We need to start pushing Pablo harder about stat sticks (respectfully, of course)

[Voltage]

4 hours ago, (NSW)Royal_Elf_Mika said:

im worried that without stat sticks, the abilities will be awful.

Good, then they will finally be forced to properly address how they function. Hiding behind Riven Mods and Progenitor bonuses doesn't improve the situation, it's just kicking the ball further down the road.

[(NSW)Greybones]

21 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

If you’re playing a statstick frame like Khora or Atlas, choosing to bring a standard and effective melee weapon for actual melee means your statstick ability will do much less damage. They still tend to do enough for the normal star chart and even sorties, but the scaling just isn’t there without statstick support. 
 

 

Long as they’re good enough for the standard game, that’s fine. SP is whatever a bunch of haphazardly thrown-on modifiers is. I wouldn’t expect something like Atlas’ 1 to go killing Archons since it’s a low-cost 1, it just needs to be enough to supplement weapon damage when the weapon isn’t built for something way higher and hogging all the damage in the first place (so far it hasn’t been a problem for me)

Edited November 25, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

3 hours ago, (XBOX)C11H22O11 said:

There's a bit more than that

At least knowing that it might happen is better than nothing

Good, we still have time to enjoy the game before you guys further ruin it.

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

7 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

If you’re playing a statstick frame like Khora or Atlas, choosing to bring a standard and effective melee weapon for actual melee means your statstick ability will do much less damage. They still tend to do enough for the normal star chart and even sorties, but the scaling just isn’t there without statstick support. 
 

 

 

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

No offense meant on this reply, but this is actually a bad take, my friend.

Damage in Warframe is never about how much you deal, it's about how you deal it and what it takes to get there. Saryn's damage is in the right elemental type, the right status type, easy to scale, easy to spread, and backed up by other abilities and other multipliers that allow her to survive and deal more damage at the same time.

An ability like Landslide, which is a short-distance, incredibly small AoE, has to be cast again and again at the exclusion of every single other action you could be doing, and has no options for actually breaking through scaled-up armour is not the same.

To be clear, 170-200k does seem like a lot. You're not wrong.

The difference is that at level 120 with Steel Path buffs, a Heavy Gunner has an Effective Health Pool of 5,375,376. With this, your 200k hit will need to be cast 26 times.

Saryn's Corrosive will strip that armour down to only about 24% of its strength in a few ticks, often while you're not even looking, while dealing those same damage numbers, which can then be affected by Viral to instantly double them or even scale them up to 3.5x damage.

You're even realising the point here, with this comment:

See?

The janky nature of requiring a Melee weapon is exactly the problem. It shouldn't be needed.

And even then, reworking into an Ability Melee is not needed either. DE have shown that they can make abilities do decent damage that can be scaled to relevant levels in other frames.

Why not on these ones?

Going to also add to this, a lot of Stat Sticks have to come with really weird builds because DE seems adamant about making them super inconsistent.

Atlas' Landslide receives more damage from just raw Impact, since it has an abysmal amount of Crit and Status. I don't build a single weapon like that.

Ash has literally no stats that can be altered other than weird flat buffs from other abilities and outside sources, excluding combo count and attack speed. 99% of my actual melee mods don't actually do anything.

Gara has literally no Crit Chance and barely any Status, ignoring the nigh pointless Puncture mode, the Slash mode is completely neutered for no real reason.

Khora actually has decent stats, with decent range than most other abilities and gets massively buffed from her entire kit, on top of being able to use the exact same stat stick builds for insane numbers on Slash Procs and the like.

I just don't understand this system at all, it's so frustrating. It feels like Balefire Charger all over again.

Edited November 25, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I mean they had years to give these frames Exalted Weapons, but they didn't instead letting us invest time and effort into stat stick rivens and builds.

Honestly what's the point of riven even existing if the best wepons get crappy disposition, the new weapons get crappy disposition, and now the stinkers with best disposition can no longer be used as stat sticks... Not sure I like the change. Having all our existing stat stick rivens become useless overnight and having wasted tons of catalysts and formas on these weapons for nothing kinda sucks, especially since we'll have to forma the new excalted weapons too... Not a big fan.

Plus let face it this will probably be a nerf since you'll lose access to rivens on these exalted weapons.

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by (PSN)Stealth_Cobra

[(XBOX)DragonMan 2700]

Happy where talking about this.

So, my thoughts are to streamline and make the game more cohesive with existing systems stat stick should be removed.

However, I believe DE should give us something in return, 🤔how did DE put it again "hug n, kick" was it.

The Hug-

• pseudo exalted's become true Exalted's

• DE goes over and make's a balancing/buff pass on Exalted's

• mods like blood rush, weeping wounds and hopefully more become eligible for Exalted's

I'm 50/50 🫳 on this next one.

• Exalted rivens.  that stay at half dispo always, as in there locked at the halfway point. They also draw from riven pool example - rifle riven, pistol riven, exalted riven.

The point of exalted rivens is to keep the riven aspect of stat sticks but incorporate the streamline functionality the Exalted system provides. And I know this open up the possibility for the current Exalted users to have more power that's why I suggested the dispo stayed at half n, the balance overview.

 

The kick-

• De removes stat sticks

• (if pseudo become true exalted)  we all have to forma more  (worth it Imo)

 

K, that's all I got hope you all have a good rest of your day. 🐲👍 

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

For transparency sake, I am (now) kind of apathetic to stat sticks, so whatever happens, wouldn't really affect me too much in one way, positive or negative. So I don't really have a horse in the race. I do have some experience with stat sticks though, and played in situations with and without them. The subject also brings up a general clash of player interests thats much broader and common as well. Like... on one level, I think stat sticks are so unintuitive, restrictive, silly, narrow, counter intuitive, and bad on multiple levels... on another level, its kind of interesting and fin as far as optimising challenges and techniques, to have to tinker and fine tune different systems to squeeze extra power and effectiveness with your builds, and dealing with a bit of weirdness to be rewarded with extra power, and just having another system to understand and learn. 

Like broadly, there are some people that want consistency, purpose, order, straight forward design, and then there are some that prefer having to adapt to weirdness, stuff being broken, so breaking it further, solving issues and coming up with solutions that work better than intended, and then having the knowledge, understanding that comes with all that. 

Like even in this thread, there will be those that would be fine with nerfs, if it meant the design of the system was more straight forward and logical, but then those that have adapted and adjusted and happy for the design allowing them to create such builds. There might be some who want changes without nerfs, but then even then, if such abilities end up as powerful or more powerful without all the hoop jumping... then thats a negative for people who think Warframe powercreeps too much too far too often. Personally, I think it could be fine if most of the Warframes associated with stat sticks were buffed in this potential sense  if there was a system refresh, but thats also because I also don't really care too much about power creep that much personally either. 

I have sympathy toward each side mind you, even if I don't have a horse in a race. Some days I find stat sticks annoying and silly, and so I just don't bother, but/and think it should be changed, but then other days I am bored and spend 2 hours making a stat stick and testing it out and enjoying that process and the results of my time and effort. Different folks have different preferences/approaches to the game. 

[Traumtulpe]

On 2023-11-25 at 10:59 AM, Birdframe_Prime said:

200k hit [...]

Saryn's Corrosive will strip that armour down to only about 24% of its strength in a few ticks, often while you're not even looking, while dealing those same damage numbers

...this is so wrong on so many levels.

Spores do literally 10 damage and have a decidedly mid status proc. What is that, their damage scales up? Yeah, to a hard cap of 100k, and it takes around 1.5 hours to get there.

Meanwhile Landslide can deal tens of millions of damage instantly.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Traumtulpe

[Nobodys-Perfect]

I think the simple solution is seperating them out into their own mod window akin to Garuda's talons, and increase their base statistics/scaling starkly to the point you no longer "need" a riven on them. That way these frames retain the extra layer of build progression and tuning they get from their unique melee-like abilities, yet hopefully without all the strange edge case weirdness currently present. This makes them function more closely to standard exalted weapons, which I see as the most sensible route for them given they are abilities.

When you use a melee riven with a high dispo as a stat stick for these abilities, it feels like you're taking advantage of the frayed edge of a system that was hastily implemented. I know you feel like these things NEED a high dispo riven to be viable, and in their current state that is correct, they often do, and I know you spent plat getting a 5 dispo riven for mire or whatever to use them, but having rivens affect WF abilities and their viability is genuinely a pretty gross encroachment of the riven system on warframe viability. 

These abilities are taking advantage of rivens for weapons that they're not, while also disregarding the disposition system intended for balance entirely. It's unintuitive and strange, Drawing from melee mods is a band aid solution that offers some build versatility, (a nice option in theory) but happening to take rivens into account for that feels like an unintended side effect they just went "yeah alright, why not?" and left in. Now that players are used to it, and have invested, there's pressure against removing it despite it not being sensible.

[sunderthefirmament]

12 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

...this is so wrong on so many levels.

Spores do literally 10 damage and have a decidedly mid status proc. What is that, their damage scales up? Yeah, to a hard cap of 100k, and it takes around 1.5 hours to get there.

Meanwhile Landslide can deal tens of millions of damage instantly.

To 1-2 targets, while depending on a gimped melee, and only hitting foes in immediate proximity with line of sight.  Furthermore, it locks you out of doing anything else while this is happening.  And, worst of all, you'd have to play as Atlas.  

 

Yeugghh....

 

I get a ton of mileage out of Saryn, even in Steel Path.  The spores finish off weakened targets, chip armor, reveal enemies, and beef up conditon/gundition overload.  And then there's the rest of her kit, which is infinitely better suited for Steel Path than Atlas' limp attempts at being relevant.  Yeah, from the jump, against the first grineer you run into on an exterminate or something, Landslide is probably going to kill it a lot faster than putting a spore on it and just waiting.  But no one does that with spores.  That's not how they work in high levels.

[Traumtulpe]

39 minutes ago, sunderthefirmament said:

That's not how they work in high levels.

And that was the point, Spores are a support ability that kills stragglers and softens targets up for your weapons. It does not deal 200k damage as claimed.

[0_The_F00l]

What's this ? An argument between khora abusers and most other players ?

I personally hate stat sticks as a concept , and would be very happy to see them removed from the game.

This may need one of two things to happen , 

The base abilities that depend on such things to be changed ,

Or 

There be a moddable weapon that gives all the bonuses you expect.

We already have weapons that are not exalted and still modded seperately , so the second option is not that far off as a possibility.

[SneakyErvin]

4 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

...this is so wrong on so many levels.

Spores do literally 10 damage and have a decidedly mid status proc. What is that, their damage scales up? Yeah, to a hard cap of 100k, and it takes around 1.5 hours to get there.

Meanwhile Landslide can deal tens of millions of damage instantly.

They scale pretty quickly and the damage of spores is per spore. So if you see 3k damage it deals up towards 9k damage if the target is inflicted by the max amount of spores, which isnt exactly hard to manage since they spread whenever you kill or directly hit them and apply to everyone within spread range and adds a further spore up to the cap. You quite quickly hit a point in endless where spores kill so fast on their own that you risk having them not spreading. And with the upcoming shard options, if the leaked info makes it to live, Saryn will also be able to strip all armor very effectively.

25 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

What's this ? An argument between khora abusers and most other players ?

I wouldnt call it abuse when the skills are designed the way they are with intent, to the point where it is mentioned in the tooltip even. I also love that people rain hell on Khora when Atlas is just as ape these days with his Landslide and the gearing options available.

Now I wouldnt mind a removal of stat sticks and the skills becoming self sufficient in modding. But it is risky to ask for it, since we might end up with an exalted vs regular melee situation, where the thing that should be the better option for the frame in question is quite a bit worse than a regular weapon. And exalteds will likely see normal melee widen the gap even further with the WitW update due to Tenno-Kai and Arcanes for regular melee.

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 2023-11-25 at 12:00 AM, Hexerin said:

2 things:

1. I hope that the context and implications of Pablo's reply is clear: Reb has gone on record as wanting to remove stat sticks.  Which is to say, the person with the most authority on the Warframe team thinks the game would be better if stat sticks are removed.  We as a community don't need to push Pablo.
    
2. I really hope none of us do anything to "push Pablo".  It's way too easy for such things to be spamming at best and harassment at worst.  Leave your feedback in the feedback forums where it's directed at the game and not at a person.

 

I don't know Pablo's stance on stat sticks.  For all I know he also thinks the game would be improved if stat sticks were removed, but there are always 50 different ways the game could be improved and the devs always need to figure out which one of them will offer the most bang for their buck.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

On 2023-11-25 at 2:00 AM, Hexerin said:

Stat sticks being required for a frame ability to actually function is just objectively bad game design. It effectively means that such frames aren't allowed to use weapons in those slots. To give an example, I'd personally like to be able to use Dual Keres on Khora (because they're literally her melee weapon). However, because stat stick mechanics, I'm forced to use Ceramic Dagger (w/ incarnon).

I dont disagree. But then rip anyone who invested time/plat/money/effort into stat stick rivens as well as stat sticks themselves.

[PublikDomain]

I'll repeat this every time it gets brought up: only changing the stat-sticks themselves without accounting for the systems surrounding them will only make stat-sticks worse. A major source of power for pseudo-exalted abilities is the combo counter. The combo counter alone is one of the largest damage multipliers you can get and will even outperform the strongest Riven. If all DE does is migrate stat-stick mods to the ability itself then the new best stat-stick strategy will be to put a ton of combo counter mods on your melee and then not use it for anything but building up and holding that combo. That would be significantly worse than what we have now, where you can at least find a synergistic melee weapon that scales well with the same mods. If you're not happy using the Ceramic Dagger now then I doubt you'll be happy using the inevitable Venka Prime combo holder that will take its place if things aren't separated cleanly. All of the pseudo-exalted ability frames would be like Ash where only attack speed matters.

The combo counter needs to be fully disconnected from pseudo-exalted abilities. That damage bonus can be baked in as a regular mechanic like Atlas' Landslide, where additional casts gain a damage multiplier and cost less Energy.

Without the combo counter mods like Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds would stop functioning, which would be a steep loss in power. Baking in some of that Crit Chance/Status Chance as base stats is an easy way to address that loss, and it also gives a good opportunity to let Gara/Atlas have better stats like Khora does.

The power from Rivens needs to be accounted for. Like them or not they've been a part of this system since the beginning and people have spent considerable effort and in many cases money acquiring them. Average Disposition Rivens with the right stats provide an easily-calculated damage multiplier, which can be baked in to the base damage. It's like 2-3x which can be added as base damage or to stats like crit.

On 2023-11-25 at 4:50 AM, (NSW)Greybones said:

What do you mean can’t use other weapons in that slot?

A lot of people think that the only way to make a stat-stick is to use the one specific "thing", which right now is the Ceramic Dagger with its Incarnon bonuses. Before that it was weapons like Mire or weapons with Syndicate damage augments. It's the same kind of topic you and I have talked about so many times. Yes, there are other options out there and you can use a weapon like the Dual Keres (I do!) and have a solid, reliable melee and still have a very powerful pseudo-exalted ability, but just because the option is there doesn't mean people are going to use them. Most people just want the best, and when there's one best option everyone only uses that one best thing.

Edited November 26, 2023 by PublikDomain

[DrBorris]

1 hour ago, PublikDomain said:

Most people just want the best, and when there's one best option everyone only uses that one best thing.

Or they want to use an ability in gameplay as intended without locking themselves to a specific build on their traditional melee weapon. But sure, it is easier to dismiss a group when you generalize them.

But to your main point, while I agree the combo system in general on abilities is fundamentally broken, that doesn't mean that removing stat sticks in favor of an exalted-like modding system wouldn't be a net improvement. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good or something like that. The core concept of needing to spam an ability for it to be effective is questionable, Atlas's combo system just means you are forced into 1 spam at the expense of weaving abilities/weapons together. But if all I get is the ability to equip Atlas, then equip whatever melee weapon would be fun to use with Atlas, I'd be happy.

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

...this is so wrong on so many levels.

Spores reduce Armour via Corrosive procs, the status chance scales with Strength and enemies can have three spores at once on them as long as you're farming them correctly. This takes armour down to 26% in literally 'just a few ticks' and down to 20% at maximum.

And you can, with Viral and the multiplier from Miasma, have the scaled damage of, say, 1200 on average (not on sustained Survival, of course, this is more average for waves on Defense), actually dealing around 25k per second to every enemy in range even before the Armour reduction kicks in to give her even further bonuses.

As soon as you're dealing that damage to... say only 7 enemies at once... then yeah, you've cleared the 170k damage per second range and are can be well over 200k. And Saryn can have the entire map ticking damage.

So... no, not all that wrong, Traum.

Like I said in that comment, originally, it's not the damage you deal, it's how you deal it. Both Atlas and Saryn need to scale up. You don't get millions of damage instantly with Landslide, you need to build Combo, stack multipliers and constantly target enemies in a surprisingly short AoE. You need to have a grouping cast to ensure the most damage dealt to the most enemies, or it's just a waste. Just as you don't get millions of damage instantly with Spores. Both take the build-up. However, one is clearly easier to maintain, affects a much wider area, and has all of the extra things to make its damage relevant when compared to the other.

[(NSW)Greybones]

2 hours ago, PublikDomain said:

A lot of people think that the only way to make a stat-stick is to use the one specific "thing", which right now is the Ceramic Dagger with its Incarnon bonuses. Before that it was weapons like Mire or weapons with Syndicate damage augments. It's the same kind of topic you and I have talked about so many times. Yes, there are other options out there and you can use a weapon like the Dual Keres (I do!) and have a solid, reliable melee and still have a very powerful pseudo-exalted ability, but just because the option is there doesn't mean people are going to use them. Most people just want the best, and when there's one best option everyone only uses that one best thing.

I’m aware that people only want to use The Best, like they’re some kind of distinguishing connoisseur instead of a some sheep looking for someone to tell them what to use or validation for how easily they can turn the game off while they seek gameplay. And that the fact that this game is literally designed around more than that and they refuse to engage with it even to their own detriment is something that has not escaped my notice, and that they use Steel Path as the balance measuring stick for validating what they think is ViAbLe and what isn’t is not a foreign concept to me even though SP is bonkers unbalanced and always will be as long as those modifiers are present and the Standard game is by design where we can take the most options in builds and loadout combinations from the modless baseline and still get rewarded with new toys to play with and the means to build them (with both materials and things like Mods).

We have talked about this before, yes. Last time I recall, I believe I was actually okay with your idea to strip away their options to build how they want and to stop players from leaving their lizard brains in charge by stripping away their ability to make such specialised builds and loadouts that far exceed anything else with extremely redundant amounts of damage for the part of the game (Standard) that isn’t a bunch of modifiers haphazardly slapped on for the sake of players who didn’t care about balance or variety only power (Steel Path). I’ve had my 2k hours of fun, if the game needs to be pared back for the sake of a bunch of players who can’t step back and realise “Maybe I don’t actually need to live in SP 24/7 or make the most Meta of builds”, so be it. I got a sadistic streak and am fine with watching the tears come as they realise that what they’re asking for and what they want are two different things

Edited November 26, 2023 by (NSW)Greybones

[(PSN)Hopper_Orouk]

And here I am thinking about a Pseudo-exalted weapon SUBSUME ability,
 

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

4 hours ago, (PSN)Unstar said:

2 things:

1. I hope that the context and implications of Pablo's reply is clear: Reb has gone on record as wanting to remove stat sticks.  Which is to say, the person with the most authority on the Warframe team thinks the game would be better if stat sticks are removed.  We as a community don't need to push Pablo.
    
2. I really hope none of us do anything to "push Pablo".  It's way too easy for such things to be spamming at best and harassment at worst.  Leave your feedback in the feedback forums where it's directed at the game and not at a person.

 

I don't know Pablo's stance on stat sticks.  For all I know he also thinks the game would be improved if stat sticks were removed, but there are always 50 different ways the game could be improved and the devs always need to figure out which one of them will offer the most bang for their buck.

DE has been painfully aware of Stat Sticks for ages now, just looking at the stats for Rivens is a pretty obvious red flag. This is just a direct confirmation in case anyone actually believed they somehow weren't aware.

At the end of the day though, it's a lot of work to change something most players are okay with. The Devs obviously aren't, and it will be changed, but there's things like stat buffs and what mods can be allowed to consider, especially since this might bleed into Exalted weapons directly with them just making it a big overhaul. Since Melee is being looked at, I wouldn't be surprised to see this being tackled this year. Best guess is they're trying out other buffs like TennoKai before fully reworking them.

It's just very obviously a minor priority.

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by (XBOX)Graysmog

[PublikDomain]

6 hours ago, DrBorris said:

Or they want to use an ability in gameplay as intended without locking themselves to a specific build on their traditional melee weapon. But sure, it is easier to dismiss a group when you generalize them.

Huh? I don't think it's dismissive to explain why it is that people are feeling locked in. Yes, many people would like to use an ability as intended without locking themselves into a specific build/weapon. I would too. And people lock themselves in to these specific weapons because that's the one strongest answer above all others. It makes the biggest number in a game where the biggest number is all that really matters. It's no different from saying "many people use required mods". But it's not the only way to do it, and it has many downsides which can be avoided by simply using a weapon you like instead of chasing a meta. Anyone using Mire or Jaw Sword or Amphis just because they have a big number attached are doing it to themselves and can stop at any time.

6 hours ago, DrBorris said:

But to your main point, while I agree the combo system in general on abilities is fundamentally broken, that doesn't mean that removing stat sticks in favor of an exalted-like modding system wouldn't be a net improvement. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good or something like that. The core concept of needing to spam an ability for it to be effective is questionable, Atlas's combo system just means you are forced into 1 spam at the expense of weaving abilities/weapons together. But if all I get is the ability to equip Atlas, then equip whatever melee weapon would be fun to use with Atlas, I'd be happy.

I think it'd be quite a net improvement? Damage outputs could be consistent and wouldn't require rare or expensive Rivens, you could use any melee of any type you wanted without conflicting with your ability use, and ramping up could be faster with less spamming. For example, Slash Dash could increase in damage with each subsequent enemy hit instead of using combo. Khora and Atlas could whip/punch multiple times by holding down their ability key for longer and could scale with Casting Speed. The window to chain a combo could also be less harsh. Blade Storm's speed could just scale with Casting Speed instead of Attack Speed, or instead of attacking faster DE could just spawn more clones to attack at once. Gara's could make use of her glass damage stacks from her 2/4 combo to scale instead of using repeated hits. There are a lot of options when it comes to making the abilities feel better to use and with less spamming.

Edited November 27, 2023 by PublikDomain

[0_The_F00l]

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

I wouldnt call it abuse when the skills are designed the way they are with intent, to the point where it is mentioned in the tooltip even. I also love that people rain hell on Khora when Atlas is just as ape these days with his Landslide and the gearing options available.

Things can be intended and still be abused , it's the scope , frequency and intent of the (ab)user that can help classify it further.

Not to be confused with an exploit which is never intended.

Atlas I rarely see , khora on the other hand.

13 hours ago, SneakyErvin said:

 

Now I wouldnt mind a removal of stat sticks and the skills becoming self sufficient in modding. But it is risky to ask for it, since we might end up with an exalted vs regular melee situation, where the thing that should be the better option for the frame in question is quite a bit worse than a regular weapon. And exalteds will likely see normal melee widen the gap even further with the WitW update due to Tenno-Kai and Arcanes for regular melee.

I do agree exalted melee themselves are in a relatively odd state due to modding , not sure how tenno Kai will affect them so a bit early to speculate.

I was thinking more along the lines of garudas talons though.

[Traumtulpe]

10 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

As soon as you're dealing that damage to... say only 7 enemies at once... then yeah, you've cleared the 170k damage per second range and are can be well over 200k. And Saryn can have the entire map ticking damage.

This is completely faulty thinking. You can deal 1 damage to a million enemies, that's technically a million damage, but in practice it has absolutely zero value.

[Hexerin]

8 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

This is completely faulty thinking. You can deal 1 damage to a million enemies, that's technically a million damage, but in practice it has absolutely zero value.

You could be dealing 10 trillion damage, but only to one solitary Maggot. You're dealing 10 trillion damage, but it's zero value because a Maggot only has 1 health point.

Your arguments to absurdity are a joke.