[PC Update 23.5] Revenant Feedback Megathread

[cursedmoon13]

I have new (unsolicited) ideas!

Mesmer Skin: Rather than the "I want to be functionally invincible for (time)x(#charges)" make it so each enemy can only make you use 1 charge per daze period. This way, the big complaints about burst weapons, and my particular problem with Hyekka Masters, are effectively null. Damage is still redirected, so burst fire damages the enemy for all shots in the burst while they're dazed, and if a Hyekka Master gets dazed by you walking in their fire, they take subsequent damage from their own fire while dazed. 

Some people have requested status immunity, but I think it should just redirect the damage from damaging statuses instead, so slash, fire, toxin, gas, electric, etc. procs damage their sources, while you still take full effect from non-damaging procs like radiation, just so you don't get too complacent.

Reave: I still think it needs to feel faster, but that's old news. Since enemy (E)HP scales so high, eventually you waste a lot of the health and/or shields you may have gained, so how about converting overflow health to shields, overflow shields to overshields, and if you cap on both, the remainder goes towards refunding the energy cost of Reave? My current thinking of the most practical conversion is that the % of health/shields wasted equates to the same % of Reaves cost refunded.

Danse Macabre: Okay, so this is the biggest change, and therefore least likely to be adopted (it being post-release and all) but since the previous changes to his 4 already put the frame into a polarizing position of  "not worth using" vs. "still one trick pony" I thought I'd put forward an alternative. Might need a new name, but how about 4 is now like the Eidolon's S.O.S. scream, and summons Revenant's thralls to him, while having an aura that lifedrains thralls while proccing status on enemies (Eidolons do Magnetic, but that's near worthless against AI, so I was thinking Radiation). It could still be channeled, or it could be duration based, with the aura being constant or in pulses (which could look like the ones that the eidolons emit after their synovias break). As unlikely as this change may be at this time, it captures both Eidolon and vampire themes, and works well with Revenant's other abilities.

Edited September 5, 2018 by cursedmoon13
punctuation

[(XBOX)OneOmniverse]

9 hours ago, (PS4)TheRallykiller said:

IMHO, at the end of the day, you need to have a frame that the majority of the community is "sold" on to drive interest in farming AND in-game purchase of the frame because it has a clear-cut use/role.

Thinking ahead of Garuda, it's really important to me as a consumer (both in $$$ and time) that something I "invest" in—even for enjoyment—offers a viable return.  It would really suck, if Garuda surpassed Revenant by some considerable standard or metric despite alleged co-development—they should both be "good".

With all the great media attention this game has gotten in the past year (really starting with PoE), I feel it's in DE's best interest to ensure Revenant and every subsequent frame (including Primes) has *true worth.

*Viability across all content and the meta-endgame-that-really-isn't-true-endgame content.

whats garuda? 

[Aeon94]

7 minutes ago, (XB1)IStudioGhibliI said:

whats garuda? 

Garuda

[GPrime96]

1 hour ago, (XB1)IStudioGhibliI said:

whats garuda? 

The next Warframe that’s getting worked on by Pablo. With her, she suppose to be Similar to Valkyr but in a more Cold, Gore -y way.

[Greyboots]

To start off with, Revenant works just fine even though he's not a top-class frame everyone is going to want to run.  He's got a weird power curve in scaling content because his thralls get harder and harder to kill as time goes on for a non-scaling return but he's fully capable of reaching the D rotation in any endless content just fine (though typically he's slow on the Affinity and XP cpmpared to all of the other frames).  I guess that's his big drawback - as a pet themed frame he's slow as pet themed frames usually are.  This is compounded in any mobile mission as the ground-based AoE damage gets left behind as do thralls on occasion.  This presents a few problems but Revenant is hardly "bad".  I think the main problem is people want more pets to hang around and do damage by attacking when damage is already catered for in another way.  It is far more effective, and economical, to constantly kill your thralls as they are created for AoE damage while leaving enough standing to spread and create new thralls.  From what I've seen most people try taking the hard-hitting enemies to deal damage rather than hold onto the fast-attacking ones to spread more rapidly so there's more to kill for more AoE damage.

They see more thralls attacking as the gateway to kill more quickly instead.  In the end Revenant is not a Pet class, it's an AoE damage class.  I imagine in time this idea will get around.

The other thing I don't see is people using pets for utility.  Enthralling enemies in Vauban's Vortex, and similar skills, and then killing them makes these skills quite powerful.  Likewise enthralling enemies about to die in Octavia's Mallet creates a swarm of AoE damage that bolsters her AoE.  Enthralling a Melee target makes them a guided missile to detonate when it reaches it's target.  Taking Corpus drones for shield replenishment can make you quite tough if you can get enough of them.  You can enthrall Eximus for their shield bubble for the same reason.  Even enthralling grineer troops near their turrets so they hop in.  It's often not a lot of damage against enemies but it does stop an enemy from shooting at you with it.  Like any other CC you can also enthrall things like Bursas, Nox and so on to make them easier to kill.  Enthrall is a utility skill as much as it is a damage skill. 

Solo he's completely capable if somewhat slow.  The largest problem is that in team content every one of your skills suffer.  Thralls die quickly unless you go off by yourself (definitely not the point of a team) and Mesmer Skin becomes a bit pointless because you're one of up to 15 targets (4 players, 4 kubrows/kavats, 7 thralls, not including possible Spectres) meaning you don't take many shots.  A lot of the stunned targets suffer the same fate as Thralls and get mowed down instantly.  If you want thralls they're rarely free, you need to chain cast and it's only for the persistent AoE damage.  In this case you need duration for Enthrall AoE damage which makes Reave incredibly unweildy, often ending up in a place where you lose most of the shields and health gained if you aren't careful.  Danse Macabre got a huge energy cost increase "to stop AFK gameplay" meaning Revenant is now a very power hungry warframe.

The end result is usually quite unrewarding.  If you're in solo content you're left with the nagging thought that you could do it a lot more effectively with something else being not only "quicker"; remembering that quicker not only means faster overall but also usually more kills so more affinity and more loot.   In team play, unless you want to just spam Danse Macabre, you're often at the bottom of the kills/damage stats the game gives you at the end of every match.

A lot of people have commented that he feels "rushed" and I personally don't feel that's the case.  I find him an overly convoluted frame that feels really artificial in it's synergies and a bit broken in team play because it's internal synergies all revolve around thralls; I'd more describe Revenant as "forced" rather than "rushed".

The "gameplay problems" I found is that all of his skills require being near the enemy to use but he's got a "glass cannon" stat setup and his defensive skills often don't matter - either the content level doesn't need them or they just aren't big enough to make a difference.  His overshields could be built up over time but because you're always near the enemy they just don't seem to in any content challenging enough to be worth using Thralls.  Having thralls destroyed unintentionally also isn't limited to team play as any decently modded Sentinel/Kubrow/Kavat can destroy thralls in the crossfire.

Here's the main issue as I see it:  Players are intensely overpowered in Warframe.  So overpowered in every given situation (because there's a frame or gun to solve every problem players might encounter) that the only way the game can "reward" players in general play (ie:  not boss farming for a new frame or weapon or putting the forma on and gathering mods for that new frame/weapon) is through the stats chart at the end of the mission.  Who did the most damage and who got the most kills in a game of keeping up with the Jonses with other players.  Support frames, as a result, often aren't all that rewarding in general play as what they tend to do is make power-frames better at dealing damage to top those charts.  Revenant is a particularly unrewarding frame to play.  It's never going to top those charts in a fair fight against many commonly used frames and it has no team-related buff to share that is globally useful so a player can feel like they are sharing in the glory of the top damage or the reward of being the one keeping team-mates on their feet in spite of incoming damage or able to get downed team-mates back onto their feet by weathering a hail of enemy fire.

There's not a lot to "fix" with him to be honest, he's always going to be one of the redheaded stepchildren in Warframe because of his slow structure and lack of "glory" but he can be bolstered up a bit.

• Halve the cast time on Enthrall and Mesmer Skin to put that time back into gunplay/beating on things with Melee.
• Give Thralls a 7 second invulnerability after being created (not all positive but will help Revenant out in team-based gameplay to get a few more free thralls in a reliable way).
• Make the amount of damage from destroyed thralls scale with content:  X + a bonus based on the health of the enemy. 

These couple of things would help a couple of major issues reported by players using Revenant and at least help him climb the damage/kills charts a little.

The one thing that worries me is that Revenant does much better in tight quarters but Corpus tilesets are about to open up large enough to make Zephyr more viable and include Parkour.  I rather doubt this is going to be good for Revenant either with thralls or opportunities to use Danse Macabre and probably negatively impact Reave, that latter two having issues with verticality in many any existing rooms.  Thralls also suffer from some iffy AI on existing Neptune open frozen spaces and the distance they can be dragged away in fights can make them difficult to manage from distance or line of sight issues when trying to keep their numbers down so they deal AoE damage but still have enough around to generate new thralls.

Comments on lore aspect:

It's pretty clear that Revenant is set up to be an "anti Orokin/corrupted" warframe.  Even the Rad/Impact of his signature weapon follows that line.  It's also the faction that offers the best selection of thralls of both an offensive and defensive nature in many respects.  In the end even his signiature weapon kind of makes no sense as it's Rad/Impact status weapon to be effective against corrupted but you'd be hard-presseed to come up with a worse damage combination for Revenant.  Any thrall you shoot at/near and hit but but don't kill you either turn back against your team with rad or knock them down.  Both statuses stop thralls from acting as a CC by pulling aggro of new enemies and both stop thralls from shooting at enemies and generating free thralls.  I understand the reason it was done (anti orokin/corrupted, the theme of turning enemies against each other etc) but it still doesn't make any sense at all when looking at how the warframe itself functions.

As I opened with, I understand completely why people say Revenant feels rushed but I favour that he is "forced".  He feels made to fit his themes for lore purposes at the expense of fitting the game.  Not a deal breaker of course but these things are going to plague Revenant because they are so integral to his setup through that strict adherence to themes in his synergies.  I personally feel that in spite of his functionality he's destined to be a fringe frame for some and MR fodder for the masses.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Greyboots
punctuation

[AbsolvedJudas]

Reworked Revenant Suggestions

 

Enthrall- Duration/Strength/Range Based Control 

Enthralls a single target who then spreads the Enthrall effect to other enemies through damage.

When Enthralled enemy dies, a spectre is summoned, similar to Vomvalyst. This spectre remains stationary and is immune to damage. Spectres attack enemy units with ranged lasers every few seconds until the timer runs out.

Spectres remain for half the time enthralled do, so at most if they die directly after becoming enthralled they remain as a spectre for half the time.

Spectres cannot enthrall through damage.

Strength Mods affect Spectre Damage 

Range Mods affect spectre and Thrall attack range

 

Mesmer Skin- Duration based Defensive 

For the duration of the ability, any enemies that hit Revenant are put to sleep and can be enthralled for free while Revenant takes no damage. Costs 5 energy per attack 

Recastable to replenish timer while still active.

Recasting this ability enthralls all enemies affected by the sleep effect.

Duration Mods Affect sleep effect

Efficiency Mods affect negation cost.

 

Reave- Duration/Strength based Self survivability Buff

Gain a lifesteal effect on all damage dealt by Revenant and his thralls/spectres, restoring health to Revenant.

Strength Mods affect Lifesteal %

 

Dance Macabre- Duration/Strength/Range based dps ability 

Convert all enthralled enemies to spectres- spectres remain for the duration of this ability but are destroyed at the end. 

Spectres are super charged and release a continual stream of laser energy attacks that adapt damage type to enemy type. Their attacks can be focussed on a single target by pressing 4 while aiming at the specific enemy the Revenant wishes them to focus on. Otherwise they focus on enemies closest to them and then moving outwards. 

When the ability ends, spectres are destroyed and converted into shields and over shields for Revenant. Synergises with 1,2 and 3 abilities

Duration Mods affect Duration

Strength Mods affect spectre damage and shield/over shield conversion

Range Mods affect Spectre attack range 

 

Retaliation Passive- 

When Shields are depleted, Revenant releases an irradiating burst that afflicts enemy units around the Revenant as well as smaller radiation bursts from any thralls/spectres. 5 energy is restored to Revenant for each enemy hit by this.

Potentially size of irradiating burst affected by Range Mods and Strength mods increase energy restored

 

[MobX]

Does anyone know when he will be buffed?

 

[Azvalk]

After playing Revenant in many situations, I can say that he allows a very confident gameplay. He faces the enemies, diving into the heart of danger, and it's particularly fun.

The recent feedback that I have read and especially the suggestions of some, scare me. I hope that no radical change will take place, because Revenant is close to being perfect, and the changes he needs are really minimal in comparison to what some are asking for.

Firstly, it seems clear to me that it would be very practical to be able to use Entralls on several enemies at the same time, but at the same time, we shouldn't lose the possibility of doing it 1 by 1.
So, in the way of Gara 1, it would be necessary to be able to launch a cone or straight line version of Entrall.
To use Entrall several times in succession and to continue with Danse macabre is a sequence of action that we do regularly, but the time to use enthrall on 5 or 7 enemies, they are already dead thanks to the allies...

Also, the possibility of always being able to use Entralls, if we already have 7 Thralls, the 1st is released.
(Of course thralls shooting don't do this, only the use of power)

Secondly, fix 2 Mesmer Skin bug.
- The charge counter disappears when you switch to operator.
- The charge counter doesn't update when a nullifier attacks us.

I don't have problem with the fact that a nullifier succeeds in doing us damage without suffering the effects of Mesmer Skin, but if he reduces our charges, we need to see it, otherwise we do not realize we have to kill him quickly or flee.

Additionnal detail, I would really like stunned enemies to be open to the finisher.
You could even give a finisher passive property to the melee weapon that is intended for him and that will bring a little synergy.

Thirdly, Reave is quick to use during Dance of Death, but slow to use alone. Why ?
I remember hearing Rebecca saying it was his "escape move".
In this case it must be fast, and doable several times in a row without dead time.

Personally, I am still of opinion that it would be interesting to see this power to replace the roll of Revenant. But it's really optional.

And fourthly, Danse Macabre..
I personally don't have problem with the new energy cost.
Thanks to this cost, the power is used by choosing well its moment.
It is used quickly, to clean a pack of enemies, but in this case, we need a little help to reach our targets.
I mean, Revenant needs a possibility to overcome a few small obstacles, such as the iron fence around Hydron's pod.

The problem of thralls dying too fast under the fire of allies doesn't necessarily need the radical solution of making them invincible or very resistant to allied fire.
If Revenant could use Entrall on multiple enemies at once, the problem would be balanced.

Another solution that seems reasonable to me, is that the Thralls are indeed invincible to allied fire, but only for their first 5 or 7 seconds.

Edited September 5, 2018 by Azvalk

[Saturmorn_Carvilli]

Revenant has quickly become my favorite warframe. If he wasn't changed at all at this point, I find his kit powerful and useful from earth to Sorties solo to a full public squad.  I find Revenant to be the best jump into any mission and do well frame with him excelling at very specific mission types.  That said I will give my feed back on each of his powers.

 

Enthrall

I will admit I don't use this power often when part of a squad since my squad mates (or even myself) can just as easily kill the thralls.  The power is great for solo play for Interception making Revenant perhaps the best solo Interception frame.  Enthrall is also very useful for solo capture and spy missions since he can simply enthrall/stun the wardens before they have a chance to set off the alarms.  Enthrall also works great when needing to hack a console since the thralls are taking the hits and not use.  I find that 7 is enough to protect me both in number of bodies creating a barrier as well as drawing aggro.  This is not to say that Enthrall isn't useful at higher level content in a squad.  It just requires enemies that actually require effort to kill which is usually high level stuff.  Honestly, even as is, I think Enthrall is in the top ten of best 1 powers in Warframe.  Though, I will admit, this is largely due to many frames' 1 power being not good at all.

I am not going to complain about getting the ability to get more thralls even if I don't really need them.  However, I don't see making thralls immune to ally damage working great.  There is the chance it could hold up missions requiring all enemies dead (Defense, Liberate Camp), and even if it doesn't; still would have the nekros issue of allies attacking thralls instead of real threats.  No, I am good with thralls dying pretty easily as that is kinda what they do.

 

Mesmer Skin

I think his power is perfect as is.  I run a pretty high strength build probably giving me more stacks than the average long time player, but this gives me enough stacks that in even Sortie level non-endless missions I can usually manage them well enough to have least damage taken.  I treat this power a lot like Rhino's Iron Skin. And just like Iron Skin, as long as it is monitored and managed, I can usually manage to re-cast it while taking minimal damage.  Mesmer Skin doesn't allow the kind of protection to not juke and move to avoid damage, it just gives a little extra protection against the enemies you didn't see.  Honestly, any player that is complaining about this power is probability running a high efficiency/duration build for Danse Macabre sacrificing stacks for longer spin-to-win time and even damage with his 4 power. Either that, or face tanking too much.  I think Mesmer Skin is Revenant's most powerful ability as long as it is used properly.

While I don't think the power needs any change, the mist/smoke that goes with it can obscure aiming.  It often doesn't show the number of stacks after returning from using the operator until another stack is used.  Given how energy hungry this frame is, mean I perform a lot of void dashes.  I very much disagree with feedback allowing re-casting of this power before all the stacks are up.  At least not without using an Augment.  Like I said, I find this power comparable to Rhino's Iron Skin save this one scales with enemies.  It has a long casting time sure, but there is Natural Talent to speed it up and it can be cast in the air which allows Aviator to be used as well.

 

Reave

I don't really use this power with Revenant.  I play on a controller and have to cycle through powers so I can't reliably use it or use it easily with Danse Macabre.  Even if I could, it is still competing with my operator's void dash which allows vertical movement, greater travel distance, no cost of energy and with the arcanes I run health regen anyways.  I don't need health/shields regen typically and even if I did, I am not paying the energy cost of this power when Revenant is already a very energy hungry frame.  Perhaps the most energy hungry frame.  Reave might have some use in Danse, but like I said, a controller cycling through powers is going to waste a lot energy for that quick dash.

I would use Reave a lot more if gave casting cost + 25 energy off of thralls.  I would also like the ability to have directional control with it better hit multiple thralls not all lined up.  I won't complain if it gave back Mesmer Skin stacks off of thralls, but I think that might be too powerful.

 

Danse Macabre

All the 'trick' of this 'one-trick-pony' even if it isn't.  While danse is flashy and absolutely destroys low level trash mobs, it is more like a training wheels power of Revenant's kit.  It has its uses but it definitely isn't the end all, be all players make it out to be.  Because of the energy drain issue it has, I rarely use it for more than a couple of seconds (like Mesa's Peacemakers) except when I really want to clear and area or I know will have plenty of energy.  Given most of Warframe's mission are done while on the move, I find this slow-moving, ground-based attack fairly limited.  However, it does provide Revenant with damage and additional crowd control options.  It does just enough damage to make it useful at Sortie level enemies especially if you use the power increase. I prefer it being a channeled power as it allows more control over how long I think I will need use it before stopping.

While I can live with the current 20 energy/sec, I think it really should be more like 15-16 energy/sec.  I am not too bothered by the animation of it as I rarely spend a whole lot of time in it, but I could see how others might want something a little cooler looking.

 

Passive

I can't say I really notice his passive much.  However, that could be said for most warframe's passives.  So no real crime there.  I am sure it has come in handy and I never noticed it.  Which is probably something I could say for most warframe passives.  So I don't really have an opinion on it.

[maddragonmaster]

hey DE not sure if your paying atention to this but here's some suggestions for revenant. make him an energy vampire. have his 1st ability have a second function of draining the life out of his thralls and convert them into energy or make his passive gain energy depending on how many thralls he has with him. and then make his thralls immune to friendly fire. 

and do that shield rework you guys said you were going to do but let it slip into the cracks cause revenant and any other frame thats unfortunate to have higher shields then health and armor can actually have survival ability without requiring that nuke all ability or some other cheese to avoid an unfair death. or best be for making it simple just make armor effect shield strength. or perhasp give these shield focused frames a way to avoid lethal damage. and make sure the dang nullifiers can't f over revenant outside the bubble. i remember mogamu mentioning about a nullifiers bullet being able to bypass revenants mesmer skin and one shot him.

[Ramflare]

33 minutes ago, maddragonmaster said:

hey DE not sure if your paying atention to this

They have said they are but everyone should bear in mind that they have to read through over 50 pages (about 500 replies) on this thread, then they have to sort all that and plan how to implement that feedback in a way that will please everyone  - which is basically impossible. They also just got back from a long weekend, so i'd like to remind everyone to be patient & relax a bit. There's a lot of work for them to do.

A lot of people here also have said the same thing so maybe unless you have a completely new idea maybe hold off of replying - rather just use the reaction buttons to support the ideas you like. Personally i'd wait until the end of the week and see what happens then...

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

I think the conversation around this frame being as polarizing as it is speaks volumes about implementation and frame potential.

The game is almost at 40 frames, and *I THINK the community is at peace with some overlap between frame roles & abilities, but Revenant *appears different for the sake of being different vs. viable.

Although there are some folks who really sing Rev's praises, I have a hard time wrapping my head around Rev defenders who use words like "capable".

I terms of use, Rev seems to be a lesser Oberon, with some ability synergy, and the "ability" to run through multiple mission types, but where does he excel?

Post re-work IMHO Oberon is in a great place and has significant build diversity for all content (even some high survival meta).

Could Revenant become the frame that unifies opposing stances on his worth through syndicate mods?  In some ways, these become non-patch patches to abilities AND still give vanguard fans the ability to play the original kit...

[Madway7]

So I'm not sure if this should be added here, but for the people that really want to know what might happen to Rev next.

https://www.twitter.com/rebbford/status/1037345995602968577

Seems weird that the added Reave functionality with be tied to Reaving through allies, I hope it's not that you regain Mesmer Skin charges from Reaving through alies cause it seems... counter intuitive?

Allies act as a distraction if they are nearby, so you should be losing less charges. Also rarely will more than 1 ally be in a position where you can easily do something like this to them.

Should you tell them "dude, stop moving around so I can get charges back!"?

It's even currently hard to reliably even use the Vazarin node that requires you to dash through allies, so I'm really hoping it's something more interesting than what I said.

Unless it's just something like giving them Mesmer Skin? 

That would be ok. Still want Reave to give charges from hitting enemies tho.

(Also faster casting speed pls)

Edited September 5, 2018 by Madway7

[UndyingSouls]

But why cant they ether fix the kit a little bit. (if you look at him with out his first ability - he is amazing. 

it feels like the .....

1 - first ability doesn't feel right on him

the other three work fine (just need a little fixing)

2 - needs to get a few extra charges or a duration and not to be counter based

3 - ok i get it (get yourself out of the heat button.

4 - It works and feel ok but there is a small but - its an amazing group killer. Yet he doesn't need it - it can be changed to work (it can be like a eidolong rain of lasers that do) that would make a lot of sense 

 

(now we can simple change his 1 - to summon some leaser version of vomvalyst (to heal or protect the frame him self) it would fit the kit better no? they don't need to be mindless thralls.  

[Feuershark]

I'm staying on my position. Rev' kit is OK, but the ability themselves all have some defects. Main issue being the Thrall 

[ThatRoomba]

How are people saying stuff like "Rev is basically perfect" and then in the same post say "but I only use 2 of his abilities, usually just the one though... and I dont even notice the passive". This is not one particular person, but many people on here and on Reddit.

Pointing out faults constructively is not being mean or not supportive of DE. the only way you're going to get the situation better is by being honest... which begins with being honest with yourself. You don't get a prize for putting up with a half useless frame.

 

I'm not expecting an entire overhaul (cough, remove danse macabre, and put in something that actually fits, currently it is a thin justification for the rest of his kit, cough), but I am curious to see what direction they take him. 

Edited September 5, 2018 by Fonk

[GrimAtrament]

The easiest way to fix the thrails getting killed by teammates would be to give the thrails a grace piriod form damage maybe five or  ten seconds.

i still think mesmer skin should allow you to gain bonus defense to the damage type you were hit by. for a limited time.

 

thats about it for the main problems with this frame. 

[ShadowFel]

So, I've been playing around a bit with Revenant after his 23.6 changes, and while there is progress, I think there's more that could be done.  I rather like him, but I feel like he's missing some of his potential, so I'm going to do my best to try to keep my suggestions as changes to the stats of the abilities without changing their core functionality, as I think that the core functionality of Revenant has a lot of potential.

Passive: I can't actually speak much about this, as I haven't had my shield broken very much while playing as Revenant.  Which, in turn, may be indicative that his passive could be changed to be more useful, though I don't know what that change would be.

Enthrall: The ability that Revenant is built around...and also the one that allies can almost completely negate.  That said, it's kind of fun to get your own squadron of enemies built up.  7 is a good number, though it still can still feel a little low.  But the big problem is that your thralls will often die before they can infect other enemies in a team setting, which means that all the synergies that Reave and Danse Macabre have with them will hard to pull off. 

To this end, I propose that any thrall directly Enthralled by Revenant can only be hurt by Revenant, but infected thralls can still be damaged by allies as well.  This way, Revenant can keep a thrall or two safe from his own allies, so that he can more effectively and continuously infect enemies and make more of those damage pillars.  At the same time, allies won't have to worry about too many invulnerable enemies getting in the way of their space-ninja murder sprees, especially since the main purpose of a thrall is to be killed and turned into a damage zone.  A few smaller changes that would also help Enthrall would be bumping up the thrall cap to 8-10 (the more the merrier), and making thralls immune to radiation procs.  It's no fun when your mind-controlled puppets suddenly turn on you because you're using the radiation-heavy high status weapon that comes paired with Revenant! 

Something I'd love to see, but don't expect, would be Enthrall being permanent on Vomvalysts, and Enthralled Vomvalysts not counting towards the thrall cap.  Would just be a fun little way for Revenant to bring something interesting to Eidolon fights.

Mesmer Skin: I like this ability a lot, but it's still rather underwhelming.  This is Revenant's defensive ability, what keeps him alive, so a base 6 charges feels a little low.  As many others have said, this ability can run out of juice pretty fast when faced with a crowd of Grineer, Corpus, or Corrupted, so it needs a little bit of help.  To this end, I propose two options:

1. Double the base number of charges up to 12 at rank 3.  The reason Watchful Swarm works so well on Amesha is because it has a good base number of charges, and many AW enemies can't hit the broad side of a Fomorian.  Mesmer Skin has to work with the more accurate normal enemies, so bumping up the number of charges would help a lot.

2. Give a 1 second grace period every time a charge is used.  During this period, no enemies are stunned, no charges can be used, and Revenant is immune to all enemy attacks (damage reflection can stay on, it doesn't do much anyways).  This would reinforce Mesmer Skin as a defensive ability, and make Mesmer skin a much more viable option for keeping Revenant alive.

Mesmer Skin has a couple other, more mild issues too.  It would be helpful of there was a visible bolt of sentient energy from Revenant to the enemies stunned, or some similar effect, to make stunned enemies easy to notice and Enthrall.  I'd appreciate it if it worked properly, and the harpoon attacks of Ancients and Scorpions didn't inflict a knockdown on him when he's supposed to be status immune.  The fog effects result in some mild visibility issues, and start making me feel a little unwell if Mesmer skin is on too long.  And last, rather subjectively, I don't like the casting animation for Mesmer Skin.  It just...doesn't look right to me for a defensive ability.

Reave: What is this ability for?  If it's a mobility tool, the delay at the start and the relatively slow speed of it makes it too clunky and slow to use effectively, and 75 energy is too much for a mobility tool.  If it's a survivability tool, charging directly towards enemies while fully vulnerable is never a great plan for that.  Especially since the only way to regenerate shields, the bulk of Revenant's durability, is to Reave shielded enemies, which only reliably exist in one faction.  If it's an offensive tool, then the damage it deals is awful for a 75 energy ability when Reaving enemies that aren't Enthralled when we play a game with inexpensive % health damage abilities like Smite and Undertow.  While synergies are nice, an ability, especially an expensive ability like Reave, needs to be able to stand on its own to be valuable.  And why are so few of its stats affected by mods?

So, there are two paths that I think could be taken with Reave.  The first is to turn it into a mobility tool.  If that's the goal, then turn it into Tidal Surge.  Reduce the energy cost to 25 or 50, greatly reduce the casting delay, and make the ability have a unchangeable duration of 1 second (it can still be cancelled out of, it just will last 1 second without further input).  Duration, instead, affects the movement speed of Revenant while he is Reaving.

The second, and preferred, option is to try to make it an effective mobility, offensive, and defensive tool worth that 75 energy cost.  This would require more changes, but probably end up making a much more enjoyable to use ability.  Still make the casting delay shorter, though, since that long delay before moving makes the ability very unwieldy.  I'd also suggest making the size of Revenant's wave affected by range mods, and the damage/healing effects affected by strength mods.  Then make it so that both shields and health are recovered from each enemy hit, regardless of whether or not the enemy has shields (or health, in case we ever get a shields-only enemy).  And make Revenant invincible while Reave is active, so that he doesn't lose as much health and shields as he gains while using it.  Then, boost the damage/heal on non-Enthralled enemies to 15% at rank 3, and reduce the damage/heal on Enthralled enemies to 30% at rank 3.  This makes it so that non-Enthralled enemies are worth Reaving without having outrageous power strength, Enthralled enemies can't be one-shot by Reave even with outrageous power strength, and it's better to Reave thralls than non-thralls.  With these changes, I think Reave would become a powerful tool for damage and healing for Revenant, and worth using at its high energy cost.  That said, even with all these changes, reducing it to 50, or making it so that Reaving thralls gives some energy back, would be nice.

Danse Macabre: I don't really know what to suggest here.  The ability isn't inherently bad, and it's currently the only ability Revenant has that brings real value to his team, but at the same time, it is exactly the kind of ability that DE seems to dislike, so I don't know why it was chosen in the first place.  The very nature of it invites a press-4-to-win, AFK style of gameplay that DE has been at war with for a while.  The energy changes to it do hurt that gameplay style, but the changes also hurt any other gameplay style that wants to make use of Danse Macabre.  I really think this ability needs to be rethought in a more significant way than the intention of this feedback is (keeping the core function of the ability the same), so, while I will try to suggest improvements, I do think this ability needs a serious look to be turned into something that's both more useful and more in keeping with DE's vision for Warframe.  It's basically a mobile version of what Peacemaker was when Mesa was released.  And changing the energy cost won't change that.

So, what can be done?  Uh, maybe making the beams' vertical angles match the aiming reticle's vertical angle, so that Danse Macabre can hit enemies higher or lower than the plane Revenant is on?  Like I said, it isn't a bad ability so much as it is a problematic ability, and I'm afraid I don't know how to solve the problems without integral alterations to the ability.

Also, just a little heads up.  I built all 3 Revenant parts between the first excursion wearing the mask and my second excursion, so I did the second and third encounters in the same excursion.  And I never got the third codex lore fragment as a result.  Hopefully this bug got fixed, but, if not, I'm sure other players would like to see it fixed.

Edited September 5, 2018 by ShadowFel
Had some additional thoughts

[(PSN)TheRallykiller]

I think in Titan Quest, your permanent summons ate up a % of your total mana.  So if you had summons up, you crippled your mana pool.

What if Thralls were immune to friendly fire, but each Thrall ate up X or X% of your total energy.

Most #1 abilities are meant for cheap direct damage and/or an easy introduction to a full kit; thralls just seem out of place on the ability hierarchy.

I'd have to inquire about the back-end code side of the ability, but it just seems incredibly complicated and code intensive vs. smite/decoy/landslide/etc. in terms of end results.

[antiqwiz]

Other teammember need a feedback about Revnant's Enthrall skill, because if it runs out, 6 member elite group turns against them  and they know nothing about when! 
So the enthrall sign above them should be blinking or something, so they have time to kill them. Or simpler solution: If Revenant cast Enthrall on other enemy, it will refresh the timer on other captured enemies, so Revenant should select which enemies need to keep, like a vampire lord...

[DefectiveMagus]

40 minutes ago, antiqwiz said:

Other teammember need a feedback about Revnant's Enthrall skill, because if it runs out, 6 member elite group turns against them  and they know nothing about when! 
So the enthrall sign above them should be blinking or something, so they have time to kill them. Or simpler solution: If Revenant cast Enthrall on other enemy, it will refresh the timer on other captured enemies, so Revenant should select which enemies need to keep, like a vampire lord...

Thats a great idea, amen. xD similar issue was with the nyx mind control. When the duration expires and the bombard you were controlling a moment ago start killing ya all xD 

[Omega-Shadowblade]

They are still working on Revanant with feedback. Energy drain rate on the ult and cap on the thralls were extremely simple to do as they are just value changes.

His kit actually isn't that bad in the right situations. Just needs some tweaks in some places like a change to AI on the thralls to make them more consistent with attacking enemies (for some reason they shoot at me and my companions which I don't understand), and they need to reduce the cost of reave. Its so heavy a cost for an escape. Powerful effect on thralls though. Very easy to severly hurt heavy targets, even bosses.

[Helmed]

This increase energy usage is incredibly annoying for danse mecabre

 

It became impossible to use revenant during a low energy mission even with flow and 175% energy reduction

[Omega-Shadowblade]

Just now, MarrikBroom said:

ther'es a reason all of my suggestiosn are tweaks on what is there rather than 'gut replace' why is it nobody here or on reddit can see I'm just calling for tweaks?

.... I was agreeing with you?

[--RV--arm4geddon-117]

@[DE]Rebecca

PLEASE stop being so obsessed and focused about reave and thralls, the first thing that REV's needs is a fix to mesmer skin, because hits dealing higher dmg than REV's total EHP ignore all the stacks , as well as nullifiers lanka shots, add a 3 secs grace period between the consumption of a stack and another ALA Health Conversion armor stacks mechanic.

As per this Thralls first ability the only useful thing that can be done is to change the way they die, so they explode in a 15m radius dealing as DMG a % of healt/shield/armor of the enemies hit ( ACID SHELLS anyone ), and reave is such a poor ability that could just be trashed and redesigned already...

This frame has nothing exciting let alone the feeling of a sentient based frame, you could have expanded his Sentient/Eidolon theme in so many ways rather than giving him an economy version of one of Nyxes abilities and a 3rd that's just a copy cat of Hydroid 2nd in a different pixellation lmfao.

Reave is really a waste of an ability slot and for the love of your dear community, scrap and stop focusing on those pitiful Pillars of light upon Thrall's death, the inconsistency of placement since there's no way to control it, makes it already a useless gimmick.

So far 2018 confirmed as the year of poor warframes that not only are underwhelming but they don't even have a decent Identity and i'm not holding my breath about Garuda whose theme is gonna be a copycat of Valkyr for the most part

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by arm4geddon-117