Kuva Bramma feedback and Discussion

[StormWolf1337]

The new Bramma changes are terrible but I can at least forgive them for not killing it completely. Still, thanks D.E, hours invested and 6 forma down, thank you for having no respect towards my invested time. A couple people complain and they nerf our favorite weapon, why don't they apply the nerf to them only instead since they're all clamoring so badly for it? We were all pretty happy with the original Bramma..

Well we're all gonna simply switch to Carrier/Vigilante supplies to almost get past that ridiculous 15 to 5 ammo pool, that's not a nerf, that's them making an awesome weapon almost useless unless you can counter it. Guess what, doesn't make me any more accurate/conservative with the Bramma, I still aim at the floor/feet when necessary and bombard enemies with almost 6 arrows at once using my Gauss' 4.

There's less going on visually with it which is just a shame, I still have to deal with Embers/Vaubans nuking my eyes a 1000x times worse whenever I'm playing a DF/Survival mission. Not to mention, Saryns are still nuking worse than anything a Bramma could ever do, that's true 'no-fun-for-anyone-else-nuke' and not forgetting Novas are still devolving my screen into chaos every time I even poke an enemy. This is surely what a PVE game needs, make the most fun bits less fun, that's sure to keep the loyal players here and draw in new ones, less fun 🙂 I find it amusing as hell though, months from now and the Kuva Bramma will still be our favorite and most used weapon, what's D.E gonna do after they realize they simply can't make us not use it?

It is the most fun weapon they've made after all, most others are pretty boring low-tech projectile guns from the 21st century with nearly no fun-factor. Maybe they'll try to kill it some more by making it into a wholly new weapon like the Arca Plasmor. Who knows, all I know is most missions I've been in since the update has had a Bramma, the boom bow isn't going anywhere, just accept it. If you don't like the Bramma then by all means don't use it or exit from missions with the Bramma, maybe play solo, don't kill our fun because you think you can't seem to have any.

Also me favoring an AOE-bow is not lessened in any way by someone liking another weapon so why do I have to suffer for their preferences? They seem no more important to me than every other player and thus the wants of the many shouldn't be killed by the gripes of a loud few, especially so considering that most players are using the Bramma and seem to deeply favor it, you do you. Regardless of your personal opinions about the Bramma it's still the best weapon to ever come to WF and one of the only few that's fun to use when surrounded by lvl 100 and higher heavies on an endless survival or enhanced enemies in a sortie.

[(PSN)Deeceem]

Fun thing is today I explored some alternatives to the Bramma in preperation for the nerf coming to console. Turns out the Kuva Ogris does pretty much the same as the Bramma in terms of bombing trash - which most enemies are - into a different time period. I even outdamaged two unnerfed Bramma users with it with the "wrong" element on 38% without even trying on Hildryn and the Napalm augment (which proccs heat btw) causes even more eye cancer than the Bramma. But hey, maybe they'll complain about that one next. Anyways, try the Kuva Ogris if you want a change of pace - feels and performs pretty similar to the Bramma except that you might use a melee for a level 100 Nox and build it differently.

Also, dude, make some paragraphs.

Edit: Thanks.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Kulstar is your new best friend.

[Drachnyn]

At this point DE just hates primaries being good.

[Tyreaus]

42 minutes ago, StormWolf1337 said:

A couple people complain and they nerf our favorite weapon, why don't they apply the nerf to them only instead since they're all clamoring so badly for it? We were all pretty happy with the original Bramma..

While I wasn't one of the people who complained, I was one of the people who got to walk through an exterminate mission past the bodies from the Mirage using a Bramma. The people using the weapon do affect other people.

I don't agree with the direction DE took with the nerf, I personally would have preferred making it explode only on direct hits so that there's a bit of skill-reward situation going on. But the point still stands: it affects people outside those using it. And just about any argument put forth to those affected, e.g. "just play solo", goes both ways, so they're not terribly productive statements.

[Avadir]

nah my bramma still outperform most primaries just gonna aim alittle better than before and that 5 ammo pull can be mitigated by ammo mutation

[Twilight-Knight]

I see no need to nerf that weapon. If they make it weaker, then why tf baza prime is still such a disappoinment ?

 

[xcrimsonlegendx]

I have ammo mutation on and frankly I didn't notice a difference.

[(XBOX)ShonOfDawn]

19 hours ago, (PS4)UltraKardas said:

Cause 99% of what you say is blatantly incorrect with only literally dozens of examples to the contrary.

Brilliant argumentations I must say. Jesus...

So, of course after I invalidate your argumentation about why Bramma's power is justifiable compared to other primaries because of "power progression", you immediately go back to "Bramma is justifiable because frames can do AoE better than weapons". So, let me ask you this, if Bramma is the only weapon that can compete with AoE frames, what's the point of any other primary, or secondary? If AoE frames are truly the status quo, why don't we drop this charade and just make all weapons AoE, except two or three snipers to deal with the oh so relevant "weak point bosses"? Yeah we would need to modify the mechanics of around 200 weapons, but that's justifiable and doable, isn't it?

This is not a competition between frames and weapons. That competition is a part of the bigger issue, but you need to understand that Bramma (in its pre-nerf version, the nerf proposed by DE partially fixes the issue) and weapons like it that become unquestioned best in slot, just damage the experience. At this point I really don't know how to make it more understandable than that. People always aim at the highest obtainable power, and if that is exclusively and universally a nuke frame/immortal frame, a high damage AoE primary and a high range melee, the 42 frame choices become 7 and the 100+ primary choices become 5. And now you'll say "just buff the others to match the level of the Bramma, to increase choice". As stated uncountable times, that is not feasible. A rifle won't magically become better than an explosive, because if they both one shot, the rifle will still kill just one (maybe 2 with punch through) enemies at a time, against the AoE's "everything in 8 meters".

Currently, there's just no better weapon than the Bramma at general play. You'll say "but muh bosses" but I've already covered that in my previous post, part that of course you promptly ignored. You say the Lenz is a competitor, with an associated slew of assumptions of my skill level and my evident inexperience with the game because I'm impressed by a Bramma one-shotting a lvl 120 gunner. Which is just hilarious and childlike, I thought we were having a civil discussion. My bad, the footage I showed was pre scaling changes. Still, here's a more believable comparison between the Lenz and the Bramma, with your same setup. (btw, nice red crit + slash proc, how many takes did that require to capture? Assuming 3 arrows, 125% crit chance from maxed point strike which you didn't have, a full 30% vigilante bonus even if more likely it's 20% from a sentinel stat stick, and 30% hunter munition chance, that chance for a single one is 1-(1-0.25*0.3*0.3)^3=6.5%, I find it strange for it to be just a lucky coincidence...)

Spoiler

 

 

Quote

 

I think the videos are pretty self explanatory.

On 2020-06-10 at 8:42 PM, -Sandman said:

I don't agree with that and my raid example is pertinent to that. The mechanics of the mission did not solely revolve around how fast you can shoot/kill the boss, and many mechanics currently in game are similar and as I said, for me, the length of time I take to down a boss does not make it more or less interesting. And designing and building those types of mechanics are not insurmountable either. Even if we were to focus more on a subsection of a fight, namely the vulnerability period: If when soloing an Eidolon to the point where it takes me quite a few more shots to destroy a node, that does not make it more interesting for me than when I am in squad where it gets one shot. And even if the one shotting was an issue for me, I would simply make my own squad accordingly rather than lobby for all players to conform to my style; which is further exacerbated by the fact that acquisition and refinement of the items required to produce that result is time consuming and not the same as say... having to press a different key. This type of argument is self defeating in my opinion; it's dissonant to say something is negatively impacting my experience so I want it removed/changed but the result just means it ends up negatively impacting someone else's player experience with no option for them to revert.    

I do see your point. I personally haven't played the raids, but I'm somewhat familiar with the mechanics through some research. Coordination and timing functional to an objective are surely a way to provide engagement and challenge that transcends killing enemies, however, that can only apply to communicating groups, and as such those mechanics aren't totally applicable to normal content, which I think is the greatest offender in terms of stale, repetitive gameplay. In normal, public gameplay, which is the essence of what warframe is about, you surely cannot rely on coordination (sometimes even friendship doors are a problem...).

So, how do you make something like survival or defense less dominated by nukes through just mechanics? Special enemies with counters are an example. But how can they do what they are supposed to, when they just die instants after spawning? Environmental hazards might be another way, but there are frames that even without the need of energy are completely untouched by the concept itself of death. Adding more or easier failure states, to detach failure from death, would simply tighten the meta even further. One way or another, normal mechanics in endless modes always fall back on defending, killing, or not dying, and all 3 of them can be completely trivialized by a specific frames. 

Let's talk bosses instead. Here, mechanics are a bit more usable, but they run the risk of becoming gimmicky, and switching the encounter from fighting the boss, to fighting the mechanic. Exploiter and Kela are such examples: you spend a disproportionate amount of time being a thermia courier and a button-shooter more than actually dealing with the boss, which expropriates combat of its identity by casting aside the actual fight. Profit Taker on the other hand is a boss done right, because it is a prolonged, constant and hectic fighting experience. The ropalolyst as well deals with mechanics in an enjoyable way: despite having short vulnerability phases, the way to bring down that invulnerability involves the boss dynamically.

In all this rambling I'd like to get one point across: while bosses somehow can be made interesting (but still utterly dominated by immortal frames), they still comprise a very small portion of the content, which instead relies exclusively (with Disruption being the only exception) on kill-based horde mechanics, and those are very hard to make engaging when gear can shut down enemies before they even get in sight. Because of this, some changes that negatively impact other players are necessary. Frames such as Saryn, Mesa, Equinox, Limbo and Inaros completely destroy enemy-player interactions by trivializing them, because of unchecked AoE or passive immortality.

[DrBorris]

So is it like... actually unusable? Or is it another case of catchmoon where it still out performs nearly all weapons in its class but is no longer a universal solution to all problems. 

Yes, it is worse, that is what nerfs do. Are you judging it based on what it was or on what it is. What Bramma was is irrelevant, all that matters is the present and how the Bramma performs next to its competition today. 

[hooperinius]

It was gonna get nerfed, now lets see them buff some of the other weapons. Get rid of kohms silly trigger speed windup and add a bit more crit to karak for example.

[SenorClipClop]

12 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

A couple people complain ... We were all pretty happy with the original Bramma.

The confirmation bias is strong with this one.

[LokiTheCondom]

 

22 hours ago, DrBorris said:

So is it like... actually unusable? Or is it another case of catchmoon where it still out performs nearly all weapons in its class but is no longer a universal solution to all problems. 

Yes, it is worse, that is what nerfs do. Are you judging it based on what it was or on what it is. What Bramma was is irrelevant, all that matters is the present and how the Bramma performs next to its competition today. 

Nothing's changed with the Bramma, really. The charge rate and primary explosion damage isn't affected in any way. OP's overexaggerating. But hey, people gotta find a way to be salty over something amirite?

 

 

[Thrymm]

14 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

The new Bramma changes are terrible but I can at least forgive them for not killing it completely. Still, thanks D.E, hours invested and 6 forma down, thank you for having no respect towards my invested time. A couple people complain and they nerf our favorite weapon, why don't they apply the nerf to them only instead since they're all clamoring so badly for it? We were all pretty happy with the original Bramma..

Well we're all gonna simply switch to Carrier/Vigilante supplies to almost get past that ridiculous 15 to 5 ammo pool, that's not a nerf, that's them making an awesome weapon almost useless unless you can counter it. Guess what, doesn't make me any more accurate/conservative with the Bramma, I still aim at the floor/feet when necessary and bombard enemies with almost 6 arrows at once using my Gauss' 4.

There's less going on visually with it which is just a shame, I still have to deal with Embers/Vaubans nuking my eyes a 1000x times worse whenever I'm playing a DF/Survival mission. Not to mention, Saryns are still nuking worse than anything a Bramma could ever do, that's true 'no-fun-for-anyone-else-nuke' and not forgetting Novas are still devolving my screen into chaos every time I even poke an enemy. This is surely what a PVE game needs, make the most fun bits less fun, that's sure to keep the loyal players here and draw in new ones, less fun 🙂 I find it amusing as hell though, months from now and the Kuva Bramma will still be our favorite and most used weapon, what's D.E gonna do after they realize they simply can't make us not use it?

It is the most fun weapon they've made after all, most others are pretty boring low-tech projectile guns from the 21st century with nearly no fun-factor. Maybe they'll try to kill it some more by making it into a wholly new weapon like the Arca Plasmor. Who knows, all I know is most missions I've been in since the update has had a Bramma, the boom bow isn't going anywhere, just accept it. If you don't like the Bramma then by all means don't use it or exit from missions with the Bramma, maybe play solo, don't kill our fun because you think you can't seem to have any.

Also me favoring an AOE-bow is not lessened in any way by someone liking another weapon so why do I have to suffer for their preferences? They seem no more important to me than every other player and thus the wants of the many shouldn't be killed by the gripes of a loud few, especially so considering that most players are using the Bramma and seem to deeply favor it, you do you. Regardless of your personal opinions about the Bramma it's still the best weapon to ever come to WF and one of the only few that's fun to use when surrounded by lvl 100 and higher heavies on an endless survival or enhanced enemies in a sortie.

It has quickly taken the place at the top of the usage charts - which is where it should be given its acquisition - but the degree of dominance (about 3 times more popular than anything else) is not something we feel is good for the primary weapon Arsenal options.

See this quote.  Embrace it, make it part of you.  There is no "a few people" thing going on here, and really there virtually never is when stuff starts getting tinkered with.  Three times more people using this than anything else is......embarassingly out of control.  It's all good to disagree with how something goes, but lose the illusion that these changes happen because of a few people, because that's simply not truth.

As you've seen and edited to add, the ammo count is a non-factor.  It's barely even worth mentioning.  Frankly, I'm not sure why they went this direction when it's literally a non-starter and has been since carrier changed, vigilante fitting in the exilus slot simply drove the final nail in any ammo economy type balancing.

Honestly, I'm on the opposite end in regards to thinking it's "fun", and certainly wouldn't put it opposite of the "low-tech" weapons.  It's a bow with a bomb tied to the arrow.  Rambo and the Duke boys where doing it as early as the 1970's, and the chinese where doing it on crossbows before Europeans started using gunpowder.  Blowie uppie arrows are barely newer tech than the bow itself.

We can also go the other way with your logic---if you DO like the Bramma and it isn't going anywhere in your arsenal, maybe YOU should play solo so that it doesn't affect anyone else.  The others aren't the ones using the disruptive weapon, after all.

Honestly, though, I can't see the draw people have to the thing.  Yeah, it's powerful, overpowered even.  But it's boring and frankly kinda lame.  It's neither inventive nor compelling, and doesn't really promote any kind of active gameplay thought.  To each their own if folks like it, but I really can't see why they would.

But I wouldn't draw too much attention to this weapon, maybe use something else on occasion to bring its usage percentage down, because frankly it didn't drop a power rank from these changes and when folks realize that, it might see more.

[Aldain]

Funny, I never heard Lenz fans complain that they had too little ammo.

Wonder what makes the Bramma so different in that regard.

[Ice_Peck]

15 hours ago, StormWolf1337 said:

The new Bramma changes are terrible but I can at least forgive them for not killing it completely. Still, thanks D.E, hours invested and 6 forma down, thank you for having no respect towards my invested time. A couple people complain and they nerf our favorite weapon, why don't they apply the nerf to them only instead since they're all clamoring so badly for it? We were all pretty happy with the original Bramma..

Well we're all gonna simply switch to Carrier/Vigilante supplies to almost get past that ridiculous 15 to 5 ammo pool, that's not a nerf, that's them making an awesome weapon almost useless unless you can counter it. Guess what, doesn't make me any more accurate/conservative with the Bramma, I still aim at the floor/feet when necessary and bombard enemies with almost 6 arrows at once using my Gauss' 4.

There's less going on visually with it which is just a shame, I still have to deal with Embers/Vaubans nuking my eyes a 1000x times worse whenever I'm playing a DF/Survival mission. Not to mention, Saryns are still nuking worse than anything a Bramma could ever do, that's true 'no-fun-for-anyone-else-nuke' and not forgetting Novas are still devolving my screen into chaos every time I even poke an enemy. This is surely what a PVE game needs, make the most fun bits less fun, that's sure to keep the loyal players here and draw in new ones, less fun 🙂 I find it amusing as hell though, months from now and the Kuva Bramma will still be our favorite and most used weapon, what's D.E gonna do after they realize they simply can't make us not use it?

It is the most fun weapon they've made after all, most others are pretty boring low-tech projectile guns from the 21st century with nearly no fun-factor. Maybe they'll try to kill it some more by making it into a wholly new weapon like the Arca Plasmor. Who knows, all I know is most missions I've been in since the update has had a Bramma, the boom bow isn't going anywhere, just accept it. If you don't like the Bramma then by all means don't use it or exit from missions with the Bramma, maybe play solo, don't kill our fun because you think you can't seem to have any.

Also me favoring an AOE-bow is not lessened in any way by someone liking another weapon so why do I have to suffer for their preferences? They seem no more important to me than every other player and thus the wants of the many shouldn't be killed by the gripes of a loud few, especially so considering that most players are using the Bramma and seem to deeply favor it, you do you. Regardless of your personal opinions about the Bramma it's still the best weapon to ever come to WF and one of the only few that's fun to use when surrounded by lvl 100 and higher heavies on an endless survival or enhanced enemies in a sortie.

Have you ever tried ammo mutation?

 

Ever?

 

Just once?

 

You have an exilus slot for it.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

You should’ve expected the nerf and not invested so much.

[dsagent]

Bruh, this weapon was extremely overpowered. It had zero drawbacks. If anything it needs to be nerfed even more.

[Tokens210]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

You should’ve expected the nerf and not invested so much.

thats a huge issue with the game tho as well, we should be expecting old stuff to gets buffs and new stuff to be made i mean even remotely close to the level it was made for, things made for end game need to stop being nerfed cause ppl use it on standard start chart tiles

i still feel like DE just straight up dont play the game anymore, i mean look at deadlock

steve was super excited to say multiple times that the teams been playing it all day yesterday before release to make sure its all good

kubrow companions wandering your ship got set to be a default pattern and color, in my case my Helminth was a plain white kubrow

ive seen so many and i mean so many ways the new jackal is bugged or broken

fihsing pretty much as a whole stopped working, till hotfixed

since all companions are now on 1 screen, having an incubating pet actually locks you out of selecting anything as the whole screen just says must wait for incubation to select companion

theyve removed the need for dna stabilizers if you have the upgrade segment yet we still cant sell the stabilizers we have and so far ive asked and got no answer

i saw kuva liches completely breaking the new content threads and hotfixes already lol

 

im just like you wanna say the entire team was "testing" the content before launch but they noticed none of this? where they even actually playing then lol?

[Divinehero]

ur welcome...

https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Vigilante_Supplies

[Tokens210]

4 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

Even with vigilante supplies the ammo pool of 5 is not enough for anything else other than low level content mob thrashing, the moment you get one strong enemy or a boss the bramma cant do anything anymore because...oops I'm out of ammo, and the worst part is you cant get ammo back on bramma while using another weapon, you literally have to keep the bramma with 0 ammo on you while you dont shoot anything else until you can pickup some ammo.

All in all, this ammo nerf ruins it.

isnt there also a mod that causes weapons holstered to get ammo refill?

my bad wasnt 100% more like 20% if it can be put on the bramma that is

 

[Frostyinferno]

2 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

Even with vigilante supplies the ammo pool of 5 is not enough for anything else other than low level mob thrashing, the moment you get one strong enemy or a boss, or the enemies becoming too high level where you cant one shot them anymore, the bramma cant do anything anymore because...oops I'm out of ammo, and the worst part is you cant get ammo back on bramma while using another weapon, you literally have to keep the bramma with 0 ammo in your hands so you can pickup some ammo.

If you use another weapon in the meanwhile and you run over ammo it wont even be used to replenish the bramma, I agree with OP, its complete BS.

All in all, this ammo nerf ruins it.

This, honestly. The ammo pool nerf is fine, but the problem is you only restore a single arrow per ammo drop. It isn't enough at high level content.

[Divinehero]

these exist too..
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Squad_Ammo_Restore

[Frostyinferno]

1 minute ago, Divinehero said:

these exist too..
https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Squad_Ammo_Restore

I'm perfectly aware those exist. But those should never be required to use a weapon. Bramma is, as far as I'm aware, the only weapon in which regardless of the mod used, only restores 1 ammo per ammo unit. This is the part of the nerf that went too far. 

 

[Frostyinferno]

5 minutes ago, IIAc3sII said:

I'm even using ammo drum just to be able to get a little bit more ammo for bramma to make it semi-playable, thats how bad it is, AMMO DRUM, never thought I'd see the day but here we are. And yes, I'm also using vilante supplies to pick up 1 arrow from every ammo pack I can find...

And even with this I cant use bramma for anything else except low level mob thrashing, high level enemies and boss fights are just out of the question.

Same, I'm using Ammo Drum in the exilus and Carrier with Ammo Case. I just tried a Kuva Flood. It...kind of works, but there are still situations where I'm cutting it close in ammo reserves. It's ridiculous. Certain sorties would just be impossible to use it with, regardless of any mod in the game. It's just too harsh.

Also, there's the possibility of my Carrier dying for good, in which case I basically don't have a primary weapon.