DE should just go ahead and put out rules for how the game has to be played.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

10 minutes ago, Corvid said:

Honestly, my reaction was more amusement than anything.

Mostly because I recently became aware of another instance of someone using that speech and applying it to a video game (or rather, the comic adaptation of one), and it was just as absurd then.

My view is quite simple: Nerfs happen, and when they do, most people just adapt to the new normal. Miragulor users switched to Maimerax, then to Bramma, and so on. Acting like each balance pass is somehow equivalent to rounding up the users of its target and removing them from the game is... well, I find it hard to take such an idea seriously since most of said players are still here. If anything, the bigger issue is players becoming bored with the game, which can generally be attributed to a lack of engagement with the gameplay, which is the exact issue that changes like Veilbreaker's are trying to solve.

 

Yeah I figured it was something like this. 

A little while ago, I saw some Warframe players on Reddit use the "Never Forget" line, with a lot of dog whistling, to heavily imply that DE was basically terrorising players with their nerfs/changes. At first I thought they were tongue in cheek, but some were serious. It was kind of surreal. 

The only solution, is that we need Banksy to create some anti-DE art, to show them, their destructive and terroristic ways need to stop! 

[AegidiusF]

Il y a 6 heures, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

People are having fun but all DE can do is tell us we're not having fun the right way

That's a good point and I agree. It's very weird that on Devstream 162 Pablo said that "A big pillar of Warframe is let players do as they will" and then, on Devstream 163, he announced the AoE and Ammo nerfs, and, on Devstream 164, things might get even worse...

 

Il y a 6 heures, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

They won't address that the reason these metas exist is because most of the alternatives are utterly useless in comparison. 

Yes, and it come from Pablo himself, this time on Tennocon this year : talking about the way he reworks warframe's abilities he said that players don't like to use single target abilities because "Warframe is a multi-target game". And to make single-target abilities be more used, they are buffing them and buffing the less used augment mods. To make Mesa's 1st be more used he buffed it. It would have been useless to nerf Mesa's 4th to make her 1st be more used. I can't understant why they are taking opposite ways to deal with similar problems.

And the real problem is that the game almost forces the player to use multi-target weapons and abilities. It's not our fault, it's the game itself.

Il y a 7 heures, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan a dit :

Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind but they won't adjust the grind or the weapons.  They'll only nerf the methods people use to go faster.

I have been thinking about this : people use multi-target weapons to quickly complete a mission in order to farm/grind faster. In a game based on grind/farm it's normal to act like that : you have to do the same mission many times, over and over again, to get some stuff. Nerfing AoE will make farm/grind longer. I'm really asking myself if the goal of thie recent changes is in fact to nerf the AoE "fast farm/grind" efficiency, to make it harder to get new stuff and making farm much longer. I don't know if this is the goal, but I'm really asking myself.

[NightmareT12]

2 minutes ago, SiriSnugglebottoms said:

On the contrary, I'd argue you're greatly disrespecting the poem by being so restrictive in what it is supposed to teach. Everyone should care more about things that don't directly affect them.

Look, I can easily understand the "I like something and it sucks someone else comes and steals my fun" to sort of write it, but here's two things:

1) Rebecca has been VERY open, and I believe many people have been on many places pretty open to, as to how AOE disrupts the gameplay, especially other players'.

2) It's unbelievable that you can even suggest anyone would be disrispecting a poem written to reflect on how the silence of other is equivalent to allowing opression and genocide of people by taking it at face value and not something magnitudes less important. There is no way on this green Earth anyone who understands the very basics of argumentation can take this seriously, and I'm not stating this in bad faith, but rather because there's something to learn here and I'd dare say it's not me who has to.

And I say this because there have been changes on other departments that have touche on things that matter to me a lot, but I could never, ever think of using such an allegory. Ever. It very much denotes a lack of understanding, context, proportionality and teleology about the issue such text arises.

Again, I don't say this in bad faith. There's argumentation to be had and DE are the very first to want feedback, otherwise they wouldn't have opened a specific subforum for it, but you have to understand why reaching such extremes is an issue to pursue stating "The update makes me feel bad because I invested time and money into a playstyle I like due X or Y and the direction you're taking to try to protect other users isn't giving me something back from all this investment in return". Which dare I say, is probably more helpful for them.

[EdinaMonsoon]

3 hours ago, --END--Rikutatis said:

They have, OP. Read the news and the patch notes. The rules are: no easy automation (afk farming style); no ruining or disrupting the other players experience; no option so overpowered it renders everything else irrelevant. 

Meta AoE launchers did all of those. So get over it. If braindead afk farming with a launcher spamming explosives nonstop at the floor is the only way you can have "fun", it's time to look for a new game. Rebb seems far less lenient than Steve was, and I'm loving it. 

If you are willing to budge an inch and adapt a tiny bit, you can even still spam explosives, just requires a very tiny change in build and playstyle. Basically use ammo mutation and don't keep your finger pressed on LMB nonstop for the entire mission and you should be fine.

this

end thread

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I'm assuming this is a thread in response to DE wanting to nerf AoE more?

I don't like the changes they're proposing (self damage and/or return to stagger and knock down.)

I feel like by having to put on ammo related mods and having to strip armor is already enough of a loop to make AoE weapons in a decent spot.  As I've mentioned before both of these proposed changes won't reign in AoE anymore than DE would like as it will just push people to use frames that either can benefit from self damage or really just ignore it entirely and same with stagger.

The change to the headshot multiplier was a great incentive to make other weapons stand out and I feel like that's the direction DE needs to go if they want to force diversity.  Which I say force specifically because that's what harsher penalties at this point is attempting to do.  If AoE "needs" another hit for balance sake (even though they can't headshot anymore) I'd rather they add damage fall off for splash to a significant degree.  That and/or make it so direct hits do more damage but shooting the ground does less damage.

All in all I'm personally uncomfortable not only with the very obvious changes of forcing diversity but also that they're already willing to hit AoE again after such a short time.  I can't believe they've gathered enough data already to decide wether further nerfing is needed or not.

[bad4youLT]

1 hour ago, trst said:

And a mutation mod effectively doubles that as you now get to use the ammo type your weapon doesn't use. Also, if I'm not mistaken, there is all of six weapons which have a pickup count of 1 being the Kuva Bramma, Kuva Orgris, Kuva Zarr, Lenz, Proboscis Cernos, and the Aegrit. And these are the only ones which have a max ammo count below 10.

And according to the wiki there's only nine more weapons which have a pickup count below 10 which also make up most of the other weapons with a notably small max ammo capacity.

None of those weapons have problems killing enough enemies to maintain ammo counts unless you're wasting ammo to kill individual enemies if you slot mutation. And even then some of those can still do that and be perfectly fine.

Something tells me you havent played long SP,Arbis,KS,AH with AoE post ammo nerf.

In steel path I had to relay on nekros to keep my proboscis cernos ammo consuption and still runned out ammo.

In my first archon hunt second stage was hostage defense,my kuva ogris run out of ammo before first round ended.

1 hour ago, trst said:

 

Unironically, skill issue. If you're hitting yourself with your own explosions that frequently then try standing farther back from enemies (they're guns after all, not melee weapons) and try actually utilizing the mobility we have and fire from the air.

But even then what they described on the devstream wouldn't even have problems with those situations. With the damage being a percentage of your health and reduced by falloff (numbers mentioned were 75-25% max hp). As well as either having it reduced by hitting allies or just can't hit them at all to begin with.

Don't give me that nonsense of "skill issue" , warframe gameplay fast paced,frantic and highly chaotic.

You cannot "git gud" to randomness that happens during play sesions,other team mates or their pets can at any time suddenly jump into your firing range,mobs spawn in front of you , door close on you because of mobs or other players.

This isn't some "skill issues" situtation,its painfull expirience from the time self damage was a thing, I many other players learned not to use AoE because randomness kills you.

Even Pablo suggestion of caping damage isn't great either, sure first shot wont kill you but what about second? 

Or the fact that you will be left standing barely alive in front of mobs ready to shoot at you?

Don't forget that there are AoE weapons that are fully auto, have their explosions bounce randomly or have massive blast radius even with out blast range mods like Trunma.

[BR31]

Agreed with the op . 
I just hope that they will deal with the problem and its roots , not the symptoms .
Nerfing with content is the best way, imo . 
I'd love to watch the stats of people , who use aoe launchers in archon fights, eidolon hunts,
spider hunts, sp cascade , disruption , etc. 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

When DE brought out Regal Aya the first time. I was skeptical, because the value didn't seem right. The absence of Platinum in particular. The argument was that Endo was as valuable, except eh... It felt anti-consumer to myself, because whilst Regal Aya offered advantages over Prime Unvaulting, Platinum to many, myself included, is way more valuable than Endo. I can buy fashion with Platinum. Can't do that with Endo. Effectively, it seemed that to get the same general advantages, many players would be encouraged, to double up... and say buy both a Regal Aya bundle and some other sort of Bundle that came with Plat. Doubling how much they might otherwise spend. Instead of the idea, of just buying one bundle. So I was pretty critical, and made arguments I felt were fair and reasonable, including addressing arguments I thought were poor (some argued that Plat wasn't important to them, so not a big issue... which is valid for them, but won't necessarily ring true to everyone). 

However, importantly, a lot of people who were critical of DE over Regal Aya, also made really bad arguments, and some were aggressive and threatening in an inappropriate personal way. Making it way too personal, talking about DE employers by name, calling for people to be fired etc Gross behaviour. Which many people rightfully called out. 

Player base doesn't have to be divided into "People who love and support DE" and "People who hate and criticise DE", but for some reason, some forum users seem to frame it that way. I remember seeing one particular user interaction between two posters, where one explained they hated and resented Warframe, and the other asked why they continue to play it and post in the forums? The other user said, because they were addicted and couldn't quit, and they had to right to trash the game, as its just their opinion. I thought that was... sincerely sad. Like, no one should have to dwell in that level of addiction and negativity. 

Anyway, its generally not good to either frame yourself or others as either a blindly loyal white knight figure, or the opposite, or to automatically group yourself into tribal groups around relatively superficial traits around a game. For a few reasons, but for one? It makes it really easy to undermine your position and make your group look silly. 

Like, in this thread. Lets say a troll wanted to make look "AOE users" look bad, you can employ a tactic similar to poisoning the well, relying on associating fallacy. You say something especially ridiculous in defence of AOE... and watch as people who are defensive/apologists to AOE agree with you and defend you... even though your goal and intent was to make them look silly and absurd, by saying something goofy and getting them to agree. An actual reasonable player who might happen to like AOE weapons, won't blindly defend or agree with the silly statement, and take issue with it, ideally... 

The same way, when people who veered into inappropriate personal attacks over Regal Aya, were called out for such behaviour, by many who were critical of Regal Aya. 

Just because you agree with something in a video game, like a weapon type, shouldn't mean in deeper conversations you automatically side with them. There are more important distinctions to make. You know, like basic decency etc. Especially since not all forum users are good faith actors/proponents. 

 

[Drachnyn]

Normally I would say DE should give us more missions/enemies that call for slow firing single target weapons like snipers. If DE mainly designs the game in a way where aoe is king, then of course aoe will be king. Unfortunately damage attenuation is rearing its ugly head in that regard. When major bosses get damage attenuation it murders snipers which should by rights be the most suited weapon against enemies like archons and liches.

The worry I have is that DE will once again take the sledgehammer approach to balancing like they did with the ammo changes for battery weapons. They should not treat every aoe weapon the same just because it technically has a radial effect on it. A tombfinger is not the same as a zarr.

Nerfing the best aoe weapons wont make single target weapons good because they are fundamentally undesireable with how DE creates enemies and missions. I hope DE continues to improve on their mission design, zariman bounties are a good step but archon hunts have unfortunately been several steps back. 

The bigger problem than DE telling us how to play a mission is telling us how long that mission should take. They need to have the guts to let people fail in taking down archons because of a lack of damage, not try to railroad everyone into the same fight length with damage attenuation. A system that tries to invalidate modding in a game all about modding.

[Lutesque]

52 minutes ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

 

The change to the headshot multiplier was a great incentive to make other weapons stand out and I feel like that's the direction DE needs to go if they want to force diversity. 

Hold Up

In case you haven't Noticed... Warframe was designed and rewards you for Killing multiple Enemies.... What Exactly do you get from increased Headshot Damage to A Single Enemy ?

Nothing... Especially Since you won't even need the Headshot In Most Cases....

Attempting to Actually Capatilize on this Change will actually make your Experience Worse since it takes longer to Line Up Those Headshots than it does to shoot Whichever Part is Larger....

This Is Why We Melee Guardian Eximus Units instead of trying to Shoot Inbetween the Rotating Shields.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Knight Raime said:

I can't believe they've gathered enough data already to decide wether further nerfing is needed or not.

Quite Frankly it doesn't Matter... DE does whatever they Want....

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

9 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind but they won't adjust the grind or the weapons.

I've been saying this for years.

The only reason AoE is meta is because the game has turned into a horde shooter/speed run simulator. Single target guns will never be as popular as AoE or melee because when there's a room with 20 enemies in it and you're farming relics you're not going to stop and pop each enemy in the head, you're going to use whatever is fastest, whether that be an AoE weapon, an AoE nuking ability or a melee weapon with range and a grouping ability. Speed is the name of the game and people will always gravitate to what is faster because of the way the game is designed, regardless of how much you nerf AoE into the ground its not fixing any of the causes. People will just move on to the next best nuke and continue farming as fast as possible.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

9 hours ago, ReddyDisco said:

What has been evident with player feedback is that DE shouldn't listen to it and do what they feel is right

Seriously, it's just getting old at this point.

I literally haven't run out of ammo once outside of the Archon fights since the changes, in regular play or SP, and then I just used a Melee for five seconds.

It's also pretty apparent DE feels the same way, since they're thinking of more nerfs, not buffs. Which makes sense since I'm still seeing a lot of AoE spam on certain weapons. It's not as common, but it's still obviously there.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

Yeah,let me bring my AoE weapons into none arbitrations,steel path,archon hunts,kuva survival,long endless fissures,bellow lvl 150 mobs who's EHP is less then 2-3 rounds worth of ammo to not have ammo issues with ammo mutation.

 

You kinda lost me there.

[bad4youLT]

12 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

You kinda lost me there.

Before ammo nerfs I could easily keep my ammo stocks in high level end game content , I can't do that anymore because of abysmal ammo pick ups even with ammo mutation .

That's however not an issue in low level none end game content there you don't need more one round of ammo to kill a single enemy of any type allowing you to recover your lost ammo .

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 hours ago, zuraja said:

The problem here is not aoe.  The problem is that Warframe's matchmaking puts MR30+ players into the same fissures as people who are literally incapable of putting a full build into any of their equipment.  And by literally, I mean they don't even have access to the content that gives them some core mods, don't have the credits or endo to max out what mods they do have, and quite possibly have never even owned a forma or potato.

This is a part of the game's environment. One of their mottos is "we all lift together". And they even have events where people can use plat to buy new players items for something in return.

Every other game does separate players and that's ok. But this also isn't some game where you have 50 raids all separated by MR and gear. It's an easy farming game with an emphasis on community or whatever. 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

1 hour ago, bad4youLT said:

Before ammo nerfs I could easily keep my ammo stocks in high level end game content , I can't do that anymore because of abysmal ammo pick ups even with ammo mutation .

That's however not an issue in low level none end game content there you don't need more one round of ammo to kill a single enemy of any type allowing you to recover your lost ammo .

Then stop using a zarr and switch to kuva tonkor or tenet envoy that have more ammo, use energized munitions, or run protea with her dispensary and anchor.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

10 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

And how exactly is that evident?  There's no counterpoint there.  You aren't adressing anything, and not a single one of you has.  Your only arguments have been "dev's game, they can do what they want.

People have already addressed it. Over and over and over and over and over again. WHY DO YOU THINK DE MADE THE CHANGES IN THE FIRST PLACE!! Players shooting at their feet, rushing through the game, randomly shooting anywhere and everywhere, visibly afk while a clone shoots then quickly misting to the extraction while not even trying to understand or care what the team has decided, are all reasons why the nerfs happended and should've happened. DE even thoughtfully tried to create a minimal set of consequences but they didn't expect people to whine about why the power can't always be left on without drawbacks like running low on ammo. Even still, those drawbacks had mods that could easily offset them but players ALSO don't want to sacrifice their "ultimate builds" they got from youtubers. None of this is hard to understand. 

In regards to your "DE should tell us how to play" crap, not a single warframe is lacking the power to wipe anything off the map, including steel path, and I can't believe you went this far off scale against DE when most of these whiney players ARE BEING TOLD HOW TO PLAY A WARFRAME FROM A YOUTUBER. Yureli, apparently, was the weakest frame to use but, interestingly enough, I easily worked an SP survival for an hour and a half, which is my limit for playing any video game. If a warframe is still considered weak after this long of consecutive play, then the entire tier system is absolutely stupid. 

This is beyond foolish. Joke or not, a lot of these players made Warframe into a single frame, single weapon game and can't handle when that combo requires more work than standing still? Holy crap man.

[bad4youLT]

16 minutes ago, (XBOX)Upl0rdYT said:

Then stop using a zarr and switch to kuva tonkor or tenet envoy that have more ammo, use energized munitions, or run protea with her dispensary and anchor.

I don't use zarr , proboscis cernos and kuva ogris are my go to weapons but the problem is they kill by status stacking which requires spamming said weapons .

[(XBOX)ONI LawIiet]

11 hours ago, (XBOX)TehChubbyDugan said:

Just put out rules and set builds and loadouts and tell us how you expect us to play so that we can finally figure out what fun is.  Obviously we can't do that on our own because they're doing everything they can to herd us into and away from things.  

 

Loki with all movement and defensive mods, with the wall latch set so I can hide up in the rafters away from the scary level 15 enemies that I'm not supposed to kill too fast?  Latron, right?  Can I at least use the prime?  Don't worry, I still have my damaged serration mod.  And impact damage, I can out that on so that I'm not using the bad ol viral slash meta,  right?

People will say troll post, but for the mods:  I'm trying to make a point.  People are having fun but all DE can do is tell us we're not having fun the right way.  It's their game, not ours, and we need to play it how they want.  They won't address that the reason these metas exist is because most of the alternatives are utterly useless in comparison.  No one but a new player or a bored meme artist is modding for puncture over slash.  But they won't adjust anything to make alternatives better.  Single target weapons are extremely slow and slow down grind but they won't adjust the grind or the weapons.  They'll only nerf the methods people use to go faster.

 

They'll listen to players crying they can't keep up in a meso fissure or universal medallions in conclave, but they won't look at mountains of negative feedback or bad reviews.  It's not obvious there's a specific way we're supposed to play.  Just go ahead and spell it out already. 

they did

the Kahl missions

[Angtynur]

I get your point and DE will keep working on balancing the weapons as they've said during the last stream. Self damage is being studied. Actually I am in favor of making ammo restrictions less severe while adding self damage to AoE weapons. It sounds more logical to me. This is a sci-fi, fantasy game, but the enemy's rocket launcher can blow you up, right? So why would you not blow yourself up by launching rockets and grenades at your own feet? Considering how hi-tech the world of Warframe is, walking around with no ammo is more unrealistic than exploding yourself with nukes IMO. And it's a looter-shooter. You should be able to shoot, but with the minimal tactical requirement based on the weapon you're carrying.

Find a balance for AoE ammo between what it used to be and the current system, but bring back the sef damage. Improve the damage for precision and single-target weapons. Then it becomes a logical matter of tactical choice. You're a space ninja going into a mission. You are not Duke Nukem. so be tactical. If you are going to a mission that calls for combat in close quarters, prioritize precision/single-target weapons. AoE should be for open areas or at least you should move around  and make the shot when the detonation is in a safe distance from you. Now, if you still want to be lazy and launch missiles all around you in small areas because "screw tactics, just give me all the loot fast", you should blow yourself up. 

[(XBOX)Lord ChibiVR]

2 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

I don't use zarr , proboscis cernos and kuva ogris are my go to weapons but the problem is they kill by status stacking which requires spamming said weapons .

Oh yeah those weapons are definitely messed up. Now it's entirely weapons like zarr and tonkor that can kill the enemies in 1-2 shots. 

[(XBOX)Boghadir]

A Grendel rework that will probably nerf the niche he has when his entire ability spread is redundant on his 2 and 3 and useless on his 4 is almost as pointless as the Gara glass shield nerf post removal of Raids.  I rarely even use his other abilities because I use him like Inaros but with a better oh S#&$ button on Steel Path.  Which reminds me, several frames need modernizing still.  

Absolutely dogS#&$ balancing concepts and ineffective direction is why I'm no longer spending plat (and more time) on this game unless DE pulls its head from its ass.  

[TheRealDestian]

5 hours ago, xcrimsonlegendx said:

I've been saying this for years.

The only reason AoE is meta is because the game has turned into a horde shooter/speed run simulator. Single target guns will never be as popular as AoE or melee because when there's a room with 20 enemies in it and you're farming relics you're not going to stop and pop each enemy in the head, you're going to use whatever is fastest, whether that be an AoE weapon, an AoE nuking ability or a melee weapon with range and a grouping ability. Speed is the name of the game and people will always gravitate to what is faster because of the way the game is designed, regardless of how much you nerf AoE into the ground its not fixing any of the causes. People will just move on to the next best nuke and continue farming as fast as possible.

Exactly this.

As I said in another thread, if the devs want me to use a sniper rifle instead of a rocket launcher, the enemy spawn patterns need to be such that a sniper rifle is at least as appealing of an option, if not more so.

If they throw hordes of enemies at players, players will always gravitate toward the best solution for dealing with those enemies, especially when hordes of enemies are more dangerous the longer you leave them alive and shooting at you.

Again, it's all about creating circumstances in game in which every weapon type is appealing and has a place where you want to take it into a mission.

[AzureScion]

9 minutes ago, TheRealDestian said:

Exactly this.

As I said in another thread, if the devs want me to use a sniper rifle instead of a rocket launcher, the enemy spawn patterns need to be such that a sniper rifle is at least as appealing of an option, if not more so.

If they throw hordes of enemies at players, players will always gravitate toward the best solution for dealing with those enemies, especially when hordes of enemies are more dangerous the longer you leave them alive and shooting at you.

Again, it's all about creating circumstances in game in which every weapon type is appealing and has a place where you want to take it into a mission.

But you can still shoot at hordes and AoE is still meta... they still die all the same because they didn't nerf AoE's damage numbers. What is the problem really?

[Letter13]

Thread cleaned some.

Let's keep it civil folks.