The Simulacrum, hated by [DE]Scott? Here's a thought...

[DeeDeetheSpy]

So I was listening to the video below posted by Tact Potato and was having a thought about it. In it, Scott said his biggest thing about it was that Content creators and players rush to it when there is new gear. I know we are expecting a new room to $&*^ around with in there but here is my thought: give it a couple taps more to the Captura. So this way I can put those tile scenes to use to change enviroments to test in  and content creators can show off in a better looking area than just a grey room. The other thing is set up some enemy spawn teams preconfig to test against. 

So I can select "Grineer Crewship crew" and it will put in a pilot, captain, and some of the other guys that would show up in the crew ship to get an idea of how we will hold up against that or affect that.

 

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Imho I'd just get rid of the simulacrum room and rework captura in order to offer advanced simulacrum capabilities. You would be able to choose the tileset, the enemies, their level and their behaviour. All at the same time you'd be able to access the captura tools.

[kyori]

The room is for us to test how our build fair against whatever level the desired enemies we want to test on. I think the only thing lacking is that it didn't allow us to 'simulate' having forma in our build, to let us know how many forma is needed before we forma our gear. etc

I'm wondering why the sudden rise of fuss about the room? Is it because some S#&$-stirring-attention-grabbing-content-creators have nothing to do while waiting for Scarlet Spear?

[LSG501]

IMO Scott doesn't like the simulcrum because it allows players who play the game properly outside of the dev sandbox to see how good/bad something is really easily....

There is nothing inherently wrong with the simulcrum, the issue is more to do with the way the devs do updates and reworks imo.

[AnuKaneDai]

That's why I dont like some youtuber.
They just post things to make view, using trick to catch your eyes with irrelevent polemic.

And Actually there is no reason to hate Simulacrum, because everyone know that the results arnt relevant at all.
A weapon that you test against grineer gunner 170 could be useless, but so awesome to play on regular 30-40 missions.
And even in the grineer faction there is somes enemy with different armor or resistances.

So simulacrum is good for some try, but you can only validate on a regular mission.

The only things that simulacrum help is to get that lvl100+ ennemy to try your gear.
So you dont have to spend 1h on survival to find somes.

[8faiNt]

yeah...

I guess DE only wants yes-man people and fan boys.

not surprised for some reason.

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by 8faiNt

[Marine027]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb AnuKaneDai:

That's why I dont like some youtuber.
They just post things to make view, using trick to catch your eyes with irrelevent polemic.

And Actually there is no reason to hate Simulacrum, because everyone know that the results arnt relevant at all.
A weapon that you test against grineer gunner 170 could be useless, but so awesome to play on regular 30-40 missions.
And even in the grineer faction there is somes enemy with different armor or resistances.

So simulacrum is good for some try, but you can only validate on a regular mission.

The only things that simulacrum help is to get that lvl100+ ennemy to try your gear.
So you dont have to spend 1h on survival to find somes.

You can't simply simulate a mission, so many factors come in, lets take the Bramma as example, hard to use in small maps, enemy combination, eximus auras, what frame you use, what faction, etc. To many things you can't just put in there, all it does is how is the damage against this enemy type on this enemy level, nothing more, mission itself are where you test it, mission succeds, you done something right i say, having trouble, you done something wrong maybe, simple as that.

Only fun i have with the Simulacrum is, letting enemys fight each other like the Rathuum Grineer fighting the Index Corpus. Only wihs we could add Bosses finally to see how they would stand against each other. (I really want real invasions happening life with factions invading and bosses actually leading the charge. 😀)

[ShortCat]

32 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

IMO Scott doesn't like the simulcrum because it allows players who play the game properly outside of the dev sandbox to see how good/bad something is really easily....

There is nothing inherently wrong with the simulcrum, the issue is more to do with the way the devs do updates and reworks imo.

Exactly my thoughts.

@AnuKaneDai & @Marine027 that is some high quality nonsense.

[Voltage]

The reason people use that room is because we have no high level missions out of the gate. People aren't going to spend an hour+ to reach a level you can reach in a few clicks at Mastery Rank 28. Give us high level and meaningful content that starts at level 200, and people will hardly use the simulacrum outside of testing a build before jumping into said content. Also, more interesting enemies would help too. It probably bothers Scott that someone slaps Viral on half the weapons available in the game and melt the tissue paper enemy scaling that we have since the mainline.

Edited March 24, 2020 by Voltage

[Redfeather75]

2 hours ago, AnuKaneDai said:

That's why I dont like some youtuber.
They just post things to make view, using trick to catch your eyes with irrelevant polemic.

That's exactly how it looks to me every day I go on youtube and see new warframe videos with the simulacrum. I once watched a 'review' of exodia epidemic that was so negative about it and it all took place in the simulacrum and not once did they actually use it properly.

[Steel_Rook]

Wow, the salt in this thread is real...

The Simulacrum is theory-crafting. That's the long and short of it. It's a glorified calculator which makes it easy to try "Hey, I have X amount of Y damage and fight Z amount of UVW armour, what damage numbers would I get?" There's nothing fundamentally wrong with a tool like that - it helps us make informed decisions and quickly compare different options. However, the Simulacrum is not representative of the actual game, not even remotely. Even ignoring the fact that people seem to always test against enemies well in excess of what you fight in the actual game, enemy behaviour differs DRASTICALLY outside the Simulacrum. The real game also has a myriad of objectives, even if they do often break down to "kill enemies as fast as you can."

Personally, I see YouTube creators and forum posters claiming "This is awesome!" and "This sucks!" by jumping in the Simulacrum as not too dissimilar from people who post about how good or bad an update purely based on the patch notes. Play the game - the actual game - try it out, then talk about it. I don't know that this justifies HATING the Simulacrum and I don't think Scott's hatred was directed towards the concept of it. However, there's an old saying: A little information is often worse than no information. It tricks people into thinking they're informed when they aren't. The Simulacrum is a useful tool if you use it correctly, but it can give you all sorts of bad data just as well.

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

Monster Hunter World has a training room with a test dummy to whack at. Hell, even a game like Elsword has a training room to test out stuff. The simulacrum is a great to place to have in warframe. I'll take immortal stationary targets over the sheer amount of scanned enemies anyday.

[LuckyCharm]

To be fair... I dont really care what the room looks like more than how it functions. My dream simulacrum is actually just a huge empty box. No holes in the floor. No fancy obstacles. Just an empty box. 

One thing that would tremendously help though are immortal target dummies you can set level/armor type on so you can test your weapon damage on without needing to spawn a new thing to shoot at every 2s. Been asking for those since the simulacrums creation. Being able to continuously shoot the same unmoving enemy would help gague your dps spread a whole lot more than one constantly jiggling or getting knocked around

[GPrime96]

3 hours ago, Voltage said:

The reason people use that room is because we have no high level missions out of the gate. People aren't going to spend an hour+ to reach a level you can reach in a few clicks at Mastery Rank 28. Give us high level and meaningful content that starts at level 200, and people will hardly use the simulacrum outside of testing a build before jumping into said content. Also, more interesting enemies would help too. 

^^So much this

[(PSN)thegarada]

From my understanding, what DE does not like, is that it tends to be what most Youtubers put in their streams. This is a problem though is lack of high level content. I do not think anyone would be interested in watching level 50 mobs get wacked. I can do that with a broom stick. 

[(PSN)jaggerwanderer]

You can't use high level enemies as an excuse for making content base on the simularcrum. Sorties have high level enemeis to try it on but no one test their build against that type of content. Even if DE allow us to set a "Hard" mode that makes enemies over level 100. People will still use the simularcrum to test or show off builds. The place is a control enviorment. Very little factors influence performance. A standardilze test.

[CortexKiller]

Not been playing since December.  I've used the Simulacrum to stress test my favourite setups and mod combos.  For those of you who cite that it is not the same as the game "proper"... -golfclap- well done, not sure anyone actually maintained that it is/was.  If you think it is giving you erroneous info - take the enemies off "pause".

Scott needs to chill out and learn perspective and not to throw his toys out of the pram.  Lets contrast a few other games.

Apex Legends: When weapon changes occur several vids will get base data from firing range and compare to live fire.  This is the same as simulacrum.

Destiny 2:  New weapons or patches with siginificant changes - youtubers will simply do breakdowns of numbers, damage etc.  This is tantamount the same as the simulacrum videos.

Why is this format so prevalent across games? Because players and content creators are looking for confirmed stats/performance and having a controlled enviroment/test in which to do so is required.  These kind of videos aren't examples of actual game play nor would they be mistaken as such.  Anyone who watches a WF vid weapon breakdown in the Simulacrum is surely not going to think that is all there is to the game and *that* seemed to be the source of Scott's ire.

Scott: if you are concerned that content creators are not showing off your lovely tilesets, gamemodes, skins is because the content has been thinner than weak tepid gravy.  Kindly look at enemy behaviour/ai/pathing,  eg Destiny an elite enemy who is weakened, will back off to cover rather than push mindlessly to the player. Boss behaviours beyond dmg invuln phases would be nice, give them block's, counters to Warframes, make us "work" for it. Do that and you might see actual content vids go up.

Edited March 24, 2020 by CortexKiller

[SenorClipClop]

7 hours ago, LSG501 said:

There is nothing inherently wrong with the simulcrum

Yeah, Scott didn't say there was anything inherently wrong with the Simulacrum. Did you even listen to the interview?

7 hours ago, LSG501 said:

IMO Scott doesn't like the simulcrum because it allows players who play the game properly outside of the dev sandbox to see how good/bad something is really easily....

Your opinion? Who needs your opinion when they're literally spelling it out in the video. Scott literally says, he gets that people use the testing room for testing. It's useful for comparing builds, loadouts and situations easily, and that's fine. What frustrates Scott is that the vast majority of content creator videos are just humming and hawing over numbers stacked against frozen enemies in a gray room. And then people watch these videos and start treating Simulacrum as how the whole game plays.

Or basically, better content creation could use more actual playtesting and demonstration, not just watching numbers tick on target dummies. Dat S#&$ boring.

[LSG501]

10 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Yeah, Scott didn't say there was anything inherently wrong with the Simulacrum. Did you even listen to the interview?

 

yes I did...shocking I know but my opinion was given after I'd seen it...

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, LSG501 said:

yes I did

Scott: My opinion is X.

LSG: I think his opinion is Y!

Ace detective over here.

[DrakeWurrum]

Or just give us high level missions. Content creators would gladly jump into a level 120 mission instead. They only have so much time to spare for making video content, though.

[LSG501]

2 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

Scott: My opinion is X.

LSG: I think his opinion is Y!

Ace detective over here.

You do realise there is more than just one video that we can make an opinion from right....  but then that wouldn't allow you to be a white knight for DE...

[DrakeWurrum]

7 hours ago, LSG501 said:

IMO Scott doesn't like the simulcrum because it allows players who play the game properly outside of the dev sandbox to see how good/bad something is really easily....

There is nothing inherently wrong with the simulcrum, the issue is more to do with the way the devs do updates and reworks imo.

I was seeing that said a lot in the YouTube comments, and... I don't think it's wrong.

But the stated opinion by Scott is valid, imo. There's so much more to the game than raw DPS on a training dummy. He was also quite right that, you know... you're not going to get a group of 10 level 170 bombards in one place like that.

[LSG501]

32 minutes ago, DrakeWurrum said:

I was seeing that said a lot in the YouTube comments, and... I don't think it's wrong.

But the stated opinion by Scott is valid, imo. There's so much more to the game than raw DPS on a training dummy. He was also quite right that, you know... you're not going to get a group of 10 level 170 bombards in one place like that.

Well there's another viewpoint over him wanting us to show it in different settings....

Give easier access to higher enemies (as you said) and/or give them new content to show the new stuff off in.... it's not the content creators fault if there's nothing 'new' to show. 

Plus the simulcrum is a 'fixed' setting so it can have like for like testing.

[(PSN)GEN-Son_17]

8 hours ago, 8faiNt said:

yeah...

I guess DE only wants yes-man people and fan boys.

not surprised for some reason.

 

Where did you get that from exactly? You didn't watch the vid then? 

DE Scott's issue with the room is that, because it's a basic test room, the viewers are seeing the full game in action. He wants to show the sites and sounds the employees worked so hard on. Nothing "yes-man" about that at all. Man, the gaming community has really become the talking point lemmings generation.