Players Say "We Want Rewards", without ever actually Saying or Agreeing on what they want.

[DOOMPATRIOT]

hace 15 minutos, 844448 dijo:

So you don't see the power you have to survive +3 hours survival runs as your reward?

Yeah, but the problem is that Warframe isn't that kind of game, it doen't rewards you for your skill, neither for your time investement, it only rewards you for beeing the most efficient for getting actual material rewards.

Edited August 25, 2019 by DOOMPATRIOT

[844448]

1 minute ago, DOOMPATRIOT said:

Yeah, but the problem is that Warframe isn't that kind of game, it doen't rewards you for your skill, neither for your time investement, it only rewards you for beeing the most efficient.

Isn't being the most efficient also a reward? investing some time to reach that level and become the most efficient

[Raqiya]

Just now, DOOMPATRIOT said:

Yeah, but the problem is that Warframe isn't that kind of game, it doen't rewards you for your skill, neither for your time investement, it only rewards you for beeing the most efficient.

That's a real tough thing to change. You'll have to build the game up again from the ground up unless you want a patch job fix.

[sinnae]

Players Say "We Want Rewards", without ever actually Saying or Agreeing on what they want.

Well, most players are not game designers; if the playerbase could explicitly and cogently describe exactly the thing they want, they would probably be working in game design. Sometimes it's easier to use a process of elimination - for instance, with the announcement on Echoes of Umbra, we have collectively figured out as a community that we do not want temporary consumables. This may come across as whining, but ultimately it is constructive.

Consumers in general aren't great at verbalizing what they do want. But most of the time they know when they see it whether or not it's something they're interested in. That's why industrial/product design is iterative. You can't create the perfect product in one go based off of a single focus group. You need to actually release the product, only then will consumers tell you with their wallets (or their mouths) what they do/don't like about it. Then you revise your product and release a v. 2, etc.

[Sagittarix]

56 minutes ago, Gabbynaru said:

But you don't need to be a game designer to know when a terrible idea is terrible.

I completely agree. Oftentimes criticism is getting brushed of by "but you don't know how to to it better" (e.g. the Ivara Deluxe discussion).

I am not getting paid for coming up with better ideas than anyone whos profession game design is.

Edited August 25, 2019 by Sagittarix

[VanFanel1980mx]

I am still on the idea of "end game" rewards (by end game I talk about all those broken bullet sponges people want everywhere) to be purely cosmetic, stuff that veterans and hardcore players will have on display and to brag about their time and effort without using said "end game" to gate content for less dedicated players who prefer the power fantasy and a less broken "challenge", if anything the game probably needs a bit more variety on game modes.

[YazMatazO]

1 hour ago, Tangent-Valley said:

DE can't listen if you NEVER SAY WHAT YOU WANT!!! (Or at least agree on things others do vocalize)

Well... not that anyone would bat an eye but I've said it plenty of times before - I want only the gameplay. That is to say I want(dream) WF to utilize it's shooter-in-the-three-dimensions aspect more while diversifying its enemies along the way in order for them to become more responsive and interesting. 🙂

These days I feel that adding new rewards to WF is risky because most of the time they'd either be underwhelming or breaking the game further. It's not an easy thing making rewards for WF anymore, I will tell you that much. 

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

I think the community has given DE alot of feedback about rewards. DE disregards feedback, does what they want anyway. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by (XB1)SixGunLove

[(NSW)Sk0rp1on]

1 hour ago, Gabbynaru said:

Look mate, it's not our job to come up with great rewards. They have and pay their designers for that. But you don't need to be a game designer to know when a terrible idea is terrible. Temporary rewards are not rewarding. Period. Now get those game designers that are paid to design this game to design rewards that are actually rewarding. Thank you!

Going a step further in your criticism than “I’m unhappy” is not too much to ask.

You even did it yourself. You don’t want temporary boosts like umbra echos. Good job you! 

[YazMatazO]

1 hour ago, VotumPrime said:

that decomposing pizza looking thing.

Just out of curiosity - who's the decomposing pizza? 🙂

[trst]

The thing is that whether something is good enough to be a reward or not is subjective and when it comes to what does make it into the game or not DE will always have more data than players do.

Just look at all the drama around Dog Days: there were people on both sides of the fence regarding everything about it. With the rewards specifically some people found the entire event pointless because they already had the mods and didn't care for floofs or captura. While there are people who willingly spent dozens of hours grinding the mode away because they wanted the floofs. No matter how much people found the event pointless there are still others who enjoyed it solely for the rewards.

Cosmetic rewards in general seem to cause the most contention. Whether it's that they don't appeal to someone and is a wasted reward or they'd have preferred something like a new weapon or mod instead. Like with Nightwave where there are people who love getting the new cosmetics while there are others who only want another Umbra Forma and nothing else.

Then even when rewards are a new weapon or mod they still cause problems. Anything that isn't "meta defining" will get passed off as "useless mastery fodder" and thus a worthless reward, while others are happy just to get something new to use or if it's a variant (Vandal, Wraith, etc) are happy to have a new upgrade even if it isn't the new Simulor. And any mod that isn't objectively better than something else used in typical builds will get viewed as useless or as fun or niche.

Then there is the issue with us simply not knowing the full picture. The forums are a minority as far as the entire community is concerned and as such if anything is requested here that seems to go against data that DE has then it's likely to not be worth the time. There have been plenty of arguments against Echoes saying "who'd want this?" or "who uses Umbra for his passive?" yet DE is the one with the usage data showing how many people actively use Umbra and said data can easily go against what the forum community thinks.

With anything that gets added chances are DE will know exactly how many people with through the hoops to get it and how that stacks up against the community as a whole. Regardless of how much the forums or subreddit complain about Echoes if there are a considerable amount of people farming for them and actually using them it will be viewed as a success regardless of these complaints.

And DE giving us every possible usage and player activity stat under the sun isn't going to just solve this issue either. Players will still disagree with something even if they're in a minority that dislikes it and would most likely simply result is players viewing said stats as DE saying "See? You're all wrong." and there will be players who'll get overly upset at that.

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

Yea as an outsider with prior forum and vet experience: I'm already seeing different camps of vets saying different things....

Nothing is new under the sun.

 

There's people saying there's power creep, while people are also asking for more power creep....

There's people saying there's no endgame and nothing to do and they're bored....and people also saying they have everything and it's too easy and boring....

 

"I have 18,000 hrs, I can kill anything in 2 seconds, but you guys need to add long lasting meaningful content" lol

 

"We need to bring rivens in line"

"We need more riven space and better stronger frames n weapons blahs blah"

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

15 minutes ago, trst said:

The thing is that whether something is good enough to be a reward or not is subjective and when it comes to what does make it into the game or not DE will always have more data than players do.

Just look at all the drama around Dog Days: there were people on both sides of the fence regarding everything about it. With the rewards specifically some people found the entire event pointless because they already had the mods and didn't care for floofs or captura. While there are people who willingly spent dozens of hours grinding the mode away because they wanted the floofs. No matter how much people found the event pointless there are still others who enjoyed it solely for the rewards.

Cosmetic rewards in general seem to cause the most contention. Whether it's that they don't appeal to someone and is a wasted reward or they'd have preferred something like a new weapon or mod instead. Like with Nightwave where there are people who love getting the new cosmetics while there are others who only want another Umbra Forma and nothing else.

Then even when rewards are a new weapon or mod they still cause problems. Anything that isn't "meta defining" will get passed off as "useless mastery fodder" and thus a worthless reward, while others are happy just to get something new to use or if it's a variant (Vandal, Wraith, etc) are happy to have a new upgrade even if it isn't the new Simulor. And any mod that isn't objectively better than something else used in typical builds will get viewed as useless or as fun or niche.

Then there is the issue with us simply not knowing the full picture. The forums are a minority as far as the entire community is concerned and as such if anything is requested here that seems to go against data that DE has then it's likely to not be worth the time. There have been plenty of arguments against Echoes saying "who'd want this?" or "who uses Umbra for his passive?" yet DE is the one with the usage data showing how many people actively use Umbra and said data can easily go against what the forum community thinks.

With anything that gets added chances are DE will know exactly how many people with through the hoops to get it and how that stacks up against the community as a whole. Regardless of how much the forums or subreddit complain about Echoes if there are a considerable amount of people farming for them and actually using them it will be viewed as a success regardless of these complaints.

And DE giving us every possible usage and player activity stat under the sun isn't going to just solve this issue either. Players will still disagree with something even if they're in a minority that dislikes it and would most likely simply result is players viewing said stats as DE saying "See? You're all wrong." and there will be players who'll get overly upset at that.

Yep, exactly.

[S.Dust]

Lol it's not the players job to come up with the rewards being honest. Everything is so backwards with warframe. Like they should be able to come up with rewards that fit their game same thing with content it's not the players job to come up with long lasting content.

 

Honest opinion here, there is no reward they can give us not because we the player base are picky but because the game itself isnt built to reward us well. Nothing is difficult enough to warrant a power up reward so we're left with cosmetics and gimmicks that only last so long.

Also the reason why the echos of umbra is getting such a bad rep is because it screams gimmick that we didnt think out.  I mean how much time do people actually spend in their operator to make this reward valuable. I have no problem with temporary buffs but even then I have to say if it was a stat buff why would it matter we destroy everything we touch in game already.

Sorry to say good rewards come from good content that has actual progression, which warframe does not have, and it's not the communities job to make the game for them.

I should probably also say I have no problem with the echos of umbra like put it in the game if you want I just wont ever use it or actively try to farm it.

Edited August 25, 2019 by S.Dust

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Most rewards are pointless stat increases that will create a short term rush of dopamine in the player's mind because he thinks he's more powerful. That only lasts for a little while, though, as the new power level is quickly becoming the new normal. The thing is, modern PVE games rely almost entirely on power progression, which has conditioned players to expect that feeling, or downright desire it. Addiction is a strong term, but its a fitting analogy.

As a response, devs constantly reward players with rewards that fulfill this desire, while at the same time having to come up with challenges that won't be instantly trivial the moment they're released. That means tougher enemies that themselves have more power. This cycle of inflating numbers does little to nothing in terms of giving players actual rewards they can enjoy for more than a few days. It does, however, trivialize old content. Imagine running around in Skyrim with godmode, infinite damage and hyper speed constantly enabled. It gets old. Fast. Yet players ask exactly for that in PvE games, not realizing how unrewarding a short numbers high is compared to actually playing for fun.

This playing for fun mentality has been largely lost, yet I believe it can be revived if games allow players to make them feel like they have an impact on the world they're in.

 

tl;dr - power creep is a destructive to good game design, and because warframe fully embraced it, the longer you play the less rewarding it feels.

 

[kgabor]

44 minutes ago, (XB1)GaussPrime said:

This is all nonsense, there is one reward NO ONE would turn away..

A live hog.

Seriously, let the new disruption mode drop that and everyone would be happy to farm it. No one would even dare to say "I don't feel rewarded"..

I sure wouldn't turn away a drivable Razorback.

[xXDeadsinxX]

1 hour ago, sinnae said:

Players Say "We Want Rewards", without ever actually Saying or Agreeing on what they want.

Well, most players are not game designers; if the playerbase could explicitly and cogently describe exactly the thing they want, they would probably be working in game design. Sometimes it's easier to use a process of elimination - for instance, with the announcement on Echoes of Umbra, we have collectively figured out as a community that we do not want temporary consumables. This may come across as whining, but ultimately it is constructive.

Consumers in general aren't great at verbalizing what they do want. But most of the time they know when they see it whether or not it's something they're interested in. That's why industrial/product design is iterative. You can't create the perfect product in one go based off of a single focus group. You need to actually release the product, only then will consumers tell you with their wallets (or their mouths) what they do/don't like about it. Then you revise your product and release a v. 2, etc.

This. 🙌

[Todd.Howard]

Personally, I'd rather see more fixes/improvements for what they already have.

[Ghogiel]

so let me get this straight...random people on the internet with different wants, needs and ideas don't form some magical cohesive hive mind and start thinking the same things and come to a concessus that's all summed up in a convienent tldr thread, instead it's a huge broad spectrum of conflicting ideas all dotted around various formats and outlets?

 

k

Edited August 25, 2019 by Ghogiel

[(PSN)AllOrNothinDays]

I think it has to do with them just have no idea what to do themselves. Look at the rewards we have been getting lately, they're a bit all over the place or just end up being things no one really needs or would use because it feels like they aren't playing their own game sometimes. It's the same thing that has been going on with prime mods, they had an idea of how to do a few of them then as things went along there was a big "uh oh" and we go all those very niche or worthless prime mods after a while. Look at what they had to offer for your vitus essence from arbitrations O.o.

[Jarriaga]

I made a thread some months ago highlighting why the "one and done" reward structure was a problem for player progression and game mode longevity:

 

 

 

Part of WF's problem with replayability, veterans, and lack of an Endgame (Defined in this case as what you should be focused on as a veteran or experienced player) is that rewards are mostly mods or weapons you discard or don't use more than once or offer no value if obtained again.

Proposed solution: Add rewards that hold their own value upon repeated acquisitions even if as a long-term but reliable time investment. Examples?

1) An item that grants a 5% permanent stat increase to any single stat in a frame or weapon of your choice each time you get it.

2) An item that allows you to create an Amalgam mod of your own with 80% of the original mod's stats. This Amalgam mod can not be traded, and it can not be used at the same time as any of the other 2 base mods or fused with another Amalgam mod.

3) An item that lets you permanently bind an Augment mod to a frame, which frees the mod slot for the Augment. This limits the acquisition benefit to 4 times per frame, but opens the door to needing multiple copies of the same frame since some Augments are counter-productive to some playstyles. Thus, retaining repeated acquisition value.

4) An item that unlocks a new physical mod slot in a frame or weapon and increases mod capacity accordingly.

5) An item that lets you fuse some reward mods like Adaptation upon repeated acquisition. For example, the item would be consumed alongside 5 max rank Adaptations into "Adaptation X1", in which the effect of Adaptation now applies to 2 damage types instead of 1, and so on. 

6) An item that lets you permanently lock a Riven stat. This Riven can no longer be traded.

7) An item that adds a passive ability of your choice to a frame or weapon without removing previous passives. The list includes passives from other frames, Syndicate weapons, or re-purposed mods. 

Those are examples of rewards that hold their value on repeated acquisitions, which is what veterans, experienced players, and those who have all other "one and done" rewards would appreciate and provide a long tail of replayable value and engagement since there would always be something to look forward to obtain even when there's no new content. Even if you could only obtain those items by trading 100 Vitus essence, few people would disagree those are fair rewards for such a huge time investment, and you can do it again and again, so it never loses value. Sure it further breaks the game, but at least you don't feel like the reward does not match the effort.

Rewards that have repeated acquisition value that can only be obtained on the long run (No RNG) would solve many player retention issues, and minimize complaints about lack of proper rewards at least with regards to what veteran players may find appealing after everything else has been done.  

Edited August 25, 2019 by Jarriaga

[Goodwill]

Just thinking about, I think rewards are not the real problem here. Better rewards will not make a better game. It's like having "benefits" at your workplace which is really just hiding the fact that your boss is underpaying you. In Warframe's case, "good" rewards would only be a carrot on a stick to get players to play through bad content.

Make good content first. Content where people would play even if they aren't being rewarded. Then rewards are just an added bonus of achievement within that content.

But let me humor this rewards argument. Instead of DE putting new weapons or cosmetics behind arbitrary grind walls or platinum in the store, maybe they should lock these items through achievements in game modes. True it would still technically be a grind, but I think with the right achievements you could make the grind more skill-based rather than simply the amount of arbitrary time you put into collecting certain resources. Detailing this I do feel will be a bit off-topic and deserves its own thread.

[(PSN)Warframe_Elite_1]

Quote

"Okay, what do you want?"

they never asked us that question they have partners that give them a lots of feedback about rewards but 90% of them are ignored remember when we wanted scaling reward in kuva survivel

Edited August 25, 2019 by (PS4)Warframe_Elite_1

[Ephemiel]

Literal years of players and even Partners saying what we want and here comes this dude trying to farm Rep by saying no one ever tells DE.

[Nez-Kal]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)Warframe_Elite_1 said:

they never asked us that question they have partners that give them a lots of feedback about rewards but 90% of them are ignored remember when we wanted scaling reward in kuva survivel

Yes. And remember when they EXPLICITLY said they were aware that parts of the Player-Base wanted the Kuva rewards to scale, and then stated that They (The Leads and Developers) did not want it too because they felt that would give "Elite" Endurance Runners (Those use to the Void Key days, and running Missions for hours on end) a HUGE potential advantage when it came to Rivens and rolling those "Desired" stats for the Market, and how "...That not the game we're trying to make here".

If anything, you're just proving that YOU don't listen to DE when they state things Players and the Community have asked for, and their follow-ups to them. Thanks for making your position so obviously clear.