Xoris Interactions With Warframe Abilities & Exalted Weapons

[MustBeAStandUser]

i just wish you would put that effort in buffing useless stuff instead of bringing out good stuff that will be used, just so you get suprised everyone uses it so you nerf it....

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

40 minutes ago, GREF_TM said:

I have excal as the most used frame myself, i'd love to see buffs too, or even better, a proper rework, because excal, while isn't exactly bad, is hella outdated. But at the same time i don't believe they'll be able to come up with a rework good enough to make him worth using over buffed baruuk. Baruuk's 4 is just better in every way possible other than restraint stacking gameplay loop.

well baruuks not able to gain hp unless his own fists hit via life strike or ect, but the adaptive damage is way better then crap chromatic blade

still i can do about the same with just normal melee anyway

 

[Akula_Rose]

Would prefer if we'd quit messing around and just give those warframes exalted modding like the regular moddable exalted weapons. I don't hate this nerf b/c as a valkyr main...who the frag still uses valkyr's 4? I prefer choice over one weapon to rule them all so this nerf needed to happen tbh. Would like to see Atlas's and Khora's 1s be replaced by actual exalted weapons as well b/c I hate having to power spam. My E key is already faded and accepts the punishment. I'm not going to destroy my 1 key as well. Also seriously give valkyr a greatsword if you make an umbra. The combos on those claws are as bad as the stave stances......... I totes need invulnerability on one of the tankiest warframes in the game as well, makes so much sense.

[I_AM_MTJP]

I don't agree with this change, and here's why:

I think what made the Xoris so powerful was not it's damage, but the fact that it allowed you to use your exalted weapon / pseudo-exalted weapon very easily. Any weapon could get to the 12x combo counter and give the bonuses of blood rush, weeping wounds, and the gladiator set. But to make this strategy work, you have to jump through a lot of hoops:

You will lose this multiplier within five seconds, so you have to constantly refresh your combo counter. If you decide to use a combo duration mod, you give yourself more time, but you lose a mod slot. Not the Xoris though, the Xoris can use all eight mod slots without to empower your ability without a hassle. And even if you have over 20 seconds of combo duration, you have to refresh it pretty often. Naramon's power spike is a useful solution, but opens another bag of worms. you have to find another way to get energy, because you don't have Zenurik (and I figure 90% of the playerbase just uses energizing dash for energy, because of ease of use)

Even then, you still have to refresh the combo counter, but not with the Xoris. Sometimes refreshing the combo counter means unequipping your exalted weapon and using your melee weapon to hit an enemy a few times before reequipping your exalted weapon. Not only does this make you lose the effects of Energy Conversion and other multipliers, you're also putting yourself in a very vulnerable position. You have to go up to an enemy's face and whack them a few times, but you also lose your powerful weapon. Some frames rely on quick killing to survive, and not having that immediately available can be the difference between life and death. Not to mention the fact that sometimes those enemies just aren't available, and you lose all your work because you couldn't find an enemy in time, or you had to wait for the next round.

 

DE, I understand that you want the players to work for the damage we get, to prevent us from sucking all the fun out of the game. Yes, we were partly using the Xoris so we didn't have to refresh our combo counter that often. Most builds with stat sticks before the Xoris that I know of didn't bother with the combo counter mechanic because it was too much effort for too little reward. So getting that reward for very little effort is a major game changer.

And nerfing the Xoris like this means we'll go back to the old builds, and we'll continue to ignore this interesting and promising mechanic you've built. using all your combo when you use one ability is not worth it, and we'll forget about the Xoris.

 

So, what should we do now? Here are my suggestions:

• Cap the Xoris Combo counter: For instance, make it so that the Xoris can only go up to 5x combo counter, and can only give up the associated bonuses of that rank. I think this is balanced because your sacrificing power for ease of use and less risk. Other melee weapons can go higher and give more damage, but the Xoris can safely store it's lower damage. Now that's an interesting choice!
• The Xoris only loses a Part of it's combo counter when an ability is used: Maybe it only loses 10 combo or 20% of it's total combo whenever you use an ability that is affected by the combo counter. Maybe it's affected by heavy attack efficiency, this would make the builds a lot more interesting.
• Buff the abilities: Atlas' Landslide ability has a status chance of 5% and a crit chance of 5% , which means most crit and stat mods won't really meaningfully affect it. Only the full blood rush multiplier (5x 6.6 = 33% crit)* and the full weeping wounds multiplier (5x 4.4 = 22% status)*  and additive, or'Flat' bonuses (like Arcane Avenger, or Proton Snap)* will really make a meaningful difference. So before the Xoris, all we really had was base damage and elemental damage on our stat sticks. As a result, most stat stick builds barely look like normal or fun melee builds. No attack speed mods, No combo duration mods. If the numbers were higher, we could comfortably use other weapons with other mods, and we didn't have to rely on the Xoris with blood rush and weeping wounds so much at higher levels. What if things like True Steel, Drifting contact, or even attack speed mods increased the damage of your abilities? What if a good melee build also was a good stat stick build?

And, Most importantly:

• Give us more ways to get melee combo/ hold onto melee combo: we have rising storm and the slash dash augment, but that's it. There is so much unexplored territory here. Combo should be easier to get for everyone. What if there was a primary or secondary weapon that gave combo on headshot kills? What if we had a mod or mod set similar to the Augur set that turned a percentage of spent energy into combo (then you would be rewarded for using the abilities you're already using!) What if it was companion/sentinel precept?  What if it was an focus power or an arcane? Variety is the spice of life in Warframe. so I'm begging you, give us more options DE!

 

(please correct me if my math is wrong)*

[MunsuLight]

For frames that use a stat stick, you accepted you were going to do less damage in exchange for not managing combo. Isn't that the exact CHOICE that DE claims they want us to have with the modding system? It also opened ALTERNATE modding possibilities. Let's consider Atlas. I probably wouldn't go for crit on a "standard" Atlas stat stick. However with the right Xoris build I could get Blood Rush, Glad set and with Arcane Avenger I could get to 100% crit. That let crit be a realistic option for Landslide when it really wasn't before.  Xoris isn't even that strong and the nerf is just removing options instead of adding more viable options but your team fail to see that

By nerfing Xoris you are REMOVING CHOICES from the player, not freeing us from some oppressive Xoris meta. Xoris was used solely for the QOL feature of infinite duration so that you could mod DIFFERENTLY

All the other frames (Excal, Baruuk, Wukong, etc) that finally had some weaknesses patched up by Xoris will get nerfed again and to my honest opinions their EXALTED MELEE should be stronger than a NORMAL MELEE WEAPON

[TempestM]

6 часов назад, [DE]Megan сказал:

As stated above, we are doing this because restricting your choice to a single weapon for indisputable best performance invalidates all others and such an interaction does not warrant changes to base Warframes as a whole. 

 

So those who want to use combo mods will go back to using Naramon, this change is doing exactly this: invalidates all other options, but for operator schools 

[(NSW)Mbek]

This thread popped out just within a day of console getting Deadlock Protocol lol, thank god I haven't give Xoris potato and forma, which I don't need to do now.

[Stormxdragon]

11 minutes ago, TheMasterSwordMaster976 said:

because theres a bunch of ways this nerf couldve been made other than making  xoris worthless to use even on its own when using those frames. Now when you use your 1st ability even once with atlas, it completely resets the combo counter. tell me that xoris is still good when you look at that.

You couldn't tell by looking at it that it was going to lead to over powered attacks? It was obviously going to be nerfed eventually - the people who put resources into it did so at their own risk.

[TheMasterSwordMaster976]

Just now, -CM-Stormxdragon said:

You couldn't tell by looking at it that it was going to lead to over powered attacks. It was obviously going to be nerfed eventually - the people who put resources into it did so at their own risk.

making a weapon completely worthless to use on these specific warframes is NOT THE WAY TO DO IT. Yes, xoris infinite combo duration was obviously overpowered for exalted weapons, i never said otherwise (congrats on just restating your original point). what I said is that there are better ways to make xoris's combo counter not interact with the exalted weapons such as... having the combo counter not interact with exalted weapons!

[vFlitz]

24 minutes ago, AnhurShu said:

Third, secondary effects. Some are useful (Valkyr and Baruuk), while others (Excalibur and Wukong) are kind of just there

As long as the clone's AI remains in its current state, it isn't just there, it's an active detriment. The clone is absolutely useless with melee. It shouldn't be allowed to used one, much less forced to under the pretense of it being a benefit.

I really don't understand why Umbra in sacrifice can aggresively go to town on the player with exalted blade, but every friendly AI turns into a potato when given a melee weapon

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

6 hours ago, ItsDaKoolaidDude said:

Because how the nerfs have occurred and how often they've been occurring and the pattern in which we weren't supposed to enjoy in OUR way whereas they wanted us to enjoy in THEIR way.

Not to mention, if DE had tested the weapon then they would have known about the interaction and would have done the necessary rework before release. 

[KosmicKerman]

6 minutes ago, -CM-Stormxdragon said:

You couldn't tell by looking at it that it was going to lead to over powered attacks? It was obviously going to be nerfed eventually - the people who put resources into it did so at their own risk.

So do rivens on stat sticks. Still waiting for DE to remove that interaction. Hasn’t happened yet. 

[Sickle_Slayer]

5 minutes ago, -CM-Stormxdragon said:

You couldn't tell by looking at it that it was going to lead to over powered attacks? It was obviously going to be nerfed eventually - the people who put resources into it did so at their own risk.

You seem to have missed the entire point of their response. They're not even talking about the forma put in. They're talking about how an entire group of warframes won't even be able to use the Xoris without their own abilities being significantly nerfed

[(PSN)IndianChiefJeff]

Moddable Landslide, Whipclaw & Bladestorm when?

Let's not stop there, let's also look at balancing issues concerning Exalted weapons in general. Lift the restrictions concerning Acolyte mods & any other mods on Exalted weapons. Stop necessitating stat sticks to get the most out of abilities, it seriously restricts builds.

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)Lei-Lei_23 said:

Now that this interaction was brought to the backyard with the boomstick, when are Exalted Melees ever going to be able to use Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds finally?

Serious question. And I’m quoting myself so that my post doesn’t get lost in the frustrated ambush over the lost interaction of Xoris’ mechanic to Exalted abilities/melee.

DE, when are we going to have access to the two Acolyte mods, Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds, onto toggled Exalted Melee? Why must we continue, patch after patch after patch, to compromise mod setups for Exalted Melee in such ways that they try to match but never surpass normal melee weapon mod builds?

[iSiawPrime]

The Xoris never had a higher damage output than the other stat sticks, in fact it was way lower due to the riven dispo(0.5), all this weapon did was let us use something else than Naramon and we wouldn’t have to worry about combo decay.

You could’ve made the weapon have an innate Power Spike instead of destroying the combo completely but nah let’s do the lazy solution and nerf it to the ground. At least give us our formas back or something.

 

[anarchy753]

This is a massive nerf to a lot of things.

Baruuk has ALWAYS suffered from the fact that Serene Storm is pathetic at building the combo because using it as intended almost never counts as an actual hit.

And all these "stat stick" abilities anyway, can't you just finally put the work in that everyone wants and make them moddable instead of this ridiculous archaic "stat stick" mechanic that makes NO SENSE in a game with exalted weapons?

[Stormxdragon]

14 minutes ago, Sickle_Slayer said:

You seem to have missed the entire point of their response. They're not even talking about the forma put in. They're talking about how an entire group of warframes won't even be able to use the Xoris without their own abilities being significantly nerfed

Actually one of the first comments was a complaint about wasted formas. And that entire group of warframe are all ones with exalted weps that due to the nature of xoris could get extremely powerful, overpowered in fact - so yes those warframe shouldn't be able to use that combination not as it is.

[Atalandros]

We could all see that coming, but it doesn't make it right.

First, that kind of mess coud and should be avoided : think thoroughly, test thoroughly before implementing anything to your game. That's what professionnals do. But the fact that you're unable to foresee such issues prove that you don't understand the mechanics of your own game. Yeah, like amateurs.

Second, the Xoris is now nearly irrelevant, and so pretty much useless : the infinite combo duration is the thing that makes up for its weak stats. Now that using the wrong ability will reset combo counter, who will bother to use it anymore? Diversity is served, no doubt about it.

Finally, and that's an issue with every nerf : you don't account for the resources players invested in said weapon/frame and that go to waste because of the nerf. In that instance, considering I will not use the xoris anymore (not by choice, but because YOU made it useless), the formas I put on it are lost. And no compensation is on the table, of course.

On the side note, you nerfed the Bramma recently for the sake of diversity. Deadly Protocol bringing two new boomboom weapons, there was no way you would have let the bramma outshine them. I don't see the Stahlta and the tombfinger primary being used all that much, probably because of how poorly designed they are. See what I mean? You can't encourage diversity by making the rare weapons that come on top worst. You do it by giving more good alternatives.

[Jaq.]

Sometimes we just can't have a little extra fun.

Now would you please refund any resource spent on that now useless piece of ****?

[TheMasterSwordMaster976]

5 hours ago, Magus_Tahir said:

Okay now that we have established they do play the game. Adjusting many of these systems you refer to is not so simple as pressing a few buttons ethier.

 

I really cant understand how developers who know everything there is to know about their own video game and "play the game" and know exactly how the community works and what they do with their builds didn't forsee people using xoris's infinite combo counter for exalted weapons. How did they NOT see this coming?

[WaifuJanna]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Drachnyn:

That change is only fair if you also prevent rivens from affecting the bolded (by me) abilities. Effectively statstick rivens are warframe rivens and that needs to be solved asap.

what u want to kill 3 frames??

 

The Riven Statstick is the only reason those frames even playable mid/high level. Stop try to destroy Khora/Gara... they rarely see play anyways.

[TheMasterSwordMaster976]

5 hours ago, PookieNumnums said:

ALTERNATIVELY

 You could just put a detonator timer on the glaive that depletes shields and gives a substantial knockdown if a heavy throw isnt used within a certain period of time. 

that sounds like an even worse change to xoris, and would kinda defeat the purpose of having infinite combo duration in the first place

[TheMasterSwordMaster976]

5 hours ago, Vernoc said:

love the gara changes!

tbh, i don´t see why u nerv a weapon that is only for baruuk good and for most other frames a downgrade, but i´m glad that DE isn´t afraid to do changes that are unpopular

youre glad to see DE make a weapon completely irrelevant? 👍

[Koalachan]

Dear DE

This proposed "fix" is not a good idea. A good idea would be NOT doing this change. This could just be left alone.

The reason you give for the nerf is defective. Xoris was not competitive, AT ALL, to the dps output of Melee Rivens with High disposition as far as stat sticks go. The only thing the "fix" does is throwing Xoris into the bin, grabbing any number of High disposition melee weapons & lock in your Focus school as Naramon. Xorus SACRIFICES a lot of damage for Quality of Life as far as stat sticks are concerned. Meaningful choices is what you NEED in this game.

What I'm seeing is: you didn't understand how this was going to affect combo abilities. Your announcement indicates further misunderstanding how in fact a ton of Rivens are better solutions than Xoris. Which not surprisingly lead to a change that is just taking away choice, which is the exact opposite of what you say you set out to do. I sincerely hope that the reactions in this thread have shown that your initial assesment of this situation proves uninformed & that the proposed "fix" will remove Xoris from use everywhere.

It really is fine to leave it as is for now. What I very much rather have you work on is removing the concept of stat sticks all together. You 've already given us feedback that you realise they are a problem. Stat sticks are to abilities what old gas was to damage = a mess (mechanically). I do not care for forma invested etc. What I want is an overall good solution to the actual problem resulting in a better game.

I do agree that the fact that you get weird interactions with Exalted Weapons that reference your normal combo is a bit more of a problem. But this is also your own doing from a recent undocumented change and is also something to clean up when you retire stat sticks from the game. This isn't terribly concerning at the moment though since exalted weapons do not outshine high end melee weapons.

As someone who actually uses better stat sticks and is not a Xoris user, I am still asking you not to go through with this fix. It's objectively the wrong thing to do.