Regarding Pablo's recent stream about saryn

[Violet_Xe]

4 hours ago, Cubewano said:

Unless what you're supplying has nothing to do with the rest of this conversation, which it clearly does, I'm not seeing how it breaches off-topic territory, this entire topic and our series of responses are about ultimately the games overall balance in regards to things like Saryn, and whether we should address the Saryn end or something else, you opted for the something else, anything branching from that is still on topic. Where advertising comes in I'm unclear on, sharing ideas isn't advertising, at least not in the way the rules take issue with, which is evident since forums are literally just exchanges of ideas/thoughts. So bring it at me. Or that first half as well. 

1. ^
2. I'm assuming this is about the application of the rework, is a bit unclear, but yes it'd be juggling because again de still have to work on other projects alongside any development on such a massive redesign, to keep the game going. and they'd have to continue working under the guidelines of that new balance structure until the game dies, or they go another route, to which they'd juggle that. live service games are in constant development, it doesn't end until the game ends. 
3. I'm not ignoring it, it's just not relevant to any of my inquiries, which you keep refraining from addressing interestingly enough. If there are similar problem factors they warrant the same need for treatment, but them existing does not erase the core issue. and as i've said many times, unless you can explain to me why their core impact should be preserved, it isn't a point to why change shouldn't happen. 
4. So does CC. Limbo's Cataclysm is a defensive ability, not explicitly CC, that's a separate ability and can also exist with a nullifier around. Defensive abilities have their own interactions with nullies, but that's not relevant since the topic is still CC. 
5. Redesigning the rest of the game is anything but direct. And having a ton of counters to her makes her weaker, and as explained before the only options to make her less viable is to bring her down to a reasonable level or bring everything up to her absurd level. You don't want the first, and I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. 
6. Because she is the select area its a problem with, and is the only frame the relies so heavily on it. And no randomized elemental counters amongst a roster of other counters in a typically randomized team layout game does not pave options, if anything it'd enforce a stronger meta since you have to reach for as much blanket coverage as possible to avoid a very inconsistent balance state. 
7. But it hasn't kept solo play in mind, or if it has you've yet to explain it. I asked how it'd work for solo play since it doesn't seem to consider it at all and you pretty much said that was unimportant. 
8. Adding lots of rng counters isn't content, and its so immensely convoluted it wouldn't be effective in achieving an overall good balance state. I also already explained game balance is an endless loop in a live service game, no matter what, so long as de add new things to the games design things will need tuning, and that's not a bad thing. You don't just create balance in these kinds of games, you have to maintain it. Also just because you think those frames are perfectly fine doesn't make it factual, and since you've avoided multiple times to answer my questions about why the state they can achieve is okay, I'm skeptical you even believe that in earnest. 
9. It's only in the past because the state of frames like Saryn, as explained already it could be the future easily. This is a non point. 
10. Duplicate argument?
11. ^
12. Says who? And why does it have to stay that way if its clearly a bad design? 
13. You keeping saying it's made with holes for DE to fill in, but like you don't have even a vague outline, you have make some enemies that counter each frame, which you seemingly acknowledge isn't manageable, and that's it. And for no express reason when there is again easier solutions that can be just as if not more effective. 
14. Again game balance is a constant task for a in development game, it is not a bandaid, it is a reality of game design, and it goes for your ideas just as mine. 

Your notions to solve the game are much smaller than you claim them to be a riddled with flaws that render them more of a problem than a solution from what you've presented. Pretty words for a very messy idea. 

 

1. (Addressing point #1) No it would be off topic, I know it would because it would become about how my raid and ideas balance out saryn and all other frames. Not only would that be long enough take take up an entire page but it would shift the topic.
2. (Addressing point #2) One of their largest content drops ever is coming soon which frees up a lot of room and they don't have many other confirmed large plans aside from duviri. They can work on that and work on and off on this for over a year. This is nothing compared to how many things they've had working at once.
3. (Addressing point #3) How is it not relevant? You say she's overpowered and should be nerfed yet why should she when there are frames that are almost as good as she is who have more uses than her and nobody complains about them. They aren't problems either otherwise we would see people complaining how mirage and volt destroy ESO. They should have the same reputation or close to the same as saryn's yet they don't. They're DPS warframes and do their job just fine.
   1. I have explained why they shouldn't be nerfed. Because nobody is complaining about volt and mirage. Saryn in specific people want nerfed because she's the most popular and has the best reputation. Saryn has the illusion of being useful in all content when she isn't. It's because her specific purpose just so happens to fit with most of what makes up warframe and DE seemingly won't develop anything not focused around killing. She isn't the problem, she's a specific tool for a specific purpose which DE has overused.
4. (Addressing point #4)That wasn't the purpose of that point. I wanted to show limbo's enemy which is nullifiers. Saryn needs something like that. Whether or not cataclysm is defensive or not is irrelevant. When did CC come into this point? I said nothing on point 4 about CC this wasn't the topic of #4. This was purely about saryn needing an enemy like limbo and nullifiers.
5. (Addressing point #5) I'm going to assume that was a typo "anything but indirect" which yes it is indirect. My ideas are indirect nerfs to saryn, but they are direct effects to the game to do so. That was the point. Were talking about saryn right? These are indirect changes to her. No these wouldn't make her weaker. How would any of the changes I proposed make her weaker? She remains with the same stats and strengths. The thing is viability of certain playstyles would lower while other playstyles rise. You're wrong and being very skew about game design right now saying there's only 2 ways to change a warframe's viability.
   1. DE already showed you're wrong here. Fire itself was changed and ember got stronger. But it wasn't just ember it was the entirety of heat based playstyles. Ember, nezha, Ignis, and more all rose in popularity post heat rework. You don't need to directly change something to make it better. You can use the game's existing systems to do so.
6. (Second point addressed in #5) I never said I wanted more warframes to be as powerful as saryn. Where did I say that? When?
7. (Addressing point #6) No, all warframes rely on status. Any CO user, Ember, Nezha Saryn, Garuda, Mag, Oberon, Loki, Revenant, Volt, Wisp, Grendel, and other all use status in their abilities. The meta uses certain status for specific actions, if you take action against the status itself ALL players feel the impact regardless of warframe because it's part of the meta. Please refer to #5.1 about heat procs. She's also not the only warframe which relies on status types.
8. (Addressing point #7) And i ignored it saying that it would be possible but is not recommended. It will be difficult. Does this sound familiar to something we just heard in a devsteam? Railjack is not built for solo and it's not recommended solo but it'll be playable. If solo becomes unplayable then fine it's a problem but I know my changes will keep solo play as an option.
9. (Addressing point #8) Yes it is content if DE releases stuff with it making us revisit old areas. It also makes gameplay challenging which is something we've wanted for a long time.
10. (Addressing second point in #8) They are fine. I have answered your questions. They are DPS warframes. warframes that deal damage and they do that just fine. Please refer to point #3 and #3.1 and I've also said why they shouldn't be nerfed. 
11. (Addressing point #9) No it can't. Unless DE decides to make missions that call for CC and not DPS CC won't ever return. I literally just explained that. 
12. 9 10 11 were all spawned from direct responses to your paragraph format. They may be duplicates but they have different evidence and prove the point all the same.
13. (Addressing point #12) Says the game. ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, Excavation. All of these games have hordes that saryn thrives off of and almost all of these are used for farming the majority of what's important in warframe. The exceptions being few and far between involving boss fights, speed run missions, and maybe the occasional spy. Many of the missions players hold as valuable saryn can dominate in and it's DE's fault.
14. (Addressing point #13) What do you mean I don't have an outline? Make content that doesn't favor saryn and frames like her in a variety of ways. Eximus that counter her, situations to make saryn more cautious, or missions that call for CC more than DPS. I've also given some specific examples of such through our debate. They are general suggestions with examples of how to go about doing so. Unless you've got an issue with that?
15. (Addressing point #14) Yes game balance is always going to happen but your suggestion is the band aid. Nerfing saryn just lets another frame replace her. You cover one leak and another is made. then you cover that up and another crack forms. and another and another. Game balance isn't only dealt with in nerfs and buffs. That's a 2 dimensional thought process. 

   it's not riddled with flaws. You think it's got problems because of your way of thinking and how you perceive the game. How in any way is making Saryn and frames like her less viable, and other more viable through challenging content a messy solution creating more problems then it fixes. It's easier said then done but that doesn't mean it can't be done given enough time.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Violet_Xe
Some spelling corrections

[VentiGlondi]

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Why do people like you insist on changing the game other people love just to accommodate your pleasure

Why do people like you insist on keeping the game in a state other people don't love, just to accommodate your pleasure.

My fun is more important to me than your fun, remember

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80% of the game

Oh dang, we've got some very clear numbers here. I wonder where they're coming from.

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overall pleasure

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people dominating you

I think there's a hidden message in here.

Edited December 8, 2019 by VentiGlondi

[Stygie]

Most people on the forums no me as that guy always calling for reworks and stuff especially Titania. Most people know I'm also lenient with de to if you read my posts and response to people. Hut as time as gone on I've been enlightened everytime I gave de some room the game just slipped and kept on slipping. I've begun to see this dark path the game is taking and it is not what warframe is about.

De is no longer releasing good polished content and it isnt even coming consistently. Sanctuary Onslaught? Buggy mostly forgotten save for leveling. Fortuna who? PoE who? Ghouls? Thumper? Orb mothers? Conclave? Raids? Nyx? And now the Liches. Whatever happened to the de who made content for their community?

Whatever happened to the de who loved and cherished their community and worked for them? Whatever happened to the de who would be ambitious but not let that ambition cloud their judgement? Where has our de gone? I am brought to the verge of tears thinking about it. I loved this game. I loved the devs. I loved warframe as a community even with the dummies who like to make this extra.

But now, it's not what it used to be. I dont look forward to anything, I dont want to log on. The though of playing even my favorite frame Nezha. My precious baby boy, is almost sickening to me. I know some well just tell me to leave, that they don't need people like me anymore. And I get that you think the game si well but it's not. I'm not the only one thinking like this and I'm not the only one leaving. When I have to force myself to play the game, it is not healthy. I wanted to build a better computer just to play warframe more and in better graphics but now... I can even bring myself to open the game.

I just want to cry, but that won't change things. The game I once knew and loved is dying. It visage never to return. I wish the devs the best I wish the game the best. I want all the success for this game, but I won't be here unless things change. Warframe can innovate, Warframe can become something knew. What Warframe is now, is the anthesis of what it used to be and stand for. With that I bid you good bye and the game itself probally delete. Goodbye warframe. Thank you for the memories I will cherish them. Maybe some day I will return if things change.

[kapn655321]

14 minutes ago, Lucian_Adrion said:

Whatever happened to the de who made content for their community?

They're currently really busy, working on content for their community.

What I mean is, they've been intending to release Empyrean and the new war since day 1.
They're finally about to launch that.

Perhaps when that's out and stable, they'll be able to get back to the bugs.
Part of keeping this game running is having to leave some things sitting for few years due to cost and burnout.

Edited December 8, 2019 by kapn655321

[Cubewano]

1 hour ago, Violet_Xe said:

1. (Addressing point #1) No it would be off topic, I know it would because it would become about how my raid and ideas balance out saryn and all other frames. Not only would that be long enough take take up an entire page but it would shift the topic.
2. (Addressing point #2) One of their largest content drops ever is coming soon which frees up a lot of room and they don't have many other confirmed large plans aside from duviri. They can work on that and work on and off on this for over a year. This is nothing compared to how many things they've had working at once.
3. (Addressing point #3) How is it not relevant? You say she's overpowered and should be nerfed yet why should she when there are frames that are almost as good as she is who have more uses than her and nobody complains about them. They aren't problems either otherwise we would see people complaining how mirage and volt destroy ESO. They should have the same reputation or close to the same as saryn's yet they don't. They're DPS warframes and do their job just fine.
   1. I have explained why they shouldn't be nerfed. Because nobody is complaining about volt and mirage. Saryn in specific people want nerfed because she's the most popular and has the best reputation. Saryn has the illusion of being useful in all content when she isn't. It's because her specific purpose just so happens to fit with most of what makes up warframe and DE seemingly won't develop anything not focused around killing. She isn't the problem, she's a specific tool for a specific purpose which DE has overused.
4. (Addressing point #4)That wasn't the purpose of that point. I wanted to show limbo's enemy which is nullifiers. Saryn needs something like that. Whether or not cataclysm is defensive or not is irrelevant. When did CC come into this point? I said nothing on point 4 about CC this wasn't the topic of #4. This was purely about saryn needing an enemy like limbo and nullifiers.
5. (Addressing point #5) I'm going to assume that was a typo "anything but indirect" which yes it is indirect. My ideas are indirect nerfs to saryn, but they are direct effects to the game to do so. That was the point. Were talking about saryn right? These are indirect changes to her. No these wouldn't make her weaker. How would any of the changes I proposed make her weaker? She remains with the same stats and strengths. The thing is viability of certain playstyles would lower while other playstyles rise. You're wrong and being very skew about game design right now saying there's only 2 ways to change a warframe's viability.
   1. DE already showed you're wrong here. Fire itself was changed and ember got stronger. But it wasn't just ember it was the entirety of heat based playstyles. Ember, nezha, Ignis, and more all rose in popularity post heat rework. You don't need to directly change something to make it better. You can use the game's existing systems to do so.
6. (Second point addressed in #5) I never said I wanted more warframes to be as powerful as saryn. Where did I say that? When?
7. (Addressing point #6) No, all warframes rely on status. Any CO user, Ember, Nezha Saryn, Garuda, Mag, Oberon, Loki, Revenant, Volt, Wisp, Grendel, and other all use status in their abilities. The meta uses certain status for specific actions, if you take action against the status itself ALL players feel the impact regardless of warframe because it's part of the meta. Please refer to #5.1 about heat procs. She's also not the only warframe which relies on status types.
8. (Addressing point #7) And i ignored it saying that it would be possible but is not recommended. It will be difficult. Does this sound familiar to something we just heard in a devsteam? Railjack is not built for solo and it's not recommended solo but it'll be playable. If solo becomes unplayable then fine it's a problem but I know my changes will keep solo play as an option.
9. (Addressing point #8) Yes it is content if DE releases stuff with it making us revisit old areas. It also makes gameplay challenging which is something we've wanted for a long time.
10. (Addressing second point in #8) They are fine. I have answered your questions. They are DPS warframes. warframes that deal damage and they do that just fine. Please refer to point #3 and #3.1 and I've also said why they shouldn't be nerfed. 
11. (Addressing point #9) No it can't. Unless DE decides to make missions that call for CC and not DPS CC won't ever return. I literally just explained that. 
12. 9 10 11 were all spawned from direct responses to your paragraph format. They may be duplicates but they have different evidence and prove the point all the same.
13. (Addressing point #12) Says the game. ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, Excavation. All of these games have hordes that saryn thrives off of and almost all of these are used for farming the majority of what's important in warframe. The exceptions being few and far between involving boss fights, speed run missions, and maybe the occasional spy. Many of the missions players hold as valuable saryn can dominate in and it's DE's fault.
14. (Addressing point #13) What do you mean I don't have an outline? Make content that doesn't favor saryn and frames like her in a variety of ways. Eximus that counter her, situations to make saryn more cautious, or missions that call for CC more than DPS. I've also given some specific examples of such through our debate. They are general suggestions with examples of how to go about doing so. Unless you've got an issue with that?
15. (Addressing point #14) Yes game balance is always going to happen but your suggestion is the band aid. Nerfing saryn just lets another frame replace her. You cover one leak and another is made. then you cover that up and another crack forms. and another and another. Game balance isn't only dealt with in nerfs and buffs. That's a 2 dimensional thought process. 

   it's not riddled with flaws. You think it's got problems because of your way of thinking and how you perceive the game. How in any way is making Saryn and frames like her less viable, and other more viable through challenging content a messy solution creating more problems then it fixes. It's easier said then done but that doesn't mean it can't be done given enough time.

1. It would not, it's still in relation to the addressing of saryn's balance state and how to proceed which is this threads general focus. If it wasn't the case this entire conversation has been breaking the rules and should have been removed or addressed by now.  
2. Rebalancing the entire game sounds like a pretty hefty task, even given their history. And they would still as noted numerous times, have to work on other content, they can't just do two things for the entire year, this game relies on consistent content, and when it doesn't get that numbers drop, we've seen that quite a bit this year, and it wasn't a fully dry year either. Alongside Duviri they'll be working on new frames, weapons, the lighting system, the ui rework is still going on, continued work on the lich system, expanding railjack since we aren't getting the full thing this year, the new war, etc. 
3. Because it doesn't address what I've asked you to address, which is why a power design like that is acceptable. So either address why you think it is okay for a frame to empty rooms with a level of impunity that leaves other players with nothing to engage with or drop the discussion because you aren't making a point with it. 
4. And you failed to, because its an entirely flawed comparison, and isn't even on topic. In a debate about the value of cc versus dps and how enemies influence it, a defensive ability has no relevance. Where cc and nukes are involved nullifiers have the same effect, so then I continue to ask where is the difference then? 
5. You know it wasn't, but I'm glad you agree your methodology is far from direct. And they make her weaker by making her function to a lower level, that is weaker. Power isn't just numbers, it's interactions, we have frames that scale infinitely that aren't considered all that powerful because their interactions aren't meaningful, power has layers. If you're making her power less impactful, regardless of the method, you are making her weaker. 
6. I didn't say you did. 
7. Which one of those frames is also a heavy corrosive stripping viral nuker? 
8. And I'm still waiting for you to explain how it would be done, since again it matters. 
9. You didn't mention stuff to bring it with though. 
10. Again you don't get to decide what fine and balanced is, and you have yet to make an argument for why they are that way, you keep avoiding to when I ask. 
11. I already explained that it can, with support, and you couldn't explain why that wouldn't be the case, so you seem wrong here. 
12. Yet you removed it from your original post?
13. Dominating something doesn't mean it was designed for that purpose, otherwise all over powered things in all games were designed for those games. 
14. So your broad plan now is just lots of counter npcs and missions that don't focus on killing? 
15. That cycle would repeat only until the final outlier is dealt with, it isn't infinite, and the list is short, so I'm not seeing how it is a band aid. But I do agree nerfing and buffing isn't the only way to improve a games balance, but it is a large part of it, redesigning isn't something you do lightly, and its certainly not something you should be doing to fix a very small minority of tools, and at an express risk to the rest of the otherwise functioning games balance. 

I've been quite objective I feel with issues I've presented to your designs issues, and you've yet to explain them away so I'm obliged to believe they are still issues. And I've expressed multiple times why this solution is messy, it has nothing to do with the goal and everything to do with the entirely flawed process you want to take to get there, from tearing up element balance for a handful of outliers to making a very unintuitive co-op structure to even throwing solo play to the wind, all when it can be addressed with a handful of focused nerfs to specific individuals. 

[Grimm]

its called being burnt out. take a break. the devs are working hard so dont blame them for natural burn out. just take a break for a few months.

[Violet_Xe]

6 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

1. It would not, it's still in relation to the addressing of saryn's balance state and how to proceed which is this threads general focus. If it wasn't the case this entire conversation has been breaking the rules and should have been removed or addressed by now.  
2. Rebalancing the entire game sounds like a pretty hefty task, even given their history. And they would still as noted numerous times, have to work on other content, they can't just do two things for the entire year, this game relies on consistent content, and when it doesn't get that numbers drop, we've seen that quite a bit this year, and it wasn't a fully dry year either. Alongside Duviri they'll be working on new frames, weapons, the lighting system, the ui rework is still going on, continued work on the lich system, expanding railjack since we aren't getting the full thing this year, the new war, etc. 
3. Because it doesn't address what I've asked you to address, which is why a power design like that is acceptable. So either address why you think it is okay for a frame to empty rooms with a level of impunity that leaves other players with nothing to engage with or drop the discussion because you aren't making a point with it. 
4. And you failed to, because its an entirely flawed comparison, and isn't even on topic. In a debate about the value of cc versus dps and how enemies influence it, a defensive ability has no relevance. Where cc and nukes are involved nullifiers have the same effect, so then I continue to ask where is the difference then? 
5. You know it wasn't, but I'm glad you agree your methodology is far from direct. And they make her weaker by making her function to a lower level, that is weaker. Power isn't just numbers, it's interactions, we have frames that scale infinitely that aren't considered all that powerful because their interactions aren't meaningful, power has layers. If you're making her power less impactful, regardless of the method, you are making her weaker. 
6. I didn't say you did. 
7. Which one of those frames is also a heavy corrosive stripping viral nuker? 
8. And I'm still waiting for you to explain how it would be done, since again it matters. 
9. You didn't mention stuff to bring it with though. 
10. Again you don't get to decide what fine and balanced is, and you have yet to make an argument for why they are that way, you keep avoiding to when I ask. 
11. I already explained that it can, with support, and you couldn't explain why that wouldn't be the case, so you seem wrong here. 
12. Yet you removed it from your original post?
13. Dominating something doesn't mean it was designed for that purpose, otherwise all over powered things in all games were designed for those games. 
14. So your broad plan now is just lots of counter npcs and missions that don't focus on killing? 
15. That cycle would repeat only until the final outlier is dealt with, it isn't infinite, and the list is short, so I'm not seeing how it is a band aid. But I do agree nerfing and buffing isn't the only way to improve a games balance, but it is a large part of it, redesigning isn't something you do lightly, and its certainly not something you should be doing to fix a very small minority of tools, and at an express risk to the rest of the otherwise functioning games balance. 

I've been quite objective I feel with issues I've presented to your designs issues, and you've yet to explain them away so I'm obliged to believe they are still issues. And I've expressed multiple times why this solution is messy, it has nothing to do with the goal and everything to do with the entirely flawed process you want to take to get there, from tearing up element balance for a handful of outliers to making a very unintuitive co-op structure to even throwing solo play to the wind, all when it can be addressed with a handful of focused nerfs to specific individuals. 

   Going to give a bit of advice, it's kind of getting hard to tell what you're talking about via bullet points. It's shorter than our other format but you need to explain in that bullet point what were talking about. It helps for organizational purposes and makes it easier to understand.

1. yes it would and even if it did I don't feel like saying the same thing twice especially when it's not needed. I've given a broad example of ideas taken from my raids and concepts and put them here. Examples related to saryn specifically because this thread is on her. Posting the entire raid does nothing but make the obvious more obvious and would take ages to read fr no reason then to clarify for you specifically. If enough people say I haven't made the circumstances and situations clear enough i may reconsider but I feel I've done a good enough job at explaining.
2. It's not like they shouldn't go back to revisit missions already, people complain about enemy scaling and endless rewards all the time. Mission types are flawed and need to be looked at especially endless ones. Why not mix some additions in there that not only satisfy the community for difficulty but take warframes like saryn down a bit. This is a multipurpose fix that works with what the community wants in more ways than one. Fixing important missions, making saryn and her class less viable, and bringing back CC all in one, maybe more if DE gets more creative.
3. I have gone over that already! She's amazing at places featuring specific circumstances where she floruishes where she's meant to. Other warframes are comparable to her so why must she draw the short straw and be nerfed when others are "just as problematic" yet nobody throws a fit about them. Saryn has no reason to be nerfed because she isn't oppressive and doesn't devalue every other warframe. She's not good at boss fights, she isn't a loot farmer, and she certainly isn't a tank or support. Damage is her only redeeming quality and horde damage to be specific. She's good where she is and that's all there is to be said on the matter. if a warframe provides the situation.
4. How did I fail at showing that saryn needs an enemy? Literally that point can't be wrong because she's got no enemy at the moment. She's incapable of being hard countered by enemies yet all other warframes are. usually nullifiers are good enough but she doesn't feel the weight of nullifiers at all. I used cataclysm as an example becuase if players build max range cataclysm nullifiers are the bane of their existence. Have you ever felt that way when playing saryn? that something shuts you down completely? no. She needs something like that whether it comes in enemies or mission objectives, which have been proven to work btw. Saryns aren't ever seen in massive boss fights.
5. Ahhh ok wait I see it ok. My bad that was a typo on my part leading to a miscommunication for a few posts >.<. sorry. I messed up here "Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things." thanks. I meant to say indirect.
6. You're right interactions are part of it, but with this change there is still no direct changes to Saryn. People can play her exactly how they do now if desired even if it's slightly less effective and required more work from her team. This is why it's called indirect nerfs. You could say she gets weaker but it makes her more reliant on her team now doesn't it? If she can't deal with everything like you want to believe she can, then this change would satisfy all players who want her not to be touched, yet also satisfy those who want her to not "kill everything".
7. "I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. " This quote here implies that I want other warframes to be as powerful as saryn. At least that's how I took it.
8. Sure she uses viral and corrosive but to this extent eximus and those are the examples because this is her thread. I gave an example of how to counter people with playstyles using corrosive and viral, hitting saryn in the process. This is a specific example and it can be replicated for other warframes and playstyles. It may hit her but it's not limited to her.
9. Solo play isn't important to consider outside of is it playable. I cannot be more blunt then that.
10. I didn't mention stuff to bring the changes with because were talking balance. Not reward. I also beleive DE can do just fine creating rewards and content given that it's their job to do so.
11. I've already explained why your explanation on DPS killing CC is flawed. I can admit it may be a small part of it but it's not necessary to correct. I explained that if DPS is removed people will just go to tanks because nothing calls for CC warframes. Even people who are respected for their knowledge of the game, trib and rahetalious said that CC isn't called for with mission objectives.
12. I didn't remove it from my post? I'm assuming you're talking about ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, and Excavation being good for saryn and good for rewards? sort of lost on this part.
13. Obviously domination doesn't equate to relevance. But she was forged for ESO and refined in it's systems. ESO launched update 22.18 of April 20th 2018 and shortly after update 22.20 of May 17th 2018 launched with S3.0 so it stands to reason she was custom crafted for ESO. Especially since this was the newest game mode and feedback of saryn and ESO mixed together so she was even refined for ESO. her post was even called "Beasts of Sanctuary Update 22.20 Saryn Revisited. If DE, and this is a big if, If DE did not make Saryn for ESO then they're incompetent and completely forgot how content plays into other content. If it also was an unintended fix why wait until now to fix it, or are they that lazy?
14. In lame mans terms yes it's half of it, but i've thrown more ideas out there. Reworked mission types and new mission types which don't feature Saryn favored content served to her on a silver platter.
15. So your idea is to bury saryn. then move to mirage, tear her apart like her previous incarnation, then kick volt's crotch? And once that's done and people start moving to tanks the cycle starts again. Then we eat inaros, nerf wukong again cause he really needs it, throw acid on rhino's iron skin, and etc etc. That many reworks sounds like it'll take years and not a year. Nerfing over and over will only push players from the game.

[kapn655321]

OP, for you I hope to find next year is different.

I've had the opposite experience this year.
They finally made my favorite melees good,
the story took some real wild turns,
they responded with several updates directly plucked from the suggestions for Lich systems and melee techniques.
Just this last dev stream they showed an update to a thread on here that wanted collision on the ship in the drydock,
to buzz around and check the place out in a neat cinematic way.

I understand that not every update is for everyone, and there's every chance you didn't get to see things being addressed
in real time with concerns to the updates.. 'cause that really impressed me, but might not have had a chance to effect you.
There's some growing pains in addressing the ongoing imbalance, but it's all inline with the spirit of the game to improve overall.

You may have had some really unlucky or crap experiences.. that's totally possible.

From where I'm sitting, I've been seeing a lot of good.
Feel free to talk it out. Maybe there's something you happened to miss out on that we could help fill you in on.
Wishing you the best of luck, should you feel up to checking things out again down the line.

Edited December 8, 2019 by kapn655321

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

22 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

Why do people like you insist on changing the game other people love just to accommodate your pleasure

Why don't you and people like you play another game where you are happy about how it's been played

the issues you are addressing are only issues in your eyes and people like you, apparently 80% of the game DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU BECAUSE THEY PLAY THOSE FRAMES AND ENJOY THEMSELVES, OTHERWISE THEY WOULDN'T BE PLAYING THIS GAME

if DE starts breaking down all the frames that are popular, this is only going to go one way

all the other garbage frames will become better but the overall pleasure people have in this game goes down the drain and people will leave the garbage of a game this mess has become by then

then the income level for DE will become too low when 80% of the game leaves and that will be the death of Warframe

if the game doesn't suit your needs, go play something else and stop crying about other people dominating you in the game or play solo or with your friends so you don't have to cry here

If 80% of your game's population is using only one or three frames out of the 40, then there is a problem. Either with the game itself, or the frame. Can you imagine ANY other mmo, fps, multiplayer game where everyone only used the same three or four characters out of the entire roster? Especially one as large as Warframe's.

[-CASTRADOMIS-]

I'd rather something be op and of use, rather than it being nerfed into mediocrity and never touching it.

Edited December 8, 2019 by -CASTRADOMIS-

[SpringRocker]

34 minutes ago, -CASTRADOMIS- said:

I'd rather something be op and of use, rather than it being nerfed into mediocrity and never touching it.

I'd rather be able to pick a frame and play the game, not have someone else play it for me just because they press a button.

[Cubewano]

19 hours ago, Violet_Xe said:

   Going to give a bit of advice, it's kind of getting hard to tell what you're talking about via bullet points. It's shorter than our other format but you need to explain in that bullet point what were talking about. It helps for organizational purposes and makes it easier to understand.

1. yes it would and even if it did I don't feel like saying the same thing twice especially when it's not needed. I've given a broad example of ideas taken from my raids and concepts and put them here. Examples related to saryn specifically because this thread is on her. Posting the entire raid does nothing but make the obvious more obvious and would take ages to read fr no reason then to clarify for you specifically. If enough people say I haven't made the circumstances and situations clear enough i may reconsider but I feel I've done a good enough job at explaining.
2. It's not like they shouldn't go back to revisit missions already, people complain about enemy scaling and endless rewards all the time. Mission types are flawed and need to be looked at especially endless ones. Why not mix some additions in there that not only satisfy the community for difficulty but take warframes like saryn down a bit. This is a multipurpose fix that works with what the community wants in more ways than one. Fixing important missions, making saryn and her class less viable, and bringing back CC all in one, maybe more if DE gets more creative.
3. I have gone over that already! She's amazing at places featuring specific circumstances where she floruishes where she's meant to. Other warframes are comparable to her so why must she draw the short straw and be nerfed when others are "just as problematic" yet nobody throws a fit about them. Saryn has no reason to be nerfed because she isn't oppressive and doesn't devalue every other warframe. She's not good at boss fights, she isn't a loot farmer, and she certainly isn't a tank or support. Damage is her only redeeming quality and horde damage to be specific. She's good where she is and that's all there is to be said on the matter. if a warframe provides the situation.
4. How did I fail at showing that saryn needs an enemy? Literally that point can't be wrong because she's got no enemy at the moment. She's incapable of being hard countered by enemies yet all other warframes are. usually nullifiers are good enough but she doesn't feel the weight of nullifiers at all. I used cataclysm as an example becuase if players build max range cataclysm nullifiers are the bane of their existence. Have you ever felt that way when playing saryn? that something shuts you down completely? no. She needs something like that whether it comes in enemies or mission objectives, which have been proven to work btw. Saryns aren't ever seen in massive boss fights.
5. Ahhh ok wait I see it ok. My bad that was a typo on my part leading to a miscommunication for a few posts >.<. sorry. I messed up here "Silent and direct because she's fine as is. No she doesn't get weaker, she just becomes less viable. CC is just as powerful as it was in the past but it has less value. value and power are different things." thanks. I meant to say indirect.
6. You're right interactions are part of it, but with this change there is still no direct changes to Saryn. People can play her exactly how they do now if desired even if it's slightly less effective and required more work from her team. This is why it's called indirect nerfs. You could say she gets weaker but it makes her more reliant on her team now doesn't it? If she can't deal with everything like you want to believe she can, then this change would satisfy all players who want her not to be touched, yet also satisfy those who want her to not "kill everything".
7. "I've explained before the problems with making everyone as powerful as her which you seemed unable to explain away so it has failed as an effective option. " This quote here implies that I want other warframes to be as powerful as saryn. At least that's how I took it.
8. Sure she uses viral and corrosive but to this extent eximus and those are the examples because this is her thread. I gave an example of how to counter people with playstyles using corrosive and viral, hitting saryn in the process. This is a specific example and it can be replicated for other warframes and playstyles. It may hit her but it's not limited to her.
9. Solo play isn't important to consider outside of is it playable. I cannot be more blunt then that.
10. I didn't mention stuff to bring the changes with because were talking balance. Not reward. I also beleive DE can do just fine creating rewards and content given that it's their job to do so.
11. I've already explained why your explanation on DPS killing CC is flawed. I can admit it may be a small part of it but it's not necessary to correct. I explained that if DPS is removed people will just go to tanks because nothing calls for CC warframes. Even people who are respected for their knowledge of the game, trib and rahetalious said that CC isn't called for with mission objectives.
12. I didn't remove it from my post? I'm assuming you're talking about ESO, Defense, Exterminate, Survival, Disruption, and Excavation being good for saryn and good for rewards? sort of lost on this part.
13. Obviously domination doesn't equate to relevance. But she was forged for ESO and refined in it's systems. ESO launched update 22.18 of April 20th 2018 and shortly after update 22.20 of May 17th 2018 launched with S3.0 so it stands to reason she was custom crafted for ESO. Especially since this was the newest game mode and feedback of saryn and ESO mixed together so she was even refined for ESO. her post was even called "Beasts of Sanctuary Update 22.20 Saryn Revisited. If DE, and this is a big if, If DE did not make Saryn for ESO then they're incompetent and completely forgot how content plays into other content. If it also was an unintended fix why wait until now to fix it, or are they that lazy?
14. In lame mans terms yes it's half of it, but i've thrown more ideas out there. Reworked mission types and new mission types which don't feature Saryn favored content served to her on a silver platter.
15. So your idea is to bury saryn. then move to mirage, tear her apart like her previous incarnation, then kick volt's crotch? And once that's done and people start moving to tanks the cycle starts again. Then we eat inaros, nerf wukong again cause he really needs it, throw acid on rhino's iron skin, and etc etc. That many reworks sounds like it'll take years and not a year. Nerfing over and over will only push players from the game.

My points in order follow your points in order, it should be easy to keep track of. 

1. so you've said it, just not expressly here in response to this request, despite it supposedly being against the rules, and i'm going to assume won't restate it despite clearly nothing happening from it being said here, and this is just convoluted. i give, if you won't explain directly i'll just take it as false/wrong at this point, i'm not here for mental gymnastics. 
2. it's not, but they shouldn't be doing it on the premise of preserving a small number of imbalanced frames, otherwise they'll be going back soon enough again. 
3. so long as the power she exerts can cause a negative impact on design aspects of the game she will remain an issue no matter how many loops you try to hop through to distort that reality. again explain why its okay for her to invalidate engagement in co-op, or otherwise you have no point. 
4. You failed to show it as a particular enemy to even Limbo because you didn't present full circumstances, but that's still off topic and no need to carry further. On topic, she is countered to effectively the same level of effect as CC frames, as explained numerous times, what keeps her over the top like any other nuke is the damage numbers and range of said damage being so overwhelming alternative routes remain unnecessary/undesired. lowering nukes lowers that disparity. 
5. k
6. Direct or Indirect it's still power changes, I don't care for the semantics and in the long haul I don't think anyone does, what ends up there is what ends up there. And for Saryn, either way she is being made weaker, your method just seems so unnecessary clogged with bandaids to her issues that would only splinter out to affect other things, and why you think that ideal I still do not understand. 
7. It does not if you understand the context of the conversation, which I would hope you would since I assume you have been fully reading my responses before responding. otherwise, they're all recorded to revisit. 
8. Non-point since you already agreed it isn't feasible to do that practice on a frame by frame basis. 
9. So it doesn't factor in solo play then after all?
10. We're talking the entire structure to make whatever dream state you keep piping about.
11. And I explained how patently false that is as proven by the games own history, which is about as objective as one can get on game design impacts. 
12.  The duplicate responses, you removed them from the initial post after I pointed them out. 
13. She was not forged for ESO, in fact ESO didn't even exist when her rework was worked on, as stated by Pablo the creator of said rework. It also should be known because it prompted this entire topic, that Pablo doesn't approve of how she interacts with ESO even. No she was not remotely made with the intent for her level of dominance. She was also reworked like what, twice after her release almost immediately? It's very explicit her impact wasn't what they wanted it to be. In regards to why it takes so long for them to change her again? Only people internal to the company would know. It could be anything, from just hesitance to deal with how toxic some of the community gets over nerfs, to being occupied with other projects, to just not being sure what direction to go next with the frame if they change it. 
14. You haven't explained how they'd be reworked, or what designs for new missions. 
15. My idea is to rebalance Saryn to a more even playfield with most of the game, and repeat the cycle with the most notable overperformers until we have a more consistent state of balance for the game, which is what the game always should have done, and then from there life gets easier since DE only have to deal with more minute balancing changes. The biggest issue with DE's balance is that they let it slip so far without trying to keep things in line or even set a line, and that's what has lead to this whole mess of what is and isn't viable. Stabilizing things works, that's what made the melee rework go over so well, even if the highest performers had to get trimmed to make it work. Also seeing as we only have like 3 or 4 explicit over performers, and they only need tuning not full redesigns, no that would not take a long time to do. It certainly wouldn't even take a fraction as long as redesigning enemy encounters, creating new missions types, and rebalancing existing missions types, then dealing with all the weapon and frame rebalancing that would also be impacted by such large changes. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Cubewano

[Kaotyke]

This is still going...

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

12 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

If 80% of your game's population is using only one or three frames out of the 40, then there is a problem. Either with the game itself, or the frame. Can you imagine ANY other mmo, fps, multiplayer game where everyone only used the same three or four characters out of the entire roster? Especially one as large as Warframe's.

You missed the whole point here. It's not saying 80% is exclusively using those frames, it's saying 80% is using things that include those frames. Which is a good thing.

On the previous devstream where she was alone [DE]Rebecca shared usage stats for the frames  and Saryn was only "high" usage at high Mastery ranks, and even there she was less than 10% of total usage. Mirage (I think? Maybe Mesa? The colours are hard to read.) is the most used frame and even she's only like ~15%ish. All of the frame usage stats are totally reasonable.

And you mean like DotA 2 and Smite, where with any given update certain heroes and team comps are meta and are used almost exclusively while you'll very rarely see anything else, typically only from more novice or casual players? I'd hazard a guess and say that even at high MRs the frame spread is probably better on Warframe than most other games based on the stats they released...

Edited December 9, 2019 by (NSW)Sniperfox47

[BRZZAFK]

1小时前 , (NSW)Sniperfox47 说:

and even there she was less than 10% of total usage.

isn't there like 42 frame? it should be like around 2.5% right? this chart doesn't seen balance to me

the pink one probabaly is inaros. a warframe dont rely on ablity at all. great meta

Edited December 9, 2019 by BRZZAFK

[Dark_Horse89]

On 2019-12-03 at 5:30 AM, --C--Nehra said:

Why do people have issues with other people who solo ESO with Saryn?

 I have the same question. also why many people ask to nerf something strong and why not to buff something weak? people dont want to have a nice easy and funny mission, even when you play solo or co op? tbh by my opinion i believe this is problems from people who like to play it pro in other players, and they wanna call you noob or they cannot accept if someone else with stronger warframe in mission do more kills. For god sake is just a game. and for me games exist to give us some fun in our hard real life. By my opinion Warframe must give you the feeling that you are something overpowered. if we nerf everything whats the point to play it then? 😢

[Dark_Horse89]

On 2019-12-03 at 6:36 PM, -HoB-AngelofRevenge said:

I dont think that saryn need any changes as it is

i agreed. saryn is my favorite warframe and with this rework i love it more than ever. i believe saryn not need any changes. By my opinion i need buff in weaker warframes and not to nerf the strongest

[Aldain]

Just chiming in to say that that is the worst chart/graph I have ever seen in my entire life.

28 pie charts would have been more effective than that thing. What are you doing DE?

Edited December 9, 2019 by Aldain

[(NSW)Sniperfox47]

7 hours ago, BRZZAFK said:

isn't there like 42 frame? it should be like around 2.5% right? this chart doesn't seen balance to me

the pink one probabaly is inaros. a warframe dont rely on ablity at all. great meta

No game will ever be perfectly balanced. In CS go you'll always have your AWPs and your Scouts that see higher usage, on DotA you'll always have your Meta heroes, in Destiny you've got Hunter which is a more popular than others.

No game will have balanced usage because people have preferences and because there will *always* be a META that people gravitate towards.

And if that's Inaros then PC players pick totally different frames than console because I have seen as many Inaros players in my time on Switch as I have Zephyr players (that is to say not a lot) and none of them low MR because of the quest he's behind.

About the only place I see him consistently is arbitrations and that's because, like Saryn and ESO, that's a game mode that caters to the specific skill set he has (alongside some other frames like Wukong, Rhino, Chroma, etc.)

And for the record something being low skill is not a bad thing. Warframe is a PVE game where the challenge is what you make it. If you find Inaros boring to play, play something more fun. I personally find Titania modded with a crud-ton of bullet jump mods to be a blast to play so she's the frame I use for spy missions. Is she the easiest frame to play for them? No, I need to actually think about the vaults, but I have a lot more fun with her. For players who are less skilled it's okay to have an option like Ivara/Loki/Limbo that enables them to complete the mission. It doesn't take anything away from you for them to be able to have fun too.

Edited December 9, 2019 by (NSW)Sniperfox47

[(NSW)Badger]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

 

 I have seen as many Inaros players in my time on Switch as I have Zephyr players (that is to say not a lot) and none of them low MR because of the quest he's behind.

 I see Zephyr Prime tornados all the time in defense missions. I don't see too many Inaros players, though. In fact I hardly use mine, and I've not used Rhino in some time. I would love to see the Usage breakdown for Switch. I see a lot of Saryns, but most of those don't seem to be modded properly. 

[Skaleek]

Inaros sees a lot of play in arbitration, naturally. I can't believe DE released that impossible to read graph instead of just giving us the numbers.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Skaleek

[-HoB-AngelofRevenge]

50 minutes ago, (NSW)Badger said:

 I see Zephyr Prime tornados all the time in defense missions. I don't see too many Inaros players, though. In fact I hardly use mine, and I've not used Rhino in some time. I would love to see the Usage breakdown for Switch. I see a lot of Saryns, but most of those don't seem to be modded properly. 

thing is that saryn can be moded for lets say tanky, nuke or something in bteetween. I can see that ppl use nuke build a lot in ext or def, to clear it faster. but that is only for those missions. if you go nuke build than you dont have much of survivability. I would like to see full umbral build on saryn, but that umbra forma is issue xD

Edited December 9, 2019 by -HoB-AngelofRevenge

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

10 hours ago, (NSW)Sniperfox47 said:

You missed the whole point here. It's not saying 80% is exclusively using those frames, it's saying 80% is using things that include those frames. Which is a good thing.

On the previous devstream where she was alone [DE]Rebecca shared usage stats for the frames  and Saryn was only "high" usage at high Mastery ranks, and even there she was less than 10% of total usage. Mirage (I think? Maybe Mesa? The colours are hard to read.) is the most used frame and even she's only like ~15%ish. All of the frame usage stats are totally reasonable.

And you mean like DotA 2 and Smite, where with any given update certain heroes and team comps are meta and are used almost exclusively while you'll very rarely see anything else, typically only from more novice or casual players? I'd hazard a guess and say that even at high MRs the frame spread is probably better on Warframe than most other games based on the stats they released...

 

23 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

"80% of the game DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU BECAUSE THEY PLAY THOSE FRAMES AND ENJOY THEMSELVES"

 

23 hours ago, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

"if DE starts breaking down all the frames that are popular, this is only going to go one way

all the other garbage frames will become better but the overall pleasure people have in this game goes down the drain and people will leave the garbage of a game this mess has become by then"

Seems to me he was talking strictly about frames. That chart is really messy, so I could be reading it wrong, but when I compare it to last year's numbers, it seems not much has changed. Loki P, Mesa and Saryn P are still the most used frames for mid to high MR players. Which correlates with what I have mostly seen in game. I don't think I've ever come across a Saryn P/Saryn that was lower than MR 12. It's hard to argue that only late game players or vets are using these frames, since it's very easy to just power your way to MR 20 or above, and we don't know just how many high MR players there are compared to lower ranks.

And all points aside, the 80% number seems incredibly hyperbolic.

I couldn't find much data for Dota2, but the reports I found for Smite were...Conflicting to say the least. It reminded me alot of what Warframe has going on. Some people were decrying their new updates as the worst thing ever, while others were adamant the game was at it's peak. I'm willing to guess that if there's an unbreakable meta, in any game with dozens of different characters to choose from, then there must be some underlying balance issues, that may not be so apparent. I find it very unlikely that, in a population of atleast 500k 80% of the community will all enjoy the same playstyle presented by three or four characters.

[(PSN)chubbslawson]

On 2019-12-08 at 12:01 PM, (PS4)The1stAzrael said:

If 80% of your game's population is using only one or three frames out of the 40, then there is a problem. Either with the game itself, or the frame. Can you imagine ANY other mmo, fps, multiplayer game where everyone only used the same three or four characters out of the entire roster? Especially one as large as Warframe's.

It could be that the majority of the frames and weapons they put out truly sucks compared to the few that they get right. So instead of fixing the suck ones they make the fun ones suck too 

[(PSN)The1stAzrael]

38 minutes ago, (PS4)chubbslawson said:

It could be that the majority of the frames and weapons they put out truly sucks compared to the few that they get right. So instead of fixing the suck ones they make the fun ones suck too 

I find it hard to believe that the majority of the other weapons and frames were truly bad until Saryn 4.0(?) was released in early 2018-late 2017. If that were the case, then wouldn't the game have died much sooner? After all, one of the quickest ways to kill interest in a game, is too stock it with uninteresting, bad, poorly designed, etc characters.