Why the drop pools so unrewarding

[(XBOX)Harbinger XK5]

As long as I've played this game I've noticed that the drop pools have little to no reward such as getting a control module as the rare reward in a plains bounty, or getting a vitality mod at the 70 minute mark in kuva fortress survival, needless to say that i already picked about a hundred vitality mods off of enemies I killed in that one mission alone.

So i want to know: will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration.

[DreisterDino]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb (XBOX)Harbinger XK5:

So i want to know: will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration.

I wouldnt get my hopes up on that...

This is a request which exist for years (and a justified request btw!), but nothing happened so far.

 

I mean, its one thing that they dont remove these absolute "non-rewards" like the mentioned Vitality from old droptables.

With every addition to the game, they keep adding these non-rewards into new droptables aswell.

 

Look at Railjack for example: 1 Nullstone as a reward is just as bad as getting a Vitality.

 

Additionally, in my opinion there are way too many of those "you only need it once" rewards which are non-rewards after that aswell.

Like all the Warframe parts which are in Droptables in every gamemode which should be placed in some kind of token shops.

 

My conclusion is simple: This is not a mistake, it is intended and thus it wont get changed.

[(PSN)Unstar]

20 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

So i want to know: will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration.

If you have a genuine concern, hyperbole isn't going to get it addressed.  There are plenty of rewarding drop pools.

[ZeroX4]

31 minutes ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

As long as I've played this game I've noticed that the drop pools have little to no reward such as getting a control module as the rare reward in a plains bounty, or getting a vitality mod at the 70 minute mark in kuva fortress survival, needless to say that i already picked about a hundred vitality mods off of enemies I killed in that one mission alone.

So i want to know: will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration.

Lets put a little bit logic into your question

When i need to waste control modules on something i really dont care how much and for what it is just because i dont need them for anything and if i would i could just go farm them

But other side of the story is imagine NOT getting control modules from bounties lets say WE ALL are getting primed mods from bounties like left and right
Could you fatom how cheap primed mods would become? Like ppl giving them away for free like we now give vitality for free if someone asks for it on chat

And because we are getting primed mods and not control modules imagine how many players would need to go actually farm them to craft some crap

That is same case as for sortie rewards
There wont be any good rewards from repeatable activities because EVERYONE will fast get to the point where they will swim in that rewards

Thats why only logical option is to have resources as rewards since you are populating bounty squads or sortie squads instead of sitting on 1 node and farming that resources u need so much


If you care to expand the idea go check how much legendary fusion core sells for in warframe market
Now imagine each player get 1 core per week and try to guess what would be price of it then
Id bet MAYBE 5 plat AT BEST (since amount of mods on which you would even bother to waste it is so limited)

So in the end lets be happy with what we have
Because well lets face it we all know how King Midas ended up
 

[Tesseract7777]

Because without filler you'd be done really fast, get bored and go play another game. 

Psychologically you THINK you want all useless filler removed from the drop table. 

Subconsciously, it makes the good loot feel more rewarding, pads out your loot over time with common rewards in bulk that can have certain credit or endo value later if nothing else, and slows down your grind artificially so you don't just get everything at once. It's a F2P PvE game. The game needs to get you to GRIND. 

Now, I'm not saying there aren't some egregious outliers that should certainly be looked at, and some that go beyond useless filler to ""REALLY?!". But you are always going to have a fair amount of garbo. It's how this kind of game keeps the hamster wheel turning. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb ZeroX4:

But other side of the story is imagine NOT getting control modules from bounties lets say WE ALL are getting primed mods from bounties like left and right
Could you fatom how cheap primed mods would become? Like ppl giving them away for free like we now give vitality for free if someone asks for it on chat

And because we are getting primed mods and not control modules imagine how many players would need to go actually farm them to craft some crap
 

 You know, there is something in between a Vitality Mod and a Primed Mod. 🙄

This is not "putting a little logic into the question", this is using strawman arguments.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

 You know, there is something in between a Vitality Mod and a Primed Mod. 🙄

This is not "putting a little logic into the question", this is using strawman arguments.

*shrug* you have to get vitality somewhere. 

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of adjusting and tweaking that should be done. The drop tables have been due a proper audit for years. 

But there are common, uncommon and rare rewards and the commons gotta drop somewhere. 

It's like buying a pack of pokemon cards as a kid. You get a bunch of commons, some that are sort of more like uncommons, and then you get one guaranteed rare, but not a guaranteed holofoil. And your chances of Charizard? Fuggedaboudit. 

[Lutesque]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

 

So i want to know: will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration

Nope.... 

I mean how is DE Going to keep the lights on at the Office if Progression in this game was actually perfectly fine ?

51 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

 

My conclusion is simple: This is not a mistake, it is intended and thus it wont get changed.

Pretty Much 😥 !

 

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

As long as I've played this game I've noticed that the drop pools have little to no reward such as getting a control module as the rare reward in a plains bounty, or getting a vitality mod at the 70 minute mark in kuva fortress survival, needless to say that i already picked about a hundred vitality mods off of enemies I killed in that one mission alone.

So i want to know: will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration.

No.

The fact DE decided to leave Holokey drop tables unchanged despite a month of everyone telling them the problem was not the amount per se is a sign they have engagement metrics that take priority over fairness. This results in polluted drop tables. 

Going further back, I'm rather amazed you think the Arbitration's drop table is rewarding. Nearly everyone hated the fact DE decided to pollute it further while deprecating the value of their own Arbitrations store with the Arbitrations revisited update:

Quote

I'll tell you the feedback they took: They removed the cyan star bundle reward. Nothing else.

17 pages of clear rejection towards the idea of diluting the drop tables with the new rewards instead of getting them from the Arbitration shop.

17 pages of clear rejection of the revive system.

17 pages outright ignored.

So much for "these plans are subject to change both before and after release, based on player feedback".....

Years later, I'm still very pissed at DE for those decisions. It's mostly the reason why I don't do Arbitrations anymore.

[Sovyul]

Quote

Why the drop pools so unrewarding

to keep you playing

[Famecans]

Some RPGs use a resource exchange system as if each resource were a currency of a certain value and rarity. For me Telurium, Orokin Cell, Argon Crystals... have the same value for their rarity but the fair exchange between them should be like:

• I have 2 Argon Crystals and I want to exchange them for 1 Orokin Cell.
• I have 2 Orokin Cell and I want to exchange them for 1 Argon Crystals.

or:

• I have 1 Orokin Cell and I want to exchange it for 150 Plastids
• I have 300 Plastids and I want to exchange for 1 Orokin Cell

The exchange costs twice as much as the previous exchange to avoid spam in the exchange system.

The 300 Plastide pack costs 30pl at the store, I think packs like these also need readjustment as the item value could relate to the farm/drop time. The farm/drop time can be reduced by warframe abilities, boost bonuses, or immediately exchanged by lower value resources.

this will flow market liquidity and platinum items can be valued for playing time.

[ZeroX4]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

 You know, there is something in between a Vitality Mod and a Primed Mod. 🙄

This is not "putting a little logic into the question", this is using strawman arguments.

Im pretty sure it is

Since look what happened to Arcane Grace
I remember when 1 piece was worth around 200-300 plat while now its 50

There are many different things we could get as bounty reward but nothing would prevent us from not giving a F*** after we get enough of it

And unless im missing the point idea in warframe is to make constant progress and not like "ow i farmed THIS whole day now i wont need to bother with it for a year"
Trust me i wish to get other stuff or in higher quantity as rewards just like any player who value his time and effort

But at the same time i perfectly understand why we have F2P game and why drop tables look like they look

But if you still think i pulled straw man argument then please by all means i wish to hear what kind of change to rewards you would propose?
Just keep in mind this is free to play game with well business model you most likely understand + some of play like 2 hours per day while others 8 per day while some 4 per week

Just dont forget to make rewards fair for everyone GL ;)

[ZeroX4]

3 minutes ago, Famecans said:

Some RPGs use a resource exchange system as if each resource were a currency of a certain value and rarity. For me Telurium, Orokin Cell, Argon Crystals... have the same value for their rarity but the fair exchange between them should be like:

• I have 2 Argon Crystals and I want to exchange them for 1 Orokin Cell.

or:

• I have 1 Orokin Cell and I want to exchange it for 150 Plastids
• I have 300 Plastids and I want to exchange for 1 Orokin Cell

The exchange costs twice as much as the previous exchange to avoid spam in the exchange system.

The 300 Plastide pack costs 30pl at the store, I think packs like these also need readjustment as the item value could relate to the farm/drop time. The farm/drop time can be reduced by warframe abilities, boost bonuses, or immediately exchanged by lower value resources.

this will flow market liquidity and platinum items can be valued for playing time.

Ow that is something i wish to see
That alone would solve so many issues for us

But would create content islands for others
Just to be clear i really wish for it to happen but here is why it wont

I dont like animal capture i dont do it its stupid for me and absolute mistake of this game
Yet i want NW standing and when there is act with 6 perfect animal captures i will break myself but i will do it

Imagine if ppl like me could just avoid it to get NW standing? I would pay 2x plat or any resource worth of that standing
And many players also and now imagine if we could pay for X resource with Y resources
For some players it would mean completely avoiding some content/farming which i bet no dev would care for us to be possible

Thats why its more profitable for us to buy boosters and go farm crap we need rather than buy that crap from market
Like GL buying cryotic for Sibear

[Famecans]

30 minutes ago, ZeroX4 said:

Ow that is something i wish to see
That alone would solve so many issues for us

But would create content islands for others
Just to be clear i really wish for it to happen but here is why it wont

I dont like animal capture i dont do it its stupid for me and absolute mistake of this game
Yet i want NW standing and when there is act with 6 perfect animal captures i will break myself but i will do it

Imagine if ppl like me could just avoid it to get NW standing? I would pay 2x plat or any resource worth of that standing
And many players also and now imagine if we could pay for X resource with Y resources
For some players it would mean completely avoiding some content/farming which i bet no dev would care for us to be possible

Thats why its more profitable for us to buy boosters and go farm crap we need rather than buy that crap from market
Like GL buying cryotic for Sibear

I don't see any problems with this system, the DE can put the exchange rate up to 4x the exchange value, this way it will be impossible for a veteran player to raise new accounts.

All immediate acquisitions through exchange comes from two pools: platinum from the "official website" or volume of "farmed resources".

All inventory items including the universal reputation badge for syndicates and coins like ducats and endo need to receive a trade-in value in a kind of in-game value pyramid, so everything will be simplified and tradeable without injustice as everything will be valuablely connected to the drop chance.

I was here when the Adaptation mod cost 100pl on wmarket.com, it would be interesting to exchange 4 of these for 1 golden mod of the same class of warframe mods. 

[trst]

Rewards like that exist for padding just as they do in all games which lean on rng based rewards and drop tables.

 

Though there is another issue.

2 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

will we ever see a rewarding drop pool outside of arbitration.

I don't find Arbitrations rewarding. I already have the drops I want from it and don't need enough Endo to justify the time spent in it.

Y'see the value of rewards is dynamic. You don't find a control module rewarding but someone who's new and needs more will find value in it until they no longer need them. Same with another copy of Vitality. Sure nobody needs all those copies but those translate directly into Endo which can be highly valued by some.

And since we have no real forced progression in this game there is no telling at what point a player is at and what they may find value in. But if there is an underlying issue here it would be how abundant some rewards are relative to their finite uses like control modules and the complete absence of functional resource sinks.

[SiriSnugglebottoms]

I don't mind that all reward tables have some (or a lot of) clunkers in them. What I mind is that there's so many drop tables that have NOTHING of notable value, so there's not even a miniscule chance of getting something cool. 

[ZeroX4]

1 hour ago, Famecans said:

I don't see any problems with this system,

Because you are player not developer

You dont need to be concern for populating missions you only care to progress

Because if we are talking about being able to trade player to player
Now imagine if we dont need to buy kuva for SE or do kuva siphons and floods or kuva survivals
If we could trade any other resources for it
Who would be farming it? Higher MR players who swim in many different resources?
Or maybe low MR players who need that resources and that would be best option for them to get it

Which would result in making content island for lower MR players and higher who would farm only most demanded resources?

If we talk about player to npc/market trades
Then again ppl would not do stuff they are not happy with like for some it would be not going for argon crystals while others for orokin cells and so go on
They would go for other content leaving content which they can avoid un-populated
And like with weapons golden rule THERE ALWAYS WILL BE META

Or to put it simple imagine you want to revive PVP in warframe and what you do? You give worthy rewards for participating in PVP
But then you also give option for players to buy all PVP rewards for rewards from other activities
And puff you just killed PVP before you even revived it

Believe me i wish for a system where i can unfairly trade 1 resource to another but there is a reason why we dont have it

[cute_moth.npc]

I mean finishing a mission in Warframe isn't like beating a raid boss or winning a PvP match, the level of effort required to win is more like successfully mining a rock in an MMO. That's why you get a piece of copper each time ^^;

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Mods and resources are a part of the game.This is why the loading screen tells you to turn duplicate mods into endo, and why besides blueprints, it's incredibly easy to craft multiple frames and weapons. You're kinda supposed to have excess, which is where the helminth comes in.

 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

5 hours ago, (XBOX)Harbinger XK5 said:

or getting a vitality mod at the 70 minute mark in kuva fortress survival,

that's your problem right there: you're not playing the game the way DE wants you to in the first place.

DE won't implement scaling or worthwhile rewards for long runs because they don't want players doing long runs: exaclty why this is, I don't know, and it kinda sucks, but they've been focused on casual and "bite-sized" content (their words regarding Sanctuary Onslaught pre-release) for a few years now and they don't seem to show any sign of wanting to change and get the endurance runner crowd back. most of the people who ran for hours in the Old Void have taken the hint and left for good, or at least changed their habits, but kudos for continuing to do what's fun for you.. you are having fun right? I can't imagine why you'd go beyond 5-10 mins otherwise..

then of course it's also down to RNG, and the merits of having a trashy drop table that has a couple rare and desirable items to keep players going. something something carrot and stick approach etc.

 

 

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

that's your problem right there: you're not playing the game the way DE wants you to in the first place.

DE won't implement scaling or worthwhile rewards for long runs because they don't want players doing long runs: exaclty why this is, I don't know, and it kinda sucks, but they've been focused on casual and "bite-sized" content (their words regarding Sanctuary Onslaught pre-release) for a few years now and they don't seem to show any sign of wanting to change and get the endurance runner crowd back. most of the people who ran for hours in the Old Void have taken the hint and left for good, or at least changed their habits, but kudos for continuing to do what's fun for you.. you are having fun right? I can't imagine why you'd go beyond 5-10 mins otherwise..

then of course it's also down to RNG, and the merits of having a trashy drop table that has a couple rare and desirable items to keep players going. something something carrot and stick approach etc.

 

 

I think you nailed it when talking about "bite-size". 

I think I recall them saying something once about Warframe being something you should be able to play while waiting for a date. 

And if you make it more rewarding to run long endurance runs, it is almost impossible to do so without making them far more rewarding than regular missions, and thus THE efficient way to do it. And there goes snack size WF that they want to keep around to hook the more casual consumer. 

And I expect it is mostly hardcores doing endurance anyways. A lot of people just don't have that much time for long play, they don't want to feel pressured to do endurance. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb ZeroX4:

But at the same time i perfectly understand why we have F2P game and why drop tables look like they look

I am aware of all the implications Warframe as a F2P games brings with it.

Regarding ressources in general, i know that there are always ressources we will have more than we ever need of while others are designed as "bottle-neck ressources".

 

But if we just stick to the Vitality Mod example, i would go by one simple rule:

• rewards should be somewhat consistent in how they are obtained and how much time it takes to get them

 

Vitality is worth 5 Endo or 200 credits if you dissolve the mod. So if you get in as a rotational reward in a Survival mission this is 5 Mins = 5 Endo/200 Credits.

But you also obtain Endo and Credits by just playing the mission.

 

Endo drops in quantities of 15/50/80 from killed enemies, and usually you get more then one endo drop from killed enemies in 5 minutes.

Even the quickest and easiest Capture missions on the starchart will always reward you like 2000 credits for 1 or 2 minutes playtime.

 

So a rotational reward for 5 minutes should correlate with these numbers.

At the very least, the worst reward we are able to get should be worth like 50 Endo in this case, not 5.

 

vor 3 Stunden schrieb SiriSnugglebottoms:

I don't mind that all reward tables have some (or a lot of) clunkers in them. What I mind is that there's so many drop tables that have NOTHING of notable value, so there's not even a miniscule chance of getting something cool. 

Like this player said, 5 Endo is literally nothing.

I dont ask to get Arcanes or Primed Mods as a reward for playing 5 minutes in a Survival, but make it consistent at least along the other ways i get those rewards.

[TheArmchairThinker]

Just like other games dropping you blues when you need purples or yellows that end up being dismantled. You may not need it, but other might need it like control module as rare reward.

And what you complained is on low level mission spectrum (Tier 1 - 2), other tiers for medium - high level players don't have them

As for vitality in 70 minutes survival, they don't make the game to be played that long. The missions are made for a short time play (5 - 30 minutes) and I kind of seeing that how people would abandon nearly everything even their health playing games, they might want to avoid that

[Famecans]

4 hours ago, ZeroX4 said:

Because you are player not developer

You dont need to be concern for populating missions you only care to progress

Because if we are talking about being able to trade player to player
Now imagine if we dont need to buy kuva for SE or do kuva siphons and floods or kuva survivals
If we could trade any other resources for it
Who would be farming it? Higher MR players who swim in many different resources?
Or maybe low MR players who need that resources and that would be best option for them to get it

Which would result in making content island for lower MR players and higher who would farm only most demanded resources?

If we talk about player to npc/market trades
Then again ppl would not do stuff they are not happy with like for some it would be not going for argon crystals while others for orokin cells and so go on
They would go for other content leaving content which they can avoid un-populated
And like with weapons golden rule THERE ALWAYS WILL BE META

Or to put it simple imagine you want to revive PVP in warframe and what you do? You give worthy rewards for participating in PVP
But then you also give option for players to buy all PVP rewards for rewards from other activities
And puff you just killed PVP before you even revived it

Believe me i wish for a system where i can unfairly trade 1 resource to another but there is a reason why we dont have it

yes, no one here is a developer, we are just talking illusions in a forum far from developers. 🤷‍♂️

@subject: connecting the value of a resource to the drop chance would be perfect. it is impossible for the player to obtain kuva through exchange, he needs to spend energy or buy energy from someone else, as that's how it works in the real world.

the logic is simple, if no one cultivates kuva someone will cultivate kuva because kuva is rare in the market. what gives market value to kuva is the chance to drop the units, all players in the game need to win the drop chance for any type of resource, if the resource generates many units per drop the value of this resource is lower in the pyramid of value.

DE can put kuva and rivens on the market as this will gradually absorb all of wmarket.com's platinum coffers and player resources, so the player just needs to understand that gambling generates bargaining chips for any resource and this should be saved.

[XaoGarrent]

8 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

If you have a genuine concern, hyperbole isn't going to get it addressed.  There are plenty of rewarding drop pools.

It's not hyperbole, and it is a legitimate concern.