Do we really need more Warframes?

[AJAL8000]

Since we got to 40 Warframes I have noticed that the previous 30 Warframes (approximately) have deficiencies, bugs, inconsistencies and problems with their concepts, statistics and how the abilities work.

Obviously we can all debate what things we can do to improve Hydroid, for example, but [DE] hasn't done anything about it for years, but is it really necessary to wait years?

Every time a new update comes in, old Warframes start to have bugs, oversights that do not allow them to interact well with the new content or their Skill Kit begins to get old. Given this, the less popular Warframes than the new ones or the most used ones have to wait months or years for [DE] to say "Now we are going to fix this", I don't think that's correct, but they work like that.

More Warframes for what exactly? We have almost everything already covered! And I feel that this was noticed more with Yareli. We really had the need for such a Warframe to exist?

For me, this wouldn't be a problem if [DE] properly maintained their characters. They should have a team dedicated solely to maintaining every Warframe in the game. We are currently close to 50 Warframes! How on earth are they going to keep so many Warframes so that they even keep working properly? If each Warframe has varied mechanics in their different abilities! Many Warframes have many ways to play, not just one for each and this compounds the problem.

In my personal opinion, 50 Warframes is enough, hence, they should only dedicate themselves to improving and keeping their 50 playable characters updated and fixed. Improving their skills so that everyone has a decent balance and becomes more playable and consistent with their abilities.

If you don't see the problem now, I'm sure it will be much more apparent in the future.

Edit 1: 

It seems to me that I have been a bit ambiguous, but I am not talking much about "Make Reworks and everything solved", there are several details in the powers of various Warframes that are often inconsistent.

For example, Limbo in Fortuna can take damage from various attacks from enemies that should not damage it unless they are in the same dimensional plane (This is especially noticeable with Raknoids and some special enemies like Bursas), nor can it stop in time certain Enemies hence what is he supposed to, or what is the explanation that he can't? And I speak of common enemies there. This has been the case for years and they still haven't done anything about it to make it more consistent.

Another example, the arrows of Ivara that depending on the position of Ivara with respect to an obstacle that could have behind her, the arrows of the Bow of Artemis would go anywhere except where you were aiming. This bug was around for years until [DE] later introduced Ivara Prime, where it was fixed.

And so there are actually more examples, of how it happened before and how it continues to happen now.

I would also like to mention that I also consider the visual aspect, currently there is a bug in a helmet for the Warframe Nekros, from a Tennogen skin. The same, this visual bug has been around for a long time and they still haven't fixed it.

And I'm sure there are more of these bugs out there that ruin the player experience. Shouldn't we be able to play whatever Warframe we want without having to suffer bugs or inconsistencies just because [DE] forgot these details?

Although it is true that some Warframes need retouching or Reworks, but it is not the main thing or the only thing that I am talking about here.

[ebrl]

We? No.

DE? Certainly.

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

New Warframes brings in revenue for DE so more will continue rolling out the factory.

[Tsoe]

Old warframes could bring revenue as well

i would buy skins for some frames if they were reworked

we dont even talk of full rework and animation the game have a lot of unused animation from old skills too

 

First pass could be only numbers for a lot of frame (minus inaros)

[PublikDomain]

14 minutes ago, AJAL8000 said:

For me, this wouldn't be a problem if [DE] properly maintained their characters.

Right, the number of Warframes added to the game wouldn't be a problem if DE properly maintained them. There's no need for the game called Warframe to stop adding new Warframes, what's needed is for DE put in the effort of making new frames good when they're released instead of instantly dropping their half-baked ideas like an unwanted child only to have to cough up the unpaid child support years later when a rework becomes necessary.

[Dauggie]

nah the moment new warframe stop that means less plat getting used and soon after just 2 years no new prime access so basically less revenue if they just want to sell prime vault.

in short, less revenue so that's not going to happen, i can see warframe 2 being produced but that's wishful thinking atm

[blazinvire]

Warframe is basically a sinking ship, where the crew is working their asses off trying to build the ship faster than it sinks, rather than patch the holes, because no one wants to dive below and face the horrors of the deep.

It also amusing works well as a drug metaphor; DE is our only dealer of this particular style of game, so even if they dole out complete garbage people will still buy it because something's better than nothing, they don't have any true competition so they get to call ALL the shots.
Unless 90% of the playerbase riots or a major influencer on youtube calls them out.

[Prexades]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb blazinvire:

*bittervet noises*

You are aware that you can stop playing Warframe whenever you want. Also many of said influencers have become a meme by itself how absolutely pathetic their hatred for a game they used to play, has become.

[blazinvire]

19 minutes ago, Prexades said:

You are aware that you can stop playing Warframe whenever you want. Also many of said influencers have become a meme by itself how absolutely pathetic their hatred for a game they used to play, has become.

xD Oh I know.  I know.
Believe me I know.
And I've stopped playing many times, but every now and then I see someone playing Warframe for the first time, giving me that nostalgia, and it always drags me back.
And then I always end up disappointed, and then I usually end up in the forums, resigning to desperation and despair.  Potentially spoiling other people's enjoyment of the game with my tired bitterness, and I am regretful about that.
But that's just what happens when you love something.  You try, even when it upsets you.  Even when it hurts.  Even when they ignore you.  You leave, and you always come back.

You always hear the same story with vets.  Hear them praising the game's potential, the kindness and generosity of the devs.
Pouring their hearts out, driving themselves into a frenzy trying to help.  Trying anything.  Anything.
But it falls on deaf ears.  Vets get frustrated.  Vets end up venting.
And the cycle repeats with every generation.

I wasn't lying when I referred to this game like a drug.

If there was another game like Warframe out there, that actually fixed its problems...
Well, there's a reason that competition is so important when it comes to businesses.

[LillyRaccune]

*Excalibur hosts a party where only the starter pokemon warframes are invited*

[(PSN)DoctorWho_90250]

11 minutes ago, blazinvire said:

You always hear the same story with vets.  Hear them praising the game's potential, the kindness and generosity of the devs.
Pouring their hearts out, driving themselves into a frenzy trying to help.  Trying anything.  Anything.
But it falls on deaf ears.  Vets get frustrated.  Vets end up venting.
And the cycle repeats with every generation.

I wasn't lying when I referred to this game like a drug.

If there was another game like Warframe out there, that actually fixed its problems...
Well, there's a reason that competition is so important when it comes to businesses.

People who are vocal still care about the game.

[T-Shark69]

1 hour ago, Tsoe said:

Old warframes could bring revenue as well

Yeah but new frames bring more revenue

[trst]

We'll keep getting more so long as DE is relying on Prime Access for revenue or they come up with something as/more sustainable to replace it.

Also the real problem with frame updates is the constant push for more power creep. All frames are fine until you start to compare them to the "best" frame for a specific task. Once you do that it won't matter how many frames we have or how updated they are as we'll boil that list down to five or so frames. Plus nothing in the game is challenging enough to warrant requiring the "best" of anything thus even an outdated frame is still fully functional for all content. Yes, even Hydroid is perfectly fine.

As for the Hydroid issue specifically he was already updated twice, got a prime, and a deluxe. He's now in a state where any work put into him is an even greater net loss of time and money for DE. And with reworks in general the issue DE last pointed out with them is that they don't affect a frame's play rate much at all. Making all frame updates more of a monetarily loss than anything.

[TheArmchairThinker]

2 hours ago, blazinvire said:

Warframe is basically a sinking ship, where the crew is working their asses off trying to build the ship faster than it sinks, rather than patch the holes, because no one wants to dive below and face the horrors of the deep.

It also amusing works well as a drug metaphor; DE is our only dealer of this particular style of game, so even if they dole out complete garbage people will still buy it because something's better than nothing, they don't have any true competition so they get to call ALL the shots.
Unless 90% of the playerbase riots or a major influencer on youtube calls them out.

DE is still doing decent compared to their neighbors, if I should say. They're not nerfing your gain just because players get things fast enough in the first week to pad out time with slow grind, not locking game content behind pay wall where you can only get something new to play around after spending $10 because you get nothing if you don't pay or selling story content for $40 just to get the next part of the full story, or taking away paid content because the game is "too big" and "too hard to maintain"

[Corvid]

If DE had stopped adding new frames when players said they should, I wouldn't have gotten my current main, Gauss, which is a frame that clicked for me more than any other. Since for all I know there are other players out there in a similar situation to me pre-Gauss (enjoying the game, but still awaiting that one frame that really resonates with them), my only response is "Yes, we do need more frames".

[quxier]

2 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

More Warframes for what exactly? We have almost everything already covered! And I feel that this was noticed more with Yareli. We really had the need for such a Warframe to exist?

We don't have frames for fishing, mining and conservation but that's... niche? Or how to say? I don't know. This kind of content isn't focus of frames' features. I've seen some suggestion about fishing frame but that would require lot of work.

 

Excluding things like "killing everything is best kind of CC" we have frames that specialize in certain content (e.g. defense, killers, spies). However new stuffs (not only frames) brings new way of play or just having fun.

Imagine Yareli 2.0. She has modable Merulina (K-drive), certain tricks gives you some effects (modable), slam being easy as "melee slam" and have faster/bigger slams, Merulina allows casting Helminth abilities. Now you can for example slam enemies to pull enemies to you (mod*), do a copter to proc fire (another mod**) and finish it of with your 2nd-ary. Or just riding Merulina and spamming pull/ember-blast?

* one mod "pull enemies within 5 meters" another or base functionality "hover enemies within 8 meters for 3 seconds" /examples, numbers could be changed!/

** there are mods like your weapon mods (toxin, electricity, fire etc) you could probably join them but that's another topic I've made somewhere

Like pre-last-nerf Xaku where you could spam GoL. It was something fresh. With the nerf they made them bot. And they say they don't like this.... And why? Because they didn't want them to be like Loki.

Lavos is interesting frame. It shows that you can do without energy. I wouldn't want every frame to have cooldowns but having infusable abilities without energy cost (even better if they were spammable) would bring something good to Helminth system.

 

They are capable of doing interesting stuffs (I still play with Xaku... with negative duration) but last ~year hasn't been good for us. We got frames with many issues or "not interesting" features: Sevagoth & Yareli. Both are capable of kill or stuffs (e.g. Sev's Claws or Yareli's Aquablede*) but are just there like very basic stuffs (e.g. I don't see half of Claws' animation and other attacks are just like any other attack, compare unique stuffs of Barruuk).

* Aquablade could proc slash that could kill probably most enemies after few seconds. I don't remember details.

2 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

For me, this wouldn't be a problem if [DE] properly maintained their characters. They should have a team dedicated solely to maintaining every Warframe in the game. We are currently close to 50 Warframes! How on earth are they going to keep so many Warframes so that they even keep working properly? If each Warframe has varied mechanics in their different abilities! Many Warframes have many ways to play, not just one for each and this compounds the problem.

Reworking or just changing frames is nice stuffs but it's not priority.

Could they at least fix issues with frames. Even more if that affects more frames (or stuffs) like sprint bug? Come on! Why certain abilities (and other things) turn off your sprint? Why it hasn't been fixed? It's basic of basics (like another bugs with melee where forward & standing combos are swapped or not good fit).

1 hour ago, blazinvire said:

It also amusing works well as a drug metaphor; DE is our only dealer of this particular style of game, so even if they dole out complete garbage people will still buy it because something's better than nothing, they don't have any true competition so they get to call ALL the shots.

It might be not the only but there are not many games with melee & powers that may run on slower machines. I've tried gunz but that's not updated anymore and it's basic.

I've tried one game that looked worse than WF. I've made it in window mode and with graphics that looked like dos or old Windows games. It was still very slow.

[ShortCat]

19 minutes ago, trst said:

We'll keep getting more so long as DE is relying on Prime Access for revenue or they come up with something as/more sustainable to replace it.

Also the real problem with frame updates is the constant push for more power creep. All frames are fine until you start to compare them to the "best" frame for a specific task. Once you do that it won't matter how many frames we have or how updated they are as we'll boil that list down to five or so frames. Plus nothing in the game is challenging enough to warrant requiring the "best" of anything thus even an outdated frame is still fully functional for all content.

This part is on point.

19 minutes ago, trst said:

And with reworks in general the issue DE last pointed out with them is that they don't affect a frame's play rate much at all. Making all frame updates more of a monetarily loss than anything.

While here you recite corporate PR bullsh*t. Reworks don't affect play rate much? Saryn, Nezha & Wukong want to have a word with you, It all depends on how much effort went itno a rework; as simple as that.

1 hour ago, T-Shark69 said:

Yeah but new frames bring more revenue

Now to the money part, which is also surprisingly narrow minded and simply wrong on multiple levels:

• Reworking a frame is easier than designing a new one, since it already exists with most releveant assets and infrastructure in place.
• Reworks are necessary maintenance and reflects developers' longterm view on their game. Generally speaking it just looks better for everyone if the entire game is up to date.
• Majority of the players are somewhere around MR15, which means they didn't even experience a huge chunk of existing content. For new players, which DE still wants to attrackt, there is absolutely no difference between a reworked frame and a new one. In conclusion, a rework would still mean entirely fresh content for majority of players.
• New frames have to compete with already existing ones. Then there is also a danger that they might make existing content obsolete. This imposes hard design boundaries and makes new additions increasingly more complex and challanging; up to the point where you run into a complexity trap. The other option is to abandon old content, which is its own can of worms.
• More revenue is done with skins, because you cannot farm them, and especially with PA than with frame sales on the market. There is only so many Mesa skins you will be able to sell, while bigger popular frame pool will also attrackt bigger audience. PA for popular frames also sell better than for unpopular ones: Harrow will be the next one and the frame itself is rather unpopular, thus revenue from his PA will be lower. Now imageine Grendel PA today.

[ZeroX4]

9 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Now to the money part, which is also surprisingly narrow minded and simply wrong on multiple levels:

• Reworking a frame is easier than designing a new one, since it already exists with most releveant assets and infrastructure in place.
• Reworks are necessary maintenance and reflects developers' longterm view on their game. Generally speaking it just looks better for everyone if the entire game is up to date.
• Majority of the players are somewhere around MR15, which means they didn't even experience a huge chunk of existing content. For new players, which DE still wants to attrackt, there is absolutely no difference between a reworked frame and a new one. In conclusion, a rework would still mean entirely fresh content for majority of players.
• New frames have to compete with already existing ones. Then there is also a danger that they might make existing content obsolete. This imposes hard design boundaries and makes new additions increasingly more complex and challanging; up to the point where you run into a complexity trap. The other option is to abandon old content, which is its own can of worms.
• More revenue is done with skins, because you cannot farm them, and especially with PA than with frame sales on the market. There is only so many Mesa skins you will be able to sell, while bigger popular frame pool will also attrackt bigger audience. PA for popular frames also sell better than for unpopular ones: Harrow will be the next one and the frame itself is rather unpopular, thus revenue from his PA will be lower. Now imageine Grendel PA today.

I wont say you are wrong i just wont say you are 100% right
People like you lack the imagination why we have free wi-fi in some fast foods

Do you think someone is rich enough to waste their money so you can have free internet at their place?
Or maybe its so you feel like there is more to it than just coming there and eat? Like idk hang out longer than just coming there taking food and getting the F out?
Nah they want you to stay as long as you can cause maybe you will buy more of their products
Also they wish you choose them over a place which dont have free wi-fi

But lets make it even more simple
Lets say you invited me to your house like just for fun to show me how you live and you show me your big like bilbord TV
Its cool and all but you didnt program any channels yet

Week has passed and you say to me "hey come visit me again" and here we have 2 options

A - "i programmed all channels in my TV"
B - "i bought new even bigger TV"

Guess which A or B would make me more willing to come and visit you?
And thats how new warframes vs reworking old works

Yeah i would wish for more reworking than creating new ones
But if its so bad business model do you think by any chance DE would continue to go this route?

Do you think someone will be more willing to do same content over and over if old warframe is reworked or when they get new means to do that content?

New warframes are not selling point here they are free wi-fi to suck us in

4 hours ago, AJAL8000 said:

For me, this wouldn't be a problem if [DE] properly maintained their characters. They should have a team dedicated solely to maintaining every Warframe in the game. We are currently close to 50 Warframes! How on earth are they going to keep so many Warframes so that they even keep working properly? If each Warframe has varied mechanics in their different abilities! Many Warframes have many ways to play, not just one for each and this compounds the problem.

In my personal opinion, 50 Warframes is enough, hence, they should only dedicate themselves to improving and keeping their 50 playable characters updated and fixed. Improving their skills so that everyone has a decent balance and becomes more playable and consistent with their abilities.

Its cool we established its "for you" and its in "your personal opinion"

Problem is many of us just want something new
I dont use like 2/3 of warframes we have and many ppl also so what would be better overall
Reworking stuff ppl dont use or give them new stuff?

Well yeah im all in with you i actually would want to make them more useful and polished but in the end im not waiting for rework of X warframe im waiting now for next update to be able to experience content in a different way

And how you could have problem with 40 warframes yet you dont mention tons of weapons we have?
Maybe they should stop adding new weapons since we have so many and start adjusting them?

Like lets look at it this way
Would you prefer graphical rework we get for PoE or Deimos to be implemented?

I hope it will help to spot why new stuff makes us more excited than reworking old stuff

[T-Shark69]

45 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

 

Now to the money part, which is also surprisingly narrow minded and simply wrong on multiple levels:

Prime Acess with real money > Skin for traded plat which was bought with a discount. New always trumps old when it comes to marketing and revenue generation. Rant all you want, its just how it is. 

[Atsia]

1 hour ago, ShortCat said:

Saryn, Nezha & Wukong want to have a word with you,

Nezha is actually the example Pablo gives. And I can see what  he means, Nezha was made into a very good frame, but his actually play rate has not increased at all, which is not a good look.

[bad4youLT]

That's like asking "Do we need more loot in loot driven live service game"

The answer is YES 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

personally I would prefer reworks to happen more often, but reworks mean dev time with no profit, which is basically a loss. new frames attract players and bring in revenue, so they're always going to take priority over existing content. reworks only happen now when there's a VERY large and loud amount of clout behind them or if something is genuinely, fundamentally wrong with a frame's kit that isn't working as intended.

[ant99999]

No, we do not need more warframes. The more of them we get the more the game looks like a mixture between a children's theme park and a poorly organized circus with sad clowns.

In terms of balance from my experience with other character-based games - anything more than 10, and it becomes nearly impossible to balance (assumimg of course the devs actually try to balance anything... *cough*...)

However it is way too late to try to change anything at that point. The playerbase is established, as is the microtransactions strategy. The game won't survive lack of new warframes. So...

There's kind of no answer.

[Mr.NoodleHair]

I think DE can make just as much money, if not more, if they focused on cosmetics and new skins. FashionFrame is a thing. They're probably a lot easier to make than a whole new Frame, and people will generally buy skins for their favourite frames. There's also Tennogen!

Going over 50 Frames I think is a bit overkill. At that point, there'll more than enough Frames for every type of content in the game. I honestly think DE should shift their focus on balancing, creating skins, and pushing out new content to challenge the existing frames at that point.

[sunderthefirmament]

2 hours ago, Atsia said:

Nezha is actually the example Pablo gives. And I can see what  he means, Nezha was made into a very good frame, but his actually play rate has not increased at all, which is not a good look.

I really question DE's data on this.  I see Nezha Prime pretty frequently.  And even if Nezha/Nezha Prime aren't the most popular, good god look at Wukong.  He's everywhere now.  And I don't think this is a bad thing, as he doesn't really get in the way and I never need to revive a Wukong.

 

To get back to the main topic, I'm fine with new frames coming out so long as we don't get another Yareli fiasco.