So... Multishot. Again.

[Black_Cat_Jinx]

I mentioned this a couple of years ago and got no end of flack for it. But I'm going to mention it again.

I think that multishot is a bad design choice and should be limited only to weapons where it is thematically appropriate. Weapons that fire bursts, shot guns, etc. 

The balance in the game is built around the idea that just about any weapon you use is going to be using multishot for a 2.5x modifier of damage. And. Sorry. If your balance system relies on your chamber somehow firing multiple bullets at once, that is just not a good design choice. 

I know that there are damage arcanes now, not that I'm in that area yet, but just about every weapon in the game you're going to have your damage mod, lets say serration, one to two multi shot mods, that by it self means that basically those mod slots should be considered non-existent. If you absolutely, positively, have to put a mod on the weapon for it to function, then for all intents and purposes that mod slot is deleted. It becomes a problem with enjoyable gameplay that more often than not you're going to be running the same hand full of mods, out of idk hundreds of them, because those are the only mods that actually matter. 

If weapons need a 2.5 multiplier on them to function properly, then they should just remove the mods and increase the damage by 2.5 times and allow there to be at least some breathing room in weapon builds for variation. You can only forma a weapon so many times.

I get people are invested in it but it's just a bad design, 

[TeaHands]

I like that multishot can be used on every gun in this game, very rarely does a game let me turn a bow into a shotgun.

[UnstarPrime]

The problem you're running into is that you're trying to make sense of a nonsensical system.  If you step back a bit, you'll find that the same is true for just about every mod: none of them make sense.

And that's fine.  It's a magical card-based system that gives guns both strength and functionality that they shouldn't have.    Enjoy it for the stupid fun it is.

[ominumi]

Multishot doesn't functional have to make logical sense. The game just makes multishot happens. Do seperate real world physics with game logic. Less stressful that way.

[Pakaku]

It's just a damage multiplier, just like damage mods and crits are. Many weapons aren't going to perform great without damage-related mods, and asking to get rid of that is basically ripping out half of the entire modding system.

[Voltage]

Just wait until you learn that melee has "Multishot" too. 

[voltocitygel]

I think what the OP is getting at is not an issue with multishot as a mechanic, but more so the issue of “mandatory” mods. Iirc, this was mentioned by the devs at some point as possibly making damage mods like serration innate to a weapon, scaling as it ranked, and making multishot consume extra ammo but otherwise function as is (like it does for some incarnons). Then the community got upset about this (for some reason, I just saw potential for an extra mod slot), primed pressure point (or was it point blank? Can’t remember) was released, and they stopped talking about it. 
it does limit build potential that there is a flat damage mod you simply must put on every weapon. It’s just how things are for now. It’d be cool if they followed through on their original idea (we’d effectively get 1 extra mod slot per weapon at almost no cost), but it’s harder now that primed pressure point, primed point blank, and amalgam serration exist. 

[PollexMessier]

While I get what you're saying. and it is annoying. This problem will just skip to a new mod every time a call like this is made.
Remove multishot and raw damage and just boost the gun's other stats to match (side note there's no fully replacing multishot for status builds with currently available options so this is already a bad idea). Now it's fire rate/attack speed, and one of the other mods that give raw damage. So you knock those out. Now it's more elemental damage mods. Well there is a fix for that, increase a weapon's raw damage to match and have elemental mods convert a % of a weapon's damage to elemental instead. Well now you have reload and magazine size for guns, or combo duration and reach for mele. It just keeps going until eventually the only things left are so insignificant it doesn't even matter if you mod your weapon at all.

And after all that, you've effectively deleted a large amount of progression from the game.

Fixing this really requires a complete overhaul of the modding system. Weapons would have a base dps that can never be raised, All mods would have to have perfectly balanced negatives and positives. It'd just be an entirely different system. And lets be real, not one that DE is capable of doing without making the disparity between weapons even worse.

[Silligoose]

1 hour ago, Black_Cat_Jinx said:

I mentioned this a couple of years ago and got no end of flack for it. But I'm going to mention it again.

I think that multishot is a bad design choice and should be limited only to weapons where it is thematically appropriate. Weapons that fire bursts, shot guns, etc. 

The balance in the game is built around the idea that just about any weapon you use is going to be using multishot for a 2.5x modifier of damage. And. Sorry. If your balance system relies on your chamber somehow firing multiple bullets at once, that is just not a good design choice. 

I know that there are damage arcanes now, not that I'm in that area yet, but just about every weapon in the game you're going to have your damage mod, lets say serration, one to two multi shot mods, that by it self means that basically those mod slots should be considered non-existent. If you absolutely, positively, have to put a mod on the weapon for it to function, then for all intents and purposes that mod slot is deleted. It becomes a problem with enjoyable gameplay that more often than not you're going to be running the same hand full of mods, out of idk hundreds of them, because those are the only mods that actually matter. 

If weapons need a 2.5 multiplier on them to function properly, then they should just remove the mods and increase the damage by 2.5 times and allow there to be at least some breathing room in weapon builds for variation. You can only forma a weapon so many times.

I get people are invested in it but it's just a bad design, 

DE's balance is rather abysmal in various ways. You touch on an example, but the reality is they aren't all that interested in balance (exception for something that is too popular, which hurts their bottom line) and even if they were, they've shown themselves to be rather incapable of actually balancing various aspects properly (eg damage attenuation, decisions around damage changes for radial weapons, faction balance, elemental balance, "harder" boss mechanics, Overguard etc).

Despite my message, I would love to see better balance visit Warframe and certainly hope more people bring up these issues.

[UnstarPrime]

17 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

it does limit build potential that there is a flat damage mod you simply must put on every weapon. It’s just how things are for now.

Actually, that time has officially passed.  There is no weapon where you have to use a specific mod.  Primaries and Secondaries can get their flat damage from Arcanes, and Melee has had Condition Overload (and arguably Sacrificial Pressure) for years now.

Similarly, players now have a variety of choices for how they'll get their multishot, such as Conjunction Voltage and Primary Frostbite.  Mods are not necessary to get this stat.

These are all viable options that players can choose from when making their builds.

[NekroArts]

21 minutes ago, voltocitygel said:

I think what the OP is getting at is not an issue with multishot as a mechanic, but more so the issue of “mandatory” mods.

If that's the case then they need to cut out "thematically appropriate". It doesn't add any value to their case, just causes the discussion to be out of sync.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

And that's why we're glad overly strict people like you don't design games. 

 

[MrDugan]

2 hours ago, Black_Cat_Jinx said:

I mentioned this a couple of years ago and got no end of flack for it. But I'm going to mention it again.

I think that multishot is a bad design choice and should be limited only to weapons where it is thematically appropriate. Weapons that fire bursts, shot guns, etc. 

The balance in the game is built around the idea that just about any weapon you use is going to be using multishot for a 2.5x modifier of damage. And. Sorry. If your balance system relies on your chamber somehow firing multiple bullets at once, that is just not a good design choice. 

I know that there are damage arcanes now, not that I'm in that area yet, but just about every weapon in the game you're going to have your damage mod, lets say serration, one to two multi shot mods, that by it self means that basically those mod slots should be considered non-existent. If you absolutely, positively, have to put a mod on the weapon for it to function, then for all intents and purposes that mod slot is deleted. It becomes a problem with enjoyable gameplay that more often than not you're going to be running the same hand full of mods, out of idk hundreds of them, because those are the only mods that actually matter. 

If weapons need a 2.5 multiplier on them to function properly, then they should just remove the mods and increase the damage by 2.5 times and allow there to be at least some breathing room in weapon builds for variation. You can only forma a weapon so many times.

I get people are invested in it but it's just a bad design, 

The problem is that DE has already made their bed.  Mods are one of the ways that power is limited in early game.  If you lack endo, or mod drain then you can't have your serration or MS mod at max rank, especially while you're slapping forma on it.  Endo and "default" style mods are basically DE's way of keeping low level players from having high level damage.  It's a grind wall and a nuisance mechanic (mod drain being low for unranked weapons.) to keep early game slightly closer to balanced.  There are several low level weapons, like the Atomos, that would practically play the game for you if they automatically came with the damage that those mods provide.

There's also the issue of status.  Many weapons that aren't "thematic" with multishot derive a lot of their power from the fact that they can apply a ton of status through multishot very quickly.  Remove the MS, and you automatically nerf a ton of weapons, even if they get that damage boost, simply because you effectively lower their status rate by a huge amount.  That's how baked in these mods are.  You remove something like MS and you have to rebalance a ton of things just to be close to what players already have and have already invested in.

[Hobie-wan]

2 hours ago, Pakaku said:

It's just a damage multiplier,

It actually does create "more bullets". You can see this if you fire a bow with enough multishot that there will be multiple arrows.

Wait till the OP learns about health packs in games that magically give you instant healing instead of waiting months to heal those mortal wounds that nearly kill you or spare lives that let you get right back up after being blown to smithereens.

[(XBOX)zThulsaDoomz]

I can see how your original thread caught so much flak.  It's a video game, friend

25 minutes ago, Hobie-wan said:

It actually does create "more bullets". You can see this if you fire a bow with enough multishot that there will be multiple arrows.

Wait till the OP learns about health packs in games that magically give you instant healing instead of waiting months to heal those mortal wounds that nearly kill you or spare lives that let you get right back up after being blown to smithereens.

I legit lol'd at this ngl

Edited February 22 by (XBOX)zThulsaDoomz

[trst]

In that sense it would have been more appropriate if DE followed through with what (iirc Steve) said about how multi shot was supposed to work. In that it was originally meant to consume extra ammo thus effectively making it more of a fire rate increase instead of straight DPS increase.

Though the issue with that solution or just removing it entirely is the immense push back there'd be from the community. Even if you multiplied base damages to accommodate there's still the loss of extra status procs and overlapping AOEs. And even compensating for those losses players would still view the whole thing as a nerf even if effectively nothing changed.

 

Personally my issue with multishot is how boring it is to mod for. In that there's no decisions being made over how to include it in a build other than choosing to use the non-Galvanized mods vs the tiny handful of bosses that don't have trash spawns to stack the mod against. What we need is more mods like Split Flights where we can choose between more or less multishot with some other benefit/detriments to account for.

[Xzorn]

It's more than a Damage and Status rate multiplier issue at this point.

At some period DE decided to give all their guns variable accuracy. Hip-shot Vs Aim-shot. Without multishot the player will straight up miss shots that are perfectly aimed due to bullet deviation unless you're aiming. This isn't even a thing from old CS and obviously shouldn't be for a more arena speed shooter.

I used to Hp-Shot Scout and even with the machine gun, if you tapped the first shot was perfectly on target.
I imagine DE did this since they made recoil a virtually pointless stats since the addition of Exilus slots.

EDIT: Case in point. Un-modded Grinlok. A rifle. Hip-Shot Vs Aim-Shot.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited February 22 by Xzorn

[StrawberrySparrow]

4 hours ago, Black_Cat_Jinx said:

The balance in the game is built around the idea that just about any weapon you use is going to be using multishot for a 2.5x modifier of damage. And. Sorry. If your balance system relies on your chamber somehow firing multiple bullets at once, that is just not a good design choice. 

My guy, this game has a LOT more design problems than just multishot. Asking for Warframe to be designed well is like asking a Chimp to do your taxes.

All it boils down to is 'more damage good'

The days of meaningful build choices are long, LONG gone. Power creep has completely destroyed any chance of this being a game with ANY kind of depth at all. It's a casual big number simulator now, and has been for a while. I enjoyed nuking Steel Path for about a week, and now I'm not sure why I should play the game anymore. There's nothing to incentivize me coming back, except for the new shiny thing they'll drop every few months while neglecting LITERALLY everything else they have ever made in the game (I'm being slightly hyperbolic, but it really is a problem)

 

Side rant aside, Multishot will never be changed. Nothing anyone asks for will ever be changed, unless a huge majority ask for it. Doing away with Multishot? Nobody wants that. Nobody will ever want that.

 

[Tiltskillet]

16 hours ago, Hobie-wan said:

It actually does create "more bullets". You can see this if you fire a bow with enough multishot that there will be multiple arrows.

You can see it with most ranged weapons with enough spread / inaccuracy by looking at the shot pattern on a wall...but I'd guess Pakuku wasn't trying to deny that there are more projectiles, or any of the ancillary effects of having more projectiles.

Edited February 23 by Tiltskillet

[(PSN)robotwars7]

I think at this point DE have given up on multishot, and know that removing/reworking it would cause more problems than it solves. plus we all know how this community hates nerfs, which is exactly what weapons would be without multishot: nerfed, considerably.

anyway, it's 79023475723489575 bazillion years+ into the future, why shouldn't our weapons be able to magically fire multiple projectiles? this is something that militaries want IRL: look up some of the wacky prototypes of multiple barrelled assault rifles. (none of them work, but they show a clear desire for such things. why wouldn't you want more boolet?

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Hobie-wan said:

It actually does create "more bullets". You can see this if you fire a bow with enough multishot that there will be multiple arrows.

Wait till the OP learns about health packs in games that magically give you instant healing instead of waiting months to heal those mortal wounds that nearly kill you or spare lives that let you get right back up after being blown to smithereens.

Hobie-wan has won the month!

[Unus]

4 hours ago, voltocitygel said:

I think what the OP is getting at is not an issue with multishot as a mechanic, but more so the issue of “mandatory” mods. Iirc, this was mentioned by the devs at some point as possibly making damage mods like serration innate to a weapon, scaling as it ranked, and making multishot consume extra ammo but otherwise function as is (like it does for some incarnons). Then the community got upset about this (for some reason, I just saw potential for an extra mod slot), primed pressure point (or was it point blank? Can’t remember) was released, and they stopped talking about it. 
it does limit build potential that there is a flat damage mod you simply must put on every weapon. It’s just how things are for now. It’d be cool if they followed through on their original idea (we’d effectively get 1 extra mod slot per weapon at almost no cost), but it’s harder now that primed pressure point, primed point blank, and amalgam serration exist. 

  I wonder if they could keep Primed Pressure Point, Pointblank, and the like, by effectively making it an “upgrade” to the innate Pressure Point system? Have it stretch the damage multiplying bar a bit further when you apply it to a weapon, but have some manner of cost associated with it, perhaps eating into modification capacity, but, without applying as a mod?  I can happily agree with your multishot idea as is as well!

[DrivaMain]

Players lose their minds when their weapon deals 998 million damage instead of 999 million because of balance changes (I am exaggerating a bit here, but I am not that far off from the truth). The best we can do to increase build variety is introducing "variants" of "mandatory mods". Amalgam Serration is a good example of this. Sacrifice a little bit of performance, but you gain something else. 

[0_The_F00l]

I am firmly in the camp of the "reduce various damage multipliers to a manageable level".

Currently you have so many multipliers that you won't even be able to fit all of them in a single build without external help. Which by itself is ok , but not all multipliers are equal either making players have "mandatory" mods (I find the concept silly though)

From the time they changed the mods for frame stats , I have this distinct feeling that DE will be changing some of the mods for weapon stats as well (they even have a whole arsenal ui rework agenda if i remember right)

Maybe they will either merge the various multipliers or outright remove them.

[TARINunit9]

14 hours ago, Black_Cat_Jinx said:

 

I know that there are damage arcanes now, not that I'm in that area yet, but just about every weapon in the game you're going to have your damage mod, lets say serration, one to two multi shot mods, that by it self means that basically those mod slots should be considered non-existent. If you absolutely, positively, have to put a mod on the weapon for it to function, then for all intents and purposes that mod slot is deleted. It becomes a problem with enjoyable gameplay that more often than not you're going to be running the same hand full of mods, out of idk hundreds of them, because those are the only mods that actually matter. 

 

This has been a question for all of the nine years I have been playing this game. It's called "mandatory mods"

And frankly, basically all of us stopped talking about it around 2020 or so. The devs stopped trying to experiment with ways around it (last proposal was to make Serration automatic; lvl0 weapons would have a rank 0 Serration, lvl3 weapons would have a rank 1 Serration, and so on) and players stopped asking about it. It's just normal now, that all the old mods aren't worth using and you only focus on damage