Why Do People Need An Opt Out For Stalker Mode?

[Tatann]

43 minutes ago, LupisV0lk said:

For the same reason the concept of "that not ever pvper is a baby eating monster out to ruin your day"

Of course not every...

 

 

But most 😉

[(PSN)Shelneroth]

34 minutes ago, Lanadra said:

I'm really tired of discussing this topic.. especially because plenty of folks, such as yourself, even in this thread, simply refuse to get it.. but, here we go again:

People have a problem with it because, and please, for god sake use your common sense.. it will not stay that way. Player Stalkers will get butchered, and like any human, they won't like constantly losing, the ones behind those Stalkers will inevitably start complaining that they don't have a fair shot at winning.

This complaining will continue until DE is forced to do something with it. The moment they do, your ''a Stalker Mode with results and consequences no different from current Stalker'' becomes completely invalid. The very moment DE capitulates to complaints about unfair odds from Player Stalkers, is the moment the very notion of ''there shouldn't be a problem because Stalker will be as easy to kill as ever, thus even to strict PvE players who hate PvP, it shouldn't be a problem'' goes out the window.

Again, it is simple human nature. Nobody likes to lose, and if that loss is also because the game is rigged against them, which an unchanged Stalker only player controlled, would be.. that will make the loser even more salty.

-Edit: And I have stated this in previous threads also, and it bears repeating here: DE themselves have gone on record to say that they believe that if they add an opt-out, the game mode will be dead on arrival. Yes, they have expressed fear of giving us the option, because they genuinely think the vast majority of us will take it. That should already tell you enough about how strongly even the devs think their community will dislike such a forced PvP function.

I actually got an answer that explained the problem fully and I found very convincing. Your answer like much of this thread sadly doesn't seem to address why an opt out is necessary but rather argues against the mode being implemented altogether.

For clarity (and to try and highlight a good post I think has been overl looked) Mackowidz explained he dislikes pvp because he doesn't want to be in a situation where one player has to lose. As such he plays a co-op game. Stalker Mode would inherently undermine this fundmental aspect of co-operative pve.

[Sace]

I think we can all agree that an AI-Stalker will most likely remain a joke forever against high-geared people. In the early versions of the game when I was still somewhat fresh, he was more terrifying.

I wish those times would return and seriously, there is basically no negative consequence from dying to him, so where is the big deal? I'd rather have at least a little bit of challenge compared to a stalker that is not even a nuisance.

The only things I want implemented to curb the usual negatives that come with PvP is:

• no chat between each other
• no names shown
• no possibility for teabagging after a kill (which shouldn't be possible already)
• no stalker interaction with any mission objective.
• no operator form while the encounter is active, just like dispel
• AI-Stalker kept for the normal BP farm

An encounter with no other interaction, a pure stalker-like invasion with the only goal of killing and nothing else would be completely fine for me.

It is especially important to remove every possibility of identifying the other players, because people tend to be uncivil and I don't need that.

[wargthewarg]

I have zero interest in being targeted by another player. I don't even understand why player controlled stalker is a thing DE wants to implement.

I play this game for PvE. I don't want PvP forced on me during PvE missions. Especially not while they haven't addressed any of the things that make their PvP unfun. 

Also, if DE would ship it as is then it's just another dead gamemode. Who would go play a mode where you're instakilled by a squad? I just don't see how any of this is worth the time and/or effort from DE when the PvP in this game is just not working.

[rand0mname]

Is it so hard to understand that you can drag a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink?

I think DE can add a carrot for PvE players and win over 10% of us. Or they can force it on everyone and have something so promising as a Stalker mode end in the same way Dark Sectors did. Any news on that rework, by the way?

[Makunogo]

why do people think that players are going to be targeted? the players are targeted by the stalker mark - there isn't going to be some personal agenda.  stalker showing up has barely any effect on the mission. and people seem to have forgotten stalker disappears after getting killed or killing someone.

now issues i could see minute issues pop up (which im 99% sure DE would address when they pop up) is stalker hitting objectives as an enemy would but that isn't much of an issue since u can still kill the player using stalker as they are trying to sabotage the mission. 

but since stalker is an enemy we can assume our warframe abilities and weapons and operator can still pretty much one shot it... I honestly dont even know because 99% of the time stalker is dead before i ever figure out where he spawned.. 

i think we should leave this as it is. a cool new idea. opt out of stalker showing up? well dont have a stalker mark. and he will never show up. but im not seeing many people who are gonna be on wf constantly waiting to get killed by another player with little to no impact on teh mission

 lets be real even if stalker controller player was used its not really possible for it to make you fail the mission unless someone is absolutely ungeared but i think the stalker level is based on the level of the mission anyway so it does have that scaling 

Edited December 12, 2018 by Makunogo

[FlusteredFerret]

3 minutes ago, wargthewarg said:

I have zero interest in being targeted by another player. I don't even understand why player controlled stalker is a thing DE wants to implement.

I play this game for PvE. I don't want PvP forced on me during PvE missions. Especially not while they haven't addressed any of the things that make their PvP unfun. 

Also, if DE would ship it as is then it's just another dead gamemode. Who would go play a mode where you're instakilled by a squad? I just don't see how any of this is worth the time and/or effort from DE when the PvP in this game is just not working.

This is exactly my take on it.

The Pro Stalker Mode players say Stalker is easy to kill (for people with the right gear / frames)...so how would this mode be any fun in the first place?

Far as I can see, the only way to make this mode playable would be to give player-controlled Stalkers heal / revive abilities, or something so that they can't be killed quickly, or can at least return if they die...which can all be exploited by trolls at worst, or at least can really ruin the experience for PvE players just wanting to get on with a mission.

 

[AzureTerra]

2 hours ago, FrostedMike said:

Let's say you are a veteran player, you got everything in the game and know how to play good. You happen to take on a new player as Stalker, what chance does he have?

About the same if they were fighting a AI Stalker with the added effect of stalker being more erratic and harder to hit since a player controlled one is going to be more unpredictable. 

[Tsukinoki]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

So the sole reason for needing an opt out is the pure principal of not wanting to fight another player regardless if the consequences are no different from fighting an npc? Given that player controlled Stalker would be ultimately no different from improving npc Stalkers ai why is the knowledge he is player controlled important?

The problem I see is that it won't be the same as an AI stalker.

For instance:
-AI Stalker isn't programmed to set off the alarms in spy and rescue missions...he can set them off if he spawns at a bad time but isn't programmed to abuse that.  What about players?  What's to stop them from causing mission failures by triggering alarms?
-AI stalker isn't programmed to just run and hide to cause failures in capture and survival missions...and yet I can easily see some stalker players doing that "for teh lulz".  After all if you can't kill stalker fast enough in survival it'll just burn down your O2 until you fail....
-AI stalker isn't programmed to just kill the other memebers of the squad repeatedly while ignorring his actual target...and yet I can easily see stalker players doing that if they get matched with lower rank or under-geared players

And there are lots of other ways that the player controlled stalker could grief or cause problems.  And I just don't want to deal with that.

I play the soulsborne games a lot, and those are the games I go to when I want random invasions, its simply not the reason I play warframe.
I play warframe for the co-op features...which a forced PvP stalker is the antithesis of.

2 hours ago, WabanUK said:

I've read thread after thread on this, and I've not seen a single rational argument as to why it needs to be opt-in.

Basically every argument is "I don't want it, and if it's put in I'll quit the game forever", but never a reason why they don't want it.

And I've read tons of threads and yet I've not seen a single rational argument of why it needs to be mandatory with absolutely no option to avoid it.
Basically every argument for that is "I want to get my jollies off against players regardless of their choices in the matter!"

If I wanted invasions like this I would be playing a soulsborne game..which I do quite a bit.  That's not why I come to warframe.
And hek, even in soulsborne games you can tun off player invasions!  And yet in warframe people don't want that to be possible for some reason...
And please don't say "Well you can just not kill bosses!" which is basically saying "Stop progressing in the starchart and buy every single frame if you don't want to be ganked by vets playing stalker mode!"

Edited December 12, 2018 by Tsukinoki
Fixed Typos

[(PSN)Zero_029]

1 hour ago, ant99999 said:

To my mind this can easily be balanced. DE will surely figure out how to do it. For example make Stalker's ability to nullify players' abilities also kill operators. Or give him an ability to damage through void mode.

This is the type of negative change adding PVP to PVE could have.

This would be extremely unfair & an insult to players who worked hard on their Operators.

Basically, all that work is tossed aside because a Stalker player can't get his licks in. That would be very bad game design.

Operators already have a negative stigma on them & getting people to invest in them is hard enough.

For example, if a player has spent over a year building up their Operator to where it can fight Stalker then the player has every right to use their Operator.

For Stalker to just one shot it is obnoxious & disregards all the hard work the player out into their Operator.

Maxing all Focus, building & farming Operator Arcanes, & etc is one of the most tedious & hard earned aspects of Warframe. As the pay off isn't really felt until about the 75% done point.

It's a log path & those who do it deserve to use the power gained.

Lore wise it wouldn't make sense either. As Operator isn't an Ability, the Operator is literally there in the flesh so aside from actually killing the operator with a weapon there is nothing else that can be done about it.

[Cuchullin]

I would suggest it would be better to have it work where you do a quest to get some more lore on stalker and the apprentices he has that pop up every once in a while where you track stalker down through his apprentices and traditional big fight at the end. Once the quest is complete have stalker mode tracking mission that pop up like nightmare missions except that for each one you get nav coordinates to the final location to fight stalker like in the lephantis assassinate or mutalist Alad V missions. That would cover the lore side introduction, limit the open invasion by player stalker to one node that is randomized per planet, won't be available to players who haven't completed the quest so limiting the chances of new players getting destroyed and offer a means for players to get stalker gear that doesn't or hasn't dropped yet. Just a thought. 

[Lanadra]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Shelneroth said:

I actually got an answer that explained the problem fully and I found very convincing. Your answer like much of this thread sadly doesn't seem to address why an opt out is necessary but rather argues against the mode being implemented altogether.

For clarity (and to try and highlight a good post I think has been overl looked) Mackowidz explained he dislikes pvp because he doesn't want to be in a situation where one player has to lose. As such he plays a co-op game. Stalker Mode would inherently undermine this fundmental aspect of co-operative pve.

That's because the reasons are the same. People want an opt-out because they don't want to PvP. And if no opt-out, then people don't want this entire mode to begin with.. because they don't want to PvP.

You're trying to pretend like my points are invalid because it ''sounds'' like I'm not trying to argue for an opt-out, bur rather against the mode entirely. Which, frankly, is not the case, I've said in multiple of these threats that DE can do whatever they want with this as long as they let me opt-out entirely, to the point where I never have to deal with it.

At the same time, when even the devs think that this will be so vehemently disliked that it'll be dead on arrival if they give us an option. Then to some degree it does sound to me like perhaps they should indeed not even bother, unless their conclusion is ''We know the majority of our player base doesn't want it. But we'll still implement it with an opt-out'', in which case Player Stalker becomes a niche function for those who appreciate it, much like Conclave, while the rest of us don't have to worry about it. Which, again, would be fine by me.

I find the very notion of PvPers, or even just fellow PvE folks who are fine with this, thinking that it's okay to just force something like this, for me to basically just have my entire experience playing Warframe ruined, and that I should supposedly just learn to deal with it. To be absolutely ludicrous. I do not want any human controlled entity, Stalker or otherwise, to stand in opposition to me and my team as we cooperatively try to accomplish a mission. I do not want it. I should not have to present any other reason then that as to why I want the option to opt-out.

There is a reason I don't play Conclave, why I don't play Dark Souls. Because I don't want any sort of PvP, I don't enjoy it, I don't want it. Period.

[(PSN)watt4hem]

Player controlledbstalker could :

a. Kill tour hostages

b. Destroy your defence targets

c. Camp out in excavations and snipe your excavators

d. Etc.

[SneakyErvin]

2 hours ago, WabanUK said:

I've read thread after thread on this, and I've not seen a single rational argument as to why it needs to be opt-in.

Basically every argument is "I don't want it, and if it's put in I'll quit the game forever", but never a reason why they don't want it.

I understand that people wouldn't want a mode that allows any player to target any other player, any time they want, and just turn up and kill them (what is known as "ganking"). That is not what is suggested at all.

Stalker is a joke, he shows up and is dead 5 seconds later, that's it. If he was controlled by a player, he might take 10 seconds to kill. That's all there is, a very very slightly harder to kill stalker. There has been no suggestion so far he'd be anything else. Lot of crying over nothing, as always.

There are several reasons. How people connect to others is the main issue for me.

1. Ping limiter doesnt work as is, that would be even more of a nightmare with a PC Stalker mode. The reason I dont PvP at all in this game because is due to not having dedicated servers.

2. Following on #1 is the question how Stalker mode would handle all this. Since it isnt always the host being hunted. This could turn into a nightmare very often, both for stalker and players since not everyone in the group has the same ping to the host. This can result in a Stalker joining with perfect ping to his target, but since his target isnt the host he may end up with an aweful ping once he joins. It all depends what the matchmaking did when the initial group was created. Not to mention the lag that happens mostly when people join, which in the wrong situation can lead to you getting hit by that one shot in higher content.

3. Balance issues is another thing. We shouldnt run a risk having our PvE balance shifted because of some disgruntled PvP-obsessed outliers in an otherwise PvE focused game. This is what would happen if there was no opt in/out. The few PvPers that love the mode would flood the forums with salt and beg for either frame/weapon/operator nerfs or massive buffs to Mr. Talldarkandemotional. PvP and PvE should be seperate due to this or be part of the game balance from the very start.

4. Host migrations. Say the host is marked by Stalker, the guy is really alergic to PvP, he ditches the group, forcing a host migrations. What happens then? Possible loss of loot and time spent for the rest, PC Stalker stuck in limbo (no not in Limbo- limbo cos that would be nasty) or something else.

So there are several viable reasons why it should be opt-in, so people can avoid as much of the above S#&$ as possible. The game simply isnt well made with forced PvP active.

 

[Makunogo]

do you mean to imply that if this was implemented if a stalker was to show up and it looked like it was player controlled players would just quit the mission cus its essentially too hard to kill an other player with limited abilities?  (stalkers arsenal is not that big)

this is a response at point 4.

and how do we opt out of being marked by the stalker? currently we cannot get rid of any mark until they spawn. so the opt out is an opt out of player controlled stalkers only then i assume?

i think it's best to wait until this is actually in game before we rush to conclusions as we still dunno what DE will do with this idea.

then we can realistically post some feedback.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Makunogo

[(PSN)Apoleon_amarr]

I know right? We can always use the good old alt f4, no need to opt out

[Lanadra]

3 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

do you mean to imply that if this was implemented if a stalker was to show up and it looked like it was player controlled players would just quit the mission cus its essentially too hard to kill an other player with limited abilities?  (stalkers arsenal is not that big)

this is a response at point 4.

and how do we opt out of being marked by the stalker? currently we cannot get rid of any mark until they spawn. so the opt out is an opt out of player controlled stalkers only then i assume?

i think it's best to wait until this is actually in game before we rush to conclusions as we still dunno what DE will do with this idea.

then we can realistically post some feedback.

''We should wait until it's implemented.. because then I essentially have already gotten what I wanted and the way I wanted it'' Yeah, we should totally do that. /s

I disagree, obviously.

[Gabbynaru]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)ZERO_ghost90 said:

I know right? We can always use the good old alt f4, no need to opt out

Or we could just get the mode as opt-in so that we don't then have to waste our time logging back in, or lose mission progression. PvP-ers would still PvP with people who opted in, while PvE-ers won't even care PvP-ers or the mode exists in the game.

[Makunogo]

5 minutes ago, Lanadra said:

''We should wait until it's implemented.. because then I essentially have already gotten what I wanted and the way I wanted it'' Yeah, we should totally do that. /s

I disagree, obviously.

if you going to quote someone don't go changing their words as you see fit. thats pretty rude. essentially fabricated my post to your agenda. with something i didn't even say

Edited December 12, 2018 by Makunogo

[Dreddeth]

I'd like so much to say that I trust hypothetical Player-Stalkers not to be horrible little griefers who abuse the mechanic to fail or otherwise screw with other people's missions as opposed to acting in accordance with the spirit of the concept, and that it's almost fair to put an actual player behind an enemy with a dozen or so over-tuned abilities that the AI conveniently forgets to use aside from spamming Dispel.

But don't you dare put me in that situation. I only have so much faith in this player base to lose, and the very notion that we somehow wouldn't deserve, if not outright need, an option to opt out has shaken that faith already.

[Lanadra]

Just now, Makunogo said:

if you going to qoute someone don't go changing the words as you see fit. thats pretty rude.

I was summarizing the general tone and attitude of your post, not your literal words.

[Makunogo]

3 minutes ago, Lanadra said:

I was summarizing the general tone and attitude of your post, not your literal words.

well respectfully disagree there is no attitude in it at all. read it was it was written. thanks

Edit: this discussion is about content we have no info on and may not even come in game. which is basically what i was pointing out. its alot easier to give feedback on something thats actually in game versus arguing hypotheticals that may never happen.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Makunogo

[(PSN)drpunk-yo]

I'm not a big fan of PvP. But I do like the sound of this stalker mode.

I keep seeing people say "forced PvP" and I'm sat here thinking it's not. Like, TECHNICALLY it is because it's person versus person but it's not what I'd consider PvP.

So I'm wondering why my PvP isn't someone else's PvP. And I think the answer lies in competitive.

And this ain't competitive PvP. I think that makes a big difference. To me, at least.

[Vanille]

1 hour ago, LupisV0lk said:

For the same reason the concept of "that not ever pvper is a baby eating monster out to ruin your day"

But the ironic thing is, stalker mode is designed for it.
Stalker is a low-mid challenge RNG miniboss (if you're new-ish to the game, otherwise it's no challenge at all) implemented after lore as a new mechanic of them visiting you for some rarity instead of you farming their planet node for rewards. It's manageable with its AI and players don't usually mind him because he's just a loot piñata not much different than other mission enemies. The purpose of the exclusive stalker mode is to troll and disrupt other players in any way you can (which currently includes being able to destroy objetives that can result the mission in a failure), but it's a rare troll mode that only developers use sometimes on devstreams, not something people would have to deal daily at all times.

The mode results in a couple of scenarios:
A) You spawn and you're hopeless as the current stalker is, unless you hit jackpot and get to disrupt a newbie who can't properly deal with the stalker, which is unfair. So why would anyone, pro-pvper or not, to have a mode in which you can't do anything? Conclave is basically dead, why bother adding even more PvP-sided features that are even worse?
B) You balance the stalker to survive and not be hopeless, then you just changed and forced PvP on players that are not looking for PvP with chances to most likely succeed on disrupting them, so obviously people would want to opt-out of it, or be unhappy with the game.

As much as I try to come up with a reason of why stalker mode would be fun, I can't. PvP doesn't work in Warframe, Conclave is there to prove it.

[Lanadra]

2 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

well respectfully disagree there is no attitude in it at all. read it was it was written. thanks

Very well, I'm sure you can excuse me for thinking someone ''has an attitude'' when their solution to not wanting to face a player stalker is to simply, and now I will quote you exactly as you said it:

39 minutes ago, Makunogo said:

i think we should leave this as it is. a cool new idea. opt out of stalker showing up? well dont have a stalker mark. and he will never show up. but im not seeing many people who are gonna be on wf constantly waiting to get killed by another player with little to no impact on teh mission

Your solution is essentially, and do excuse me summarizing again.. ''stop killing bosses'', in a game where if you want to farm and acquire just about anything that isn't prime gear.. you have to kill bosses. It's a rather frequent and tiring argument that also isn't a solution at all. It's just a flippant ''stop getting in the way of something I want'' response.

The only reason people are arguing against an opt-out is because they know Stalker mode will be DOA otherwise. So the conclusion is basically this: ''Argue against it and force the majority of this game's playerbase into it.. just so that a function I want isn't DOA.''

There is no reason not to include an opt-out, it will avoid a massive backlash and headache for DE having to deal with said backlash. You're not dealing with a ''vocal minority'' standing in your way, even the devs have admitted that they believe Stalker mode will be DOA if we are able to opt-out of it. I have several times already emphasized how much of this game's community must really not want it then.