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[DE]Danielle

Developer Workshop: Saryn Revisited 2.0

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1 minute ago, [DE]Aidan said:

Hey Tenno!

Can you please elaborate on your point here? We would love to know what about the change to this part of "Spores" has you thinking this way :)

Hi!

I think it's pretty well-known that as of right now Saryn's spores allows her to compete with other frames in terms of overall usefulness. Cast Spores on a Molt, pop 'em, few moments later new enemies spawn - cast the Spores and pop 'em again to affect those new enemies. This is extremely useful and convenient to keep enemies under the effect of Spores.

New 'recast to pop' is completely destroying this thing.

 

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Interesting, think I like the optimization the best with the changes for Saryn. The rest of the changes are also welcome though.

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3 minutes ago, Mastercontrol98 said:

Just a small note that has always been a nitpick of Saryn - So long as you're looking at Miasma, any chance it could affect new enemies entering the range where it was initially casted so long as it is still dealing dps? Essentially making miasma make a cloud similar to Mutalist osperey clouds that damages anything that comes inside, with a set duration. Would really help with her theme!

This is actually an interesting idea. Giving saryn a cloud on miasma that proc'd viral for all enemies entering would definitely be something that would make me happy with the change on her 1.

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3 minutes ago, Latiac said:

Saryn is a caster frame, Spore was the bread and butter of her 1.0 rework and was praised with how much utility it had after the rework of killing Nuke Miasma Saryn, it felt fun to play, you're constantly doing something with Saryn as she is.

The issue is energy, Miasma to proc viral also seems good, better than corrosive for sure.

There's one issue with this, Energy. Miasma will eat energy up, that and Corrosive damage doesn't exactly chew away at the high end contents health like Viral did.

And that is what it is supposed to do. Saryn has the biggest energy pool in the game for a reason, she is supposed to burn her energy reserves. This is a cooperative game, people should feel the need to run teams with Trinity and Harrow. Otherwise there wouldn't be any reason for these frames to exist. Also Saryn is now Rage compatible, with that armor increase

Edited by DreadWarlock
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Until we see it in action there's no way of knowing, but it sounds like Spore's augment needs to be entirely changed. All the skills that have that kind of mod (Freeze, Fireball, Current Spores, Shock, etc) are spammable spells. New Spore is going to, from the look of it, be a set-then-spring spell. You won't be able to apply the augment when you have spores active, and it sounds like not having spores active is going to be very difficult to rationalize to yourself in exchange for the bonus of the augment mod.

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It's going to take a lot of retraining to avoid the tendency to fire spores a lot: Saryn will become a frame where using your 1 twice can really screw up your overall strategy (and DPS). 

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15 minutes ago, Teloch said:

Why does the "heaviest" warframe that is depicted on my avatar has less armor than a caster?

Why is Volt as slow as you're rhino? The world may never know. So best not to question it.

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5 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

I beg to differ, specialization is nice but you can actually afford to run only Radiation VIral on your gun, if your local Saryn has this mod on. This will give optimal damage against armor.

Specialization is not always the answer. It'll also allow you to use Radiation/viral on infested because the damage bonus from corrosive will counter some of their resistances to both damage types.

 

If you using Viral + Rad then you're relying on Slash procs to deal majority of your damage and the added Corrosive procs only help to steal those Slash Procs as they're counted  into your proc weight. A non-Corrosive weapon is worse off if you use Venom Dose on it against armor because you will do less Bleed damage.

So no, it's just flat out worse as a Corrosive bonus.

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36 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 

Possibly better vs grineer, worse against corpus, ehh vs infested.

37 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Recasting Spores will detonate all active Spores and will deal 2x the damage on an infected enemy based on the number of active Spores and their current damage per tick.

 

39 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.   

So recasting detonates all of them, making you have to recast and kill to spread again, and that somehow gives better efficiency? By having to do it more over a longer period of time?

 

40 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:
  • Increased damage from 350 to 500. 
  • Increased duration from 3 to 5 seconds. 

116 x 3 ticks faster or 100 x 5 ticks slower... hmm... longer period of time... slower...

40 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

We are giving Saryn a “voice” when she casts (voiced by [DE]Danielle)

PLEASE DEAR GOD NO! Frames do not have mouths. I would much rather not be continuously annoyed by VFX that make absolutely no sense existing in the first place.

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was a bit nervous at the prospect of this. looks good though.

If you guys want to try out community saryn builds and whatnot like you did with the big warframe ability pass before I'd be more than happy to see you guys try mine on your test server. Very simple max range (pre plains mods at least) build i found a long long time ago. The one thing i'd want to try is maybe dropping continuity for some extra power strength since the spores are infinite duration.

my ship is pretty bland tho sry

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The more I'm thinking about this and reading other peoples comments the switch to corrosive is bothering me. Put me down for leave it viral and corrosive on Miasma.

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il y a 32 minutes, [DE]Aidan a dit :

Hey all! Just a quick reminder that this thread is for discussing THIS rework. Questions like "what about X frame, they could use some work" are not on-topic here and should be asked in the Warframe & Abilities Feedback section of the Forums. Crowding this thread with such responses won't help us gauge feedback to this rework.

Thanks!

I will maybe sound rude .. But if you dont listen to the feedback like you did with Elite Onslaught change and Efficiency  you did before reverting it , there is no point in feeback and I already gave some at page 2 of this thread .. 

Maybe once everyone gonna say (if you really go with the Viral from corrosive) that changing this wasnt a good idea, you will need to revert it... 

EDIT : Miasma with a Cloud that lingers seems a good idea from what I've gathered from this thread.. And if it remains procing Corrosive (and dont go with the changes) it will be a nice change for her..

Edited by MunsuLight
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Granted, Saryn is not my most often used frame, but I know her kit... kinda (*nervous laugh*), as I've come to use her often on Sanctuary Onslaught

Armor change:

big plus, I'm heavily melee biased with Saryn when going for enemies that are decorated with spores 👍

Spores:

Sweet holy geebus infinite duration?! O.O I think I can see where you're going with this though. Eventually the plague becomes so devastating that it kills enemies faster than it can spread and it "burns itself out," at which point it has to be recast. Interesting mechanic. I don't entirely agree with the viral -> corrosive change on the damage type, but the fact that we're talking about infinite duration and ever escalating corrosive damage, it means a lot of naked grineer on the map (figuratively of course... ugh!)

Molt:

Exactly because of its squishyness, I never really used it :S I mostly relied on my vazarin Tenno, my sentinel's medi-ray, life strike, or healing return. But now that Molt can scale better with enemy level I might decide to use it more often. Is the first "absorbing damage inflates the bullet sponge" phase influenced by power duration? Longer "initial absorb time" would mean a longer lasting distraction.

Toxic Lash:

Everything gets the toxic damage now? Sweeeet 🙂 Does it combine with other elements? Ie if I have a Saryn with a high radiation + cold Arca Plasmor, does toxic lash combine with the cold, making the Plasmor radiation + viral?

Quote

With the new spreading nature of Spores, survivability of Molt, and the increase duration of Toxic Lash and Miasma, Saryn is no longer as Energy hungry as she used to be, so we’ve removed the 2 Energy restore on Spores burst by Toxic Lash.

Aw there goes one of my energy strategies :S This is how I kept my energy up against all those energy leech eximi, especially in Survival and Onslaught. But with her armor booped up and getting a sturdier (regenerative) Molt, she can make better use of rage / hunter adrenaline-- will have to look into that one.

Miasma:

Can't provide a lot of feedback on this I'm afraid. :S Aside from its crowd control, I rarely ever used it. ^^'

Edited by Aldrr
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This sounds like an insane buff! It looks like you are preserving (and even substantially buffing) the viability of "sniper/bow Saryn," which is great because it's a way to do AoE damage that rewards precise and interactive play.

While you are looking at her, I hope that you fix the fact that Spores will not spread toxin procs if you one-shot the enemy. I don't know if this is intended or not; please clarify it or fix it. Here is evidence and testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIMKIF2VfQ

This leads to players thinking that Spores is randomly bugged. They kill enemies with high-damage weapons and get a gas/toxin proc, Spores spreads, but it does not spread a Toxin proc to the affected enemies. What's actually happening is that they are one-shotting the enemy, and the Spores are registering the death before the proc (I guess), so they just spread as a result of the enemy's death (with reduced range) rather than from the gas proc popping the spores. It took a lot of testing for me to figure this out; at first glance it just feels like the ability just doesn't work sometimes.

Of course, if you do fix this then you could nuke any map reliably with a gas Lanka. If you decide to keep it as a feature, please document it officially so that players know about it.

 

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Oh god. Removing viral from spores and having them pop on recast... Am I the only one that is cringing HARD at that bit?

Edited by Zendadaist
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Huh, that one came out of nowhere. Gonna watch prime time live to find out how the gameplay's changed with her.

Meanwhile, my lovely Banshee still hasn't gotten any sort of gameplay flow improvements after such a long time. No, I'm not talking about making Quake mobile by default - it shouldn't be. I'm talking mobile ability casting for the other abilities, some synergy between Silence and her 1 and 4.

Apologies for the little rant. It's difficult to watch a certain range of frames getting way more attention than others. Gonna go now and hug Trinity and Nyx.

12 minutes ago, Hyohakusha said:

PLEASE DEAR GOD NO! Frames do not have mouths. I would much rather not be continuously annoyed by VFX that make absolutely no sense existing in the first place.

 

Please, yes! Other frames vocalize as well. Banshee breathes, Rhino roars, Valkyr screams. If the vocalization fits, then I'm all for it.

 

Edited by AuroraSonicBoom
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Just now, DreadWarlock said:

And that is what it is supposed to do. Saryn has the biggest energy pool in the game for a reason, she is supposed to burn her energy reserves. This is a cooperative game, people should feel the need to run teams with Trinity and Harrow. Otherwise there wouldn't be any reason for these frames to exist. Also Saryn is now Rage compatible, with that armor

Saryn has had energy issues even with the increased energy pool and always has done.

Sure, Saryn is Rage compatible, but not every squad wants to run Trinity or Harrow, DE are actively trying to fine-tune the game where you don't NEED to have specific things to get stuff done, and this completely goes back on most of their work and direction in general.

Corrosive is super bad in a full squad if everyone is running Corrosive Projection, Ramping spore damage in reality won't do anywhere near enough damage to 100+ content to even consider it to be a buff, whereas Viral was providing the utility and active playstyle we see now.

It's a buff to Early to Mid-Game content, a buff that wasn't needed since she ultimately chews through that ANYWAY, and seems like a huge nerf to most end-game content with the exception of maybe stripping armour, in which someone has mentioned previously, seems like a bandaid fix to armour scaling.

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Sweet, no more ''camping and spreading toxicity'' tactic. 

 

Wait...wut...? a voice.....? As long as there aren't a bunch of spitting and gargling noises I am fine.

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Seems good so far, but I am somewhat confused about Spores. I am not sure about "recasting it in order to detonate" since that part was already covered with Miasma, and straight up recasting in order to put it on a different enemy is fairly convenient. However, given I am not the person testing it on your devbuild, maybe it's alright.

In addition, I trust we do get to keep the ability to spread Toxin procs with Spores? And Toxic Lash Toxin proc will spread as well?

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Hopefully spore range remains the same. If the re-work nerfs the range it will kill the fun of the frame. 

If you want us to use Miasma more, lower the cost or add some energy component to her kit to get energy to cast it. Many Saryns use negative efficiency builds in order to get both range and strength. We can't afford to cast Miasma often without dropping energy or an energy frame. 

edit: and reduce the cast speed. Natural Talent isn't worth the mod slot to make that feel less clunky. 

Edited by Borg1611
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From my cell and molecular biologist perspective - and thinking about Saryn's theme and synergy - spores spreading viral makes much more sense, biologically, compared to spreading corrosive.  Miasma continued that biological flow - popping spores, which corroded the infected, and spread the spores/virus to others. My scientist opinion is that corrosive first (spores), then viral (miasma), is not logical...dare I say not BIOlogical..

And after reading some additional ideas here - I think a gas cloud affect miasma fits much better with the saryn theme.

Also, casting spores on molt is limited (at least for me) to hold-a-point missions (defense, mobile defense, interception) - and in higher level missions, still requires active game play (not set it and forget it) - unlike the old world-on-fire Ember, which could be used universally.

Edited by (PS4)MikePDXphl
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45 minutes ago, [DE]Danielle said:

Tackling the “Spores Turret” - Shedding Molt and decorating it with Spores is fairly commonplace Saryn gameplay. We’ve noticed that this quick 1 - 2 step tends to result in a “set it and forget it” way of playing. We want players to feel more involved in Saryn’s poisonous grip over the enemy, while giving Spores and Molt more utility on their own.

The first step was removing the synergy to cast Spores on Molt. Distancing the two abilities gave us the start we needed to give them their very own unique and self-sufficient design. Now they perform independently of one another, giving Saryn more options in combat.  Details are listed below! 

Spores

Spores now have Infinite Duration and Escalating Damage! What exactly does that mean? Essentially, Spore duration is determined by the enemies affected. As long as enemies are dying to Spores, they will spread.  As an added bonus, the longer your Spores deal damage, the more your damage output will grow. 

*Developer note: We really want to emphasize that this is experimental. With Spores we’re trying a couple new things that we’ve never done before, so we’ve entered new territory that is both exciting and a little scary: Infinite Duration and Infinite Escalating Damage. Both of these have had interesting and fun results under normal test play and conditions, but we are still testing and looking for edge situations that might require us to go back to the drawing board.

  • Spores changed from Viral to Corrosive damage, which repurposes it as a great tool to strip armor from enemies. 
  • Increased Status Chance from 10% to 50%, also scaling with Power Strength.

Toxic Lash

You’ve told us that having Toxic Lash limited to Melee was too restrictive and was simply not compatible with a broader variety of playstyles. So we’re sharing its Toxin with the lot of your Arsenal! Toxic Lash’s Toxin damage buff in Saryn’s revisit is now granted to ANY weapon in your Loadout (Primary, Secondary, and Melee). In maintaining its roots, the damage buff on Melee weapons is doubled. 

  • With Toxic Lash active, your weapons will trigger Toxin Status Effect on any damage instance. 

Miasma

We’ve taken what’s great about Miasma, and made it even better in the scope of Saryn’s 2.0 changes! 

  • Changed Miasma’s damage type from Corrosive to Viral. 
    • *We've swapped Miasma and Spores damage types with one another since Spores in its 2.0 form allows for more than 1 proc per second.
  • Miasma has a 100% guaranteed Viral Status Effect on damage tick. 
8

Interesting, Something that could make or break this rework is whether Spore will spread toxin and/or viral with it, alongside corrosive.

I also feel that if you are going to make so spore is an On/Off ability, it would be redundant to make it not work on molt.

It' not clear it the Workshop whether you are going to change the way spores are transmitted, Can you still shoot them? Is it going to be like old Hydroid tentacle swarm augment? You should make it clearer.

It sounds like a great rework regardless, I hate the "sit here and press this button" style of "gameplay".

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I think most of us remain skeptical. There are things that are obviously good and needed. But others, we need to see it in practice (will be watching that mini stream with Pablo and Rebecca today) As many in the community, i'm used to play as a Melee Saryn, popping spores with Toxic Lash. Keeping that in mind:

  • Great number buffs in her armor or ability duration or strength. The Armor buffs are awesome and much needed in my opinion. About the Miasma numbers... personally, i only used Miasma to stun enemies, but I didn't feel it worked well as a burst dps tool. Maybe now it will with the increase in duration, status, etc.
  • Molt Changes are awesome (it sounds like pretty much fixed the ability). I'm wondering how much additional speed it'll grant.
  • The spores duration and spreading when enemies die is... godsent. I used to get so angry when i casted it and the enemy was killed immediately by another teammate. Also, it won't make necessary recast it a thousand times in molt. Very much appreciated.


In the other hand:

  • Kinda worries me if the energy will indeed be enough after removing the 2 energy recovery from Toxic Lash + Spores. I'll have to test that. I already use Zenurik, but i was thinking switching to Naramon since i didn't really needed that much energy.
  • The changes in Spores and Misma Damage type worries me. I'm thinking about Elite Onslaught for example, where reducing Enemies HP is more useful than stripping armor (Specially with a team full of Corrosive Projection). That, plus Simaris blocking your abilities. I might cast one Miasma and the effect won't spread as the old spores to new enemies spawning. A second cast and the ability will be blocked. Might have to think around that
  • Toxic Lash with Condition Overload was a very, very powerful combination. wouldn't it become too powerful applied to primaries and secondaries? this worries me, because i feel it might end being nerfed overall, still applying to the entire loadout, but being a lot less effective in melee
  • Overall, i hope Saryn doesn't become a "room clearer" again. That triggered the 1st Rework (and lots of Warframe reworks). If it makes the game too easy, or if players find that only pressing 4 they can clear Hydron's waves, the game will suffer from it a lot. Hope this brings her to a threshold of "Great" but not "Overpowered"


This is all i can think of feedback right now, without trying the frame myself (or having seen it). Hope it helps. Maybe not my exact words but the ideas and responses it might trigger (from the staff or anyone here in the community. Anyone is welcome to discuss my thoughts, it'll make the feedback even better)

Thanks a lot everybody!


 

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