The impact AoE nerf could have

[XzWasPzX]

hace 2 minutos, LeoniePiggy dijo:

I fell asleep in a barely lit infested defense sortie at some point... no thank you >.<

Thats the idea, do not let you fall asleep... and I also think its DE's idea with the new eximus units, so the environment rework would be a a nice addition to the actual eximus rework xD

[quxier]

8 minutes ago, XzWasPzX said:

I was thinking how engaging would be for example to have darker environments with infested, to make them more terryfying. Simply to play a lil with environment lights. And somehow every faction could have a more adequate lights environment. The  uniformity "anti-terror" or "anti-fun" gets boring fast.

I think they have done it with infested ship tileset. Not light, but eerie music/sound. At first it was nice but then it gets "meh".

[PollexMessier]

1 hour ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

I only see dark souls being mentioned only by people that think the game is difficult or say that others want the game to be like dark souls, people that want the game to not be a snoozefest don't want it to be dark souls just engaging

I've seen it quite a few times from players that want the game to be harder. Though I'll be honest as soon as I see "elden ring" the rest of what they're trying to say might as well be white noise to me.

More engaging is good. I'm in the camp that replacing self damage with knockback instead of fixing what was wrong with it was just about the worst decision DE's ever made and possibly will ever make. But I don't feel like enemies that just invalidate an entire category of abilities and outdated but fun weapons is a good step in the "engagement" direction. Something I don't see a whole hell of a lot of are players that understand the difference between engagement and difficulty.

[Voltage]

All DE needs to do is make Steel Path a proper global toggle among other things like manipulating squad size to increase spawns, etc. Step 2 is then to reward that toggle to be just as time efficient if not moreso than playing normal gameplay. Don't shoehorn players into level 50 bounties or level 20 fissures as the most efficient use of time for farming said mode.

[AntifreezeUnder0]

3 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Most of my loadouts have warframes and weapons with MULTIPLE Formas each on TOP of god tier Rivens on all my favorite weapons. I could still kill Eximus units but I am NOT a fan of this trend making the game more and more challenging. Never will be because all I want to do is to enjoy the game with the best loadouts I can build when I take a break from my work and life. 

How many percentage of the players are really that hardcore and want Warframe play like Elden Ring? 

Can DE simply just add a toggle button to accommodate players who really want that super hard mode at all time? Most players DO NOT APPRECIATE DIFFICULT CONTENDTS. Just look at SP missions!! Where ever SP mission I go randomly, there is ZERO player joining the same mission except daily SP missions. 

There is no special reason to do SP if you dont need anything from the teshin shop and or havent completed the start chart yet on sp difficulty.

Rewards barely better than in normal star chart. Redeeming factor on SP is the enemy density , which are fun to kill. Drops are barely better than normal chart.

Probably closest example to ''challenge'' what people ask isnt bulletsponge enemies, but rather work input=loot output. Like in eidolons, doing the tridolons to get arcanes, and certain arcanes beeing great way to make plat, as they are harder to get.

And the new cascade mission on zariman, where its fast and fun.

I just want gamemode, missions where after i completed everything up to date i could make every type of weapons be more or less equal options in their category. Not just 90% of items beeing mastery point fodders. While others are nearly like a must to have in order to feel you have improved, untill some updates hit.

 

Then again i use stug and still can kill enemies be it in normal or steel path star chart.And thats ''challenge''' i choose to commit to.

 

[DreisterDino]

vor einer Stunde schrieb kinoko_takenoko:

But if you just want to make it really challenging, there is already a way to "voluntarily remove mods", right?

Fun Fact: OP was a very vocal voice of that idea, but apparently has finally reevaluated that opinion.

 

 

So, the change of mind is appreciated, and i am glad there is probably finally some sort of agreement that its the job of the developers of any game to balance the game and that you can not simply pass that tasks over to the players. And like others mentioned already, in theory, we have this toggle option in the game already with the Steel Path. And, also in theory, we have other gamemodes like Arbitrations which were supposed to bring that level of challenge to the game.

 

But why is this not enough? Why do people suggest a toggle option although we have a toggle option?

 

vor einer Stunde schrieb kinoko_takenoko:

What was needed was a Steel Path with no special rewards. Without the special rewards, the Steel Path could be as difficult as anyone wanted it to be, but with so many special rewards, it could no longer be made challenging for those who wanted it to be.

This comment illustrates it pretty well.

 

Whenever DE releases something that at some point was supposed to cater towards the people who want more challenging gameplay, the people who dont want it ask for Nerfs and changes to make it more easy again. In the end, everything needs to be for everyone again and is not allowed to be "too" challenging. And then there is this (miss-)conception that even stuff like Arbitrations needs to be doable and accessable for new players. Just look at recent discussions regarding Arbitrations being locked behind Zariman (because of the starchart-completion mechanic) - people make statements like "this shouldnt be the case, new players rely on Arbitrations as an Endo-Farm and need it to progress" - compare this to the announcement texts of Arbitrations and the original goal of it. It was never supposed to be that way - still it has become like that.

 

So challenging content is only allowed to exist if it offers absolutely zero "special" rewards, hell even a better reward ratio is forbidden because somehow that would make it mandatory to play. I mean, Steel Path: What are "so many special rewards"? The only special thing are Weapon Arcanes, and you dont need them at all if you dont want to do Steel Path.

 

TLDR:

• I am glad that more people start to see that the Devs have to provide proper balancing and challenge somewhere in the game.
• the next step is to also accept that such a gamemode will offer either unique rewards or better rewards ratios aswell (and i dont see that yet^^)

[schilds]

Quote

OPTION to CHOOSE Either EXTREMELY HARD for complaining players

You want to make the people complaining about the difficulty of eximus post-rework play an extremely hard mode? How cruel.

[(PSN)Lollybomb]

Define "extremely hard."  Because as it stands we always have people going "I need a challenge.  I can one shot everything at level 9999.  When is DE going to give us a proper challenge?"

[----Legacy----]

2 hours ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

What was needed was a Steel Path with no special rewards.
Without the special rewards, the Steel Path could be as difficult as anyone wanted it to be, but with so many special rewards, it could no longer be made challenging for those who wanted it to be.

What we need is players to stop being so self entitled to whatever reward is added to the game and start to improve themselves when any challenging content with unique rewards is added, not less rewards.

2 hours ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

But if you just want to make it really challenging, there is already a way to "voluntarily remove mods", right?

No, i haven't been playing and getting more powerful during 9 years only for some internet random to say "jUsT rEmOvE yOuR mOdS" due to inability to keep their crippling atychiphobia in check.

[fo3nixz]

yikes dont nerf SP enemies. sp is 1000% solo able on any mission.  if u need lower difficulty, on the side, select normal starchart and done.

if u want the arcanes from the aco's and SE , ah well u have to suck it up

 

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb PollexMessier:

I think the point they're making with that is the try hards challenge seekers have been CONSTANTLY bringing up elden ring in these forums since it came out when discussing challenge with this game, and it's infuriating.

That's funny, because I haven't seen that once. People who want the game to be easy bring up Dark Souls all the time (see for example: this thread), but I have never - not once - seen anyone actually ask for Warframe to be on par with Dark Souls or Elden Ring. This is a strawman argument, nothing more.

[cute_moth.npc]

The complaining players seem to be a group of like 5-6 people who are posting threads constantly like "Just remove your mods" and complaining about "elitist tryhards" though, I am not sure how an extremely hard mode option would appeal to them?

[0_The_F00l]

Sigh , this might sound like a simple solution but it's not, it's a lot more complex than that.

You have also assumed that there are only two types of players , those that want to crush ants and those that want to be ants.

This assumption is wrong as there are different types of players with different preferences .

DE already attempted to make "challenging " mode toggle via steel path , it's not quite successful in that regard though it is something.

The difficulty and challenge in the game is very difficult to gauge , it depends on things which are very fluid and interdependent.

One warframe is not equal to another in powerlevel , even with the same mod loadout.

And the same warframe can also have very different powerlevels depending on the mods applied.

Some warframes let the game play for you and some are a lot more skill dependent. 

And then the actual weapons just complicates this further.

This translates into some very weird outcomes irrespective of the enemy level.

 

So please explain to me , when we get this magic toggle what exactly will change , how exactly will it make the game more "difficult" , than what already exists?

[George_PPS]

On 2022-05-29 at 10:26 AM, mrhapps said:

elden ring is not difficult

Just to make it clear, I have not played ER; it's just an impression from what I have seen. 

 

14 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sigh , this might sound like a simple solution but it's not, it's a lot more complex than that.

You have also assumed that there are only two types of players , those that want to crush ants and those that want to be ants.

This assumption is wrong as there are different types of players with different preferences .

DE already attempted to make "challenging " mode toggle via steel path , it's not quite successful in that regard though it is something.

The difficulty and challenge in the game is very difficult to gauge , it depends on things which are very fluid and interdependent.

One warframe is not equal to another in powerlevel , even with the same mod loadout.

And the same warframe can also have very different powerlevels depending on the mods applied.

Some warframes let the game play for you and some are a lot more skill dependent. 

And then the actual weapons just complicates this further.

This translates into some very weird outcomes irrespective of the enemy level.

 

So please explain to me , when we get this magic toggle what exactly will change , how exactly will it make the game more "difficult" , than what already exists?

In many situations, it is really that simple. Don't overthink....

 

On 2022-05-29 at 3:14 PM, cute_moth.npc said:

The complaining players seem to be a group of like 5-6 people who are posting threads constantly like "Just remove your mods" and complaining about "elitist tryhards" though, I am not sure how an extremely hard mode option would appeal to them?

These players might never ever be satisfied until the player base is destroyed after the game difficulty is increased so much that no new players like it. 

 

On 2022-05-29 at 11:30 AM, PollexMessier said:

This is pretty much what steel path is. I wouldn't have even been that mad if DE put overguard in steel path only for the tryhards. And expand steel path to... actually be an option for everything which is something I would genuinely appreciate.

The problem is nothing the devs can do with this game will satisfy challenge seeking players. Without alienating the rest of their playerbase in the process. They'll always complain it's too easy. There's no such thing as "hard enough" for them. Which is why DE really needs to just stop trying with them. Cus it never makes them happy and it always pisses off everyone else.

SP is not difficult enough for these players!

 

On 2022-05-29 at 12:07 PM, Yamazuki said:

Due to the nature of games having to be completed, they're always going to be a horrible source for a "challenge" once you've played enough of them. I remember when games felt difficult across multiple different genres ages ago... Now? Yeah, that isn't the case. When you do a task often enough, it becomes extremely easy to do

All that really maters is whether the gameplay and repetition is enjoyable. This focus on "difficulty" is an impossible thing to satisfy even if the game were "balanced". People like to live in their delusions claiming the game will be "difficult" if our damage is nerfed to the ground. 

People also like throwing the word "engaging" around as if it means anything. Taking 30-60 seconds to take a single enemy down doesn't make it more engaging than taking it down in 1 second. Eidolons are some of the least "engaging" enemies in the game for me, and they aren't defeated upon spawn.

Agreeing with you 100%. I have played through enough "difficult" and "challenging" contents of Warframe before SP and all nerfs was even introduced to make Warframe something not original as is. I do not want to waste time to become a newbie again with my god tier loadouts. I just want to enjoy the game as it was. 

 

On 2022-05-29 at 12:28 PM, kinoko_takenoko said:

What was needed was a Steel Path with no special rewards.
Without the special rewards, the Steel Path could be as difficult as anyone wanted it to be, but with so many special rewards, it could no longer be made challenging for those who wanted it to be.

But if you just want to make it really challenging, there is already a way to "voluntarily remove mods", right?

These players say that's not the way to make it challenging. They can't be satisfied imo. 

[(XBOX)Ampathetiic]

19 hours ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

What was needed was a Steel Path with no special rewards.
Without the special rewards, the Steel Path could be as difficult as anyone wanted it to be, but with so many special rewards, it could no longer be made challenging for those who wanted it to be.

But if you just want to make it really challenging, there is already a way to "voluntarily remove mods", right?

The satisfying thing about a challenge is that it's presented to you, not by you. The people who are asking for a challenge don't want to pretend that the game is challenging; they want the game to actually be challenging, and they want to be rewarded for accepting that challenge and overcoming it. 

[Mag_Gaming]

22 hours ago, George_PPS said:

but I am NOT a fan of this trend making the game more and more challenging.

Do you play Warframe? More and more challenging?...

Every update gets met with nerfs?

Hello?

 

19 hours ago, kinoko_takenoko said:

But if you just want to make it really challenging, there is already a way to "voluntarily remove mods", right?

How about no?

How about I don´t have to cripple myself by removing the items that I have farmed for years and all the stuff that I´ve acquired? What is the point in farming said stuff then apart from collecting it for the sole purpose of it being there?

The " just remove your mods lol xd" argument is so old and cringe already.

 

19 hours ago, Voltage said:

All DE needs to do is make Steel Path a proper global toggle among other things like manipulating squad size to increase spawns, etc. Step 2 is then to reward that toggle to be just as time efficient if not moreso than playing normal gameplay. Don't shoehorn players into level 50 bounties or level 20 fissures as the most efficient use of time for farming said mode.

I´ve been saying this for a while.

A global toggle so SP doesn´t only apply to missions but sorties , fissures , all bounties , effectively all content where it can make sense.

DE´s problem is that they´re just so scared to make things "exclusive" while every MMO RPG (looking at Destiny 2 mostly since I have a solid 1.3k hours in that) rewards players for doing harder raids and missions with better vairants of weapons , better armor/gear, etc.

DE needs to stop thinking that everybody should be able to access all content. Yes they can but not instantly and not with un-optimized gear.

 

Hell at this point I would just switch everything to SP for the sake of fun because I almost fell asleep yesterday doing a lith fissure defense for 1 part I needed.

[----Legacy----]

42 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

SP is not difficult enough for these players!

SP was fun and beatable on release. If players who couldn't beat it back then and were self entitled to its rewards had not complained, DE wouldn't have added weapon arcanes and galvanized mods, both being buffs big enough to bring those of us who were already able to complete SP back to the point of having no challenge in the game, adding a new circle to the issue of powercreep in warframe.

With that in mind, it's really hipocrite to say:

43 minutes ago, George_PPS said:

These players might never ever be satisfied until the player base is destroyed after the game difficulty is increased so much that no new players like it. 

When it's people like you who seem to never be satisfied until the playerbase is destroyed after the game difficulty is decreased so much that the game becomes boring for both, new and old players alike.

[schilds]

There are people who can't be satisfied on all sides of these arguments.

There are people who play the game for fun, and then there are people who only play when there is some reward (other than "fun") in it¹. The latter can be either:

• People who want easy access to rewards, or
• People who want their perceived "hard work" to result in "real" rewards - typically that means powerful and exclusive.

Both get frustrated when they're not getting rewarded.

 

1. And then there are people who get all the 'rewards' out of the way so they can just play for fun :-P.

[mrhapps]

3 hours ago, George_PPS said:

Just to make it clear, I have not played ER; it's just an impression from what I have seen. 

its the same as all of the Fromsoftware games, overrated difficulty from casuals. Pretty similar difficulty to warframe tbh, you make the right build u steamroll the game. The only difference is that u can get one shot in souls games where in warframe you gotta lose shield gating first for that to happen besides toxin. Hardcore path of exile is where you get to a difficult game xD you die once, game over - in a game were u usually play a glass canon character to kill as fast as possible

[Lutesque]

22 hours ago, Voltage said:

All DE needs to do is make Steel Path a proper global toggle among other things like manipulating squad size to increase spawns, etc. Step 2 is then to reward that toggle to be just as time efficient if not moreso than playing normal gameplay. Don't shoehorn players into level 50 bounties or level 20 fissures as the most efficient use of time for farming said mode.

And there lies The Problem....

As long as you want better Rewards for Doing "Harder" Content... This Cycle will Never End.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

21 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

Whenever DE releases something that at some point was supposed to cater towards the people who want more challenging gameplay, the people who dont want it ask for Nerfs and changes to make it more easy again. In the end, everything needs to be for everyone again and is not allowed to be "too" challenging. And then there is this (miss-)conception that even stuff like Arbitrations needs to be doable and accessable for new players. Just look at recent discussions regarding Arbitrations being locked behind Zariman (because of the starchart-completion mechanic) - people make statements like "this shouldnt be the case, new players rely on Arbitrations as an Endo-Farm and need it to progress" - compare this to the announcement texts of Arbitrations and the original goal of it. It was never supposed to be that way - still it has become like that.

I've been saying it for 2 Years Now....

Warframe's Progression System is Backwards...

This is My 4th Time starting the Game Over and once Again there is Legit not one single Proper Endo Farm all the Way from Earth to Pluto ... 

Currently on Uranus now and haven't even unlocked Tier 5 Bounties Yet which is where usable amounts of Endo actually begin to drop...

Mean While in Late Game Content players are Complaining about the Exact same Endo Rewards.... You know.... Because at that stage of the Game that much Endo is no longer Needed....

Sigh.... 

I don't even Wana think about it anymore....

 

21 hours ago, (PSN)Lollybomb said:

Define "extremely hard."  Because as it stands we always have people going "I need a challenge.  I can one shot everything at level 9999.  When is DE going to give us a proper challenge?"

As far as I can Tell.... Simply Have them Play on Steel Path and Forcibly Remove Their Mods....

Also Make all The Enemies Eximus Units....

That Should Be A Decent Start....

If they Still Whine and Complain just Make all the Enemies Invincible....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

21 hours ago, ----Legacy---- said:

What we need is players to stop being so self entitled to whatever reward is added to the game and start to improve themselves when any challenging content with unique rewards is added, not less rewards.

You know.... You're probably right....

Unfortunately That will Never Happened..... 

Why ? 

Because what's in it for DE ? It's not like Try Hards are paying More Money when things get Harder.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

21 hours ago, fo3nixz said:

yikes dont nerf SP enemies. sp is 1000% solo able on any mission.  if u need lower difficulty, on the side, select normal starchart and done.

if u want the arcanes from the aco's and SE , ah well u have to suck it up

 

Actually we don't have to Suck It Up....

If we complain hard enough those Modes do get Changed.... 

And if YOU don't like that then YOU are the one that has to Suck It Up.... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

3 hours ago, Mag_Gaming said:

Hell at this point I would just switch everything to SP for the sake of fun because I almost fell asleep yesterday doing a lith fissure defense for 1 part I needed.

Why didn't you just Wait for the Mission to Change into Capture or Exterminate ?

It wouldn't Be Harder but you would atleast be constantly moving Forward.... You are less likely to Fall Asleep when you make Forward Progress....

1 hour ago, schilds said:

 

1. And then there are people who get all the 'rewards' out of the way so they can just play for fun :-P.

That's Me.... That's me right Down to The Core....

That's why I love Content Droughts and Hate new Updates....

 

[Jarriaga]

On 2022-05-29 at 7:25 AM, Xaero said:

And what if... it's actually DE's vision and not because of complaining players?!!! :OOOOO

It's not like they flat-out said the game being too easy becomes boring sooner or later during last devstream....

It must surely be those who want for WF to become Dark Souls/Sekiro/Elden Ring......

[Kontrollo]

On 2022-05-29 at 12:30 PM, PollexMessier said:

...

The problem is nothing the devs can do with this game will satisfy challenge seeking players. Without alienating the rest of their playerbase in the process. They'll always complain it's too easy. There's no such thing as "hard enough" for them. ...

Speak for yourself, thanks.

This game had a good amount of difficulty before all the power creep, by the way. And it was still entirely possible to cheese your way through it if you were so inclined.

 

As for the thread in general: Is this just a rehash of your previous one?

Spoiler

 

 

Because as with the other one, it does not sound like this is meant to be a discussion. More of a meta-complaint.

[0_The_F00l]

7 hours ago, George_PPS said:

In many situations, it is really that simple. Don't overthink....

I am still waiting for you to actually tell me what this simple solution looks like.

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I am still waiting for you to actually tell me what this simple solution looks like.

STEP 1: NERF THE PLAYERS!

STEP 2: 

[0_The_F00l]

1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

STEP 1: NERF THE PLAYERS!

STEP 2: 

Uhuh , guess we will wait till Christmas vacation again.