Warframe is a tragedy of wasted potential

[InTheFlesh00]

Just saying how I feel here, I know people enjoy this game and there are lots of good things, and I really like most of what's offered here too, just feel it's unenjoyable as is...

 

This game could be so good, but as it is there is 0 incentive to play, grind, unlock, level up, and get better myself as there is no long term challenge to the game of any perceivable kind, other than how much time and money you can spend on the game, which is not an end goal in itself for me...  Grind is good - perfect really - but I want to grind to do something with it...which currently there is nothing...  Warframe has 0 challenge!  (Blows my mind how this is a thing.)  So many cool mechanics, characters, weapons, cosmetics, everything else is so cool, but the combat is completely empty; enemies are so weak they crumble while posing 0 threat, death is incredibly easy to avoid (feels almost impossible to encounter sometimes), and even when you die it's so forgiving...literally nothing matters!

 

God I wish this game posed us a challenge, to give us something to actually do with all the cool things it has.  Simply adding challenging, well balanced, content would be such a game changer, prompting thoughtful application of the tools we have and seeing them working to their full limits...without it, in my opinion, playing this feels completely pointless, and completely not fun.  

(As an aside I recognize that adding things on the enemy/content side wouldn't be a fix on it's own but what I'm suggesting would require a rebalancing across most aspects of the game, however I think the current game's state is complete waste as is, so while that is drastic I still hold out hope for it or something like it, because of how much potential is wasted here imo.)

 

Again I know plenty of people play this game and more power to you I'm not criticizing enjoying it, I just really wish I had any reason to play it myself, but for these reasons don't have that.  Just throwing my opinion into the void on the off chance that challenge is ever added into this game so I can play it.

Edited July 12, 2023 by InTheFlesh00

[megastorm]

Anyone can claim a game to be boring. I find BAs boring but I don't piss on them before my exit. I don't think anyone in the world expect you to like everything. And it is perfectly ok to make this a second game while you make another game your primary, or quit all together. You hold that power. But what type of discussion are you asking for here? There is nothing anyone here can do to change your mind and you already know what to do.

[kamisama85]

Ok.

[PublikDomain]

The lack of challenge is an old, old problem for DE, and they know people want something done about it. It's just a matter of DE getting around to actually doing something about it.

"When people talk about “I’m bored of Warframe” typically it’s because it’s gotten too easy for them."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXzRlxny-v8&t=892s

We understand those seeking a different outcome will disagree with this choice, but ultimately we are not willing to further bolster AoE at this time. This is due to the increasing difficulty in creating content that serves to challenge the Tenno.   
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1286070-update-3090-prime-resurgence/

Players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1301906-the-warframe-2022-survey-results/

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-136-overview

How do you view "power creep" and the topic of player power VS game challenge?
[DE]Pablo: We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals!
The one downside of this, is that it's near impossible to make truly challenging content when Warframes can easily be immortal and deal ludicrous amounts of damage. Those two objectives are at odds with each other, and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1345625-digital-extremes-reddit-ama-summary/

I could dig up more quotes but you get the idea.

[Nekomian]

I feel like this is the eternal problem any live service game faces - how do you cater to newer players, more experienced players, and veteran players all with new content releases? This game has a bit of a power creep issue with newer frames and weapons outclassing many older ones, and I imagine if I started this game new in 2023 I'd probably find it really easy for most content.

They've tried to make more challenging areas in recent times, with Steel Path, Archons, and now with SP Circuit having enemies that can quickly scale up to even level 1000+, but it's really hit or miss because you have some frames like Revenant that can so easily cheese these missions and never die while other people complain the content is too hard with what they choose to play with.

A major rebalancing would be nice, but I'm honestly not sure what they'd do or how they'd provide challenges without making it feel artificial, like with the current damage attenuation formulas. Without bringing everything down in power significantly, there will always be disparity issues with damage between enemies and players and lots of issues that arise from it. I like the idea of this game being a looter shooter that you can handle a bunch of mobs at once, and maybe have a few tough to fight through (eximus are not that, it only takes like an extra second or two to kill them in most situations tbh), but with how it's hinged this game relies on enemies being easily defeatable for drops. Unless they rework this entire system in some way, it'll continue to be that tbh.

I find myself playing this game on and off with content releases, and I think that's to be expected; I'd like to see more content in the future catered towards veteran players too, but I understand that's difficult when they still need to release stuff that's applicable to everyone. I see frequent requests for stuff like raids (trials) to be added back, and I think something along those lines that's end-game and regularly cycling content works really well in live service environments (people still do WoW raids regularly, as an example) since it gives players something to do constantly (would need to provide some reward that isn't "buff to this weapon" too). With the existing regular content, I just don't feel any obligation to do sorties / kahl / archon / circuit stuff that often; they all offer things to make gameplay easier and provide buffs, but if you can already fight level cap enemies or have no reasons to do content outside of this, it doesn't make much logistical sense.

I think they tried to do something different with Duviri and break this mold, but ultimately at its core Warframe will continue to have this issue unless something is changed or something new is added. I'd love to hear over peoples' thoughts or solutions to this too, there's no one right or wrong way to approach this issue as it's quite complex with how many systems the game has.

[Voltage]

17 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:

The lack of challenge is an old, old problem for DE, and they know people want something done about it. It's just a matter of DE getting around to actually doing something about it.

"When people talk about “I’m bored of Warframe” typically it’s because it’s gotten too easy for them."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXzRlxny-v8&t=892s

We understand those seeking a different outcome will disagree with this choice, but ultimately we are not willing to further bolster AoE at this time. This is due to the increasing difficulty in creating content that serves to challenge the Tenno.   
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1286070-update-3090-prime-resurgence/

Players would like to see Trials come back, in addition to some more challenging end game content
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1301906-the-warframe-2022-survey-results/

https://www.warframe.com/news/devstream-136-overview

How do you view "power creep" and the topic of player power VS game challenge?
[DE]Pablo: We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals!
The one downside of this, is that it's near impossible to make truly challenging content when Warframes can easily be immortal and deal ludicrous amounts of damage. Those two objectives are at odds with each other, and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.
https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1345625-digital-extremes-reddit-ama-summary/

I could dig up more quotes but you get the idea.

What DE doesn't address is the expectation for this "easy mode" that they've nurtured in players to the point where a sizeable amount expect it to be this way. DE's created a target audience where meaningful application of mechanics and thoughtful loadouts to solve a problem related to finishing a mission isn't profitable. This was eluded to in the Reddit AMA response regarding Trials not being developed anymore: 

[DE]Pablo: "Hard to say if we’ll get a chance to resuscitate Trials, with our goals for the year it’s unlikely they’ll be coming back."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/12t842f/comment/jh21lte/

Heck, I'm in another thread right now getting blasted for suggesting they add Shard refinement, but only in a way where you still need to play and grind Veilbreaker content. I don't get it anymore lol.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Voltage

[Leqesai]

"Warframe is a tragedy of wasted potential"

I've heard this phrase used to describe deadbeat kids but this is the first time I've heard it to describe a video game.

 

[CephalonOlphus]

If a challenge is not provided, then make it self imposed. Make a goofy build for a frame and try bring it to level cap. test out weapon builds on eidolons, or be like me and focus way too hard on fashion.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

1 hour ago, InTheFlesh00 said:

Just throwing my opinion into the void on the off chance that challenge is ever added into this game so I can play it.

unlikely, DE have made it pretty clear by now that it's all about the power fantasy. which is fine since challenge is subjective and I reckon other games do challenging content better. 

[PublikDomain]

3 minutes ago, Voltage said:

What DE doesn't address is the expectation for this "easy mode" that they've nurtured in players to the point where a sizeable amount expect it to be this way. DE's created a target audience where meaningful application of mechanics and thoughtful loadouts to solve a problem related to finishing a mission isn't profitable. This was eluded to in the Reddit AMA response regarding Trials not being developed anymore: 

[DE]Pablo: "Hard to say if we’ll get a chance to resuscitate Trials, with our goals for the year it’s unlikely they’ll be coming back."
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warframe/comments/12t842f/comment/jh21lte/

Heck, I'm in another thread right now getting blasted for suggesting they add Shard refinement, but only in a way where you still need to play and grind Veilbreaker content. I don't get it anymore lol.

I dunno, man, DE just gives off so many mixed messages I don't even think they know what's going on. 84% of the players who responded in the 2022 survey said they want Raids back. That's almost 60,000 people saying "yes, we want Raids to come back". And then DE says "yes, we see that you overwhelmingly want Raids to come back we'll do that". And then later it's "sike nvm we're too busy with Duviri lol". They say how hard it is to make a challenge while constantly trying to make that challenge behind the giant backdrop of people saying they want them to make more challenges... but they also won't do anything about the thing they specifically say makes it so hard to pull off.

Until they do something about it, like the ammo and AoE nerfs. And they even weathered review bombs and actually didn't back down. Bravo! But then they let things slip through the cracks, do nothing about those things, and then undo all of the work they just did by powercreeping it all back anyways.

Quote

[DE]Pablo: We currently have no plans on what to plan

It's just wasteful. And it doesn't even need to be that way. Like in Pablo's response about balance:

Quote

[DE]Pablo: We have always embraced the power fantasy and the fun that comes from being godlike while fighting mere mortals! ... and for us the fun comes from the power fantasy, so that is our guiding principle.

And it's like, cool. I get it. I want to be godlike, too. But that's not the only way to make a power fantasy! That's not even a good power fantasy. It's a superiority fantasy. It's a bullying fantasy. It's mommy telling you how big and strong and handsome you are for squishing ants. It's fighting enemies that are so weak and powerless and inconsequential that they might as well be replaced with bowls of oatmeal for all they actually matter. It's playing a Betheda game with TCL and TGM and TCAI so you can play dress-up with the NPCs.

Or we could be gods fighting other gods, which sounds like a much more fulfilling power fantasy to me. And we could have that, and raids, and not have bad things like mastery fodder, and not need mechanics like Attenuation etc., and so on if it weren't for the appalling balance that DE themselves says is making it so hard for them to do anything.

[Genitive]

5 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

unlikely, DE have made it pretty clear by now that it's all about the power fantasy. which is fine since challenge is subjective and I reckon other games do challenging content better. 

I think there is place for more interesting mechanics in the game, whether it be bosses or some mission types. Orowyrms and orb mothers are pretty decent, I think.

Even if enemies themselves aren't that difficult, the game could be spiced up by additional objectives. I don't know, for example defending 2 targets at once, and you get a bonus when both survive. The game rewarding effort, imagine that,

DE could also reduce the amount of revives available to us, or at least make every steel path mission reviveless like archon hunts. The game is far too forgiving in this aspect and fewer revives would potentially make players more careful.

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 hour ago, InTheFlesh00 said:

Warframe has 0 challenge! 

One thing I think it may help to realize is that you are in the minority on that feeling.  The overwhelming majority of Warframe players are less skilled and more casual; folks like us who are both skilled and on the cutting edge of the gear grind often don't realize that because we generally play with and talk to other players like ourselves.  But for many, many players, Warframe is obtuse, opaque, and challenging.  It's a bit wild to think about how we're all playing the same game, but our game is a god-like power fantasy and theirs is a struggle to survive.

And considering that DE's bread and butter for paying the bills is tied to regularly releasing new content, I imagine it's very difficult to find the bandwidth to make content that would challenge their high-end players and thus be utterly inaccessible to the bulk of their player base.

I would guess that the high-end players who whole-heartedly like Warframe are the kind who aren't looking to be challenged; there's something else that draws them to the game, whether it's tinkering with builds, kicking back while farming all the things, or the simple joy of raining down fire on enemies who could never possibly oppose you.  Or perhaps something else entirely!

That said, I respect the way you feel, and I hope you can find something that brings you the challenge you're looking for.  If I were in your shoes, I'd take a bit of a break from Warframe and search for that challenge in other games.  You just might find it!  And then when you finally come back, with any luck the power curve will have raised and you might get a bit more challenge until you catch up.  Regardless of what you do, wishing you the best, Tenno!

[MouadSaqui]

Warframe is the perfect game for people who just want to blow stuff up, DE keeps adding new toys for people to break the game even more, the fact that they gave you the ability make the drifter run faster than volt in Duviri shows how DE want you to play their game, people seem to enjoy breaking the game and this will always be the case unless DE decides to rework the damage system from scratch, and even if they do people can still break the game with some bug so...

[Pakaku]

DE won't add challenge (well, besides bullet sponges and damage attenuation,) so you have to give yourself the challenge. Use the meta less often, check out fun weapons that aren't going to break the game in half, try out new Warframes, mod for the mission's expected difficulty level, give yourself some room to play with more niche utility mods, etc. I know it's tough letting go of power fantasy, but you'll probably manage to make it more fun for yourself in the process.

Edited July 12, 2023 by Pakaku

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

We're probably not gonna get challenge outside of quests where we get a predetermined loadout or character.

If you're looking for challenge with a touch of DE then soulframe is probably going to be your only hope, Warframe is way too casual, maybe even below casual.

[(NSW)Greybones]

My first question would be whether you were told there were things like mandatory mods and that the only thing to do is to more efficiently grind ever faster. Because those can figure into the perceived wasted potential of the game and can influence things like the percieved value of rewards and where the fight lies

Edited July 12, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

I would love harder content - even if that came with braindead implementations like damage attentuation - BUT and its a huge BUT - they would also have to do something they seem equally incapable of doing - and that is make the reward worth the effort - regardless of the effort is skill based or purely time based.
 

like putting 5k credit/4k endo in circuit reward pool - sure they bumped those up after complaints - but its still trash - there are still much better ways to get both credits AND endo.  or putting arcanes in normal variant arcane portals that are also in eidolon hunts - where you can get 10x as many in a fraction of the time without hunting and pecking for portals.  you can do a full tridolon hunt getting 3 arcanes in the time it takes to find and complete 1 arcane portal.

even things like do 10 nightmare missions for 4500 nw standing - who would bother? NW seasons last so long, you won't miss a reward from the base pool - you can almost skip paying attn at all to the weekly challenges and get enough points to get to r30. its just evidence they make no effort to tie reward to effort(time) or skill and just slap dash anything together.

 

[sly_squash]

For me the challenge comes from trading.  The base game is easy, but what's hard is figuring out precisely what to farm, when to farm it, and how much to farm of it in such a way as to minimize opportunity cost.  

[BroDutt]

4 hours ago, InTheFlesh00 said:

Warframe has 0 challenge! 

Numerous complain about random loadout in SP Circuit might beg to differ.

Sometime the limit of how you enjoy the game depends on yourself. I hate roguelike game. But since I started the game as normal multiplayer shooter looter and progressively build up my skill, I enjoy duviri circuit.

Never did SP endless mission more than level 400 and hate player that compare warframe based on viability for level cap. If I want to play sortie I play sortie, but rarely touch it.

It's basically depend on your mood. Right now Warframe is the only Live service game I play (oh I tried A LOT of live service game). When another live service game that fit my interest maybe I'm ready to leave warframe behind. But right now, if I'm burned out I just stop playing for a while and return in a couple of days. We do have real life right?

 

[trst]

Different strokes for different folks.

While the lack of "challenge" is a problem it also creates a benefit that WF has made use of over the years. That being that virtually nothing is mandatory in this game and returning players can pick up whatever they want. Instead of players being outright forced to go through an intended progression path in order to access anything new. Plus it creates the benefit (that a lot of players ignore for some reason) where almost all gear is viable everywhere in the game thus nobody really has to give up their favorite weapons or frames.

 

So I wouldn't really call it a case of wasted potential. But rather that the potential WF has capitalized on is something you're not as personally interested in. Which as much as I can sympathize with as I do miss "old Warframe" difficulty it's a simple fact that WF has long since grown into a very different game from that.

[SovietSilviu]

Mate game was good when it was out, i playd it first time when i was in highscool back in 2014, now made an acount and done all in a 2 weeks time, i mean all you need is lex with a broken build and revenant prime, you have the incarno for lex, wll you can solo even lvl 1000+, i only log in do the daylies, curse the 10 host bugs, then the other 100 random bugs, and log out, theres nothing there to do who wont get you bored after 40 min of play. 

[PR1D3]

5 hours ago, Genitive said:

I think there is place for more interesting mechanics in the game, whether it be bosses or some mission types. Orowyrms and orb mothers are pretty decent, I think.

Even if enemies themselves aren't that difficult, the game could be spiced up by additional objectives. I don't know, for example defending 2 targets at once, and you get a bonus when both survive. The game rewarding effort, imagine that,

DE could also reduce the amount of revives available to us, or at least make every steel path mission reviveless like archon hunts. The game is far too forgiving in this aspect and fewer revives would potentially make players more careful.

Bro, I wish they #*!%ing did that. I wish they would just nuke most of the star chart, have a fraction of the nodes, make most missions function like bounties (multiple tiers, bonus objectives, item drop on tier completion), maybe bring back of a bit of the objective layering that the old mission system in closed beta had, and update the current Mission sandbox. There's a few that were just one & dones (Assault & Hijack) & a few that probably need updates or combining (Capture & Defection). But honestly I don't see that happening. I'm probably one of the few players who like Spy, Railjack and fewer who would want Scarlett Spear to come back as some kind of Seasonal Event like Plague Star (even this event rotation has been spotty at best).

Speaking of all of that I don't get the desire for raids from the wider community. From the faction of players who want balancing and a tad bit more complexity, sure. That's well within the vein of what we profess for. The player base that wants a near self masturbatory power fantasy where they avoid any content that they can't blind bulldoze through why would they want a mode that requires more cooperation and a smidgen more finesse where the answer isn't to spam Kuva Ogris Napalm Watch shots at non stop? Most people can't even handle the newer Spy vaults and a few Rescue puzzles. And don't get me started on Railjack Co-Op.

5 hours ago, Pakaku said:

DE won't add challenge (well, besides bullet sponges and damage attenuation,) so you have to give yourself the challenge. Use the meta less often, check out fun weapons that aren't going to break the game in half, try out new Warframes, mod for the mission's expected difficulty level, give yourself some room to play with more niche utility mods, etc. I know it's tough letting go of power fantasy, but you'll probably manage to make it more fun for yourself in the process.

And like clockwork someone comes in with this stupid rebuttal. There's always one. For one, it's just maintains the current status quo of the clown fiesta that some people revel in. It maintains the game in their ideal condition. Second, it completely ignores the mission design issue of the game. That kind of content is few and far in between. The few instances we do get something, a particular part of the player base profess their hatred of the inclusion of the content. How it's not fair they're gatekept out of rewards cause of *insert some dumb excuse that really boils down to I DON'T WANNA!!*. Or worse yet, they say it's way too hard and to nerf it. So no. Fire that notion into the sun. Nearly everything revolves around the "screw balance" part of the community & when by some miracle DE throws us a bone of challenge you people complain and demand that its taken away from us.

[ReddyDisco]

8 hours ago, InTheFlesh00 said:

Just throwing my opinion into the void on the off chance that challenge is ever added into this game so I can play it.

If i wanted a challenge i'd play Elden Ring, which i did for half a year while on a warframe break, excited for the DLC which is soon to come. 

Warframe is a chill looter shooter, the game is only challenging as you make it, play without a minmaxed modded weapon or not using viral, it's a whole different game.

[awave]

You don't have to put mods on your weapon and frame. You don't have to use weapons. You don't have to use your abilities. If you want it to be more difficult, then you reserve the right to make it more difficult. Pick your poison and play solo and everyone is happy. It's not a competition so nothing is lost. I like difficult content and like discovering how to overcome it and succeed, but the state of the game does allow players to approach it how they see fit (except health tanking beyond a certain point ofc.)

 

In case it's relevant, OP is an MR3 with a 15% quit rate and 15 hours played and doesn't have a single Rank 30 frame. If this is their only account, they've barely played enough content to even explore what the game has to offer.

 

14 hours ago, SovietSilviu said:

Mate game was good when it was out, i playd it first time when i was in highscool back in 2014, now made an acount and done all in a 2 weeks time, i mean all you need is lex with a broken build and revenant prime, you have the incarno for lex, wll you can solo even lvl 1000+, i only log in do the daylies, curse the 10 host bugs, then the other 100 random bugs, and log out, theres nothing there to do who wont get you bored after 40 min of play. 

"done all in a 2 weeks time"

Why don't you have Paracesis?

 

If Revenant breaks the fun of the game for you by being too easy, then play a frame that is more fun for you and doesn't.

Edited July 13, 2023 by awave

[Pakaku]

1 hour ago, PR1D3 said:

And like clockwork someone comes in with this stupid rebuttal. There's always one. For one, it's just maintains the current status quo of the clown fiesta that some people revel in. It maintains the game in their ideal condition. Second, it completely ignores the mission design issue of the game. That kind of content is few and far in between. The few instances we do get something, a particular part of the player base profess their hatred of the inclusion of the content. How it's not fair they're gatekept out of rewards cause of *insert some dumb excuse that really boils down to I DON'T WANNA!!*. Or worse yet, they say it's way too hard and to nerf it. So no. Fire that notion into the sun. Nearly everything revolves around the "screw balance" part of the community & when by some miracle DE throws us a bone of challenge you people complain and demand that its taken away from us.

What do you expect to do when there will never be end-game? But hey, it's not my job to stop you from making yourself miserable.