo is either rare, highly limited in terms of how much you can carry, or both. Using these weapons is at a premium, since they effectively multiply their damage for every target in the blast radius - mathematically being able to hit much harder than any single-target attack.

 

I might work some of the suggestions given by OP in, but they don't really apply universally. Hell, even my one doesn't - Fulmin, for example, hits AoE and is on an ammo recharge so not having ammo mods does jack for it. Longer reloads, slower fire rates or just plain old gimmicks would likely be necessary on a case-by-case basis.

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I wouldn't Touch The Weapons... Because There's nothing wrong with them... Infact I might make them stronger just for Consistency's Sake...

What I would do however... Is lower the need for So much killing in most of the content in this game and change how Affinity Works.... Everything would be More Objective Oriented instead of KILL KILL KILL !!!....

That way the people who genuinely love AoE will continue to use them while the rest of us won't feel compelled to do this same....

Tune in Next Time for another episode of Lutesque, The Arm Chair Developer.

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24 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

remove iron skin/prime sure footed/etc  from saving you? (They would only prevent ENEMY/Environmental knockdowns?

After 400 Days ?

Are you kidding me ? 😱

?imw=1024&imh=576&ima=fit&impolicy=Lette

37 Days Left To Go BTW...

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

Remove AOE weapons from the game entirely?

😐...

26 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

nerf them like was done to the simulor/sonicor/staticor so they are little more than MR fodder?

😐...

27 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

Leave them as is?

Now you have my attention 😛 !!!

28 minutes ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

Reduce (increase?) all their max fire rates to 3+seconds regardless of mods?

I'm not on board with Homogenisation.

26 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Reduce damage until it takes as much time for a tonkor to kill 10 mobs at once as it takes to kill 10 mobs one at a time with a tiberon.

Interesting Change...

 

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5 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Some things like dispensary, ammo packs and Dig can still replenish ammo, possibly at a reduced rate.

This feels pointless because if you reduce the rate Ammo Restores work... players would just increase ammo restore Spam to compensate....

 

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I would have never introduced them to the game in the first place. 

But if we are talking about how to solve AoE I'd do the following.

1. Convert current primary and secondary slots into simple weapon slots. Equip any two ranged weapons you like.

2. Convert the archgun slot into a true heavy weapon slot.

3. Go through all weapons, both normal and archguns, those seen as heavy can only be equipped in the heavy weapon slot, no matter if they are secondary, primary or archgun.

4. Add a heavy weapon slot to Necramechs and Archwings aswell.

5. Heavy weapons would rely purely on a CD system regarding how often they can be used, much like how archguns currently work.

6. Normal archguns would have their CD removed and be treated as normal weapon overall.

7. Adjust all AoE guns so their uptime is roughly the same across the board when it comes to ammo etc.

 

 

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I wouldn't change them. Warframe is not a PvP game so you don't have to use AOEs at all. The game isn't so difficult that they're must use items and, to be honest, teams can be as creative and organized with their strategies that AOEs shouldn't be necessary. Plus, there's no need to top each other in kill counts so there ahould be no complaints about that either.

I like the knock back mechanic and the fact that a valuable slot has to be used to offset it via a very capacity-hungry mod. 

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59 minutes ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

Make some enemies take reduced damage from AoE, bombard, Heavy gunner, corpus tech, Comba, just the special units cause fodder should die quickly to AoE just like in other games.

+1

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I have a couple of ideas of which only one is technically a nerf. Others are mechanical changes.

1) Remove ammo mutation , or apply a cool down to its effect. Now you only get 1 magazine of your selected weapon every ... 20 seconds or so. Same applies for ammo pizza.

2) Create a flash bang like effect in addition to knockdown , would be fun to see players keep running into walls or off the map :p

3) Add punchthrough up to blast radius such that enemy bodies can obstruct damage to those behind them. 

4) Create enemy units that can redirect explosives (which are usually projectile based ) back to sender and cause full damage. Have "diffuser" enemies that simply makes all explosives duds. Like the Corinth alt fire if you don't manually detonate it.

5) Instead of a fixed damage in a radius , make the damage like an omni directional shotgun blast. With shrapnels acting as pellets. 

 

I don't actually want to directly nerf the weapons themselves , but I would like it to be a real risk vs reward decision to use them.

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25 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Everything would be More Objective Oriented

Pretty much this.

Disruption is an example: find a key carrier, kill a key carrier —> put the key in —> find a demolyst, kill the demolyst. "Normal" enemies are of no consequence.

 

Just now, 0_The_F00l said:

2) Create a flash bang like effect in addition to knockdown , would be fun to see players keep running into walls or off the map :p

Not bad! I like that (:

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vor einer Stunde schrieb (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg:

It is completely out of control - like it was back in the miragulator/tonkor spam days years ago, now just replaced with bramma/ogris spam.

  • Bring back self damage? (which sucked because you'd get killed everytime your teammate jumped in front of you, or your pet, or some ai, or the projectile would clip a wall, or the AOE was so big on any indoor map you were cooked)
  • remove iron skin/prime sure footed/etc  from saving you? (They would only prevent ENEMY/Environmental knockdowns?
  • Remove AOE weapons from the game entirely?
  • nerf them like was done to the simulor/sonicor/staticor so they are little more than MR fodder?
  • Leave them as is?
  • Reduce (increase?) all their max fire rates to 3+seconds regardless of mods?
  • Other?
     

1 cant do because of the chroma / trinity abilitys
2 well there have to be so many things removed and expierent players just learn how not to hit yourself that often or cc the enemys while doing it so basicly not risking anything
3 could be dont but that would require a way to replace the mastery exp
4 then we can do 3
5 can be done would not be that bad since warframe is still a coop game it is not like the players take away things by following a meta
6 well so a hikou would have 3 stars a second sounds unbalanced to a bramma
7 maybe remove change the Primed Firestorm / Primed Fulmination and let the players use the normal ones so it would decrease the range of the weapons while maintainig the single target dmg
i mean i dont get it why they where introduced in the first place

vor 12 Minuten schrieb FoxLove:
vor 13 Minuten schrieb 0_The_F00l:

2) Create a flash bang like effect in addition to knockdown , would be fun to see players keep running into walls or off the map :p

Not bad! I like that (:

well most of the people useing the weapons already dont need to see anything else than the hud and if you flash the hud that would basicly lead to the same point that we can put the weapons in a bin also flashing lights are not a good idea in the first place i guess i could lead to problems in the code on who to flash
and leveling the weapons would be a nighmare for a lot of people if they dont want to do it by exp share where other players killing would be a good thing

Edited by Keiyadan
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Personally I'd have their damage reduced based on the number of enemies hit by a single aoe with some minimum damage cap. While still dealing more damage in total it would make killing individual enemies slower and buff units like Ancients/Eximus more of a threat. But still being able to kill isolated enemies all the same.

Making a new ammo type like "Launcher Ammo" and having that unaffected by ammo restoring methods might also work. But that risks any weaker weapons in that category becoming unusable due to awful ammo economies.

Also reintroducing self damage wouldn't do anything other than make casual/lazy players stick to frames with invulnerability abilities. As self damage was a genuine non-issue to anyone that paid any attention to where they were shooting instead of mindlessly spamming.

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6 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

well most of the people useing the weapons already dont need to see anything else than the hud and if you flash the hud that would basicly lead to the same point that we can put the weapons in a bin also flashing lights are not a good idea in the first place i guess i could lead to problems in the code on who to flash

Make the flash black. Cameras got disabled or whatever. No need to explain.
Obv, map shouldn't be visible.

Knockback is already coded in. I mean, you can't knockback another player, so it shouldn't be an issue.

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6 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

well most of the people useing the weapons already dont need to see anything else than the hud and if you flash the hud that would basicly lead to the same point that we can put the weapons in a bin also flashing lights are not a good idea in the first place i guess i could lead to problems in the code on who to flash

 

Only the one who set off the weapon is affected by the flash, same as the knockback.

Even the hud would be covered by the flash . You would be surprised by the amount of obstructions even in a straight corridor that can stop you if you don't jump over it while aiming properly (I tried a map only run once ) especially in a 3D environment with height and depth.

As to the flash, Have you not done a few eidolon hunts ? Can you genuinely say those are an ok source of flashing lights ?

I am perfectly ok with a blackout instead of a white out as well.

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15 minutes ago, FoxLove said:

 

Disruption is an example: find a key carrier, kill a key carrier —> put the key in —> find a demolyst, kill the demolyst. "Normal" enemies are of no consequence.

And yet I hate this game mode so much 😭....

 

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vor 8 Minuten schrieb 0_The_F00l:

Only the one who set off the weapon is affected by the flash, same as the knockback.

Even the hud would be covered by the flash . You would be surprised by the amount of obstructions even in a straight corridor that can stop you if you don't jump over it while aiming properly (I tried a map only run once ) especially in a 3D environment with height and depth.

As to the flash, Have you not done a few eidolon hunts ? Can you genuinely say those are an ok source of flashing lights ?

I am perfectly ok with a blackout instead of a white out as well.

well i have no big problems moveing around useing my hikous and also ogris since most of the times the problems even are there when i see the corridors
of course i hunted eidolons but what can i say except they felt for me barely noticeable so but thats again a part of the options the players choose

 

vor 10 Minuten schrieb FoxLove:

Knockback is already coded in. I mean, you can't knockback another player, so it shouldn't be an issue.

well the thing is things like that have happend, knockdowns killing players not that it happens often but i can happen
even in the last weeks i killed mission targets or myself with my own weapons so self dmg is still in the game
it is only hard if a mission that took time fails because of it

Edited by Keiyadan
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I'd leave it alone. There isn't any reason to nerf it other than the fact it's a meta now.

Ignoring the fact that other weapons are still just as good at doing the job as explosive weapons. I personally use the Kuva Quartaak and the Tenet Flux Rifle as well as my Kuva Zarr on barrage. So, there isn't really any reason to nerf AoE weapons, just let people enjoy the game as they want.

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1 minute ago, Keiyadan said:

well i have no big problems moveing around useing my hikous and also ogris since most of the times the problems even are there when i see the corridors

I have no idea what you are saying. Do you never look at the centre screen when you are moving ? 

I guess you don't have any problems with the flashbang then and you will be just fine. I do have 4 other changes mentioned.

4 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

of course i hunted eidolons but what can i say except they felt for me barely noticeable so but thats again a part of the options the players choose

So why are you complaining about flashing lights ? 

6 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

well the thing is things like that have happend, knockdowns killing players not that it happens often but i can happen

Rubbish , if it happens it's a bug or it's a radiation sortie.

That's how radiation sorties work.

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12 minutes ago, Keiyadan said:

well the thing is things like that have happend, knockdowns killing players not that it happens often but i can happen

Still, I think that this is the best solution (besides new game modes).

Nerfs will cause outcry.

 

12 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

And yet I hate this game mode so much 😭....

Awwwww ):

 

Edited by FoxLove
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