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Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets


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Wowzers. Folks here are laying it on real thick. They have a point about flat numbers not scaling, and worrying that will go unheard.

HOLY CRAP, the hate is real in here.

I can see why DE starts to ignore these suggestions, fellas.

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So there will be no reason to run Vazaryn anymore, and it will be "use Limbo, or you're a noob that doesn't know what you're doing".  Brilliant.

Venari's healing aura is so incredibly underpowered that using the word "exploit" in association with it is totally insane.  Really anybody that knows what they're doing only uses it so that Venari wastes all her time healing rather than attacking the enemy.  No joke, it's literally that bad, and literally the only time I ever use its healing.  If you are to use the word "exploit" to describe defense tactics commonly used in Scarlet Spear, then Limbo's 2 and 4 combined with Mesa's 4 and/or Exodia Contagion are the relevant game mechanics.  And no, the added sentient adaptation mechanic has basically zero effect on that characterization, since Mesa and Contagion trivialize them.

PS: Since you don't seem to know your  own game, Mesa's 4 and Exodia Contation are FAR from the only damage mechanics that "exploit" Limbo's rift mechanic - they're just the ones that happen to have become meta for this horribly designed event.  So if you do nerf it, don't forget to take away all kinds of other fun we've been having.  Extremes are what make this game unique and exiting.  Please stop removing them - you're destroying your own game, one "re-balance" at a time.  I think you need to start with dialing down the extremes, rather than jumping straight to total removal in one step, as you've been doing these past several months.

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As a Vazarin main, this hurts. A lot. It also boggles the mind you didn't at least allow it to apply damage reduction instead of immunity. My suggestion: 50% damage reduction (like the other abilities), 12% scaling HP healed over the duration (i.e. 2% HP/s for 6s at max rank).

But generally, flat HP/s is terrible. In a Fissure mission on Hydron, for example, the cryopod has ~60000 HP. 100 HP/s is basically meaningless there. Of course Blessing at full effect would be totally crazy, but 100 HP/s is just as insane on the other end of the spectrum. All healing abilities on objectives should heal a percentage of the objective's max HP, as by the above number, 2% HP/s for a total of 10% over the duration of that HoT.

Edit: A bonus point to consider about Vazarin specifically, but which could be exanded to all the other abilities that will apply damage reduction to objectives: Vazarin is right now basically the only way to prevent an objective to be one-shot by a stray bullet  from a player under a radiation proc (e.g. radiation hazard in Sortie, radiation Kuva Luch). Without that, I don't think I'd ever want to do any defense, mobile defense etc in a Sortie with radiation hazard with random players, too often do they fail unless I maintain Vazarin's Protective Dash on the objective all the time (which, btw, is a full-time job to begin with). Therefore, I suggest all these damage reductions should in addition, on objectives only, grant total immunity to friendly fire from radiation debuffs.

Edited by Mephane
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39 minutes ago, IronHair said:

When I did defection sortie 3-4 days ago, solo with trin, IT DID NOT HEAL the defectors.
I had 4 die on me, thanks to split squads and stupid pathmaking before I finally finished the mission.

That may have changed, then, or it could be something exclusive to the Sortie. I distinctly remember rendering entire Defenction missions trivial by constantly healing the Defectors. Never used any battery charge on the Healing station, never lost a Kavor. Even had to heal one multiple times when he was stuck at spawn. But again - I'm going off fairly old information.

Either way, Kavor Defectors need to be addressed if we're talking about healing defence objectives. They are a defence objective.

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Garuda - Blood Siphon... ...Doesn’t apply, for flavor we think this shouldn’t.

I don't want to come off like a jerk, I've been really happy with a lot of the balance changes recently. ...But I'm pretty skeptical of this. Is it really "for flavor"? 

Why is Garuda's healing different "for flavor"? I interpret this as "it makes no sense to siphon 'life energy' from a living target to a mechanical one". So if this decision is based off of the lore of the game, why is Garuda's healing so different from every other frame's? How does a cat healing a defense objective by standing next to it make sense while an ability to drain and redistribute life energy not? In short, why does every other Warframe's healing powers repair machines except for Garuda?

The train of thought seems silly to me, which is what makes me think this is really about something else.

Is it something like... 

"Garuda can stack up multiple healing circles on top of a static defense objective, so no matter what value we set the healing at, a Garuda player will still be able to multiply that healing by creating more circles, making it difficult to effectively limit the healing of defense objectives without nerfing Garuda's healing ability in other scenarios (i.e limiting the number of active circles at a time)"? 

If so... that's fine. An appropriate healing interaction may be prohibitively difficult to put in place. You may not want to give Garuda's healing a radically different interaction with allies vs. defense objectives. You don't want to sacrifice other aspect's of Garuda's play for the sake of defense objectives (for example, limiting the number of total circles that can be active at once). Those things all make sense. But if this is really the case, please just say so instead of saying "for flavor".

Overall these changes are great, I think. As a Garuda player, I can't be that upset because I'm not in a worse spot than before. But the reasoning stated in the original post sounds like a bit of a cop out to me. As an avid Garuda player, that's frustrating. 

As a final note, just because it sounds like a cop out to me doesn't mean I think the author or design team meant it that way. I don't think anyone is being malicious. I just want the discussion around my favorite frame to be as candid as possible. 
 

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hace 20 horas, TheLexiConArtist dijo:

Protective Dash had its own challenge to use with the invulnerability. Its percentage health restoration lets it scale consistently with the target, not get completely outstripped based on the level range you're working with - and when that inevitably does get outscaled in endurance runs, you have to manage a targeted dash every 5 seconds, in an alternate form to upkeep what Limbo could do by simply pressing one button, maybe two if you're feeling spicy. Since you'll not want to abandon your loadout and fight purely as operator, this becomes an intricate dance - Fighting, transference, aim, crouch, jump, transference, back to fighting - in a tight loop of timing. It was actually skilful and engaging to weave that proper protection in with actually.. clearing the enemies you have to clear. Protective Dash should stay exactly as is so it can function as the Non Defender Frame's fallback option. Three frames out of more than 40 is not a good spread of viability when it comes to this.

So true, for now this is the only way to play long or high level missions that requires real skill, and really is engaging.

Have to dash squishy teammates, the target, and myself constantly,while timing the kills while taking care of all the hp numbers and location of teammates and target all the time, also focusing on kill eximus, ancients, or tanky enemies specially on arbitrations where also need to kill the drones before. really is so exiting defiant and fun.

Everything else on long missions is boring, just pres a button a couple of times, stay inside your little safe area and shot.

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How about Vazarin stays as it is but gets diminishing returns if you use it more than once every defense wave or two or something(maybe once every minute? I dunno). That way it still works as an emergency heal but stops working as "this objective will be both invincible and heal for 60% of it's health FOREVER."

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23 hours ago, OceanDragon said:

Honestly. Why were these nerfs even needed?

With all due respect, don't you guys at DE have better things to do than nerf something that isn't hurting the game in any way?

EDIT: Let me add some actual feedback to this.

This is not going to be a positive change. In warframe, we have powerful abilities that will trivialize these missions either way. These will be the best unless you ruin their functionality entirely. Trying to make other abilities similar, but significantly weaker won't change anything. Why go with a frame that has some utility, yet still has a chance to fail, when you can go with a frame that will ensure your success 100%.

In fact, what you'll end up doing if you push these changes out is you'll reduce the diversity. Biggest example of this is Vazarin change. With people using Vazarin, they can take any frame to a mission with a vulnerable objective and still feel fairly safe doing so. After it gets nerfed, they won't be able to take those frames and will feel forced to take frames like Limbo, Volt, Frost etc. It also reduces the value of using Vazrain to basically 0, but focus balance is a different topic (which would probably be a way better use of design time if you improve the underused schools there).

I hope this is a clear explanation why these are nerfs. I really hope you actually take any feedback into consideration with these changes.

this person's post is beautiful. DE please do not nerf diversity.

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As goodfaith as these change's intentions are, they ultimately mean nothing for content in Ceres and T4 Void.

Please stop trying to balance this game around Mars, it's not cute.

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1 hour ago, XxGekasxX said:

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

 

Stop crying about the 500s

I'm afraid you right and this topic is not here to let our words. So we might as well leave them for posterity.

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Vazarin dash is too op and deserve for this nerf. no invul is right

but 500HP none-scaling for most healing skills are over-nerfed. Target in high level missions has 70K HP, 500 cap is useless

I think 5%~10% cap is reasonable

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On 2020-04-03 at 10:44 PM, FerdinantFreez said:

When Scott explained the reasoning for nerfing Itzal Blink he said that it was required to give us more options with archwing as Itzal had superior mobility making all other archwings inferior. When you nerfed catchmoon you explained it in a similar fashion stating that it was the most used secondary invalidating other ''in slot'' weapons. How can you not see that protective dash gives us the freedom to choose any frame and go to any mission to play and have fun and be fine. It gives us options.. back to 2015 frost bubble spam i guess, great design DE, solid logic.

The funny thing is, Vazarin is rarely used anyway. Most people run Zenurik for obvious reasons, and I don't blame them (nor would I want any nerf to Zenurik - other schools need similarly interesting utility). So this is not a situation where one item or ability dominates everything, but rather one niche ability that allows an alternative approach. It is also very high maintenance and requires more skill than "press 2 and 4 once per minute", so why shouldn't it be competitive with Cataclysm, Snow Globe etc?

2 hours ago, FlashS19 said:

Vazarin dash is too op and deserve for this nerf. no invul is right

but 500HP none-scaling for most healing skills are over-nerfed. Target in high level missions has 70K HP, 500 cap is useless

I think 5%~10% cap is reasonable

Indeed, and it should grant the same 50% damage reduction as the abilities in the 2nd table. I mean come on DE, it is such an obvious thing to do.

On 2020-04-03 at 10:58 PM, Hera.Ci said:

Right now a Vazarin player can keep an objective alive indefinitely against enemies of any level

As can, for example, Limbo. I don't see the issue being able to keep the objective alive indefinitely, the issue is that too few choice exist to enable that, and these changes will worsen that situation.

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23 hours ago, NekroArts said:

Maybe. What Scarlet Spear showed me is that Limbo has his own flaw where he has to recast Cataclysm thus leaving the defense open for a brief moment. That brief moment can result in the defense objective taking a good chunk of damage. If the wave last longer than that of a modded Limbo you have to leave the defense objective vulnerable.

On ground, it lasts long enough to not need recasting. It trivializes ground considerable. Neither Frost nor Gara have indestructible defense abilities that deny 100% damage like Limbo.

You put up a Frost bubble and it has HP and can be destroyed. Gara's wall has HP and can even be partially broken. Limbo's bubble lasts for the duration and enemies can't destroy it! I think that's OK given that Frost has CC and Gara has Splinter Storm that is castable on defense targets.

What's not OK is nerfing defense abilities of other frames when Limbo can create indestructible long last bubbles that deny all 100% damage from enemies to anything (including defense targets).

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1 hour ago, XxGekasxX said:

NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE, the purpose of this post is to communicate our intentions

 

Stop crying about the 500s

It's not about being 500, it's about being a fixed number.

That will either be too good for low levels or completely useless at higher levels. It simply doesn't scale.

As they said "NUMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE". But what's needed here isn't a change in the numbers, it's a change to make it scale properly, like for example "Heal x% over n seconds".

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7 minutes ago, nslay said:

On ground, it lasts long enough to not need recasting.

That works when the defense target is close to the center relative to the shrink rate, but in Scarlet Spear you can get oplinks that are placed further away from Cataclysms center. 

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I think this is a double-edged sword.

the good thing about this? a lot of frames are now desirable for defense-oriented missions. picture Harrow's Penance with an Ignis, or, even crazier, a kuva kohm. apparently, the heal is capped at 50 HP per hit. the kuva kohm spews 12 pellets per shot at full spool. that easily becomes 24 pellets, or more, but let's keep it at 24 for calculation's sake. it fires over 4 times per second at full spool. this is excluding firerate mods or penance itself, which is insane on kkohm. so, ignoring firerate modifiers, we're talking about 24x50x4 heal per second: 4800HP per second; and both KKohm and Penance can keep firing and working for extended periods. let's not even consider the fact that KKohm has innate punchthrough and will very easily hit multiple foes due to the spread, adding a bunch more damage instances to the calculation. my Penance lasts over 80 seconds. my KKohm has Primed Shotgun Ammo Mutation + Carrier, and my Harrow has Shotgun Scavenger, so even this insanity won't have me running on dry magazines.

5000+ heal per sec for minutes on end? ... hell yes, Harrow is now worth using on Defense missions.

Wisp is insane too. plop a flower on the objective, BAM, it's gonna heal. mine heals 94HP/s. infinite duration; just passive HP, and you can teleport into it to double-range cast her 3, which CC and blinds everything in range. yay. just. yay.

Broberon or Trinity, frames that don't need zenurik, can both heal the objective and use vazarin, for very effective healing.

I think this is a very positive change for the game, making a lot of missions very interesting to play given new meta options.

The bad part, is that this devalues Vazarin while further enforcing Zenurik as the de-facto most useful Focus. for general play, there's three main schools of focus: Zenurik, Vazarin, and Naramon. Zen gives free energy (and completely enables a LOT of builds), Vazarin gives healing and i-frames (insane synergies with things like Chroma or Inaros among others) and instant heals, making it a desirable support option; and Naramon's combo decay is also bonkers for SOME strategies. i.e. my Wisp with destreza prime is a bomb on Disruption because I build up my combo, forget the sword exists for a few minutes, then go to town on a target with 12x blood rush + weep wounds CO red crit spam. even on sortie 3, this melts bombers like BUTTER.

problem is that Zenurik applies to every frame, and even reduces power attack cost, so it even tramples into Naramon's turf. it hilariously can supply energy to heal, which also, hilariously, steps on Vazarin's turf. and even MORE hilariously, the energy output is so good, ability spam is so viable that you probably will be able to just CC or nuke everything nonstop and not require any healing in the first place. please, have you seen what a energy-efficient long-duration vortex vauban does? what use is there for healing if every enemy on the map is unable to cause damage? meanwhile Vazarin is niche because few are the frames where Zenurik isn't flat-out better, and Naramon is even MORE niche to melee frames - melee frames, mind you, that often, by design, have abilities that improve or enable melee; abilities cost energy, so, Zenurik is often better even here.

hitting Vazarin like this is brutal because it further opens the gap between zenurik and other focus schools. it isn't even funny anymore, lol. XD

if I could change Vazarin, I'd keep it % based, but instead make it a lower % over a MUCH larger duration. imagine healing 5% HP for 25 seconds? Zenurik restores 5 energy per sec for 25 secs (excluding when you stay IN the bubble) which amounts to 125 energy per use - a LOT - that is enough to basicaly refill full energy on some frames, or almost do so. 5%HP/s won't save your butt if a group of enemies focus fire on you, but it allows you to A - not spam the ability constantly and avoid disrupting combat flow, B - provide long-duration regen for drawn out fights, instead of burst healing (this synergizes quite well with adaptation, and there's a reason it's popular despite instant healing existing: it's passive and does not actively require input, while being much weaker in emergency situations). it being a % would automaticaly make it great against sortie-level objectives where it would outpace most other options, thus keeping its niche usage but NOT devaluing the use of healing abilities.

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Uh, guys. If I'm not mistaken mobile defense terminals and your usual cryopod defense objectives do have innate HP recovery that scales with level (or at least is pretty fast). The only objectives that don't have self healing are Kuva terminals, excavators and the OP links.

Also, the problem with healing is that it MUST NOT surpass enemy damage output at lvl 30-40 otherwise we have mostly an AFK farm, which DE clearly wants to prevent, 

Edited by HolySeraphin
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7 minutes ago, NekroArts said:

That works when the defense target is close to the center relative to the shrink rate, but in Scarlet Spear you can get oplinks that are placed further away from Cataclysms center. 

While it's true that the OpLinks are spread out, this is not enough to matter. Play with well-modded Limbos on ground and you will see that shrink rate/duration and all that jazz don't matter at all. You will not take a single HP of damage to your OpLink all the way to Condrix #17.

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Lowest I'd accept for Vazarin Protective Dash is 1s invuln, 2% heal, stacking, on defense objectives. Still challenging, but able to push to recover, especially as a team effort. Some may find that too low, still.. but it sure beats the proposal.

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I can't speak for the Vazarin-Users but I think working this topic through and giving Warframes the ability to either heal or block (some) incomming damage for defense targets was a good idea. Combined with the HP-Scaling of said targets, defending in high-level missions will be much easier. One could think, you guys wanted to keep this game more lore-friendly in terms of durability and who-can-be-affected-by-what. Removing immunity to liches was a good first step to it.

But I don't see how you want to balance Limbo in this turmoil.

First, he is either to trolly or specific to be played, one day later he gets unnecessarily nerfed, because he is not intended to affect sentients. Wasn't the Void something the sentients are weak to? Or is the Rift per se something completely different than the Void itself? I mean, If I recall right, he is a mathmagician and can banish things into another layer or existence.

I think keeping it the way it is won't work out so good, but I do not wish for a hasty rework of Limbo for his mains sake.

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Very nice. More options.  More diversity.  More playstyle enabling.  Not less.

Good for DE design team to be humble and wise in admitting when they're wrong at knee-jerk "oh that's not intended. delete it!"

The Gara nerf needs to be tested for ARBITRATION extraction/defense.  Also huge warning.  People are going to be pissed off when their objective suddenly die way faster than before.

Edited by ssh83
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Every healing ability SHOULD be a percentage and have DR, as a lot of users had pointed out. Since you are open to those changes, I don't have much to say, since I got the vazari nerf directly but compensated with more options to do it. The only flaw is that, flat hp instead percentages and no DR for almost anything. DR should be high to compensate too. If you keep going for flat hp, invulnerability then is the choice, because the numbers given doesn't match the hp of high tier endless runs at 1 hour.

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