How would you (if you were a designer) handle AOE weapons?

[Azamagon]

Hmmm... tough design issue for Warframe.

But well, I would probably do two huge changes (both at the same time) to ammo:

1) AMMO REGEN

• Spare ammo now regenerates over time. The strongest AoE weapons (Bramma, Zarr etc) would regenerate very slowly, but spammy single target weapons would regenerate relatively quickly. If you shoot nonstop, you WILL definitely run out of ammo - no matter what weapon you are using. But it should hold far more true for the AoE weapons; The stronger and wider it hits, the magnitude of regen-time goes up drastically.
  • (Think along the realms of 10 seconds to generate 1 Bramma ammo. But just 1 second for 5 Grakata ammo. That's an ammoregen difference of 50x - it needs to be at least this huge to make some form of an impact on ammo economy).
• Ammo mutation mods (and maybe Carrier's ability?) is changed to simply boost the passive ammoregeneration, but by a rather small amount.

2) AMMO DROPS

• Ammo drops are still a thing, but there's only two types now; Primary and Secondary
  • How much each ammodrop restores for a weapon is balanced from weapon to weapon, but generally speaking: Those with low reserves, get small amounts per restore.
• Killing enemies causes them to sometimes drop ammo - but for the weapon you are currently NOT using; So if you kill with Primaries, you get a chance for Secondary ammo. If you kill with Secondaries, you get a chance for Primary ammo. If you kill with other things (Melee, Abilities), the drops are randomized, but also drop less amounts.
• Kills with Finishers (Mercy, or any other kind) gives much GUARANTEED ammo drops (and health/energy)? Related Mercy mods would BOOST these amounts (rather than simply give a chance for it to happen)

3) AMMO RESTORES

Other tools (like Dispensaries and Pizzas) would probably need adjustments too, but I think those point 1 and 2 would make for a decent start.

 

The intent behind these changes are basicly:

1. Ammo is a resource you must manage. By careful weaving of weapons, abilities and finishers, you might never run dry on a weapon, ever - which means it HOPEFULLY makes it less braindead to play, and a bit more strategic - without nerfing your POWER.
2. Even if you might run dry on both your primary and secondary - don't worry, the regen is there to make sure you don't get stuck in an unwinnable situation. In the same vein, ammoregen is also there to not punish bad ammodrop RNG too much either.
3. Finishers would have a genuine role in replenishing "fighting resources".
4. With AoE weapons potentially being more limitted in spammability, singletarget weapons (especially if they have good regen/sustain) might become more popular. It even might make current underdogs more useful too, further potentially breaking the currently rather stale meta.

And... that's the gist of my ideas.

 

 

 

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Please God no. DE doesn't have the attention span to keep the mod pool up to date. Look at even Shotguns, they still don't have stuff like Internal Bleeding or Fulmination, and even look at how long it took for them to get recoil reduction, a silencer, etc... Then there's archguns... *shivers*

No. If anything all non-unique shotgun mods should be removed and we should just have 'primary' mods.

'Shotguns' have precisely 4 weapons with any kind of blast radius , compared with the, what, dozen, two dozen AoE 'Rifles'? Likewise, discounting variants, there's only three impact-focused shotguns - four if you consider the Plasmor since that procs impact a lot. They generally work well in their established roles without these mods, so why would DE need to add them? Besides, not every weapon type needs every mod type - access to specific, thematic mods or upgrades can elevate a weapon class.

I would say that having more weapon class distinctions would allow for far more interesting and thematic mods than what I would estimate to be 80-90% of guns using the same two lists of options ('primary' for rifles and 'secondary').

1 hour ago, KitMeHarder said:

Except that is for other games. Games where you can't jump 2 stories into the air, or go intangible on demand. Warframe has no need for (or the ability to support) mechanics of PvP and linear story games.

If this was the case, why would DE keep feeling the need to circumnavigate the core gameplay or implement absurd EHP increases whenever they want to make anything remotely interesting?

Even other action RPG's like Deep Rock Galactic, Monster Hunter and Destiny don't seem to struggle with their playerbase deciding that AFK-ing through solo mode content is the best and most fun way of playing.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, SplineDrive said:

• reduce max ammo
• reduce ammo drops
• longer ready time
• self damage & unavoidable stagger

(like most other games)

People play warframe because it's not like most games. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

28 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Even other action RPG's like Deep Rock Galactic, Monster Hunter and Destiny don't seem to struggle with their playerbase deciding that AFK-ing through solo mode content is the best and most fun way of playing.

I get the feeling that the idea that “AFKing is the most fun way to play this game“ isn’t exactly true considering the amount of “Game’s too easy and boring”. DE does struggle with some players being forced to AFK, both in single-player and multiplayer, and there’s nothing the player can do about it

edit: I get that taking it chill and goofing off with extreme power can be pretty fun at times, mind

[Lutesque]

32 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Assault, Capture, Defection, Hijack, Interception, Mobile Defense, Rescue, Sabotage, Spy, etc... and any bounty/event that mimics them.

Did you not read the part of me Changing how Affinity Works....

Those modes I. Their Current State don't Meet the requirements...

34 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

The parkour system is, and it is when it's used to elevate and enhance the killing. Do stuff like sorties, SP incursions, and Aya farming efficiently, it's very different. Or when you redid the star chart on steel path... that much is too much.

So only the movement that you care about matter and everything else is Wrong 🤨 ?

34 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Same as you then. Otherwise what are you doing in a game like this?

I tolerate the killing... I don't enjoy it like you do.... 

36 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

For you, maybe. But probably not for most endgame players, and those missions don't meet the specifications I asked for.

Well you weren't Asked by me so.....

[SplineDrive]

22 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

People play warframe because it's not like most games. 

People play warframe for all sorts of reasons.

[Loza03]

9 minutes ago, (NSW)Greybones said:

I get the feeling that the idea that “AFKing is the most fun way to play this game“ isn’t exactly true considering the amount of “Game’s too easy and boring”. DE does struggle with some players being forced to AFK, both in single-player and multiplayer, and there’s nothing the player can do about it

edit: I get that taking it chill and goofing off with extreme power can be pretty fun at times, mind

I think a lot of the people who say 'Game's too easy and boring' are the people who recognise that AFK strats are the most the most optimal, or at least close to - which to many players, optimal = fun. However, the players who say that the game is too easy and boring don't want the most optimal playstyle to be that. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Slightly better rewards “on hit” for higher-tier non-AoE weapons are needed that require aiming.

I like my Kuva Ogris with Nightwatch Napalm and Heavy Caliber that is an inaccurate mess of a map-canon.  But if you nerf it, it’s just a Torid…

[(NSW)Greybones]

15 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

I think a lot of the people who say 'Game's too easy and boring' are the people who recognise that AFK strats are the most the most optimal, or at least close to - which to many players, optimal = fun. However, the players who say that the game is too easy and boring don't want the most optimal playstyle to be that. 

What’s an example of the most optimal playstyle not being easy and boring? My mind jumps to games like Destiny where I hated how players hid in a specific corner of the raid map, or did things like push that first Hydra boss off a cliff in Vault of Glass.

The most optimal path was to cheese it, but I didn’t raid with randoms because I wanted to do some fighting. At some point a line had to be drawn by me personally; even though the game had the options, I chose to not take them.

That said, I get the desire to optimise. Part of what kept me playing at the start was seeking optimization, and then what’s kept me playing is the un-optimized experience (Steel Path can be a good one to test myself if I feel the urge to really optimise again)

edit: Regarding Destiny strats, it was kind of funny/fun to cheese it the first few times, but the novelty wears off 

[bonelesswater123]

Make all the weapons have a spin attack so you can put distance between you and the enemies

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Hmm, at least for my own specific personal tastes... More enemies like Nox, across more factions. High Damage resistance relative to level, unless you destroy the weak point. Won't always be the glass face mask, different faction, different weak points etc like a Nox... but its the knees. Knee high Nox if you will. Corpus guy, metal face plate, metal knees, but weak thighs. Thigh High Nox. Infested? weak leg, and arm. Mismatched Nox. 

You could try eventually brute force with AOE, but people with more accurate/precision weapons will deal with them far faster, make this more apparent with enemy scaling as well. Try to incentivise weapon variety/diversity without punishing. AOE weapons, I think at this point, are just that way for farming/speed/efficiency reasons. I get it. 

[KitMeHarder]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

'Shotguns' have precisely 4 weapons with any kind of blast radius , compared with the, what, dozen, two dozen AoE 'Rifles'? Likewise, discounting variants, there's only three impact-focused shotguns - four if you consider the Plasmor since that procs impact a lot. They generally work well in their established roles without these mods, so why would DE need to add them? Besides, not every weapon type needs every mod type

That's just a flawed logic. "Only add mods if there are enough weapons that benefit from them". No, you plan for the future and you keep a consistency. Not only do the weapons you listed have the potential to heavily benefit from said mods, you even low balled the numbers. Shotguns with a blast radius alone include the Phantasma, Bubonico, Cedo, Astilla, Corinth, and probably more if you get nitty gritty. You also didn't mention there's only 15 shotgun families, compared to 60-70+ ones that use rifle mods. Percent-wise, seems a bit even, or potential in the shotguns favor (by your standards) for which deserve the mods.

And I see you didn't mention the lack of recoil reduction, a silencer, or a serviceable crit chance mod. How did the lack of those increase diversity? If this was a different game I might agree with you, but it simply doesn't fit with Warframe.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

If this was the case, why would DE keep feeling the need to circumnavigate the core gameplay or implement absurd EHP increases whenever they want to make anything remotely interesting?

Even other action RPG's like Deep Rock Galactic, Monster Hunter and Destiny don't seem to struggle with their playerbase deciding that AFK-ing through solo mode content is the best and most fun way of playing.

How do you think they 'circumnavigate' it all the time? Cause to me they just make adjustments so you nuke things in a different way (buy more stuff, grind for longer). Look at Orphix Venom, Voidrig did that event as good or better than any Warframe. Liches? I literally kill level 5 ones in a sub-second, I just use a different weapon than I normally do (no, not with Banshee).

• HM - Is effectively a boss only game, not comparable. And this is a talk about AoE, not AFKing.
• Destiny - Is balanced around PvP. As well as the boring game design of "everyone hold hands and look 46 degree to the left" to make the boss vulnerable.

[KitMeHarder]

48 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Those modes I. Their Current State don't Meet the requirements...

Yours or mine? Because they definitely don't meet mine, that's why I listed and criticized them.

49 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Did you not read the part of me Changing how Affinity Works

That's not the problem, it's how you get the reward/loot.

50 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

So only the movement that you care about matter and everything else is Wrong

No. You say this game is praised for it's movement, but momentum-less Omni-direction spam for mission after mission after mission is not what people praise. That movement is fine and I like it, but it being the most effective way to clear 25-35% of the game is not. Not to mention how little variety there is in that department, especially once you factor in hardware.

53 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

I tolerate the killing... I don't enjoy it like you do

1. It's a game
2. It literally has War in the title
3. You literally can not do the full content without it. How do you play ESO, survival, granum void, exterminate, etc..

No offense, but get over yourself.

[Loza03]

3 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

That's just a flawed logic. "Only add mods if there are enough weapons that benefit from them". No, you plan for the future and you keep a consistency. Not only do the weapons you listed have the potential to heavily benefit from said mods, you even low balled the numbers. Shotguns with a blast radius alone include the Phantasma, Bubonico, Cedo, Astilla, Corinth, and probably more if you get nitty gritty. You also didn't mention there's only 15 shotgun families, compared to 60-70+ ones that use rifle mods. Seems a bit even, or potential even in the shotguns favor by your standards for which class deserves the mods.

First, thank you for the reminder of the Bubonico, it isn't listed with all the other shotguns for some reason.

It's less flawed when you remember that, of the 5 guns that have AoE potential (unless you count the Sobek with the Acid Shells augment? Would that even be affected?), most of them are also fighting for best in class anyway, and the Bubonico also has ammo regeneration and wouldn't be affected by my proposed changes anyway.

On the 'there's only 15 shotgun families', this presents an excellent point! There are more weapon families with AoE potential, even when you discount the shotguns, than there are shotguns. Counting the shotguns, and there's more than enough to make them their own family of weapon.

And shotguns probably could use more mods, but this entire thread is erring dramatically close to derailing the topic anyway. This is, after all, a thread about AoE weapons, not shotguns and mod families!

17 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

How do you think they 'circumnavigate' it all the time? Cause to me they just make adjustments so you nuke things in a different way (buy more stuff, grind for longer). Look at Orphix Venom, Voidrig did that event as good or better than any Warframe. Liches? I literally kill level 5 ones in a sub-second, I just use a different weapon than I normally do (no, not with Banshee).

Eidolons and Orbs are immune to all abilities (the other big AoE spam option in WF) and require you to use a completely separate type of weapon - amps and archguns. A fair bit of content is parked behind the open world minigames which, sure, use Warframes and gun mechanics but aren't the classic horde shooter. Railjack, at least in theory, puts you into a space shooter. And Necramechs don't have access to 90% of the game's arsenal, and you aren't even given the option to use it.

Plus, there's also how most of the 'mobile defence' gamemodes (which, lets be real, are more and more frequent these days) aren't dependent on the player's input to be completed beyond the 'keep enemies from touching the objective'. You don't actually have agency on how those mission types progress beyond the bare minimum of 'X needs to avoid dying'. In other words, as long as that box remains checked, you do not need to engage with gunplay, movement or your build. Even regular defence missions can be sped up depending on your skill in either the action or RPG aspects of the game. Mobile Defence missions are still Warframe's core gameplay, but require BY FAR the least interaction with that core gameplay. And a lot of Warframe's recent game modes have made frequent use of this format.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

7 hours ago, (XBOX)Tucker D Dawg said:

• Bring back self damage? (which sucked because you'd get killed everytime your teammate jumped in front of you, or your pet, or some ai, or the projectile would clip a wall, or the AOE was so big on any indoor map you were cooked)
• remove iron skin/prime sure footed/etc  from saving you? (They would only prevent ENEMY/Environmental knockdowns?
• Remove AOE weapons from the game entirely?
• nerf them like was done to the simulor/sonicor/staticor so they are little more than MR fodder?
• Leave them as is?
• Reduce (increase?) all their max fire rates to 3+seconds regardless of mods?
• Other?

- bringing back self damage wouldn't do much more than annoy people, and while Primed Sure Footed can always be used, a lot of people, myself included, still use caution with AoE weapons so as not to get knocked back, because that's a good few seconds of not delivering DPS. 

- Iron Skin should protect you, since it costs energy to cast. Primed Sure Footed should not, as it's a mod anyone can use, and total immunity from enemy knockdown is still worth the slot IMO.

- removing AoE weapons entirely is probably the worst option: not everybody likes hitscan/projectile bullet guns and it reduces overall weapon variety. plus we're in a Sci-fi universe, crazy AoE weapons are a mainstay. launchers can be fun, and they do have a right to be in the game; they just shouldn't be thing that players feel like they have to choose 99% of the time because nothing else is viable.

- nerfing usually just draws more ire, and people will still continue to flock to whatever AoE weapon is the most efficient out of them all.

- leaving them as is solves nothing, and I do think it needs solving.

- reduction of fire rate seems fair, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy guns like Acceltra and it would make me a little sad to lose that fun.

personally my favorite option would be to just treat the launcher as a Heavy weapon: make it use heavy ammo so you have to get a few kills on heavy enemies to replenish your ammo. players won't be able to use them all mission long, but they will still be able to use them in dire situations when there are groups of enemies; think of it like this: in Battlefield, you can pick up a rocket launcher, but you wouldn't waste it on one person; you'd wait until an enemy tank appears and use it on that, because that's what it's really meant to do, and you'd be removing a much bigger threat: so instead of using an Ogris on one or two crewmen, you'd use it in a room full of Crewmen, MOAs, Combas etc.

also, by limiting how much they can be used, it wouldn't matter how powerful launchers are: they could be buffed to an even more insane degree, and still be balanced because you can't break the game by spamming it all the time.

so yeah, convert them to run off heavy ammo like Archguns, but the player starts with full ammo, and obviously the launcher still takes the Primary slot. it might also encourage players to think about their loadout more: you'll want a good secondary for if you use all your Launcher ammo at the start for example!

[Leqesai]

Weapons with AOE have been poorly implemented for a long time. Many conventions need changed.

 

1. Launchers need major restrictions on ammo. 2 to 3 shots max on most launchers. No ammo scavenger mods allowed.

2. Firing launchers needs to have cooldown period which is unaffected by mods.

3. Weapons that are not technically launchers with AOE damage need major nerfs to the AOE portion of their damage and major buffs to the physical contact damage.

4. All AOE damage should have LOS restrictions.

[Tiltskillet]

Some combination of several different things:

 - Fewer enemies overall, although heavy and eximus units could go up somewhat.  (Probably the most meaningful single thing that could happen, and also the most unlikely.)  Rewards adjusted upwards to compensate. 

 - Some form of AoE mitigation applied to certain units.   Possibly also a new eximus aura, or conversion of the Guardian aura to an AoE protection that can spawn for any faction.

 - An ammo overhaul, among other things involving a new ammo conversion stat, which would determine the amount of ammo gained from pick ups, mutation, scavenger, etc.   The stat would tend to be much lower on AoE weapons.

 - Long term stagger immunity--including ability sources--mostly converted to stagger reduction along the lines of Cautious Shot.   Stagger immunity would still be achievable, but would either be short term (like Rolling Guard) or involve stacking multiple sources.  I'd also like it if the stagger dodge maneuver was a little easier to pull off and much quicker.

 - Some amount of body punch through made innate on most precision weapons.  Current PT mods given an additional bonus to damage based on number of enemies hit in a line.  (i.e., first target, no bonus.  2nd target, x bonus.  3rd target, 2x bonus.)

 - More incentives for headshot kills and consecutive headshot kills through mods and arcanes.  And maybe baseline too.  For instance, headshot kills could give a short term affinity buff. 

 - A new game mode that is most efficiently done with precision weapons.    A good mechanic for this is having npcs or structures to protect that can be damaged by ones own weapons and abilities.  Ideally it wouldn't be impossible to do with AoE, just inefficient.

And whatever happens, continuing review after that.  It's easy to imagine scenarios where launchers fall out of favor only to be replaced by beam weapons, or melee, or AoE abilities, or gas snipers.  Or,  I don't know,  the Torrid, lol.   I, for one, welcome our new Vigorous Swap Javlok Zymos Gale Kick overlords.

[Danielw8]

I make a new arcane for single target weapons where you link damage (pseudo aoe) 

Rubico  can deal 2 mill slash damage in a single hit, but who cares you cant play a steel path survival solo using rubico.

QOL additive offtopic: when you aim with snipers, you can still see your hud

Its not a damage problem, its not a ammo problem (carirer prime exists), its just the style of the game: Very fast, very intenstive, with a lot of enemies around you. You just cant deal it with a smg 

[KitMeHarder]

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Counting the shotguns, and there's more than enough to make them their own family of weapon.

There's not really any logic in this. You might be poking fun, but I could pick any parameter I want and say "there's enough of these to make a new family of mods for". "Oh look, there are enough bows now that they can only use there own mods." "Or all the semi-automatic primaries need there own mods." It just goes on forever.

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

This is, after all, a thread about AoE weapons, not shotguns and mod families!

Yes, but you proposed a new mod family for AoE weapons, and the sad state of shotguns and archguns were some of my counterpoints.

Of which you still haven't brought up how the state of Blunderbuss for this last half-a-decade has improved the game. Or even touched archguns.

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Eidolons and Orbs are immune to all abilities (the other big AoE spam option in WF) and require you to use a completely separate type of weapon - amps and archguns.

You don't use AoE abilities on bosses in the first place... and both of those weapon types have AoE. How you nuke bosses is how fast you kill them, not how many you kill at the same time.

And I think my description fits, where we still nuke them, DE just forces us to do it in a diverse way. Making the game more fun, grindy, and forces lazy people to spend money all at the same time.

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Railjack, at least in theory, puts you into a space shooter. And Necramechs don't have access to 90% of the game's arsenal, and you aren't even given the option to use it.

Yet there are still hordes in space, and Necramechs still have access to some of the best AoE in the game. Again, we still nuke, these mechanics just make us do it differently and play the game longer.

I'm here just talking about nuking and AoE. Whatever you've pigeonholed Warframe's classical mechanics to be, so that you can say this is different, doesn't matter. Whether I press one button and nuke 20 fighters with Seeker Volley, or one button and blow up 8 grineer with an Orgis, it's still Warframe nuking. Just because it's in space doesn't mean the devs are "circumnavigating", when the results couldn't be more contradictory.

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Plus, there's also how most of the 'mobile defence' gamemodes (which, lets be real, are more and more frequent these days) aren't dependent on the player's input to be completed beyond the 'keep enemies from touching the objective'.

Very boring game design IMO, that's why you see people complaining about it so much. Boring me to death so I stop playing or caring is not the route. Forcing me to nuke diversely, the disruption mode, or a well made rouge-like mode is.

43 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Mobile Defence missions are still Warframe's core gameplay, but require BY FAR the least interaction with that core gameplay. And a lot of Warframe's recent game modes have made frequent use of this format.

So we agree, it's bad. IMO they either add these modes because the person in charge at the time is unimaginative, or is just focused on psychological tactics to better milk money out of the players. Unlike the stuff I've talked about above, a timer removes a player's control, it doesn't just limit it. You can still nuke a MD, it just does nothing. That's not circumnavigating, that's a full hard stop, and at that point it's not a game anymore. Simply going through the paces, as if in example you couldn't capture a king in chess before the 30min mark, no matter how good you are.

[quxier]

3 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

The issue with this is it completely has to change the horde system, which means DE has to rework (calibrate, test, deal with opposition, deal with strategic whining, redo to shut them up, then receive counter counter feedback, redo that, etc).

Completely? Nope. It it will be lot of changes.

However, I think change on that scale is needed. Maybe not what I've proposed but something "big". There is barely enemy that requires you different strategy (that's not annoying like Nully).

Quote

Also, what values would you use to apply the attack strength? As of right now, a non elemental weakness strike to kill a heavy enemy takes quite a few blows already. I think we'd have to be careful to not upset the flow of the game for the sake of tankier enemies.

All I can say... it should be tested. I don't really know how much do they want us to e.g. Heavy gunner level 100. I've been thinking about some kind of percentages (of some value) instead of damage for weapons (in general). So e.g. weapon X deals 20% damage. Heavy gunner requires 100% damage. So it means it needs 5 shoots to kill HG. By having Viral proc it enemy has 1/2 of HP => 50% so it needs only 3 shots. You can then scale enemy health by level.

It's lot of work but I prefer it instead of nerfing weapon by making it harder to use (Exodia contagion nerf).

5 hours ago, RLanzinger said:

• The knockback should also disturbe you Vision and Audio (Like some electrical / radiation effect in RJ on HUD) and being stackable.

Sure! Obstruct our vision because we all love seeing one color. If I don't see enemies why should I use such weapons...

[DrivaMain]

My Answer? Kill the horde shooter aspect of Warframe. Significantly reduce enemy density while making them stronger overall. We don't need to nerf AoE weapons, we just need to discourage using them by not making the gameplay demand them all of the time. However, this suggestion will forever change the game.

We already seen this in action in Railjack albeit it was there due to technical and performance limitations. Playing those missions makes me doesn't feel forced to use AoE weapons all of the time. 

[(NSW)Greybones]

Tch. So many players asking the game to be re-designed because they can’t stop optimizing their own fun out of the game, and instead expect the game to police their own actions for them by impacting those who don’t have a problem with (in this case) AoE.

Honestly I probably wouldn’t have a problem if the game was redesigned; a new experience might be interesting. But I feel like I’m looking at a bunch of Efficiency Addicts who can’t stop themselves from doing the boring thing, and then want to affect others with their inability to treat the game as a tool to be used to have fun, instead of a life’s purpose to complete or a means of measuring personal skill in maximum optimisation at the cost of entertainment.

Even suggestions where certain enemies are tougher have a glaring flaw in that some players (perhaps the same ones thinking it’s a solution) will just figure out how to treat the tough enemies as just more fodder in the easiest way possible

[RLanzinger]

I've read a lot of idea :

Some Good (thks to Tiltskillet) :
... more of the stagger, more AOE : My own idea, it's evidently good :p
... AOE mitigation : a peculiar punch through or a Heavy unit resistance to such damage 👍
... a shotgun's pellet mecanic : good idea but this will be hard on low config, laptop and switch players SO ... not a big fan

some bad :
... remove AOE weapon : this will never happen !
... bring back self damage : this neither !!!
... Change ammo type : it's already a punition with "rare sniper ammo pool"

Some very bad :
... Nerf them all : I'm against the nerf politics !!! it's like Security-by-Obscurity, ignoring a problem does not solve it !!!
... no more horde of enemies 🤢 : Where the point of being a Space Ninja ???
... AoE mitigation : Make explosives inert when hitting Corpus bubbles, Environement/units jamming explosive ...

31 minutes ago, quxier said:

Sure! Obstruct our vision because we all love seeing one color. If I don't see enemies why should I use such weapons...

The problem dear quxier, it's already hapenning : My last missions with some Kuva bramma players made me see more GIANT PINK CLOUDs* that bob marley ever seen ... Obstruction of vision is already the problem !!! and this IS them main reason why I post !!!

(*) I like the pink color but not the cloud obstructing my view

[Megalomaniakaal]

1 hour ago, quxier said:

Viral proc it enemy has 1/2 of HP

🤔

11 minutes ago, RLanzinger said:

Some Good :

some bad :

Some very bad :

Missed opportunity to make a 'the good, the bad and the ugly' reference there...

 

[Loza03]

37 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

There's not really any logic in this. You might be poking fun, but I could pick any parameter I want and say "there's enough of these to make a new family of mods for". "Oh look, there are enough bows now that they can only use there own mods." "Or all the semi-automatic primaries need there own mods." It just goes on forever.

I mean. Yeah? Bows are another category that arguably should be getting their own mods, especially since they're A: historically lacking and B: already get an exception to the rule. DE already acknowledges that Bows need different modding than rifles by virtue of the fact that Bows get more benefit from fire rate mods. If Bows need better fire rate because fire rate is far more important for them than for other weapons, AoE weapons can reasonably be given worse ammo mods (or have them witheld entirely). 

The principle of the matter is 'AoE guns should have a poor ammo economy to make up for the fact they hit harder than single-target ones'. However, it's less confusing and allows further precision tweaks through if the category as a whole gets given their own mods instead of bloating ammo mutation descriptions with exceptions and slight differences. 

45 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yes, but you proposed a new mod family for AoE weapons, and the sad state of shotguns and archguns were some of my counterpoints.

Of which you still haven't brought up how the state of Blunderbuss for this last half-a-decade has improved the game. Or even touched archguns.

Then your counterpoint, I take it, is not actually a counterpoint? It's a criticism levelled at DE, not at my proposal.

Simply put, I'm not interested in 'DE have been ignoring shotguns, therefore they will ignore this'. This thread is about proposals of how the individuals posting would deal with the problem, not DE.

 

49 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

You don't use AoE abilities on bosses in the first place... and both of those weapon types have AoE. How you nuke bosses is how fast you kill them, not how many you kill at the same time.

And I think my description fits, where we still nuke them, DE just forces us to do it in a diverse way. Making the game more fun, grindy, and forces lazy people to spend money all at the same time.

It's not in a diverse way though, it's in a very particular way. Now, I say this liking Eidolons, mind you, but they are designed in a way that does not engage with the majority of the game's established systems.

50 minutes ago, KitMeHarder said:

Yet there are still hordes in space, and Necramechs still have access to some of the best AoE in the game. Again, we still nuke, these mechanics just make us do it differently and play the game longer.

I'm here just talking about nuking and AoE. Whatever you've pigeonholed Warframe's classical mechanics to be, so that you can say this is different, doesn't matter. Whether I press one button and nuke 20 fighters with Seeker Volley, or one button and blow up 8 grineer with an Orgis, it's still Warframe nuking. Just because it's in space doesn't mean the devs are "circumnavigating", when the results couldn't be more contradictory.

Again, Necramechs don't use 90% of the game's pre-established weapons, nor do they use the movement systems and the melee/gunplay hybridisation that Warframe has frequently advertised.

Railjack has a lot of enemies, but using the Railjack and a Warframe clearly isn't the same thing? Saying that just because there's a lot of enemies and abilities and therefore they are the same is a false equivalence - like saying that Warframe's on-foot gameplay is identical to Monster Hunter's Bowguns and Gears of War because they're both third person games with shooting. There's similarities, yes. There's also a shedload of differences that makes the experience different.

 

Either way, it's also not really accurate to the original point. That being that many of Warframe's newer modes - ESPECIALLY those deemed as being for 'advanced players' strip away a large chunk of the player's existing arsenal and the 'core' gameplay. In turn, this typically winds up preventing the player from using the absurdly overpowered combinations that go against the design wisdoms that I'm a proponent of. They are often replaced with weaker versions, at least until player complaints result in them getting access to equvilents. Consider how originally Railjack used a far more restrictive energy system and imposed that players need to respect the overheats of their weapons, and then the revisit gave players access to the long-busted Warframe energy economy and introduced a 'reload' system that rendered the overheat mechanic effectively moot. Or how Necramechs originally had very limited energy to fuel their incredibly powerful abilities, and then Orphix Venom gave them a means to recover energy quickly and easily.

 

(We both agree that Mobile Defence sucks, and only disagree on reasoning, so I don't think continuing that line of debate really contributes anything to the discussion)