Why I do not want Wukong nerfed

[SneakyErvin]

The only nerf needed is to have the klone health reduced to be equal to Wukong's. Right now you have a free Inaros pet running alongside you stacking enemies into the express elevator to Valhall. There is no reason to allow it to have several thousands of HP when Wukong himself survives well with a far lower health pool. Maybe, just maybe reducing the HP would result in having to resummoning it from time to time.

[Marvelous_A]

Then give me back old WoF of Ember and the old Bladestorm Ash. The first kills slower than Celestial Twin and the second requires more input.

[Teridax68]

I think Wukong's overwhelming popularity in the stats is one of those cases where there's more an issue of design, rather than balance: in terms of power I agree, Wukong's not amazing. He's not by any means the world's best damage-dealer, his crowd control's meh, and there are many frames more durable than him. The reason he's picked so often, in my opinion, is convenience: in most missions you don't really need to watch your health too closely, because if you do take fatal damage, you get three extra revives. You don't have to spend as much effort killing enemies, because your clone can fire away with an AoE weapon. You don't even have to parkour, because you can just press 2 and fly around at-will, and your cloud form bypassing lasers means even the toughest Spy vault becomes a walk in the park.

Because of this, I don't think nerfing Wukong would really change things, because the parts of him that make him desirable come from how he's designed, rather than how he's tuned. Personally, from this I'd instead like two major lines of design changes:

• Wukong I think does need some changes in design so that he doesn't bypass most bits of gameplay like he does now. Whatever is taken away from him, however, needs to be given back in the form of buffs to the things about him that are interactive (his 3 and 4 in particular could use buffs whether or not the rest of him changes). Stuff in particular I'd like to see:
  • Change Wukong's passive so that it only provides 1 revive, but recharges over the course of a mission, whether it be through kills, Affinity gains (ignoring boosters), or something else. This should be a net improvement to any Wukong who'd actively participate in gameplay, and could perhaps feel like a slight return more towards his old perma-immortality in healthier form.
  • Change Wukong's clone so that it requires and rewards participation in some form: for example, give it a damage multiplier that lets it deal even more damage than now, but continually and rapidly reduces down to a number below 1 (so the clone would deal less damage than now) and resets back to the maximum amount whenever Wukong himself damages an enemy. This would be a net buff for any player who actively participates with or without the clone, and would only nerf AFK playstyles.
  • Move Cloud Walker's healing to his 3, slightly reduce its speed so it's on par with parkour, and remove its ability to bypass lasers. In general, no ability should bypass lasers, and this applies to other warframes too.
  • Change Defy so that is also heals Wukong based on damage stored, multiply the stored damage dealt, and let Wukong move and attack freely while it's on. Instead, give it some sort of stacking cost multiplier for a short duration after use so that it's difficult to spam.
  • Buff the Iron Staff's stats across the board, reduce its Energy drain, and allow its range to increase with the combo counter once more.
• The rest of the game's warframes in general I think could use a "convenience pass" to eliminate as much about them that makes them inconvenient to use: this could include long casting times and the animation locks those incur, excessively short durations on some effects (e.g. Trinity's 3 and 4), ramping Energy costs on mechanics like Ember's 2 and Grendel's 1, and so on.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

I was expecting this thread to mention Wukong's power being tied to the overwhelming power of AoE weapons. The clone is pretty good, but it's nothing crazy if you give it a single target weapon or have it use melee. The issue is when you give that thing a Kuva Zarr that uses mods and can be fired infinitely due to unlimited ammo and bypassing one-at-time reload mechanics.

I agree that Wukong himself doesn't need a nerf, although maybe nerfing Cloud Walker's spy capabilities is justified, as this "generalist" has a tendency to overshadow stealth frames like Ivara and Loki.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

The issue seems to be more about AOE than his clone

[DealerOfAbsolutes]

1 hour ago, Teridax68 said:

I think Wukong's overwhelming popularity in the stats is one of those cases where there's more an issue of design, rather than balance: in terms of power I agree, Wukong's not amazing. He's not by any means the world's best damage-dealer, his crowd control's meh, and there are many frames more durable than him. The reason he's picked so often, in my opinion, is convenience: in most missions you don't really need to watch your health too closely, because if you do take fatal damage, you get three extra revives. You don't have to spend as much effort killing enemies, because your clone can fire away with an AoE weapon. You don't even have to parkour, because you can just press 2 and fly around at-will, and your cloud form bypassing lasers means even the toughest Spy vault becomes a walk in the park.

3 extra Revives is basically immortality in missions that last less than 3 minutes, which is all of them that don't have arbitrary count down timers. Other frames get booted off hacking consoles when they die, but not Wukong who doesn't care.

In most content, player damage is already overkill, so damage buffers aren't important. Enemies die too quickly for CC to matter. Honestly, most enemies don't matter if anyone knows how to bullet jump away.

[TARINunit9]

My clanmate is a Wukong main for two reasons, one of which highlights Wukong's high usage

1. It was his first Prime, can't blame him for that

2. Wukong is a super forgiving frame. He actually promotes a lot of bad habits with his easy healing and free extra lives. My clanmate will just facetank damage, not bothering to play properly and not charge into a pack of Napalms until after all his free lives are gone and he goes down for real the first time. And Wukong makes for really lazy Spy missions, great for speedruns, this I don't hate but it does cement Monkey King as the lazy newbie frame

[ReddyDisco]

3 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Even though AFKing as Wukong in higher levels will get you killed. The twin has its limits.

Subsume eclipse on wukong and the twin gets the  damage buff, you can where this is going when the twin has access to a certain ship cannon which fire nukes

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Jacobivan said:

Nah. People hate him (i know i do) when equipped with Bubonico/Bramma/Zarr/napalm Ogris etc. Clone fills the map with huge explosions (usually VERY bright colours) making me unable to see anything at all and quickly triggering headache. I never stay more than one rotation with that kind of Wuclone. 

How's that any different from ANY Warframe using Bubonico/Bramma/Zarr/etc?

Pretty much anytime I see someone with one of those weapons they're spam nuking the map, regardless of what warframe they're using. (tho Mirage is probably most popular for doing this)

That's a problem with the Weapons, not any specific warframe.

 

[Zeclem]

wukong is probably one of the strongest, if not the strongest solo frame out there today. but honestly the real fact is he is used as much as he is used not because of its own power, but because of how bullS#&$ aoe weapons are. give him single target weapons and his clone will actually do just fine anyway, but give it something like a kuva zarr and you have a guy that spams little nukes that still somehow manage to be good in steel path.

and as long as de does not figure out a way to put single target weapons on the level of aoe, wukong will always be dominant.

[(PSN)Jacobivan]

40 minutes ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

How's that any different from ANY Warframe using Bubonico/Bramma/Zarr/etc?

Pretty much anytime I see someone with one of those weapons they're spam nuking the map, regardless of what warframe they're using. (tho Mirage is probably most popular for doing this)

That's a problem with the Weapons, not any specific warframe.

 

Most people don't shoot at my back if i'm between them and enemies. Like i' m in a middle of a corridor decimating enemies with my Exergis or rapid fire LMG/ melee. People will usually find their own group to nuke. Wuclone won't. He shoots at enemies till they die, and if my back explodes all its shots, enemies won't die. So it shoots some more... Covering my screen with bright flashes of light. Making it impossible to see anything, including my group of enemies. So i don't kill them and Wuclone shoots some more. And it doesn't run out of ammo, despite spam. Ever. 

In spite of my wall of text, i don't think Wukong deserves a nerf (he deserves 4 buff IMHO) , and i agree problem is with AoE. Just clone AI compounds that problem. I would love if AI got a rule not to shoot near other Tenno. That would solve my Wuclone issue. Or make all weapons only do AoE on alt fire;-) Half kidding. I've no issue with limited AoE weapons, just constant spam. 

[AzureScion]

Worst thing is Wuclone is an AI so the idiot recognizes you as enemy if either you or the Wukong player is affected by radiation so the monkey brain will decimate you with their supercharged Kuva Zarr at full force, usually killing you in an instant because that thing deals like 40k per hit (?)

Oh nevermind, worse yet, the Wukong player usually doesn't care that you die (because he most likely isn't playing the game anyway) and won't even bother to revive you, spending revive (and affinity).

[ReddyDisco]

3 hours ago, Zeclem said:

wukong is probably one of the strongest, if not the strongest solo frame out there today. but honestly the real fact is he is used as much as he is used not because of its own power, but because of how bullS#&$ aoe weapons are. give him single target weapons and his clone will actually do just fine anyway, but give it something like a kuva zarr and you have a guy that spams little nukes that still somehow manage to be good in steel path.

and as long as de does not figure out a way to put single target weapons on the level of aoe, wukong will always be dominant.

Make it so wuclone can't use aoe weapons?

i can hear the mob coming with pitchforks and 7 day old salad in the back of the fridge that you forgot to throw away 

duck and hide!

[Zeclem]

40 minutes ago, ReddyDisco said:

Make it so wuclone can't use aoe weapons?

i can hear the mob coming with pitchforks and 7 day old salad in the back of the fridge that you forgot to throw away 

duck and hide!

i'd be fine with just fixing the power discrepancy between aoe and single target weapons without making any of them useless personally.

[Tiltskillet]

26 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

i'd be fine with just fixing the power discrepancy between aoe and single target weapons without making any of them useless personally.

 

26 minutes ago, Zeclem said:

just

Yah, sounds good.  DE, get this ready in time for the next patch.  kkthx.

[(PSN)thowed]

Give his twin an ogris, zarr or any other aoe meta weapon and most of these arguments on why hes "weak" are not that good.  I get why they're being made though.  Never change WF forums lol.

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

21 minutes ago, (PSN)thowed said:

Give his twin an ogris, zarr or any other aoe meta weapon and most of these arguments on why hes "weak" are not that good.  I get why they're being made though.  Never change WF forums lol.

There are people arguing that Wukong is weak? Where?

[-Vahagn-]

1 hour ago, (PSN)thowed said:

Give his twin an ogris, zarr or any other aoe meta weapon and most of these arguments on why hes "weak" are not that good. 

Would you kindly read these "arguments" to me? As I do not recall stating he is weak. Unless you tell me a Zarr makes him more accurate to his theme and makes his 4th not useless.

 

I do not recall Sun Wukong using rocket launchers in Journey to the West. So no, it does not fix an issue like that.

1 hour ago, (PSN)thowed said:

Never change WF forums lol.

Indeed

[RazerXPrime]

Now that someone brought up Wukong I have an idea I would have otherwise never throught of. How about we make the clone stop if the player stops moving for a few seconds. I think On Call crew already does this. Since Wukongs clone is in a similar league of power that might be a good adjustment. Or maybe this is already a thing?

Also, can't wait for 🧂

[(PSN)thowed]

5 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Would you kindly read these "arguments" to me? As I do not recall stating he is weak. Unless you tell me a Zarr makes him more accurate to his theme and makes his 4th not useless.

 

I do not recall Sun Wukong using rocket launchers in Journey to the West. So no, it does not fix an issue like that.

Indeed

5 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Would you kindly read these "arguments" to me? As I do not recall stating he is weak. Unless you tell me a Zarr makes him more accurate to his theme and makes his 4th not useless.

 

I do not recall Sun Wukong using rocket launchers in Journey to the West. So no, it does not fix an issue like that.

Indeed

I wasn't referring to you specifically, guess you thought that because its your topic.  I don't care about themes and weak stick powers either btw.  He needs to be nerfed because he has a clone with no time limit that has infinite ammo and literally blows up every enemy it sees, regardless if your 6 inches in front of it.  Enjoy the blinding explosion because I don't.  Fix this then we can entertain all that other stuff.  People literally ignore the twin while calling all the other powers weak because they dont wanna lose it.  If all his abilities were buffed and the twin was replaced with a decent power no one would use him.  Oberon is jack of all trades btw.

[(PSN)thowed]

6 hours ago, (XBOX)Regxxh said:

There are people arguing that Wukong is weak? Where?

On the first page talking about his viability in steel path, his powers besides the twin.  No one exactly says the word "weak" but I use context clues.  Making it sound like he shouldnt be touched because his powers aren't great.  I believe thats correct actually.  Everything needs buffed and the twin needs nerfed, gone or cant equip aoe weapons.  Id rather someone just straight afk then deal with that twin with a kuva ogris and napalm rounds.

[Tesseract7777]

Nobody suggested he was going to be...? 

This thread seems much ado about nothing. DE has not even hinted at nerfing Wukong. 

If you want him left alone, maybe don't purposefully draw attention to a debate about his OPness when nobody, player, or DE had said a thing about adjusting him. 

[0_The_F00l]

23 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Well that is it, remember this is just my opinion so feel free to yell at me and call me dummy.

It's perfectly ok to have an opinion. 

But there are a few things I disagree with that I will go through point by point.

23 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

To start Wukong's high usage in the stats is more so due to his usage as a jack of all trades Warframe. Rather than him being the most broken or OP Warframe in the game. 

There are better jack of all trades than wukong , wukong is popular because he is actually specialised. Specialised in not giving a S#&$ and supporting brain-dead semi AFK playstyles.

It is extremely convenient and effortless to use him to just rush through any mission quickly without dying while doing damage without even aiming or pressing any buttons after the clone is out.

Note that I said it Supports this playstyle , not all players that use wukong do so but I encounter active player a lot less than bramma /nukor blasting mute clone bots.

23 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Since outside of his clone he does not really do anything to standout, 

He stands out when using that clone and blasting everything with infinite ammo explosives and leaving flashing effects everywhere.

Not Standing out is the least of his concerns.

23 hours ago, WH1735S0W said:

Yet with Wukong I do not feel the same way, because he does not feel like the a Monkey King, he feels like a collection of stats and buffs. 

That's the problem , he is more like a stat stick than a frame , get him the right weapons on his clone and watch at things go poof. 

He needs to be changed so it does not feel that way.

Simple things like the clone getting only the current magazine and not able to reload when empty will go quite a way.

Changes can happen in multiple ways , nerfs are just part of the change.

And i don't know about you , but I think his abilities are actually on point with regards to the mythos. It's too bad they encourage such playstyles.

On 2022-02-04 at 10:42 AM, WH1735S0W said:

Though probably my biggest for not wanting Wukong nerfed is because it will only lead players to target some other Warframe they dislike instead of him. In my case, I feel it will be Zephyr, another jack of all trades Warframe. I strongly believe if Wukong is nerfed to the ground Zephyr will take his place. 

Highly unlikely cause you need to actively play with Zephyr.

And Zephyr is nowhere near the top in usage.

 

[-Vahagn-]

48 minutes ago, (PSN)thowed said:

I wasn't referring to you specifically, guess you thought that because its your topic.

That is true, sorry about that then.

[Wboson]

Nobody cares, Wukong sucks.

Boring frane. Nobody plays him, only noobs..

Nerf who cares, less noobs.