Do we really need more Warframes?

[(PSN)CommanderC2121]

31 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Why? You give DE free license to throw in anything without any standard of quality. 

The only recent update I think wasnt a good standard of quality was inital release Railjack. Every other update has released relatively well, and major bugs have been fixed rapidly. If you want a release with no bugs at all, you ask the impossible. 
 

Sure, some frames/weapons/mechanics may release weak, but we see DE works to improve them regardless. Id argue Yareli still needs help, but shes is still better then on release. 

31 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

If you do not demand better standards your game will go down eventually. The companies throws crap at us because we consume it. It is what it is.

This is subjective, because Id argue little to none of the recent updates have been crap. 

31 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

If we stop consuming it, they will be forced to put more effort on their product. 
 

The forums, even reddit, are a vocal minority and nothing less. To presume we could change things simply by not playing is presumptive. 

31 minutes ago, Felsagger said:

Let me ask you a question. Do you want quality on the games you play? 

Yes, which is why I play this game and not S#&$ like CoD, Fortnite, etc. Funny enough, because its subjective, there are likely people even in these forums to disagree with the games I listed as low quality because that is the nature of subjectivity. 

[Felsagger]

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I'll answer simply. What I demand from DE is to NOT stop the Warframe experiment. Obviously I must like the "crap" because I still play after 2,085 days...over 1800 of which I actively logged in and played. That must mean I enjoy the quality and overall product. 

That's your choice. Perfectly valid. You play what you like. 

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I don't play or use what I don't like. Do you?

I ask for quality. Simple. If this game doesn't provide what I want, I play something else. However I don't call any of the game I listed perfect either. See? 

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Lastly, please stop talking about dumb things like "it will go down eventually".

Say hi to Cyberpunk 77. 

Look at the quantity of bugs this game produces when new content goes out. Let me remind you of an old story called Railjack. Should I type it here? No, you already went through it. 

15 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

For an 8+ year game, that is the weakest statement possible. I get you enjoy channeling your inner lawyer (I do too sometimes) but that is a very dumb argument to make when discussing one of the longest running, non sequel games ever made.

Is it dumb to score Warframe a 10 out of 10? Yes, it is. Games are not perfect. 

If we don't critique things, they do not improve. We send the developer the wrong message of conformism. 

14 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

The only recent update I think wasnt a good standard of quality was inital release Railjack. Every other update has released relatively well, and major bugs have been fixed rapidly. If you want a release with no bugs at all, you ask the impossible. 

Insomniac's Spider Man had a lot of bugs but the game was PLAYABLE. So was Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart. The same happened with Guerrilla's Horizon Zero Dawn. These games where far from perfect. They had bugs, lots of them. But do you know why developer fixed them? We pointed them out. We recorded the videos and then we informed the developers. What developers did? Improve the game for the better. 

Is it possible to say the same with Rail Jack when it went out and DE went on vacation? How much it took to play the thing when it was announced. How much it took to fix the thing when it launched in a bad shape? 

On top of that you want new bugged warframes when there's a world to fix in this game? 

14 hours ago, (PSN)CommanderC2121 said:

 This is subjective, because Id argue little to none of the recent updates have been crap. 

The forums, even reddit, are a vocal minority and nothing less. To presume we could change things simply by not playing is presumptive. 

You do realize that the voice of many made lots of developers to rewind their plans right? You do know that many youtubers pointed out flaws and games improved for the better right? Well, the history is there. I think that our voice is not a minority. 

The community flipped the table few times pushing DE to rework their stuff. If we simply accept and move on, yes we will end up with low quality, lower with what we have now. At least there are many members here that care for the game, record the bugs or instances and report to DE. We do for free the work that DE is supposed to do when they release new stuff. At least WE are interested on some quality in the game. If you are not interested, fine. I respect your decision.  

 

This game needs to fix what is already in it. Fix the frames, fix the bugs and then move forward with new warframes. In that strict order. 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

1 hour ago, Felsagger said:

Is it dumb to score Warframe a 10 out of 10? Yes, it is. Games are not perfect. 

If we don't critique things, they do not improve. We send the developer the wrong message of conformism. 

No, it is not dumb to score something 10 out of 10. A flaw does not discredit the score if the overall satisfaction is a 10 out of 10. I am thoroughly satisfied with the product, flaws and all. Overall value is perfect, again, as testament to my many years of playing. 

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Yes, correct. For example Fortnite. Success doesn't imply quality. 

Team based games depends on one thing. SKILL. 

If you suck at the game, uninstall. or 'git gud'. 

If you are good at the game, keep playing. 

Team based games requires coordination and of course interactivity. That demands something that we lost over all these years. INTELLIGENCE. 

It's good that Warframe doesn't impose team play over the individual. You can play the game the way you see fit. But there is a component of the game based on team play mechanics. It's there. 

The question is: why warframe is loosing player retention?

Very passionate words, but being an armchair developer that can say empty platitudes is different than what's real. 

People will keep playing a game regardless what some random thinks of their skill. You're one person with some flawed ideas, there's nothing groundbreaking here, sorry. People aren't gonna just uninstall a game because they caused a raid wipe.

Intelligence means many things. If you're not aware, there are Intelligent people that can't do things other Intelligent people can do.

 

[Felsagger]

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Very passionate words, but being an armchair developer that can say empty platitudes is different than what's real. 

I know my position in the Darwinian chain. I'm simply the player who plays a video game. I practice architecture, that's my field. I can't say how DE should practice their business. However we know how things roll for us players on the other side of the fence. 

My input will be from the player point of view. No one here is an armchair developer. That leads nowhere. But one thing is for sure. If the game suck duodenum we are going to point it out or if the game has a success we are going to point it out too on equal length. 

That's the reason why we have forums. 

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

People will keep playing a game regardless what some random thinks of their skill.

I don't intend to make people quit from Warframe. That's up to them. 

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

You're one person with some flawed ideas,

If you consider that a flawed idea is to ask for minimum quality standard then I wish you good luck. 

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

there's nothing groundbreaking here, sorry. People aren't gonna just uninstall a game because they caused a raid wipe.

I don't suggest that either. However the market keeps adding games. DE must adapt to the trends or simply play lottery with their luck. That's up to them. Right now the game is INERT. The game needs updates. 

12 minutes ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Intelligence means many things. If you're not aware, there are Intelligent people that can't do things other Intelligent people can do.

Intelligence has a fundamental ingredient: discern. People discern between what is a good policy from a bad one. People discern what are good team mates from bad ones. The same happens with games and developers. People see through the actions that happened in history and decide to stay or simply try something else. You are free to enjoy crap. If you like crap, that's perfectly fine. No one should judge you for it. It's your decision.  Some people like Fortnite. Roblox or Apex Legends. It's perfectly reasonable. However not everybody is a conformist. 

 But you are right.....it's a matter of preferences....

[blazinvire]

9 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Sorry but it's not me, DE or us that's not listening. We ALL, as adults, understand the vet issue. I AM a vet. What I'm saying is DE is not the issue, your feelings are. Drop the emotions.

Here's the line in the sand: Warframe is an expanding saga that, while expanding, is experimenting with tech and ideas NO OTHER game has done in this collective scope. The devs have listened, agreed, disagreed, tried, succeeded, failed, placed on hold and retried countless requests as well as their own ideas. They've openly said this to us. In other words, listening to ideas on a Tuesday in 2015 can take till 2017 to implement just one of those ideas...IF IT FITS OR CAN WORK. That idea had to fit somewhere between Plains of Eidolons big project release crunch as well as Fortuna's bigger project while also interfering with the Railjack developing project and Scarlet Spear new innovation test (aka the raids 2.0 initial test vets asked for) Now...should we recall the Scarlet Spear backlash from those vets who didn't listen to what it was actually about (ironic) or the "content drought" stupidity vets ranted about after PoE? Drop the emotions.

How much time does it take to turn a forum post idea into actual, playable reality? Even better: how many commenters here have already explained that OVERPLAYING IS THE PROBLEM? DE knows this problem exists and they absolutely CANNOT just give us old heads the love we all.individually.want. Youtubers that bark loudest don't speak for me and, luckily, DE recognizes that, however it seems people latch on to those few players' loud barks and think it's what we all want. Nope. Drop the emotions.

I hear you bro, I really do. The reality is the game is not going to give you experience 1.0 back. That's not something DE can do for you and shouldn't try. They are on a schedule to fully complete the story and have to carefully weigh how much of a backlog your or millions other player suggestions could create. It is YOUR job to pace yourself, experience as it comes and try new things. Or don't. As for me, I've played long enough to clock in over 2000 hours over nearly 6 years...which some consider to be baby time. Fortunately, that pacing and understanding of the game's sirection has me scoring the game at 10 out of 10. 

I must've worded my post incorrectly, I'm burned out, I don't have energy for emotions.

Not quite sure where you're getting half of the stuff you seem to have issue with in regards to me.  All I've wanted was a damage system update that makes it so I don't get one-shotted all the time, or have to shoot damage sponges all the time.
And I've been waiting 7 years for it.
I didn't ask for this yesterday.

I want a Time-To-Kill system, where players always have a reasonable amount of time to save themselves before they die, instead of 0.05 seconds.
Time-To-Kill for enemies, where players aren't necessarily one-shotting absolutely everything, or spending 5minutes on one enemy because the scaling went weird and corrosive/slash has become so meta it's now expected to be brought.
Or DE having to rely on invulnerability phases just so players don't instantly delete the room.  Or nullifiers because they can't balance powers.

I want to be able to play the game.  I don't want to feel forced to CC the entire room permanently just so I have a chance to fight back.
I want to be able to engage with the content, instead of doing everything in my power to avoid it because either I die in one hit, or they die in one hit.
Either I'm invincible so it doesn't matter if they shoot me, or I'm invisible and they can't shoot me, or they're CC'd and can't shoot me, or they're straight up dead before they've entered line of sight.  Or I'm dead.
That's not gameplay, that's puzzle solving, and the puzzle is as difficult as 1+1.

Every time I come back to this game to try new content, regardless of whether it's been two months or two years since I last played, it always plays out the same.
For the first hour while I'm knocking the rust off and re-learning how to play, it's quite fun.
But then I hit the new content and the difficulty 'ramps up', and I just get one-shotted instantly from somewhere I couldn't have predicted, when I had a considerable amount of health, shields and armour, and I just go straight to zero like none of that actually matters.
And when I want to kill things, the strongest weapon I own is knocking pixels off the enemy health bars no matter what setup I bring, until I bring either corrosive or invest in slash procs.

This isn't some whimsical request.  I'm not whining about nerfing or buffing crap.  I'm asking for DE to fix a system that has been broken for years, and the longer they leave it broken the bigger of a chore it's going to become, and the less they're going to want to fix it.

If they fix their damage system, it'll make absolutely every single part of this game so much easier to build upon/expand; the entire game's foundation rests upon the damage system, and it is dilapidated and covered in band-aids.
Imagine never having to ask for nerfs or buffs or reworks of frames.  Or weapons.  Or enemies.
Never having to waste time going back to adjust things because the latest content invalidated it or broke it.
They wouldn't have to split their workforce between new frames and old frames.
New content wouldn't be tripping over the broken pavement of old foundations.

And what kills me the most is that for a moment they seemed like they were getting there.  Railjack was supposed to be trialing a new damage system.  They started creating test servers to help fix things.
And then they dropped the idea and went back to doing whatever they feel like.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

4 minutes ago, blazinvire said:

I must've worded my post incorrectly, I'm burned out, I don't have energy for emotions.

Not quite sure where you're getting half of the stuff you seem to have issue with in regards to me.  All I've wanted was a damage system update that makes it so I don't get one-shotted all the time, or have to shoot damage sponges all the time.
And I've been waiting 7 years for it.
I didn't ask for this yesterday.

I want a Time-To-Kill system, where players always have a reasonable amount of time to save themselves before they die, instead of 0.05 seconds.
Time-To-Kill for enemies, where players aren't necessarily one-shotting absolutely everything, or spending 5minutes on one enemy because the scaling went weird and corrosive/slash has become so meta it's now expected to be brought.
Or DE having to rely on invulnerability phases just so players don't instantly delete the room.  Or nullifiers because they can't balance powers.

I want to be able to play the game.  I don't want to feel forced to CC the entire room permanently just so I have a chance to fight back.
I want to be able to engage with the content, instead of doing everything in my power to avoid it because either I die in one hit, or they die in one hit.
Either I'm invincible so it doesn't matter if they shoot me, or I'm invisible and they can't shoot me, or they're CC'd and can't shoot me, or they're straight up dead before they've entered line of sight.  Or I'm dead.
That's not gameplay, that's puzzle solving, and the puzzle is as difficult as 1+1.

Every time I come back to this game to try new content, regardless of whether it's been two months or two years since I last played, it always plays out the same.
For the first hour while I'm knocking the rust off and re-learning how to play, it's quite fun.
But then I hit the new content and the difficulty 'ramps up', and I just get one-shotted instantly from somewhere I couldn't have predicted, when I had a considerable amount of health, shields and armour, and I just go straight to zero like none of that actually matters.
And when I want to kill things, the strongest weapon I own is knocking pixels off the enemy health bars no matter what setup I bring, until I bring either corrosive or invest in slash procs.

This isn't some whimsical request.  I'm not whining about nerfing or buffing crap.  I'm asking for DE to fix a system that has been broken for years, and the longer they leave it broken the bigger of a chore it's going to become, and the less they're going to want to fix it.

If they fix their damage system, it'll make absolutely every single part of this game so much easier to build upon/expand; the entire game's foundation rests upon the damage system, and it is dilapidated and covered in band-aids.
Imagine never having to ask for nerfs or buffs or reworks of frames.  Or weapons.  Or enemies.
Never having to waste time going back to adjust things because the latest content invalidated it or broke it.
They wouldn't have to split their workforce between new frames and old frames.
New content wouldn't be tripping over the broken pavement of old foundations.

And what kills me the most is that for a moment they seemed like they were getting there.  Railjack was supposed to be trialing a new damage system.  They started creating test servers to help fix things.
And then they dropped the idea and went back to doing whatever they feel like.

I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from but I guess the confusion for me is we're talking about the exact same game yet I have no clue what you're talking about in regards to getting constantly one-shotted. Honesty I don't. My Yureli in Mot example was me telling you that I tried to use a squishy frame as reference and still could not replicate your one-shot or quick death scenario. Perhaps because I auto adjust to be highly mobile with weaker frames is the difference? I'm not sure but perhaps an example of a stage wrecking you could help.

Now, that all said, Steel Path and Railjack are different beasts. If your issue is with these two game modes then the discussion changes completely. In this case, we're supposed to be in tip top form to survive and Yureli can only handle about 2-3 post shield gated hits. I managed 36 minutes before my first death on Jupiter but ultimate made it to am hour, utilizing the exact same setup for her and swapping for mag+toxin builds. I don't usually stand still and, if I do, it's at a location with three sides covered and a door. What's your usual setup?

Finally, I think the issue with your "fix the damage system" comment is that other players boast how easy the game is and want even more of what you don't like. Who does DE listen to? I agree that Warframes should be able to take more hits but it's hard to justify that when we're discussing multiple, player selectable suits of armor with strengths and weaknesses and not a permanent character. In essence, I don't have to use Yureli and, instead, can use the best frame for the job.

Either way, I think if DE attempts to make you happy, they're gonna piss off your counter thinkers...and we'll be right back at square one.

[blazinvire]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

I'm really trying to understand where you're coming from but I guess the confusion for me is we're talking about the exact same game yet I have no clue what you're talking about in regards to getting constantly one-shotted. Honesty I don't. My Yureli in Mot example was me telling you that I tried to use a squishy frame as reference and still could not replicate your one-shot or quick death scenario. Perhaps because I auto adjust to be highly mobile with weaker frames is the difference? I'm not sure but perhaps an example of a stage wrecking you could help.

Now, that all said, Steel Path and Railjack are different beasts. If your issue is with these two game modes then the discussion changes completely. In this case, we're supposed to be in tip top form to survive and Yureli can only handle about 2-3 post shield gated hits. I managed 36 minutes before my first death on Jupiter but ultimate made it to am hour, utilizing the exact same setup for her and swapping for mag+toxin builds. I don't usually stand still and, if I do, it's at a location with three sides covered and a door. What's your usual setup?

Finally, I think the issue with your "fix the damage system" comment is that other players boast how easy the game is and want even more of what you don't like. Who does DE listen to? I agree that Warframes should be able to take more hits but it's hard to justify that when we're discussing multiple, player selectable suits of armor with strengths and weaknesses and not a permanent character. In essence, I don't have to use Yureli and, instead, can use the best frame for the job.

Either way, I think if DE attempts to make you happy, they're gonna piss off your counter thinkers...and we'll be right back at square one.

Oi vey, trying to recall all the moments that annoyed me is going to be a fun trip...

But like, lets for example examine my last foray into Deimos where I was sprinkling damage on a Necramech, and then it swings its sword once and a slash proc kills me immediately, or with tankier frames I survive for an extra second before the second tick kills me.
Or trying to defend the Bait Station and something shoots me in the back and deletes my 1.1k shields, where I survive on sheer virtue of the shield gate, and then before I can figure out where it's coming from so I can either hide or kill the thing hitting me, I get hit again and die.

I'm never given a reasonable opportunity to defend myself that doesn't involve flat out bypassing the damage system entirely by using invisibility or what have you, and those abilities are so strong I don't know why I shouldn't just spam them, which means the game goes from stupidly difficult to mind-numbingly easy with a click of a button.

Now don't focus too hard on that one situation, because I've been on-and-off with Warframe for those 7 years and each time I came back it's been the exact same experience, I could probably produce a mountain of these scenarios if I did some digging, I just don't quite have a lot of energy due to this topic tending to burn me out a little bit.

I'm just someone who thinks we can absolutely have a win-win situation, have our cake and eat it too kinda deal, if we just got clever with designing the damage system.
I'm no genius nor game developer, but even I can see some algorithmic tricks one can pull to make the job practically automated; I've even seen other games do something like that, like Skyforge figuring out a scaling system -though it has it's own flaws I don't want to go into- and Vermintide dynamically adjusting horde difficulty based on player performance, so there's absolutely a way to satisfy both parties here.

You can boil down every frame and every weapon into a series of basic variables, measuring how much damage it can do in a given situation, and you can math the crap out of it, which means you can apply and algorithm to it.  Which means you can get the computer to calculate the effectiveness of a weapon -or combination of variables.

Except every time I talk about this, I either get flat out ignored or the thread immediately dies.  I don't know if it's because people agree with me but don't say anything, or people ignore me because they can't pick my argument apart or maybe people can't be bothered reading it, I dunno.
All I know is I feel like my attempts to find that magical win-win situation always falls on deaf ears.

I could probably figure out how to fix Warframe's damage system perfectly if given the opportunity, despite not being an actual programmer, simply because it's a convoluted logic/maths puzzle and those are kind of my jam.

I even tried compiling all of my algorithms a couple of times, but I'd always get demotivated because I knew no one was going to read it so I was mostly wasting my time.

You could absolutely get the computer to balance everything for you, so regardless of what frame or weapon setup you pick, there'll be a fair and rewarding solution.
This I know without a doubt.  And DE has the right kind of people, and the potential, to be able to pull off something that epic.
I know they could.  They've already rocked the world a few times.

[Alpheus]

On 2021-10-23 at 3:18 PM, AJAL8000 said:

Bruh, Khora is actualy a Spider-themed frame.

It was the inspiration for her design, but it's not her thing, ya know? I'm talking full-on spider head, web/venom abilities, spider passive, the works. Something you can see in action and go "that is definitely a spider frame" like you can immediately recognize Ember as being one with the fire.

[pook-pook]

More frames! More variety! Apart from Yareli, I see all the recent frames being played. Sadly I don't think I can recall the last time I saw a Hydroid :P

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

Is it too much to ask for both?

More Warframes while focusing on older outdated ones.

With each Warframe DE gets a chance to Experiment with something new or unusual.

Like with grendel, or sevagoth, or even Yareli, despite being complete garbage, she is somewhat of an experiment, i could've never imagined K-drive in normal missions but here we are.

The more successful new Warframes we get the better the odds of going back to older Warframes and give them the same treatment with better tech and ideas

I don't think DE was capable of making Nyx's mind control target teleport to you after a certain distance, but here we are, we're getting it next update.

 

TL;DR we need new Warframes to try new things, ideas and combinations which would also help older Warframes in the long run

 

[SneakyErvin]

18 hours ago, Twin_Fawn said:

Carrying out a complex rotation of 20+ abilities at a high level of competency while dealing with other factors including weaving, random procs, team boosts and such while also adjusting to add phases, transitions and heavy mechanics is very much a skill. Side note: Macros don't work in XIV for combat. They don't queue tight to each other (on purpose), you can use them to craft, or maybe do a basic attack rotation while leveling your Paladin or whatever but you'd be dumped by your raid group for using them.

When did they remove that from FFXIV? I played it right at the re-release and you could make perfectly fine macros for combat in that game aslong as you made sure to include delay input based on the GCD, just as it worked in WoW. I used it back then for Summoner, Warrior and Black Mage.

 

23 hours ago, Felsagger said:

Yes, correct. For example Fortnite. Success doesn't imply quality. 

Didnt notice that statement yesterday so I gotta ask today. Do you imply Fortnite lacks quality? If so I'd have to say quality isnt the problem with Fortnite. The only thing that drags Fortnite down is the community and that Epic were dishonest regarding the PvE part of the game people payed for. The quality was always there, the PvE part of the game was better than most full releases even in the early access stage. It was probably one of the best co-op "tower defense" "survival" third person shooters out there. The BR part of the game also blew away the competition, since it ran smooth, had a varried and big enough map and a netcode with hit-reg that actually worked, plus you could build in it.

The happy graphics and cartoony style have however had negative impact on the game, since it attracts toxic people to an immense degree, many of them very young people.

[Felsagger]

 

4 hours ago, (PSN)Hopper_Orouk said:

 

With each Warframe DE gets a chance to Experiment with something new or unusual.

 

I was thinking about a Warframe with four hands. I enjoyed Sevagoth a bit. Reminded me Nocturne. There are few ideas that where unexplored. War Frames with four hands would be great. Other ideas like Artillery Warframes with more weapon slots would be great. 

[Emolition]

Need more warframes that fits my playstyle and look cool and are fun to play the tripple treat combo =)

[SneakyErvin]

46 minutes ago, Emolition said:

Need more warframes that fits my playstyle and look cool and are fun to play the tripple treat combo =)

I think that is really the only reason we need for new frames. Even though there are plenty of misses, some manage to be hits for me. If DE didnt make new frames I wouldnt have found Lavos, Rev and Protea, and other players wouldnt have found the Xaku's or some other new frame. Even though the Xaku's arent my cup of tea, I love that someone else finds much enjoyment and success with them.

[(PSN)Unstar]

The short answer is that this thread is built on a false premise: that "development of new Warframes" and "bug-fixes and tuning" each tap from the same resource pool, and that reducing one will increase the other.  That's not the way DE operates.  DE specifically segregates their programming staff into rotating "development" and "support" teams, and they have good reasons for this so I wouldn't expect them to change.  In other words, if new Warframes aren't being developed, something else will be developed instead, and that displaced labor will not result in more bug-fixes.  So if OP really wants bugs to be fixed, this is an ineffective way to go about it.

 

[Emolition]

45 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

I think that is really the only reason we need for new frames. Even though there are plenty of misses, some manage to be hits for me. If DE didnt make new frames I wouldnt have found Lavos, Rev and Protea, and other players wouldnt have found the Xaku's or some other new frame. Even though the Xaku's arent my cup of tea, I love that someone else finds much enjoyment and success with them.

xaku is my dps frame =)  but my go to atm are nyx or wisp 

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

12 hours ago, blazinvire said:

Oi vey, trying to recall all the moments that annoyed me is going to be a fun trip...

But like, lets for example examine my last foray into Deimos where I was sprinkling damage on a Necramech, and then it swings its sword once and a slash proc kills me immediately, or with tankier frames I survive for an extra second before the second tick kills me.
Or trying to defend the Bait Station and something shoots me in the back and deletes my 1.1k shields, where I survive on sheer virtue of the shield gate, and then before I can figure out where it's coming from so I can either hide or kill the thing hitting me, I get hit again and die.

I'm never given a reasonable opportunity to defend myself that doesn't involve flat out bypassing the damage system entirely by using invisibility or what have you, and those abilities are so strong I don't know why I shouldn't just spam them, which means the game goes from stupidly difficult to mind-numbingly easy with a click of a button.

Now don't focus too hard on that one situation, because I've been on-and-off with Warframe for those 7 years and each time I came back it's been the exact same experience, I could probably produce a mountain of these scenarios if I did some digging, I just don't quite have a lot of energy due to this topic tending to burn me out a little bit.

I'm just someone who thinks we can absolutely have a win-win situation, have our cake and eat it too kinda deal, if we just got clever with designing the damage system.
I'm no genius nor game developer, but even I can see some algorithmic tricks one can pull to make the job practically automated; I've even seen other games do something like that, like Skyforge figuring out a scaling system -though it has it's own flaws I don't want to go into- and Vermintide dynamically adjusting horde difficulty based on player performance, so there's absolutely a way to satisfy both parties here.

You can boil down every frame and every weapon into a series of basic variables, measuring how much damage it can do in a given situation, and you can math the crap out of it, which means you can apply and algorithm to it.  Which means you can get the computer to calculate the effectiveness of a weapon -or combination of variables.

Except every time I talk about this, I either get flat out ignored or the thread immediately dies.  I don't know if it's because people agree with me but don't say anything, or people ignore me because they can't pick my argument apart or maybe people can't be bothered reading it, I dunno.
All I know is I feel like my attempts to find that magical win-win situation always falls on deaf ears.

I could probably figure out how to fix Warframe's damage system perfectly if given the opportunity, despite not being an actual programmer, simply because it's a convoluted logic/maths puzzle and those are kind of my jam.

I even tried compiling all of my algorithms a couple of times, but I'd always get demotivated because I knew no one was going to read it so I was mostly wasting my time.

You could absolutely get the computer to balance everything for you, so regardless of what frame or weapon setup you pick, there'll be a fair and rewarding solution.
This I know without a doubt.  And DE has the right kind of people, and the potential, to be able to pull off something that epic.
I know they could.  They've already rocked the world a few times.

Ahh, gotcha. Your example sets a good tone to describe why we see differently although I definitely now understand where you're coming from. I think the challenge to your quest for an improved damage system starts with redefining how warframe sees damage reduction. 

Parkour, operators, regen mods, improved shields, shield gating, an overwhelmingly powerful arsenal and transference are the tools DE considers damage reduction, primarily due to the games extremely high pace. As I see it, Warframe's lower levels (30 and less) doesn't need most of this unless facing The Arena, The Index, eidolon and orb spider bosses. Mid levels (31-80 and less) usually does require these tools and 80+ levels definitely need them. Add in Steel Path, Deimos Iso Vaults and Railjack and mods like adaptation and rolling guard will come into play on some frames. 

Now, the above is just MY view and is based on my play style. In contrast, I observed playing with my friend yesterday and she is doesn't move much. She 100% needs all of the tools at early levels because she's an easy target and relies on aoe weapons and powers. She, like you, hates how easy it is for frames to be killed so she sticks with Rhino, Nehza, etc. and is very afraid to touch Steel Path and Railjack. I don't know your style but less movement means easy pickings and I don't think DE wants to change the game into an all Inaros feel.

I think these examples may define the pathway however I'm your weak point because I think Warframe doesn't need completely revised algorithms. I would've agreed BEFORE the damage and shield rework DE did but, now, I think the only change they need to make is to get rid of the shield gating exploits and scale shields a bit in SP. I say all of this because I think all of the higher levels should be hard. I see too many players claiming the game is easy but admit they're using exploits. Remove those first, let those people complain how hard the game is now and then we, perhaps, bring you in as the ultimate problem solver?

[Felsagger]

1 hour ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Ahh, gotcha. Your example sets a good tone to describe why we see differently although I definitely now understand where you're coming from. I think the challenge to your quest for an improved damage system starts with redefining how warframe sees damage reduction. 

Parkour, operators, regen mods, improved shields, shield gating, an overwhelmingly powerful arsenal and transference are the tools DE considers damage reduction, primarily due to the games extremely high pace. As I see it, Warframe's lower levels (30 and less) doesn't need most of this unless facing The Arena, The Index, eidolon and orb spider bosses. Mid levels (31-80 and less) usually does require these tools and 80+ levels definitely need them. Add in Steel Path, Deimos Iso Vaults and Railjack and mods like adaptation and rolling guard will come into play on some frames. 

Now, the above is just MY view and is based on my play style. In contrast, I observed playing with my friend yesterday and she is doesn't move much. She 100% needs all of the tools at early levels because she's an easy target and relies on aoe weapons and powers. She, like you, hates how easy it is for frames to be killed so she sticks with Rhino, Nehza, etc. and is very afraid to touch Steel Path and Railjack. I don't know your style but less movement means easy pickings and I don't think DE wants to change the game into an all Inaros feel.

I think these examples may define the pathway however I'm your weak point because I think Warframe doesn't need completely revised algorithms. I would've agreed BEFORE the damage and shield rework DE did but, now, I think the only change they need to make is to get rid of the shield gating exploits and scale shields a bit in SP. I say all of this because I think all of the higher levels should be hard. I see too many players claiming the game is easy but admit they're using exploits. Remove those first, let those people complain how hard the game is now and then we, perhaps, bring you in as the ultimate problem solver?

I'll join. 

 

The structure of this game is based on speed. The tenno transference, the parkour mechanics and the quick switch between melee and primary is the formula that established a solidity of this franchise. Halo Infinite is doing a return with the tow cable seen in recent games like Doom Eternal. We are seeing a progress of parkour gaming with Lucio in Overwatch. Yes, Warframe can have all of this and much more. Should I want more of it? Yes. 

Spiderman was a complete success. The game Ratchet & Clank introduced parkour elements to the formula of mobility. Batman used the tow cable to impulse himself in Arkham city. Halo Infinite proposed open levels for acrobatic strategies in mid air. Warframe, the game that is supposed to do all this, SHOULD return to THESE ROOTS. Warframe is a parkour game where the level is the main protagonist. We have many frames that responds to this. Do we want wall running and few other parkour abilities back? Yes, please. 

Warframe already delivered on the topic of 'in flight' casting and 'in flight maneuvers'. Was that good? Of course. This is why I return to the game. When I play Lucio I find some of that game play here. When I play Pharah, I find portion of that game play in Warframe. When I play Titan Fall 2, I find few of the great parkour done in Titan Fall 2. What Warframe does good? The parkour speed and maneuverability. This is why the game is so strong despite all the catastrophic mishaps of it with the updates. 

Why this formula sustain itself? Mobility. Why it endured so much time? Mobility and transference with your tenno. Why this became a quick reflexes game? You can aim shoot and melee in mid air. This was and will be the main staple of what Warframe is. It is about the parkour, maneuvers, the wall ride, the wall jumping, the wall running, the double and a possible triple impulsive jump. The way the player interacts with the level is the best feature in the game. It's far from perfect but is there, it's good, it's satisfying. 

Why not focus on this aggressively? It evolved in nine years up to this point. You see games like Doom Eternal, Halo Infinite, Battlefield 2042 and even Titan Fall 2 being influenced by the parkour of Warframe. 

 

If the new warframes adds more to the parkour. Please keep them comming. 

If the new levels adds more freedom for maneuverability, please let them come. Mars tile set was fascinating. 

We have railjacks, nechramechs, k drives, archwings and so on. The key feature of all this IS the parkour. I would love to see more of it in newer warframes. 

 

 

There.

 

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

If anything the game needs to get back to Warframes having more of a focus. Some of the best moments of the game are Warframe quests (Silver Grove, Chains of Harrow, Octavias Anthem) 

The thing is: The game is starting to feel bloated. We have  Operators  archguns, Nechramecs and KDrives. 

I don't want to see Mechs added to the regular tilesets. The game needs to be more about its namesake: WARFRAMEs. 

I'd rather see expanded combat options for our Operators then anything else added that's not a Warframe.

Because everything else added is starting to get become a bit too much.

[CephalonCarnage]

On 2021-10-23 at 7:53 AM, blazinvire said:

If there was another game like Warframe out there, that actually fixed its problems

Warframe V2, the ninja assassin version where stealth, distraction and general spy-y gameplay are heavily prioritised. They could do this, reuse the entire codebase and rework the enemy numbers, levels and damage system, with new (or old) warframes whose abilities are much less powerful and they'd then have 2 streams of revenue with only minor added cost.

[blazinvire]

7 hours ago, (PSN)GEN-Son_17 said:

Ahh, gotcha. Your example sets a good tone to describe why we see differently although I definitely now understand where you're coming from. I think the challenge to your quest for an improved damage system starts with redefining how warframe sees damage reduction. 

Parkour, operators, regen mods, improved shields, shield gating, an overwhelmingly powerful arsenal and transference are the tools DE considers damage reduction, primarily due to the games extremely high pace. As I see it, Warframe's lower levels (30 and less) doesn't need most of this unless facing The Arena, The Index, eidolon and orb spider bosses. Mid levels (31-80 and less) usually does require these tools and 80+ levels definitely need them. Add in Steel Path, Deimos Iso Vaults and Railjack and mods like adaptation and rolling guard will come into play on some frames. 

Now, the above is just MY view and is based on my play style. In contrast, I observed playing with my friend yesterday and she is doesn't move much. She 100% needs all of the tools at early levels because she's an easy target and relies on aoe weapons and powers. She, like you, hates how easy it is for frames to be killed so she sticks with Rhino, Nehza, etc. and is very afraid to touch Steel Path and Railjack. I don't know your style but less movement means easy pickings and I don't think DE wants to change the game into an all Inaros feel.

I think these examples may define the pathway however I'm your weak point because I think Warframe doesn't need completely revised algorithms. I would've agreed BEFORE the damage and shield rework DE did but, now, I think the only change they need to make is to get rid of the shield gating exploits and scale shields a bit in SP. I say all of this because I think all of the higher levels should be hard. I see too many players claiming the game is easy but admit they're using exploits. Remove those first, let those people complain how hard the game is now and then we, perhaps, bring you in as the ultimate problem solver?

Well, the thing is, my algorithm suggestion would enable DE to manipulate gameplay so that everyone gets to play the way they want, so you don't have to worry about the game slowing down too much.  You can absolutely keep difficulty high with just a single tweak.
Because for example, if Time-To-Kill player is 3 seconds, and Time-To-Kill enemy is 3 seconds, that means the player has do to SOMETHING to save themselves, something to influence the algorithm to push the TTK in their favour.  So just like that you can actually measure 'difficulty' using an algorithm, and have all the other variable tweak themselves dynamically to maintain whatever feel you want for the game.
You could adjust the difficulty of every single fight according to the skill level of the player.

And since difficulty is now in the algorithm, you can use another algorithm to moderate reward rates, so people challenging higher difficulties can get rewarded appropriately etcetera, so people's time and energy invested are properly compensated for.  The people who put in basically zero effort get basically zero rewards, etcetera.

I get your reasoning behind getting rid of exploits so people actually understand the game better, but the game has had these exploits in the system for so long it's built countermeasures and aspects that expect the player to be using these exploits.  It's kind of turned into a war of Cheese.
Like that Thermal Fracture event on Venus didn't used to have nullification bombs, likely because people were afking fractures with the exploitable powers, and is now just an extremely irritating mechanic for regular people who were just trying to do the event.
Likewise, player power and durability has gotten so crazy that the window of opportunity to actually threaten a player has gotten so small, that unless the enemy can kill a player in under half a second, that enemy is actually a waste of space and can't ever hurt the player ever.
Shield-gating was basically a band-aid to try and reduce the number of people dying in half a second, but it kinda just made things worse.
They want to give us the power fantasy, but then they flick the switch on the power fantasy whenever it gets inconvenient, because they can't figure out how to balance their stuff properly.  Which I get.  Which is why I suggest the algorithm option, because it will do all the hard work for them.

[T-Shark69]

17 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

The short answer is that this thread is built on a false premise: that "development of new Warframes" and "bug-fixes and tuning" each tap from the same resource pool, and that reducing one will increase the other. 

Didn't Pablo basically say thats the case in the latest Tennocon? "If Im working on a rework I'm not wokring on smth new"

Not exact quote but found the video : https://youtu.be/Ql_W9_2-18M?t=1674 (question asked at 27:54)

 

[(PSN)Vexx757]

I see where your coming from but I want them to keep making more warframe, they are concept I want to see in the game. Compared to the horrible concepts we got last year on the community warframe ideas (ballerina frame), I can come up with 10 concepts right now that ppl will like.

Concepts:

Spoiler

Samurai

Mech

Karma

Time

Kunoichi

Genie

Werewolf

Spartan

Teleportation

Vampire

 

 

Speaking of bugs and inconsistencies, Ash has one where his teleport can`t consistently open humanoid enemies to finishers and can`t open enemies to finishers that are under a heat and electric status effect and this has been in the game for years, they know about it and won`t fix it.

Here is the proof.

[(PSN)Unstar]

5 hours ago, T-Shark69 said:

Didn't Pablo basically say thats the case in the latest Tennocon? "If Im working on a rework I'm not wokring on smth new"

OP added an edit clarifying their original post, which makes it sound like they're not actually talking about reworks, but bug-fixes and tuning, so that's the angle I took with my reply.