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Dev Workshop: Healing Defendable Targets


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if this change to vazarin holds, can i change to be a ''savannah'' focus user? because, i can't take another tree

i'm a vazarin player from the day the lotus told me ''this is who you are''

i didn't picked it based on a guide, or a wiki, or even another tenno, i picked it because "... we protected the innocent."

The second dream marked the way i play the game

when the trees were ''regrown'' from the root up, i could have change to everybody's favorite zenurik, functionally it was a sound choice, i'm no farmer for materials, and having a tool to avoid unnecesary spends of materials needed for energy pads was a tempting choice, but i stick to my tree no matter how hard the wind shaked it, because on the true core of the tree, defense was alive and well, giving my fellow squad members brief respites on hard fought battles when we where overwhelmed by being the one that stopped to ''have fun'' to shield a fallen comrade with my own energy, and nurse the objectives back up, even when the cause of the damages that could have broken them were my own confused squad

 

 

is sad to see that this tree is gonna die, and taking refuge behind it is gonna mean recieving a shot to the heart through the hole where the core of it used to be, so, if the change sticks, let me clean the land where it once a mighty tree lived, to be able to see the shots coming from afar because nothing is gonna stand there to help us

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47 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

Except you're solely using one focus school. Now you don't need to. That's the options you mention in your post.

How many focus schools are there in the game Vs how many frames there are ?

What gives more options ? Protective dash is a tool in a game with unbalanced scaling. I see little value in other focus schools, if it's not a niche gimmick it can be substituted using the gear wheel or a mod. Taking away a tool and be given a flat value in return is absurd and insulting. But PC players are used to be insulted so I guess it's fine.  

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I like the overall idea of the proposed changes, however I think vazarin dash got hit a bit too hard. Give it damage reduction on the defense target instead of removing the invuln completely. Number caps on the heals sound a bit low but I guess the numbers arent supposed to be final.

Magus Repair is also a thing to heal allies, can we get some minor healing capabilities for defense targets aswell?

How do you apply Wisp motes to a defense target? 

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So literally no abilities will be able to heal a proportion of object health instead of a fixed amount anymore, meaning literally every form of healing will see diminishing returns on higher level missions. Is that the intent?

Edited by pebblepossum
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2 hours ago, zakaryx said:

 

Exactly this. When you have 500 health heals but a 50000 health objective you’re still doing nothing. And you see those often at higher levels (Sorties, Arbitration’s). I don’t mind it not being a % anymore but do have it scale with objective health to an extent.

@[DE]Rebeccacanwe get some response on this?

Edited by RWBY-WhiteRose
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What about Harrow's Covenant? Will that get 50% damage reduction on defense targets? Did that not make the cut because it's full Invulnerability, or did it get forgotten?

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I knew Gara was going to get screwed when all this BS began. I really don't believe protective dash needs to be nerfed that bad. Maybe just take away the invulnerability and replace it with DR on objectives, but keep the percentage healing. Honestly, all of those healing numbers seem way too low as well.

Edited by Snaccine
a word
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2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Now that that we have reviewed it, we feel like healing these objectives can serve well as an alternative or a complement to the commonly used defensive abilities, such as Frost's Snow Globe, Gara's Mass Vitrify, Limbo's Cataclysm. 100% heals is not what we want to do, so we are instead trying to allow the effects but adjusted as to not trivialize the game modes.

I think this is great. It is a logical step and adds more possibilities and variance and thus broadens the game. And it is very "DE" 🙂, which is positively refreshing and maybe even a bit hopeful ("Scarlet Spear ate my hope", or has been gnawing on it, anyway).

I also think that healing a percentage of a fixed value (like warframe health) is fine, and healing a fixed value of something that scales is fine, but healing a percentage of something that is scaling (without limit) is not logical. In other words: an effect/ability healing "half your warframe health" is quite logical, even if the hp varies between warframes and depending on builds. But healing 500 hp of excavator health at round X and 5000 hp at round Y in the same mission is simply not logical (neither is excavator health scaling in-mission, if truth be told, but that is another question).

The most important thing for me is that the possibility of using many different ways to heal a def objective will allow for counter-acting the "steady decline"-syndrome. Instead of either protecting it "totally" or just playing until the health of defense objective gets low enough the player(s) can now actively affect what is going on (with the actual objective of the mission). And that is a good thing. 

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect

I'll get my flowers ready to lay on Vazarin's coffin, sad to see you go old friend. Vazarin was actually the first school that I levelled up when I was still focus school farming. While I may not use vazarin all that much today, I knew that its Protective Dash ability was quite useful and could be relied upon for various situations. As strange as this sounds, I appreciated that I could combo Vazarin's protective dash with Ivara (my main) and actually enjoy doing some defense missions with this set-up. Why? Because I like to play the game with my most favourite frame and I hate to be pigeon-holed/forced into playing some other frame because they are the "de-facto choice" for that mission type. Ironically, Vazarin's protective dash gave me a realistic chance to play with my Ivara on "defense-like" missions. Vazarin's protective dash gave me flexibility with my set-ups with Ivara. Giving me a chance to enjoy playing the game with my favourite frame rather than be forced to pick a defense frame. So much for flexibility and variety DE.

Edited by BlindStalker
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I'd really like to ask if you all would reconsider the heal rates for the HOTs; as many have said the no-stack and no-scaling healing is going to just not ... work, especially as endless missions ramp up.  I've been a Vazarin main since TSD/TWW and this is just gonna suck, hard, for anyone trying to throw a heal on a LV100 defense objective or for those doing high-level play solo.

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Boy, that's a lot to take in.

While the overall goal of allowing most healing abilities to interact with defense targets is good, there are a few issues I have with the current implementation:

  1. Low Heal over Time Values
  2. Low Damage Reduction Values
  3. Vazarin Nerf

Low Heal over Time Values

A phrase repeated 5 times in this post is "500 Health over 5 Seconds", which translates into 100 Health per Second. This seems to be the currently proposed "cap" to healing objectives and is incredibly low, as I shall demonstrate by comparing this to the health totals of Defense Objectives currently in game.

Loading into the lowest level Defense node on the Star Chart (Lith, Earth) spawned for me a Defense Pod with a total health value of 2750. Healing 100 Health per second on this pod means you would be healing only 3.63% of its health per second... and it looks worse for the top end of Star Chart. Loading into Hydron (which is tied for highest level Defense mission) spawned a pod with its Max HP being 47,630. Applying 100 health per second to this pod would be..... only 0.21% of its max HP per second.... rounded up. And this is only for basic Star Chart missions, this percentage will get even worse when level modifiers such as Fissures are taken into account.

This value is in dire need of an increase. My suggestion would be to apply a healing cap of 5% of Max HP per second to all static defense targets. This would mean that, assuming 0 incoming damage is taken by the objective, it would take up to 20 seconds to fully heal the target. (I would also like to propose 1 exception to this rule, which I will explain later)

Low Damage Reduction Values

While I am in favor of a slight reduction of Max Damage Reduction applying to objectives in exchange for having a variety of sources being able to apply it, I fear that the current values are a bit too harsh. Using Gara's live damage reduction on Splinter Storm as an example, any Gara build worth using will have this set to the cap of 90%, a value certainly in need of reducing. Reducing this to a cap of 50% will translate to a Splinter Storm protected target will go from taking 1/10 of incoming damage to half, 5 times more than what is currently live. I would suggest raising this cap to somewhere in the ballpark of 66%-75%, and if this is too much combined with the new ease of access to healing, we can talk about scaling back from there.

Quick side note; Seeing Ember's Immolated Radiance augment listed with this cap of 50% DR on targets is hilarious, as it cannot even reach this value. The augment does not scale with Ability Strength, meaning the maximum reduction it can provide to allies is 45%, and that's assuming you're sitting in max overheat, which you should never do. I'd take this as a sign that the augment needs to be buffed, but that may be a discussion for another day.

Vazarin Nerf

Oh dear, this is the big one... When it was first revealed a review was being done on Defense healing, my thoughts immediately turned to a review and subsequent nerf to Protective Dash, though I'd by lying if I said there wasn't good reason for it. I'll start by saying I am in favor of removing its ability to make targets invincible; having merely to Void Dash into the target every 5 seconds to make it completely immune is absolutely overpowered. That said... The healing effect change is a colossal nerf; using the Hydron pod with 47,630 Health as an example again, and using the 500 health over 5 seconds cap (aka 100 HP/s), it would go from healing this objective for 5,715 health per second to 100... 57 times less. And worse yet, this would remove what I would argue is the only use case of running any Focus School other than Zenurik in general play. I would propose instead allowing Protective Dash to heal objectives for 15%-20% of their max HP per second (this is the exception to the 5% cap on abilities I mentioned earlier), and more importantly, launching a review of all Focus Schools for balancing.

Let me be absolutely clear with that last point: I am not just calling for a massive nerf to Zenurik. While it is highly likely Zenurik needs to be toned down and perhaps some of its abilities given to other schools (giving Inner Might to Naramon comes to mind), I would argue that by doing only that, using Focus at all outside of hyper-specific examples such as Eidolons would be next to irrelevant, especially with the massive grind that comes with accessing the Focus abilities in the first place. I believe ALL Focus Schools outside of Zenurik are in dire need of buffs, and given the recent Warframe: Revised update already helped fix long-standing issues with the game, now would be a perfect time to do it.

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1st Murex Raid -> Scarlet Spear relay -> subsequent Murex Raid resulted in Magus Lockdown not working. Please don’t do that. Make it work for all Murex Raid trips again. Thanks. 

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So are these changes only affecting defense targets or are they complete overhaul changes??? basically 1 skill having two affects which is...weird.


 

Volt - Capacitance

Grants shields based on 3% of damage dealt

Capped at 250 shields, no overshields

On live does nothing

 

 


So is this a overall nerf to volt or does this only mean he can now heal defense targets up to 250 shields?

Will I still be able to regen shields and get a overshield like I currently can in the game or are you nerfing his ability into the ground again?   Volt is my favorite frame in the game and you keep nerfing him. When gauss came out you made it so he no longer keeps momentum when turning so he slows to a crawl and losing your speed and you now have to gradually build up speed just to effectively use his speed ability and it'll constantly be reduced to a crawl if you have to turn,take a hard landing,or slow down for a brief moment. You completely crippled his ability to move fast just to make gauss more appealing and it sucks and was completely unnecessary.

 

 

 

Vazarin - Protective Dash

5 seconds invulnerability

60% Heal over 5 seconds

No invulnerability

Heal for 500 over 5 seconds, can’t stack

Works at full effect


If you're nerfing vazarin into the ground so people won't use it anymore then how about refunding focus spent on the class?  You buffed defense targets to have scaling hp so 500 hp on a 50k defense target will amount to nothing while enemy damage is also scaling. It needs to be a % based heal to be useful on more than warframes and defense objectives higher than level 50. A heal over time is also boring,nothing says boring more than having to wait and wait and wait for something in the game like a gradual heal with such a low amount of flat hp healed.

Do I still get the 60% heal and 5 seconds of invulnerability or that affect completely removed from the game now?


If all abilities are staying the same but we are getting nerfed usage on defense targets but get to affect defense targets then,awesome! and rip vaz dash. It's a sacrifice i'm willing to make for the ability to heal defense targets and buff defense targets with frames

Edited by wizardeiges
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the only place i can see this being a negative is in excavation. even with scaling health.

and in excavation, its going to be a massive negative.

 

cant wait to try it out though and hope for the best.

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