Can something be done about Saryn?

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

You do realize nerfing is a part of balance correct? 

Yes

[bibmobello]

I don't understand one thing:

Do you think the stats you see at the end of the mission means anything?

i hope you don't because they are totally broken and anyway killing enemies 1 km away doesn't mean a *** anything.

Ok mesa is a DPS, Titania has a good gun, Saryn is OP but if you wanna see 99% of damage i can just bring Ivara during level 5 bounties and then i should report the other ML27 people for leeching...

Edited August 6, 2019 by bibmobello

[Cubewano]

2 hours ago, FaithRose said:

For Limbo....there are conversations like this. It's the same reasons I got grief as frost before. People become very angry about not being able to attack monster in exterminate and defense especially. Yeah,AFKing is reportable, I am only stating why people complain about the frame, as you asked. As for Wukong there are a few posts in this thread that talk about his room clearing ability. I see it in clan chat, ESO, and now in the index apparently. Also, not necessarily you need the standing to get catchmoon :s it's even more obnoxious as the celestial twin isn't limited by player control, it's a bot that can auto aim and fire rapidly 😞

Frost doesn't prevent you from damaging enemies though, that's pretty exclusionary to Limbo's design. That said, his ability to influence player interactions and subsequently restrict other players behavior is a valid issue to want change in, and it part of why to this day Limbo is still a hotly debated frame. He's actually part of the frames I believe alongside Saryn fully need adjusting. In regards to Excalibur, I'm aware of why you brought it forward, and I was furthering the conversation by providing that it isn't a supported behavior, and is actually a punishable practice. And feel free to quote those instances, a lot of this seems purely conjecture without actually elaboration. Examples like your catchoom aren't about the frame for example, but the weapon, it is not unique to the frames kit, and in Wukongs instance doesn't gain any bonuses either from it. (Wukong does not have increased fire rate and his aim isn't actually all that perfect, especially for aoe weapons, given ai limitations)

3 hours ago, FaithRose said:

I'm kind of confused here. You asked why I was only looking at the negatives...that's pretty much why. As you use the positive reworks for you, I use the negative one's for me....because there is another side to it and just as a rework can be good, it can also go wrong...and has.

You only look at the negatives because I mentioned there were...positives? Why? 

3 hours ago, FaithRose said:

I'm not trying to be rude, but you have ignored alternate solutions simply because it doesn't involve a rework. I offered an idea for a more advanced looking for group. That way instead of trying to rework/nerf and entire frame because it doesn't support a very specific play style is drastic. Even then, just saying it ruins cooperative play is a bit subjective as there have also been players who say they enjoy Saryn in coop play. What it sounds like thus far, is some folks prefer to co-op a certain way and instead of even considering a solution that will support their play style, the only option being considered is to take that personal preference and apply it to everyone. And it's gotten to a point where the people asking for her to be left alone are being called selfish, but I find it kind of selfish to call for an entire frame to be changed based on a personal play style :s

What alternate solution? The ones I've informed you wouldn't work with explanations why? That's not ignoring, that's being rational. I acknowledged what you said, assessed it, then provided a counter argument for why it would not work, nowhere did I however just write the argument off unless I am missing something. Now you can debate what is the ideal co-operative play, whether being able to play or not while in a group is necessarily a good thing, though it baffles me so that the later would be an answer, but it still ultimately doesn't change my perspective on play or solve the issues I'm bringing forth. That said, you need to stop thinking that if someone doesn't adhere to your way of thinking they are ignoring you, I am fully aware of your argument, I took note of it, and responded to it with my grievances, I am not shelving the opinion because I don't want to hear it, I would be happy to hear a solution that satisfies all, but as per my response I don't think anything you've offered up to now achieves that, and that is all. It isn't that I'm not open to your arguments, it's that they aren't working from where I am standing. 

3 hours ago, FaithRose said:

Again, that's why I am asking for specific instances ( as I was asked to provide) that can help me to understand how she breaks the majority of the game play. There have been a lot of posts that say otherwise. People who DO enjoy her, who don't think she's broken, and they go ignored 😞 I don;t understand how offering an option to select frames you'd like to avoid is locking people out of game play....As it stands now people can just choose to play with clan mates or friends instead. This just takes that option to "pugs". It is a possible solution but it will go ignored because it isn't the nerf folks want...despite it being a means to remove playing with that frame 😞

The literal first post of this thread is a specific instance that should help you understand how she breaks gameplay. Removing enemies to such an extreme extent that enemy engagement is all but removed as an option for the remainder of your team is breaking gameplay. And that this scales well through most of the game and into sorties gives it incredibly broad reach. She is able to kill high rates of enemies, at extreme ranges, without line of sight, without fear of scaling even, at extremes. Currently the best CC in the frame is up for consideration to be made a damage oriented frame because frames like Saryn kill enemies to such efficient levels that it isn't even beneficial to have a supportive role, that enemy opposition/threat is so low that all you need is that damage dealer, that's invalidating gameplay. Then when the game has to rebalance to that stage of play, like ESO does, like Vauban may one day, like bosses try to be with ability immunity, well those things aren't toggleable, you can't just dip out of the game design and balance effects a frame like Saryn has on the game just by creating an opt out system for that specific frame, which is something I've explained multiple times. For your method to work, DE would literally have to create two separate balances for the game, with different mission and kit designs each, and to be blunt, that's not going to happen. It isn't a solution that would work. 

3 hours ago, FaithRose said:

I use opticor vandal for bursting their bubbles *pets opticor* but it can still be difficult to take out multiple nullifiers in wider maps. I normally greatly appreciate my teammates for taking those things on when I play Saryn.

That's probably why you're struggling, low rof weapons are not for nullifiers, not at least without extremely precise aiming, which isn't really a typical skillset acquired for this game. High rof weapons are ideal, you don't need aim, and the bubbles burn down quickly. They have a cap on how much damage they take per shot, so you want to land a lot of shots on the bubble, or a single shot on the beacon ontop of it and then go to town.

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

2 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

Pitting new Saryn up against Old Ash or Ember would place her a little lower on the "stupidly broken frames". I am quite aware of how powerful Ash once was.

I did acknowledge Equinox's damage capabilities, in fact I specifically stated that she can outdamage Saryn. Futhermore, Equinox players are much rare to run into than Saryn players, so I find them less of an annoyance.

You can roll out of the Rift.

Volt is one of the few frames that can compete with a Saryn.

At level 15-20 It can be a headache for a Saryn to build up damage, simply because she kills them faster than they can respawn.

Ash sure he is a stupidly broken frame but that is why i loved it, and now he is collecting dust with how clunky his ulti is specially on console. one of the reason why i despise these kind of complains.

ember on the other hand as mentioned is just for low level content and is not broken. 

saryn only excels in survival and eso where enemy spawns are endless. maybe in defense but a bit annoying. put her in the open world and my wukong twin without melee will make her fall to her knees. 

as many have put it already there is a frame in every situation. saryn out damages you because the situation is primed for her success. 

another question to consider is. why use saryn if i can have more loots in survival if i run nekros or hydroid. end mission score screen is worthless but loot count is a didferent thing. 

why spend 5+ minutes in defense if i can finishe it in 3 with saryn. in defense void fissure i nuke after everyone got their reactants to speed things up. 

boring? probably, efficient? yes, is it clowning around? never. 

this is a farming game and if meta dictates that this is the most efficient way to do things, people will follow. 

And when you succeed and destroyed saryn's usability because of nerf the meta will just switch to another broken thing and when all is gone because all is the same for the same of balance so are the players. 

WF is known for being overpowered it is a special niche that pulls players in and when everything is nerfed and gone, WF will just be another looter shooter devoid of its personality.

[bibmobello]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

Ash sure he is a stupidly broken frame but that is why i loved it, and now he is collecting dust with how clunky his ulti is specially on console. one of the reason why i despise these kind of complains.

ember on the other hand as mentioned is just for low level content and is not broken. 

saryn only excels in survival and eso where enemy spawns are endless. maybe in defense but a bit annoying. put her in the open world and my wukong twin without melee will make her fall to her knees. 

as many have put it already there is a frame in every situation. saryn out damages you because the situation is primed for her success. 

another question to consider is. why use saryn if i can have more loots in survival if i run nekros or hydroid. end mission score screen is worthless but loot count is a didferent thing. 

why spend 5+ minutes in defense if i can finishe it in 3 with saryn. in defense void fissure i nuke after everyone got their reactants to speed things up. 

boring? probably, efficient? yes, is it clowning around? never. 

 this is a farming game and if meta dictates that this is the most efficient way to do things, people will follow. 

And when you succeed and destroyed saryn's usability because of nerf the meta will just switch to another broken thing and when all is gone because all is the same for the same of balance so are the players. 

WF is known for being overpowered it is a special niche that pulls players in and when everything is nerfed and gone, WF will just be another looter shooter devoid of its personality.

If you consider the  "farming" factor, Saryn, Equinox,  Nekros and volt for example are very useful because they speedup the missions and  enhance drops but if you consider the fun a new player should have watching another player destroying everything. Everyone used Saryn on Hydron at least one time and banshee is even worst...

Edited August 6, 2019 by bibmobello

[(PSN)wildcats1369my]

6 minutes ago, bibmobello said:

If you consider the  "farming" factor, Saryn, Equinox,  Nekros and volt for example are very useful because they speedup the missions and  enhance drops but if you consider the fun a new player should have watching another player destroying everything.

and is it saryn the only one doing that? more often than not a new player is running while other are flying for the kills, nuker or not. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

5 hours ago, JackHargreav said:

Yeah but Mesa clears the enemies she sees in mere seconds, much faster than Saryn, since her ability might scale infinitely but it also needs time to actually become stronger and eventually it does too much damage and kills the host too fast.

And Mesa has DR. Put an Adaptation mod her some power strength and duration and you have a fast killing tank that doesn't give a flying about enemy lvl, damage and numbers.

And She's also the most meta Dps frame right now. While Saryn is used mostly in Eso. Outside of that mission type I've never seen a Saryn.

Saryn doesn't need much time at all to wipe a map by spreading spores all over the place and hitting 4. I can bring a saryn to hydron (or any other similar mission) and nuke the whole map so hard Mesa will barely get any kills. I really dont think you can compare the two.

Even the godliest most forma'd Mesa prime in the world cant compare to the ability to nuke an entire tile set through walls, with included scaling damage.

 

[uAir]

1 hour ago, moostar95 said:

 

What's wrong. Salty because I bet your unskilled self just plays nuke saryn and thinks the game is challenging. #*!% off. You are worst if you think so. You are on a thread targeting me on a frame everyone knows cheeses the game without help.  Inaros doesn't get threads about destroying people's experience because he has limits. Same with hildryn. Saryn kills offs targets quite easily on ANY mode Without players knowing. Get off your high horse, clown.

Why are you feeling so good thinking you play nuke frames less than someone else?
And Oreades has a point, the things you said you've done as "challenges" are easy if you're even half awake.

Then you counter those points with your comment? Please calm down and reread the exchange from your previous post about your completed challenges for yourself to your response I quoted above. You're the one who sounds really salty right now.

 

 

=================

 

 

13 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Saryn doesn't need much time at all to wipe a map by spreading spores all over the place and hitting 4. I can bring a saryn to hydron (or any other similar mission) and nuke the whole map so hard Mesa will barely get any kills. I really dont think you can compare the two.

Even the godliest most forma'd Mesa prime in the world cant compare to the ability to nuke an entire tile set through walls, with included scaling damage.

Wish you were on PC so that whenever you feel the need to flex your point about how OP Saryn is at Hydron please invite me first. I have some weapons I'd like to level up. Should definitely beat me rolling in ESO hoping for a carry to get me exp. Thanks in advance.

Edited August 6, 2019 by uAir

[(PSN)deathwolfclaw666]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said:

Ash sure he is a stupidly broken frame but that is why i loved it, and now he is collecting dust with how clunky his ulti is specially on console. one of the reason why i despise these kind of complains.

ember on the other hand as mentioned is just for low level content and is not broken. 

saryn only excels in survival and eso where enemy spawns are endless. maybe in defense but a bit annoying. put her in the open world and my wukong twin without melee will make her fall to her knees. 

as many have put it already there is a frame in every situation. saryn out damages you because the situation is primed for her success. 

another question to consider is. why use saryn if i can have more loots in survival if i run nekros or hydroid. end mission score screen is worthless but loot count is a didferent thing. 

why spend 5+ minutes in defense if i can finishe it in 3 with saryn. in defense void fissure i nuke after everyone got their reactants to speed things up. 

boring? probably, efficient? yes, is it clowning around? never. 

this is a farming game and if meta dictates that this is the most efficient way to do things, people will follow. 

And when you succeed and destroyed saryn's usability because of nerf the meta will just switch to another broken thing and when all is gone because all is the same for the same of balance so are the players. 

WF is known for being overpowered it is a special niche that pulls players in and when everything is nerfed and gone, WF will just be another looter shooter devoid of its personality.

I find Grineer interception and exterminate to be great for Saryns . With defense she is ok but I tend to outkill her with a few other frames.

Just yesterday I was doing the NW challenge to kill enemies using ice and a primary weapon, so I used my Frost and Ogris and went to Hydron. The Saryn I was with kept trying to start up their spores only for me to nuke the map with my 4th each time.

[Oreades]

57 minutes ago, moostar95 said:

 

What's wrong. Salty because I bet your unskilled self just plays nuke saryn and thinks the game is challenging. #*!% off. You are worst if you think so. You are on a thread targeting me on a frame everyone knows cheeses the game without help.  Inaros doesn't get threads about destroying people's experience because he has limits. Same with hildryn. Saryn kills offs targets quite easily on ANY mode Without players knowing. Get off your high horse, clown.

Yeah limits, like going the whole Profit Taker fight without even thinking about needing to heal, but hey let's both agree to pretend that soloing the Teralyst (read:Easiest Eidolon) with a frame that can facetank the Profit Taker is somehow a "challenge" and you're "challenging" yourself with that encounter. 

Ahh and clown, you certainly like that word, thing is (and you might want to sit down for this) that ominous circus music isn't coming from me. 

[FaithRose]

1 hour ago, Cubewano said:

Frost doesn't prevent you from damaging enemies though, that's pretty exclusionary to Limbo's design. That said, his ability to influence player interactions and subsequently restrict other players behavior is a valid issue to want change in, and it part of why to this day Limbo is still a hotly debated frame. He's actually part of the frames I believe alongside Saryn fully need adjusting. In regards to Excalibur, I'm aware of why you brought it forward, and I was furthering the conversation by providing that it isn't a supported behavior, and is actually a punishable practice. And feel free to quote those instances, a lot of this seems purely conjecture without actually elaboration. Examples like your catchoom aren't about the frame for example, but the weapon, it is not unique to the frames kit, and in Wukongs instance doesn't gain any bonuses either from it. (Wukong does not have increased fire rate and his aim isn't actually all that perfect, especially for aoe weapons, given ai limitations)

You only look at the negatives because I mentioned there were...positives? Why? 

What alternate solution? The ones I've informed you wouldn't work with explanations why? That's not ignoring, that's being rational. I acknowledged what you said, assessed it, then provided a counter argument for why it would not work, nowhere did I however just write the argument off unless I am missing something. Now you can debate what is the ideal co-operative play, whether being able to play or not while in a group is necessarily a good thing, though it baffles me so that the later would be an answer, but it still ultimately doesn't change my perspective on play or solve the issues I'm bringing forth. That said, you need to stop thinking that if someone doesn't adhere to your way of thinking they are ignoring you, I am fully aware of your argument, I took note of it, and responded to it with my grievances, I am not shelving the opinion because I don't want to hear it, I would be happy to hear a solution that satisfies all, but as per my response I don't think anything you've offered up to now achieves that, and that is all. It isn't that I'm not open to your arguments, it's that they aren't working from where I am standing. 

The literal first post of this thread is a specific instance that should help you understand how she breaks gameplay. Removing enemies to such an extreme extent that enemy engagement is all but removed as an option for the remainder of your team is breaking gameplay. And that this scales well through most of the game and into sorties gives it incredibly broad reach. She is able to kill high rates of enemies, at extreme ranges, without line of sight, without fear of scaling even, at extremes. Currently the best CC in the frame is up for consideration to be made a damage oriented frame because frames like Saryn kill enemies to such efficient levels that it isn't even beneficial to have a supportive role, that enemy opposition/threat is so low that all you need is that damage dealer, that's invalidating gameplay. Then when the game has to rebalance to that stage of play, like ESO does, like Vauban may one day, like bosses try to be with ability immunity, well those things aren't toggleable, you can't just dip out of the game design and balance effects a frame like Saryn has on the game just by creating an opt out system for that specific frame, which is something I've explained multiple times. For your method to work, DE would literally have to create two separate balances for the game, with different mission and kit designs each, and to be blunt, that's not going to happen. It isn't a solution that would work. 

That's probably why you're struggling, low rof weapons are not for nullifiers, not at least without extremely precise aiming, which isn't really a typical skillset acquired for this game. High rof weapons are ideal, you don't need aim, and the bubbles burn down quickly. They have a cap on how much damage they take per shot, so you want to land a lot of shots on the bubble, or a single shot on the beacon ontop of it and then go to town.

Frost does though. If there are enemies inside his dome, you can't shoot in. And since frost has the ability place multiple bubbles you can cover an entire area, stopping enemies from being targeted. I didn't know this until I had a higher MR person yelling at me for using the bubbles when i thought I was just trying to protect the team >.< For Wukong, it was something we actually experienced. The persons twin was killing the whole area of the map with catchmoon. The AI's aren't limited by player gameplay so the twin with catchmoon wasn't restricted by failed shots or having to aim...the target was just instant killed (by the by does celestial twin also get to use all the mods you have installed?)

And please don't think me rude but the explanations as to why they don't work still focus heavily on a subjective perspective of ruining cooperative play. Currently, there is no guarantee you will receive a support frame anyway in public matches. I had someone actually laugh at me because I main Trinity. I am going to keep playing Trinity because I love her style. I keep seeing the statement it ruins coop play, but there are coop players saying otherwise...myself included. Again, to the issue of ignoring opinions I feel the exact same is being done to me because I don't support a nerf...and any suggestion not supporting a nerf automatically won't work. To me, you only see the nerf and that's all you want to see done. You initially thought I was ignoring you because I didn't agree :s How would allowing a person to exclude a frame for a group search, require two different mechanics? As it stands now, there isn't even a guarantee that a particular frame is going to join a public game. Just add a check mark to looking for a public game, or as another user suggested just pair lower MR with lower MR. I suppose, what I'd like is an option that apply's to just the people who find Saryn obnoxious instead of trying to change the frame for everyone. It just feels more like, everyone must play the way I want them too, how I think coop should be, or it's the wrong way and the only way to fix it, is to change it for everyone else. Instead of users taking responsibility for their game play and customizing their instanced gameplay experience for themselves. The fact is, we are in control of our own personal instances (who we invite, how we pay, etc). It's an instance based game. If Saryn had been set loose in an open world map where she could nuke the whole map and prevent people from completing missions or stopping game progression, then I could definitely see arguing for a nerf....but that isn't exactly what we have. Her "fun" and "cooperability" are completely subjective. And his game already has co-op killing portions such as the option to set yourself to solo and any of the main quest aspects being completely solo. If co-op really is the issue, why wouldn't better co-op controls solve the problem?

Again, as others have stated, her ability to mass remove enemies is only at lower levels. There is video evidence from another user that Saryn's nuking power diminishes greatly at higher levels. She just can't do it. And if being efficient at killing is invalidating game play then everything might as well be nerfed? No more crowd control weapons, no more building frames and weapons for higher damage output. No more progression. I can tell you from my experience only, I've had more trouble with people coming through with a melee weapon and taking out an entire room than I've had with players nuking the map. And yes, at the extreme, Saryn is great at nuking a room....but of lower level enemies. I've also tried Saryn in open areas like The Plains and Fortuna...it was.....special. Again, this isn't breaking the majority of game play...it's special cases that allow Saryn to nuke a map....and not just the average Saryn, the person who has built her up for DPS. As for spreading damage through walls, it fits the theme though doesn't it? Shes essentially spreading a virus....it's supposed to spread rapidly and without mercy. To me, perfectly fits her theme. 

Perhaps you and I will just not be able to see eye to eye. I stand with my perspective and you stand with yours, which is fine. I'm here to make the other side heard because the vocal minority have ruined things before. If I am attacked for it, so be it. I want a solution that doesn't involve nerfing.

Yeah I actually just really like opticor (Like A LOT) but I find it a task to hit the machines above their heads. I'm currently testing out other machine gun weapons I might like to see if it makes it easier to take em out and nuke em up. I kind of like that the Corpus are harder for me though...makes it fun for me to try and recreate spores and get the enemies before they can erase my skills.

Edited August 6, 2019 by FaithRose

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

I mostly limit playing Saryn in solo ESO runs because I wouldn't wish my group experiences with her on my worst enemies.

My sole exception is during Sortie Defense missions. Because I swear to god, I will bludgeon that stupid suicidal Operative with my Wolf Sledge if I hear him cry for help one more time!

2 hours ago, moostar95 said:

*Bickering*

24 minutes ago, Oreades said:

*More Bickering* 

Oh geez. Get a room, you two!

Edited August 6, 2019 by (NSW)Ace-Bounty-Hunter

[Cubewano]

41 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

Frost does though. If there are enemies inside his dome, you can't shoot in. And since frost has the ability place multiple bubbles you can cover an entire area, stopping enemies from being targeted. I didn't know this until I had a higher MR person yelling at me for using the bubbles when i thought I was just trying to protect the team >.< For Wukong, it was something we actually experienced. The persons twin was killing the whole area of the map with catchmoon. The AI's aren't limited by player gameplay so the twin with catchmoon wasn't restricted by failed shots or having to aim...the target was just instant killed (by the by does celestial twin also get to use all the mods you have installed?)

You can move into them freely to deal damage, or use abilities of course, his bubbles also have a cap of four, but that does seem like a very narrow  and uncommon circumstance that mostly happens out of a lack of awareness rather than just overall problematic design. With Wukong I still believe this seems more to be an issue with the weapon rather than the frame, the frame itself is not doing anything extra for the interaction that couldn't be done by another, it adheres to mobility limits, reload limits, range limits, modding limits, it's a secondary player using a gun with limited intelligence, a person could do just the same. (yes it mimics mods)

41 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

And please don't think me rude but the explanations as to why they don't work still focus heavily on a subjective perspective of ruining cooperative play. Currently, there is no guarantee you will receive a support frame anyway in public matches. I had someone actually laugh at me because I main Trinity. I am going to keep playing Trinity because I love her style. I keep seeing the statement it ruins coop play, but there are coop players saying otherwise...myself included. 

It focuses on various aspects, you seem to only want to talk about cooperative play however. Do you have opinions on the design and balance ramifications? Role invalidation? Maybe we can go even further and talk about the ramifications segmenting off the player base further could have on the quality, availability, and speed of matchmaking. Co-op is still a factor of course, and I'd be delighted to hear why you think a situation where you don't have to or can really play is a good situation, but there are more ingredients to this pie. 

41 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

Again, to the issue of ignoring opinions I feel the exact same is being done to me because I don't support a nerf...and any suggestion not supporting a nerf automatically won't work. To me, you only see the nerf and that's all you want to see done. You initially thought I was ignoring you because I didn't agree :s 

Just because people do not agree to your opinion does not mean you are being ignored, I must urge you again to understand that sentiment. It isn't either you are right or you are being ignored. And I thought you were ignoring what I've said because you posed a response that seemed to completely overlook information I'd already offered at an earlier portion of our conversation, as if it was well...ignored. It had nothing to do with you agreeing with me or not, it was about you clearly leaving out already present information as if it hadn't been registered previously. 

41 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

How would allowing a person to exclude a frame for a group search, require two different mechanics? As it stands now, there isn't even a guarantee that a particular frame is going to join a public game. Just add a check mark to looking for a public game, or as another user suggested just pair lower MR with lower MR. I suppose, what I'd like is an option that apply's to just the people who find Saryn obnoxious instead of trying to change the frame for everyone. It just feels more like, everyone must play the way I want them too, how I think coop should be, or it's the wrong way and the only way to fix it, is to change it for everyone else. Instead of users taking responsibility for their game play and customizing their instanced gameplay experience for themselves. The fact is, we are in control of our own personal instances (who we invite, how we pay, etc). It's an instance based game. If Saryn had been set loose in an open world map where she could nuke the whole map and prevent people from completing missions or stopping game progression, then I could definitely see arguing for a nerf....but that isn't exactly what we have. Her "fun" and "cooperability" are completely subjective. And his game already has co-op killing portions such as the option to set yourself to solo and any of the main quest aspects being completely solo. If co-op really is the issue, why wouldn't better co-op controls solve the problem?

This all here for example makes me feel like you are ignoring my argument, as I've touched on all of it in previous responses, 

41 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

Again, as others have stated, her ability to mass remove enemies is only at lower levels. There is video evidence from another user that Saryn's nuking power diminishes greatly at higher levels. She just can't do it. And if being efficient at killing is invalidating game play then everything might as well be nerfed? No more crowd control weapons, no more building frames and weapons for higher damage output. No more progression. I can tell you from my experience only, I've had more trouble with people coming through with a melee weapon and taking out an entire room than I've had with players nuking the map. And yes, at the extreme, Saryn is great at nuking a room....but of lower level enemies. I've also tried Saryn in open areas like The Plains and Fortuna...it was.....special. Again, this isn't breaking the majority of game play...it's special cases that allow Saryn to nuke a map....and not just the average Saryn, the person who has built her up for DPS. As for spreading damage through walls, it fits the theme though doesn't it? Shes essentially spreading a virus....it's supposed to spread rapidly and without mercy. To me, perfectly fits her theme. 

Only if sorties are low levels, which to be clear, they are not -or aren't meant to be at the least- and the range from start to there is a majority of the games content. As for what makes something an invalidating playstyle nowhere did I say it was efficiency by itself that causes it as efficiency can be any level of function, its efficiency to the point of invalidation that causes issues, an important distinction to make, not all frames operate to the level of efficiency that it's breaking game systems/mechanics/balance. Not all frames are a Saryn or Equinox. 

41 minutes ago, FaithRose said:

Perhaps you and I will just not be able to see eye to eye. I stand with my perspective and you stand with yours, which is fine. I'm here to make the other side heard because the vocal minority have ruined things before. If I am attacked for it, so be it. I want a solution that doesn't involve nerfing.

Perhaps not, you seem to clearly lack interest in my side of the conversation, and I don't think I've heard your true opinion either given this direction, but I guess it's been a conversation. I wish you luck finding a solution that doesn't involve rebalancing however, it'd be a sight to behold. 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Cubewano

[Kimimoto]

On 2019-08-02 at 11:13 AM, MrRixter said:

Whats the point of me trying to improve my frames and get all the mods, arcanes etc

I mean if this is the question, there's way more than Saryn that will spoil that

[Lemon]

I would not mind her 1 and 4 damage be brought down a lot, it would really be sad if they changed her current mechanics since she is the only frame that can work as a one man corrosive projection aura and mass soak enemies in viral.

If she wasn't insta-killing level 30-60 but still had her current kit i think it would make everyone happy. People get to kill things and we still get good scaling for those that like endurance runs.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Lemon

[TheGodofWiFi]

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You aren't, and I must stress how important I believe it to be that you do.

I am. You simply telling me I am not does not mean its true. I was a new player once as we all were so I know what that perspective is.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

They aren't complaining about the Saryn's playstyle, necessarily, but rather the complete lack of playstyle on their end.

Which is caused by the Saryn's playstyle plus his own lack of effort. Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent the argument?

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

If you are unable to take part in a mission then you have no playstyle, and that is absolutely worth complaining about.

Again, you can take part in the mission, if you actually put in the effort. Moving away from players you find annoying or better yet, not going into public high-level missions were high-level players use builds that wipe enemies clean in a matter of seconds. You don't get to complain when you put yourself in that situation in the first place. I still can't believe this ridiculous line of thinking is that people think they can somehow complain when going into public matches.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

For some people power is the point of the game, where clicking a button and killing an army is the greatest thrill there is. Please don't be so narrow minded as to believe that this is the only point however, because for others that's utterly boring and goes against the very reason they play video games.

Oh please. That is the whole point of Warframe. The main content you get are weapons and mods which make weapons better. If a player wants to purposely handicap themselves by not using mods on their weapons or frames, they have no right to complain about others who do. The whole point of this game is to kill enemies.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

It is not, because once again you are failing to see this from a new players perspective, it is new player logic and you are completely failing to see it that way. What else are they supposed to think upon seeing a map cleared with a flick of the wrist beyond "whats the point in using anything else"?

I encountered players like that when I first started. I didn't immediately go "Oh this is so boring, whats the point in me doing anything when there are other players who can just kill everything on the map" because that is the logic that will stop you playing most online games with power levels. In most MMO type games, you will always have high-level players who can wipe the map clean. You don't walk into a new online game, and immediately start complaining about the high-level players because you feel like they make the game boring because they are naturally clearing all the content before you can. Bear in mind the OP also said this was one mission that he was bored in. One. And it was a high-level mission.

When I was new and I saw an Excalibur nuking the map with it's old Radial Javelin, I didn't think it made the mission boring, I didn't think "Oh whats the point". Every new players experience is completely different. You also do not see every single new player complaining about this sort of thing. If so the forum would be flooded with this kind of rubbish.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The entire game revolves around killing things, DPS is obviously king, so if you're new and see a DPS frame that DPS's so hard that no one else gets to play, you're obviously going to think "what's the point in using anything else?".

No you're not because Saryn is not the be-all-end-all damage frame and one would know that had they just continued playing the game and interacting with the community. This is why the OP is not going to have a very good time if this is the first instance he encounters something that is end-game level. Anything that has room-clearing potential - which a lot of frames/weapons have - will potentially make him feel redundant, in which case what do we do? A lot of frames can be built to nuke entire maps.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Hell, I wouldn't blame them for thinking, "what's the point in me even being here?", which evidently they did, hence the cup of tea.

Again, this can apply to any new player who encounters a high-level player with appropriate gear who has been playing for years. Not every new player thinks this way and just because I disagree with the OP doesn't suddenly mean I have never been a new player myself. We were all new once.

That is why I referenced other weapons, because they count just as much as a powerful frame does. Should we listen to every new player who says that they got bored because an end-game player in an end-game mission was making them feel redundant?

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

Are strawmen, as they are complaints about item 'x' being better than their newbie item 'y'.

No it wasn't. The OP's entire complaint centres around being made to feel uneccesary. As you already said, this can apply to any frame/weapon thats been properly modded and leveled. They were not strawmen as just pointed that out in a different way. The whole reason OP feels redundant, is because he encountered someone who clearly has an end-game level set-up which does not need the help of other players. But that was because of their mods. If OP encountered a Saryn who was the exact same level as him in the game and didn't have access to end-game resources/mods, that Saryn would not be able to do as much as the end-game version. Likewise if he encountered a high-level Saryn with high-level mods and builds - and actually tried to move away from the other player - I doubt he'd have trouble contributing to the mission at all.

It was also not a strawman as your capability to kill things is the main contribution you feel to a mission. If the OP just goes around seeing all these weapons and frames that can kill things quicker than he can, thus not giving him a sense of purpose in the mission, then what's to stop him from doing exactly what I said; asking for more nerfs.

Also, did you not forget the "whats the point in using anything else" complaint, which is clearly referencing how he thinks one item is indeed better than the "newbie" gear he currently has.

Stop trying to twist my argument into something its not.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That is not the argument that the OP has presented, as a reminder the OP's argument is "Item 'x' invalidated my role in the mission by leaving me nothing to do, this is a bad thing",

Yes and that was because OP felt invalidated because he felt 'item x' was indeed better than what he currently had. The "whats the point in using anything else" complaint also shows that. You are trying to act like I fabricted stuff he wasn't saying when it very clearly was. Any properly modded item in the game is better than what he currently has and thus has the potential to make him feel invalidated, since they can clear mobs quite easily.

He is compaining that he has nothing to do. So if a max range Equinox comes running through, that will also have the same result. Same with a Mesa, an Excalibur, a max range staff Wukong, an Ember and really any frame/weapon with instantaneous room clearing potential.

That is the argument OP has presented. "If it invalidates me, it should have something done about it."

You are the one fabricting arguments here, by acting like what I said was not what the OP was saying at all.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I'll wait until there's an actual thread about Wukong's staff being overpowered and ruining the game for someone before commenting on such a scenario.

Exactly the reponse I expected.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

That just won't fly, and I strongly suggest you rethink such tactics in the future.

Well it worked as you simply just refused to answer the question because it's hypothetical, which is not a valid dismissal in real life and in the game. It just shows you have little integrity.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

You're suggesting that a player who is new to the game should know better than to actually play the objective, and should, in the interest of actually enjoying themself, run away from whatever objective they actually have to perform?

If the objective is killing, which it always is; yes. If a player is annoying you, move to another room. If the OP feels invalidated because he isn't contributing by killing things, then go to another area of the map and make enemies spawn there. How is this such an incredibly hard (and apparantly abhorrent) concept to grasp? If your objective involves defence, then simply let the Saryn handle one area while you go to another. If the objective is survival, go to another area of the map. If the objective is exterminate etc etc etc.

Yet act like players absolutely must stick together and missions/objectives can only be completed that way. This is completely dishonest way of arguing, as the objective does not have to be sacrificed in order to have fun. Please do not try and spin that kind of tale because it just doesn't apply.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

The idea that you have to actually run away from your teammates in order to actually do anything is completely counter intuitive to anyone joining the game and believing it's a co-operative shooter.

Just because you put distance between you and your random teamates that you do not and never will know, doesn't suddenly mean it's counter-intuitive. It's still a co-op shooter, even if you are not playing in the exact same vicinity. If you just sit there picking your nose and making cups of tea while the others do everything for you then you have nothing to complain about. You won't find any random squad in this game where all players are in the same area in close proximity at all times. It just does not happen. Players will go off and do their own thing regardless of whether you have room-cleaning gear or not. Just because you are in a seperate room from your teamates does not suddenly mean it's counter-intuitive. A lot of people like to rush ahead and kill everything before everyone else does. Yes that has happened to me, both recent and when I was new. I never called for a nerf to whatever gear that player was using to wipe the enemies from existence as there was always still a chance for me to contribute to the mission myself.

I still get really annoyed when I find an Ash in my missions and do my absolute best to avoid him while still in the mission, does that suddenly mean the game is counter-intuitive? Of course not.

You act like everyone in this game is supposed to be 100% satisfied in their own unique ways and players can never find annoyance in one-another ever, which is universally impossible. Even if everyone had the exact same gear from the moment they start till the moment they finish, you would still find someone with something to complain about. It's the exact same with any MMO type game. You will not find a game in which players work together 100% of time and are completely content with each other. Please don't try and tell that you have not once ever found yourself moving away from a certain player in your squad because you find them irratating.

22 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I'm strongly strongly suggesting you reevaluate how you're perceiving this, because your response shows that you're seeing it 100% from the eyes of a veteran player, not a new player.

I would also offer some counter-advice; remember that just because someone disagree's does not suddenly mean that they have not been in the same position as others. Just because I do not agree with you or the OP doesn't suddenly mean I am not seeing from their perspective. MrRixter does not set the criteria of "the new player viewpoint". I was in his position years ago, I only looked at and went about it in a different way. I never complained, I never asked for nerfs.

I do not have to agree with OP in order to be counted as "seeing it from a new players perspective". He is not me and I have a completely different personality/viewpoint to him both now and back when I was a new player. I have looked at how he views it and I say it is incredibly closed-minded, lazy and selfish.

Never thought I'd have to tell you that you might need to rethink your arguments.

Edited August 6, 2019 by TheGodofWiFi

[Zakual]

On 2019-08-02 at 4:57 PM, Chaemyerelis said:

Saryn is fine, she only excels on certain maps/game modes.

Honestly having a saryn in your group is a god send if you're focus farming or leveling up something.

I wish more people felt like this, I've been using her to farm in ESO lately. The amount of people that leave is just absurd. If they just stay they'll have more than enough opportunity to kill something - saryn doesnt 1 shot in there whatsoever. Sure she kills quickly but not so quickly that they cant even swing attarax.

I've actually been raged at by a volt static build who was in the same group... as if what they were doing was any different lol

Edited August 6, 2019 by Zakual

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You simply telling me I am not does not mean its true.

Hence I explained why.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Which is caused by the Saryn's playstyle. Are you deliberately trying to misrepresent the argument?

Says the person misrepresenting the argument? The complaint is about the players inability to participate, that's it, you can say that it's because of Saryn's playstyle, but that is you deciding to represent the argument in that manner, which is not how it has been presented to us. That is a misrepresentation.

They would have a similar complaint if, in a mobile defence, someone turned off the AI and nothing left it's spawn room. Would have nothing to do with Saryn's playstyle, but the complaint would remain the same. Boredom due to a lack of actual gameplay due to a overly powerful item.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

or better yet, not going into public high-level missions were high-level players use builds that wipe enemies clean in a matter of seconds. You don't get to complain when you put yourself in that situation in the first place.

Oh, we've reached victim blaming have we? How delightful.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No you're not because Saryn is not the be-all-end-all damage frame and one would know that had they just continued playing the game and interacting with the community.

For goodness sake man, read what you're typing. "They would know if they played longer".

That's the sodding point, they're a new player. How many times must this fact be repeated to you? You don't seem to have grasped this yet, which is exactly what I have been trying to communicate to you. You are seeing this from the perspective of a veteran player, and something within you is completely resistant to attempting otherwise no matter how much you claim to have done.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The whole point of this game is to kill enemies.

Exactly. And when you can't kill anything then the game has no point, yes? 

Which is exactly their complaint and why they got up and made a cup of tea. Because there was no point in them being there, there was no point in playing the game. Why is something so powerful allowed to exist when it invalidates the entire point of playing the game?

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I didn't immediately go "Oh this is so boring, whats the point in me doing anything when there are other players who can just kill everything on the map" because that is the logic that will stop you playing most online games with power levels.

Good for you. Remind me why your experience with the game is the default experience that everyone should adhere to?

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

In most MMO type games, you will always have high-level players who can wipe the map clean. You don't walk into a new online game, and immediately start complaining about the high-level players because you feel like they make the game boring because they are naturally clearing all the content before you can.

You're right, I don't complain about that. Mostly because it doesn't happen.

Now I don't have too much experience with MMO's, but I have enough to know that for example ESO has a reverse levelling system in which a new player starts off with high stats and gradually loses them through levelling as they create a specific build, allowing them to remain, whilst not competitive, but certainly relevant across the map.

Guild Wars 2 simply scales the player down to the zone level if they go to somewhere designed for new players.

In neither of these games have I ever come across someone "wiping the map clean" rendering me unable to actually take part, nor in any other game of the sort I have played.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No it wasn't. The OP's entire complaint centres around being made to feel uneccesary.

I thought it was Saryn's playstyle? How can the entire complaint be about feeling unnecessary, or rather being unable to do anything at all, but actually be about Saryn's playstyle as you love to keep talking about? In order to be about Saryn's playstyle the entire complaint cannot be about being made irrelevant and unable to play.

To put it simply, a complaint about "being made irrelevant and unable to participate" will apply to any item that causes said scenario. A complaint about Saryn's playstyle is a complaint about Saryn's playstyle. You have chosen to read it as a complaint solely about Saryn's playstyle, which is not what was said.

You can't pick and choose what the complaint is actually about, because not only is that still misrepresentation, it's really bloody confusing. 

Yes, your points were strawmen, they still are strawmen. They are not accurate representations of the OP's post. The fact that you think they are is because you are misrepresenting their post.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The whole reason OP feels redundant, is because he encountered someone who clearly has an end-game level set-up which does not need the help of other players.

The whole reason the OP felt redundant and were unable to play the game is because the balance of the game is utterly broken. You can prattle on about "high end builds" but really, that's the crux of the matter, as even outlined in their post. Builds at our level are so powerful that they invalidate gameplay, leading to stupidly easy missions and unenjoyable content. "It's a high end build" is not a justification for the complete invalidation of actual gameplay, for anyone including the high end player, please stop trying to defend such a thing. It's atrocious gameplay design to allow players to... well, ignore entire swathes of the gameplay. You might as well just do away with said elements at that point.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

He is compaining that he has nothing to do. So if a max range Equinox comes running through, that will also have the same result. Same with a Mesa, an Excalibur, a max range staff Wukong, an Ember and really any frame/weapon with instantaneous room clearing potential.

What is the point you are attempting to make here? Because you aren't making one, you're just proving my point. Our builds are too powerful, not just on Saryn, but on a wide variety of frames.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Well it worked as you simply just refused to answer the question because it's hypothetical, which is not a valid dismissal in real life and in the game.

And yet it is. We're discussing things that have actually happened, not made up scenarios designed to manipulate.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

It just shows you have little integrity.

You attempted to manipulate me into an argument designed solely to expose bias instead of refuting my points, and when I saw right through it and slapped your wrist for it you have the gall to attack my integrity? How utterly pathetic.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

If your objective involves defence, then simply let the Saryn handle one area while you go to another. If the objective is survival, go to another area of the map. If the objective is exterminate etc etc etc.

How are you supposed to go to another area when there are several defence maps small enough that Saryn can cover the entire tile with a few well placed Spores? How are you supposed to go to another area in an Exterminate when a Saryn simply enters the room and kills everything before moving onto the next room?

Remember, new player. They aren't going to move as quickly and fluidly as the Saryn, and they aren't going to be able to get off much damage before the Saryn. Your suggestion of "go somewhere else" is not a catch all solution that applies to every mission and solves every problem.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Yet act like players absolutely must stick together and missions/objectives can only be completed that way. This is completely dishonest way of arguing, as the objective does not have to be sacrificed in order to have fun. Please do not try and spin that kind of tale because it just doesn't apply.

It's anything but dishonest. It's how generally how games are designed. PTFO is a well known acronym for a reason, you play the sodding objective if you want to win. It takes awhile for it to sink in that objectives in this game are largely irrelevant, and are rather just a dressing.

As I have said, and explained, numerous times now you are completely failing to see it from the perspective of a new player, no matter how much you claim otherwise. That is dishonest.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

This is completely dishonest way of arguing, as the objective does not have to be sacrificed in order to have fun. Please do not try and spin that kind of tale because it just doesn't apply.

Guess what? New players don't know that. It's almost like you're seeing this from your own point of view, instead of theirs.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Just because you put distance between you and your random teamates that you do not and never will know, doesn't suddenly mean it's counter-intuitive.

Are you serious right now? Of course it's counter intuitive. When you start a new game and see that there's a point to defend, you jolly well defend that point.

Point to defend = defend point.

Point to defend = run away from point, is an absurd notion to grasp initially and it's ridiculous that you'd suggest otherwise.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You won't find any random squad in this game where all players are in the same area in close proximity at all times.

Probably because you are a long term player playing with other long term players.

But, surprise surprise, the OP is not a long term player. Shocking, right? It's entirely within expectation to assume that a new player might spend more time sticking close to teammates and objectives.

Also yes, I regularly find missions in which people stay relatively close together. In fact I'd say that happens quite regularly. Outside of leeches in bounties I'll regularly find other players with me at the objective location when on PoE or Vallis, I have no choice when it comes to ESO and there's a definite element of sticking together in Arbitrations due to the increased difficulty.

So.... what's your point? Unless you literally mean "close together at all times" which is a fairly dishonest argument. I'll regularly play missions in which the squad stick around for the majority of the mission, the fact that people run off to grab loot occasionally or get to the objective a little quicker doesn't invalidate these missions.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

A lot of people like to rush ahead and kill everything before everyone else does. Yes that has happened to me, both recent and when I was new. I never called for a nerf.

Good for you. Remind me why your experience is the default experience that we should all adhere to?

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You act like everyone in this game is supposed to be 100% satisfied in their own unique ways and players can never find annoyance in one-another ever, which is universally impossible.

No, I'm acting like the OP's complaint is valid when seen from the eyes of a new player, instead of deserving of ridicule. Something you're seemingly incapable of doing.

I'm acting like the balance of the game is pure and utter garbage, and that upon being faced with assumingly their display of it, submitting a complaint about it is an entirely reasonable thing to do.

I'm acting like everyone should have the potential to have an enjoyable experience, where no frame should be able to invalidate gameplay and no one justifies it by saying "I put a lot of effort into getting this power", because in my (and certainly others) opinion such excessive power is bad for the game because it almost stops it from being a game.

And I'm doing all this because I want you to actually open your eyes and see it from a perspective that isn't your own.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Just because I do not agree with you or the OP doesn't suddenly mean I am not seeing from their perspective

My argument that you aren't seeing it from their point of view has nothing to do with the fact that you disagree with me, something you're certainly entitled to do. My argument comes from the fact that you're blatantly not seeing it from their point of view. It's honestly that simple.

1 hour ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Never thought I'd have to tell you that you might need to rethink your arguments.

You don't, my argument is fine but thank you anyway.

Now that took me substantially longer to respond to than I'd like, so I'll leave a warning. You're welcome to waste time typing out a huge response, but unless I actually see that you're capable of viewing it from the perspective of a newer player I'm not going to respond in kind. You'll have wasted all that time, and no one wants to waste time, right?

You can do this, I know you can.

Edited August 6, 2019 by DeMonkey

[Ikyr0]

59 minutes ago, Zakual said:

I wish more people felt like this, I've been using her to farm in ESO lately. The amount of people that leave is just absurd. If they just stay they'll have more than enough opportunity to kill something - saryn doesnt 1 shot in there whatsoever. Sure she kills quickly but not so quickly that they cant even swing attarax.

I've actually been raged at by a volt static build who was in the same group... as if what they were doing was any different lol

i outdamage and outkill Saryns in ESO with my Baruuk all the time 🙂

As i told OP, there are more powerful frames/weapons..but Saryn for sure is a bit "toxic" for new players.

As has been mentioned a lot, players who haven't completed the star chart shouldn't be matched with veterans.

 

Edited August 6, 2019 by Ikyr0

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

47 minutes ago, Zakual said:

I wish more people felt like this, I've been using her to farm in ESO lately. The amount of people that leave is just absurd. If they just stay they'll have more than enough opportunity to kill something - saryn doesnt 1 shot in there whatsoever. Sure she kills quickly but not so quickly that they cant even swing attarax.

It's not about being able to get in a few kills in the couple second window before everything dies anyway, it's about not making other players superfluous in an allegedly co-op game.

ESO (Everyone's Saryn Okay?) shouldn't be used to justify her (or any other frame's) current state, people that go into a public ESO today should absolutely expect a Saryn to be there. I sometimes go to ESO to let a Saryn level my stuff while I pootle around, doesn't mean I believe this is good/healthy game design.

18 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

You don't think it's possible for this situation to change? A return to a time in which enemy damage was relevant, where their health numbers were relevant, where resource management in the form of health and energy was relevant?

I really don't anymore...may as well create a different game at this point.

20 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

And if you truly believe that there is nothing more for Warframe than a moving shooting gallery in which unkillable characters throw out abilities and enemy level numbers arbitrarily rise, then do you not think that that's the hallmark of a fairly poor game?

Calling Warframe a poor game isn't really fair or accurate, there's a lot of great stuff depending on what you want out of it. For me it's better to say Warframe hasn't gone in the direction I would have wanted when I started playing just prior to Nova's original PA. At this point I just view it as a collection game to play between other games.

[kgabor]

Wow, i've read the whole thread including all the walls of text, this thread is literal OCD hell.

Just the fact the last 7 pages were written in under a day is telling of the magnitude of an issue a few messed up numbers can cause.

[Zakual]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

It's not about being able to get in a few kills in the couple second window before everything dies anyway, it's about not making other players superfluous in an allegedly co-op game.

ESO (Everyone's Saryn Okay?) shouldn't be used to justify her (or any other frame's) current state, people that go into a public ESO today should absolutely expect a Saryn to be there. I sometimes go to ESO to let a Saryn level my stuff while I pootle around, doesn't mean I believe this is good/healthy game design.

I never said it was a good game design either, however leaving simply because a saryn is in ESO at that time is just petty and boring for EVERYONE because the more people that leave the less likely it is for people to get very far at least in pug runs.

There are plenty of damage powerhouses in the game I mean people dont even look at gara or garuda  tbh which is amusing (I wont even start on mesa tbh beating a dead horse) and yes I know the global nuke issue isnt really gara or garuda but the point is balance is bad in not just global damage but damage vs scaling in general - I find it incredibly amusing and a bit sad that one frame is getting scapegoated because of a archetype that has been allowed to mess with the game for so long. If they nerf saryn then that should automatically justify nerfing everything else especially seeing as she only excels in specific areas something that I dont want anyway because hammer nerfing everything into the ground has never solved anything and neither will nerfing or changing saryn.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Zakual
lack of ability to write coherent sentences.

[DeMonkey]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

I really don't anymore...may as well create a different game at this point.

I know what you mean, but it's still something I will always want, no matter how implausible it may be.

Like winning the lottery, for example.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Elvenbane said:

Calling Warframe a poor game isn't really fair or accurate, there's a lot of great stuff depending on what you want out of it. For me it's better to say Warframe hasn't gone in the direction I would have wanted when I started playing just prior to Nova's original PA. At this point I just view it as a collection game to play between other games.

Ah, but that's my point. You view it as a collection game despite the fact it's trying really hard to be something else, more akin to an action ninja sci-fi looter shooter.

The fact that, in a lot of respects, it fails in this regard makes it a poor game in that context. It's a good collection game, sure. It's good for goofing off in, certainly. It's enjoyable to have something casual to do if I need to relax.

But as an action game, as a parkour game, even as a shooter game? I don't think it's good, not when you're at the level many of us either are, or are pushing onto other people, the action/parkour/shooter gameplay really just isn't there a lot of the time.

Edited August 6, 2019 by DeMonkey

[ReaverKane]

On 2019-08-02 at 4:39 PM, WellIHopeThisOneWorks said:

Yeahhhh, Sadly that is just what happens sometimes. Had that for a mobile defense a few days ago, walked in with my Equinox ready to try and play the game a bit, and watched the Saryn click 4 rapidly ontop of the point for ten minutes before leaving. Granted, I know that's a bit hypocritical as I was playing Maimquinox, but still! At least I have to kill a few things and have a few things die in my aura before I blow up everything....

In this case, you NEED to L2P... Sorry, but for equinox, having a Saryn in the team is like a blessing from god... You just pop your maim after Saryn built up the damage for you, nothing hard... If you're not toe to toe or doubling the damage output of a Saryn with Equinox... You're doing it wrong.

 

Back on topic: Its the way the game works. Saryn is kinda all about stacking those spores than that nice little 4 top pop 'em. You can do massive amounts of damage without the 4 and all..
But you know what? Go to a "Elemental Resistance" sortie, and that falls flat. I mean she'll still kill everything, but not as quickly or as effectively. Sadly the way the game works, Saryn is one of the few Warframes that can still reliably do high damage to really high lvl enemies, because she can stack those spores, which gives her the ability to scale up to 100k dps from spores alone.
But trust me, not only isn't Saryn the only map-wipe frame, depending on the conditions she might not even be the most effective. And like everyone says, it's nice to have that to fall back on... You don't want to "tryhard" every god damn mission after repeating it 100 times to get that one Meso K2 relic.

Edited August 6, 2019 by ReaverKane

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

19 minutes ago, Zakual said:

however leaving simply because a saryn is in ESO at that time is just petty and boring for EVERYONE because the more people that leave the less likely it is for people to get very far at least in pug runs.

Agree, given the current state of ESO you should expect certain frames to be heavily favored by players in public matches.

21 minutes ago, Zakual said:

and neither will nerfing or changing saryn.

Correct, problem is much more widespread than her spores and I don't think much can be done about it now, shrugs.

20 minutes ago, DeMonkey said:

it's trying really hard to be something else, more akin to an action ninja sci-fi looter shooter.

Is it trying really hard though...because I'm super confused about what it's trying to be? If it was actually trying I doubt it would fail so spectacularly. 🙂