Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets

[ILOHARTA]

I'm eating popcorns while waiting for them to "fix" the next thing that will thus require to "fix" something else and so on and so forth 😄

[JackHargreav]

I hope all defense targets will be effected. Even the ones in Vallis.

[Behradmansouri]

While we're at it, can we make it so that baruuk losses restraint by giving allies desolate hand charges? (currently it only depletes when hitting enemies). Especially now that defence objectives act as another desolate hand magnet, it feels almost punishing letting allies walk to close to you and slow your restraint gain without any payoff.

[VerminLord722]

On 2020-04-03 at 3:05 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

DE, I hope that you know that you're effectively hamstringing the Vazarin School with this. This was effectively the only reasons players like myself use Vazarin.

[spicyframe420]

Just go and delete Gara. Just do this, delete her from cetus drop table, delete her from inventory of every registered looser. 

capping it anywhere lower then 90% will delets this frame from the game. 

You are missing yet again the POINT  To run solo SS and do the 17 waves with Gara - require idiotic level of micromanagement every ONE MINUTE 

(actually this one minute micromanagement required everywhere you use her)

This is what I was talking before, please for the love of god  play in your game, it's great it's fun it's interesting. 

 

Take Gara - after forma her seven times coming up with the maximum possible duration while keeping the efficiency at some what tolerable levels you go to SS mission, now what ? 

get to the Optilink placement part (while refreshing your 2 with your 4 every  55 second  building that shield what helps with sentinels) throw your 2 on it and .................................... It dies, then you die because your 2 dose cover only 90% DR, after wave 6 this hardly enough to keep your optilik alive till wave 17. 

So you throw your 4 before you place  optilink and then drop your 2 on it, but hey there's this mechanic which cause your 2 refresh on you if you place it on object, sounds great right ?, not really there's tiny catch, if you throw your 2 on your self and your 2 which on you runs out before you throw your 2 on the object / ally / enemy , even with 1 second delay, the moment target which had your 2 on dies, disappears the 2 on you will be gone. 

so basically when you throw 4 the moment you need place your optilink to build up the defense  you throw 2 on it and wait about 55 second till the scan reaches 100%, now the time it take to cast your 4 is 12 second, and the time on your 2 while you cast 4 ticking , tik tok. You ending up with no 2 on your self with all the damage from it being gone. and you die or you spend ten minutes to build up the at least 500k damage (oh yeah scary numbers right ?) it's nothing after wave 8, after wave 11  one million damage from your 2 is hardly a tiny support. 

The micromanagement which require efficient soloing is the following - You  throw your 4 when you need to place optilink and pray to god there's enough enemy to build up at lest 50k health on your 4 then you wait 20-25 seconds in and break wall to recast your 4 and refresh your 2 so you won't loose that damage on your 2. 

Do you think there's a lot of people willing to do this ? and The frame like gara whom literally a glass cannon can survive in this game with less then 90% dr ? To the hell with SS, go do the arbitration survival, solo for one hour. With her 90% dr she melts if you don't play like jumpy monkey. 

But my stat stick - it's nothing in SS since you still need kill sentinals with your melee for the best efficiency and there's enemy who take no damage from her 2

Soloing SS will take 40 minutes at best with gara. 

 

 

Please DE Do not, literally, delete Warframes who are old, good and loved by the community for the sake of an event which gonna last 20 more days. 

Thank you. 

 

 

Oh it's the defend targets. I'm sorry i won't delete message but Yeah i guess i  can live with 50dr, it's gonna make it even more micromanage. 

[TaigenRaine]

On 2020-04-03 at 6:51 PM, Julian_Skies said:

There is nothing to fix about objectives getting 1-shot. If your objective is getting 1-shot you have literally overstayed your welcome in an endless mission.

It's what the design of endless-type missions in any game is about. At one point it's going to outscale you. Objective getting one-shot? Mission's finally outscaled you. 

Lets look at that word - endless.  It implies something that can, potentially, have no end.  If a mission is designed so that something you have no control over - aka - the objective, instantly dies at some point, then that is not endless.  If you can't damage enemies anymore, or your frame is getting rinsed a lot, yes that means it is probably time to go, but that give incentive to improve your build, or get better at your strategy and give it another go.  If something within the level that you have no control over is what is causing you to fail, then there is no incentive to come back.  It is the end, and that is the exact opposite of endless.

So no, 'objective getting one shot?'  The mission did not outscale you, the mission outscaled itself.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

On 2020-04-03 at 10:05 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

Numbers need to become percentages in most cases, or flat + %, excluding those that already have flat values in all other cases (Oberon, Wisp, etc.). Otherwise, there will be no way to make it scale to level. Flat numbers will always be overpowered for lower levels, useless for higher levels, or both.

Also, things that give immunity to allies should give %DR for that duration on defense targets (Harrow's Covenant, Vazarin Protective Dash, etc.) In addition, all of the listed sources of DR need to stack multiplicatively with each other, or to have the max amount increased. Otherwise, Frost and Gara are still better in every possible way, giving 100% DR for as long as their respective abilities are active.

It's a good way to start the conversation, but also a bit confusing that the team would start off with flat numbers, given how much they have recognized the need for scaling abilities in other areas (Vauban's Nail Grenade, for example). Even so, just knowing that the team is looking at this and want to make it better is good news.

1 hour ago, TaigenRaine said:

Lets look at that word - endless.  It implies something that can, potentially, have no end.  If a mission is designed so that something you have no control over - aka - the objective, instantly dies at some point, then that is not endless.  If you can't damage enemies anymore, or your frame is getting rinsed a lot, yes that means it is probably time to go, but that give incentive to improve your build, or get better at your strategy and give it another go.  If something within the level that you have no control over is what is causing you to fail, then there is no incentive to come back.  It is the end, and that is the exact opposite of endless.

So no, 'objective getting one shot?'  The mission did not outscale you, the mission outscaled itself.

Not being able to kill enemies/dying repeatedly is the indicator you are done in Survival, not Defense. Defense is all about protecting a point with a fixed health pool. If you go to the point that enemies can kill it in a single hit, and you didn't build your team to prevent it being hit at all, then you should have left at an earlier point.

I can, with just 2 other players, scale infinitely with enemy level in a Defense mission. Two Limbos, and either a Gara or a Vauban. With two Limbos, you can permanently protect the point as long as enemies don't overwhelm you, and both Gara and Vauban can scale their damage infinitely, preventing the Limbos (Limbi?) from being overwhelmed.

DE has no need to make the Defense target scale as the mission scales. If you want something like that, try the new Excavation. It has scaling health values, and IIRC there's no cap.

[TaigenRaine]

8 minutes ago, -AoN-CanoLathra- said:

Not being able to kill enemies/dying repeatedly is the indicator you are done in Survival, not Defense. Defense is all about protecting a point with a fixed health pool. If you go to the point that enemies can kill it in a single hit, and you didn't build your team to prevent it being hit at all, then you should have left at an earlier point.

I can, with just 2 other players, scale infinitely with enemy level in a Defense mission. Two Limbos, and either a Gara or a Vauban. With two Limbos, you can permanently protect the point as long as enemies don't overwhelm you, and both Gara and Vauban can scale their damage infinitely, preventing the Limbos (Limbi?) from being overwhelmed.

DE has no need to make the Defense target scale as the mission scales. If you want something like that, try the new Excavation. It has scaling health values, and IIRC there's no cap.

The point to this reply was in response to them removing things that can adequately protect a defense target.  If they remove everything that can do so, then the mission is going to out scale itself, and there will be nothing you can do about it.  The person I replied to was seeming to make the case that this was alright because if the mission objective is getting one shot, the mission outpaced you and you shouldn't be able to do anything to stop that.

Also, all this focus on a game mode that is to some extent 'easy-mid'-level content.  In most cases defense/excavation is trivial for anyone with access to the frames and mods required to do many of the tactics they are trying to nerf here - except for people trying to marathon it for excessive amounts of time.  Taking a Gara or a Limbo or a Frost to Hydron is entirely overkill.  Tweaking abilities for those missions is silly, about the only time I am really pulling Vazarin out to defend something is long rift fissure excavations and rank 5 fortuna excavations.  So to take out the nerf hammer for this sort of content is very much an over-reaction.  There are already game modes that challenge the frost/gara/limbo supremacy:  Disruption and Sorties.  I laugh hard when I see a Frost or a Limbo come to these game modes, because they just don't get it.  In Disruption their abilities are at best a momentary annoyance to the demolisher... and in a sortie the defense target walks right on out of the bubble.  The point is there are all sorts of game modes... and it seriously is fine to let Frost/Gara/Limbo/Vazarin be king of defense, and let them collect dust in all other content.  Healing should be more evenly applied across the board, but the nerfs need to stop.  Vazarin should have it's 5 seconds of invulnerability and a percentage based healing amount (can be lower, but still should be worth it), and if someone really wants to wreck their hand void dashing for 2 hours to protect a target - then I guess that is fine with me.  

[M3rc_33]

Another focus school bites the dust. Surely DE must know that >95% of the players use zenurik? Now the appeal to use vazarin is about the same as unairu and Madurai = non-existant. Surely there must be a better way to do this. In sortie/arbitrations/long excavations/defense you really get to enjoy vazarin and at a cost as well. Melee combo efficiency and energizing dash. To some extent temporal blast. Why do they randomly nerf-hammer down on useful nieche-stuff only to leave equally and if not far more powerful abilities/weapons/interactions etc. elsewhere. It is as if they created an event and then had to call some of their previous work "exploits" only to nerf it into the ground. Next time just release underwhelming stuff so we do not get to enjoy it and get used to it. Thank you.

[Opyt]

Please don't do this, I love my Vazarin dash.

Defense target can be as high as 72k, 500 hp/s is pretty awful lol.  Like running Magus Nourish on an Inaros lmao.

[(NSW)Rare_Shipping_Bird]

I really hope they realize that Vazarin is not the one that needs nerfing at all. Especially on Switch, I can feel that this is gonna really hurt us Nintendo players as the playerbase is low and you usually end up soloing defense missions nine times out of ten during starchart completion

[Zanagoth]

Event still broken in two dozen ways

DE: I sleep

People healing defense targets

DE:

[Aisu9]

nerf vazarin... check
all players use zenurik again ? destroy the energy regen

[(NSW)Katsuro]

2 hours ago, (NSW)Rare_Shipping_Bird said:

I really hope they realize that Vazarin is not the one that needs nerfing at all. Especially on Switch, I can feel that this is gonna really hurt us Nintendo players as the playerbase is low and you usually end up soloing defense missions nine times out of ten during starchart completion

they can just use frost

[Talinthis]

i really cant figure out why garuda shouldnt heal. she will be the only one that cant lol. wisp puts down a permanent healing mote for the defense target that is capped at a regen rate but you cant do the same for garuda talk about weiiirddd

[FoxSock]

On 2020-04-03 at 11:29 PM, Lakyus said:

Interesting. Hoping for a nerf to the defense targets' survivability overall, so it does make a difference to use these abilities.

Limbo's augment was not listed?

Limbo cannot use banish on defense objectives, therefore he cannot heal them.

[(NSW)Greybones]

On 2020-04-04 at 8:05 AM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Earlier this week we were ‘Tip’ped off to a problem of our own creation:

haha. Dumb jokes 😋 I cringe-smiled at familiar humour. Now I’ll read the actual post 😅

Edit: Wow, this looks really interesting 😯. Discussions within DE surrounding how it’ll balance and what the impact will be seem like they’ll be intense and fascinating. Very curious to see what you come up with, and stay safe!

[azndrifter204]

On 2020-04-03 at 4:39 PM, OceanDragon said:

Honestly. Why were these nerfs even needed?

With all due respect, don't you guys at DE have better things to do than nerf something that isn't hurting the game in any way?

EDIT: Let me add some actual feedback to this.

This is not going to be a positive change. In warframe, we have powerful abilities that will trivialize these missions either way. These will be the best unless you ruin their functionality entirely. Trying to make other abilities similar, but significantly weaker won't change anything. Why go with a frame that has some utility, yet still has a chance to fail, when you can go with a frame that will ensure your success 100%.

In fact, what you'll end up doing if you push these changes out is you'll reduce the diversity. Biggest example of this is Vazarin change. With people using Vazarin, they can take any frame to a mission with a vulnerable objective and still feel fairly safe doing so. After it gets nerfed, they won't be able to take those frames and will feel forced to take frames like Limbo, Volt, Frost etc. It also reduces the value of using Vazrain to basically 0, but focus balance is a different topic (which would probably be a way better use of design time if you improve the underused schools there).

I hope this is a clear explanation why these are nerfs. I really hope you actually take any feedback into consideration with these changes.

i don't go on here very often to post but having supported the game putting money towards a game i support, and then this nerf to vazarin, i feel like i have been robbed of my hard earned money, i strongly do not support this. you don't mess with people who invest into your company!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this post i quoted takes the words out of what i was thinking. i can't support this decision and leaving warframe is now an option. bc the diversity will be completely removed. playing limbo, or frost is not very fun compared to bringing a glass cannon to a high level mission, and being able to heal a target when it gets low.

it never worked on your up links your stupid event that brought this up. don't change it.

i have done a lot of testing after this announcement, it is not possible to play high level missions with the changes you propose. specifically arbitration.  your ruining the game for those who support your company and who actually play the game.

[stomackface]

Vazarin protective dash is the one tool that can be a scale tipping point in a clutch scenario. I personally like endurance runs lets say in arbitrations as i enjoy higher level enemies and active playstyle. If you want to change it, change it from 5 to 3 seconds but not like that puny number. If you are given a moving obective to protect that behaves like a monkey on crack no frost bubble, no khora cage etc will "heal" / protect it properly, not to speak of being able to keep it alive while reviving the 3 other tenno who died in wave 10.
I get you want not "the perfect" solution but multiple solutions but even when frames that can heal would stack - on wave 80 any enemy of any faction basically shreds the objective to pieces when left alone for a sec.
 

This stings a lot. I thought you were making a game about hero moments and being able to protect someone / something / teammates while overcoming a piling horde of enemies. This feels like you are taking away my hero moments. I like the dmg reduction discussion since Nezha eg is somewhat trivializing the gameplay on higher lvl content, but this is a frame that is under my control, while a moving objective that listens to "jump around - house of pain" on repeat is not.
 

[NekroArts]

26 minutes ago, stomackface said:

If you are given a moving obective to protect that behaves like a monkey on crack no frost bubble, no khora cage etc will "heal" / protect it properly
 

Sortie defense npc acts like a monkey on crack, Arbitration npc follows a random player switching every now and then. 

[stomackface]

vor 1 Minute schrieb NekroArts:

Sortie defense npc acts like a monkey on crack, Arbitration npc follows a random player switching every now and then. 

While you are correct and thanks for pointing out  - you still need to figure then who it follows and why its on the other corner of the map all of a sudden. The solution would be to stay in one position? That would be the kind of gameplay DE doesnt want to reward (aka active playstyle) cause it kinda needs you to gather in one place.

Sortie defense is doable cause you can revive the npc while arbi defense insta fails when the npc dies.

[ModerateConservative]

Instead of nerfing or changing effects because players are using them. Ask why did we make a scaling event that has the most tackiest enemies in the game, and is only a mobile defense mission. And your knee jerk reaction is to NERF the frames that are used in order to not fail the mission, due to horrible enemy scaling, especially for the railjack missions. Even then your thirst for blood has not been quenched, and now you are making changes based on form over function and a subjective descriptions based on this so called "flavor reasons", the head scratching proposed Garuda changes to defense targets. Stop using the form over function route and just make the changes in order for us, the players, to keep the defense targets alive. Stop trying to alter a problem that is not a problem at all, and all that these proposed changes are going to do is make your player base resent you, DE as a whole, even more. Stop abusing us and just listen to our recommendations. I have recommendations on what to do about Scarlet Spear, but I am not going to upload it here, as it could use some more refining; that and it is 2:15 in the morning and I need to get some sleep

 

Here is another thing I wanted to mention. How is this a war? What depiction of sci-fi war, has people doing what we are doing right now? The only mission types that we are doing are glorified mobile defense missions. Personally I thought that this event would demonstrate sentient battle tactics and give us ways of attack and counterattack against the Sentients, eventually leading to trench warfare on both sides. (I really like WW1, and trench warfare is not often displayed) (On a side note I know the deadline was missed community created warframe, and I wanted to put my idea for the trench fighter warframe. If I should post the trench fighter frame idea here please let me know).

[Navarc]

I fully understand nerfing the Invulnerability of Vazarin, I would have definitely preferred it to be dmg reduction % rather than total vulnerability but.. You're removing the healing (honestly, the quantity you're giving it is negligible when a target is taking thousands of dmg per second, it's under 1% of the health sometimes), you're removing the invulnerability & we can't even stack it.
¿Are people allowed to play anything but Zenurik?

I've had so much fun with Vazarin in the past with range-revives, mass-revives, ranged AOE healing but you keep chipping away at it & even when we had all these abilities it was hardly used, it was still Zenurik > Madurai > Naramon > Zenurik > Unairu. Now it's melee-range I have to be to revive & heal people plus it's specific targets. But soon I can't even heal OR protect our defense objective? A single healing arcane, just any, pick any from any shop outdoes my entire maxed out focus school. That's not rewarding or respectful of the players invested time.
Why not something like 25% dmg reduction + 25% of max health healed over time (when maxed out) & can't be stacked? That's already a massive nerf but not making it not worth doing.

[Levanthan]

On 2020-04-03 at 5:34 PM, Voltage said:

I understand why this is coming to light, but the nerf to Vazarin really stings. 500 health over 5 seconds is quite terrible when enemies will be doing thousands of damage per second when you need that regen and invulnerability the most. These changes will benefit the low end, but heavily nerf the high end which is very sad.

These changes will reinforce the meta from back in Tower Void where you have a Frost (Prime) abusing the invulnerability phase on Snowglobe and spamming said Snowglobe for hours straight to keep static defense objects alive. I hope you consider this outcome and see how unhealthy it is to indirectly encourage this gameplay on higher end defensive missions.

And this is exactly why many warframes suck; they have flat number scaling on their abilities. So, if the ability is damage oriented or not "turn the AI off" levels of CC, it's garbage cuz it doesn't scale, especially when compared to frames with good abilities like Mesa, Saryn, etc.

[(PSN)MahdeH232]

On 2020-04-04 at 12:53 AM, Gendalph said:

How would this affect Eidolon hunting? Right now, Trinity is used there to keep lures alive, and this change would make Tridolon PUGs hell.

Just like they handled chroma, "deal with it, better to hit one frame and let others benefit" while actually nobody benefits lol...