Riven disposition changes based on popularity is wrong

[Ghogiel]

5 minutes ago, JohnKable said:

its pretty clear its MOSTLY a popularity contest. The fact that a few weapons you dont expect to see touched make the list doesnt mean that those are not popular.
They change dozens of rivens per category of weapons, I coul easily say what are the most 5 used primaries, but i couldnt really tell whats ranked 22th, can you? they can and likely act accordingly. all you see is a weapon that you didnt think is one of the most popular being touched.

The example of rakta dark dagger is not a good one, because some youtubers popularized a bit in a very specific time frame (shield gating update) and it actually saw quite a rise in popularity. For a good week ive played with dozens of people with that equipped.

Sure they also have some kind of internal power ranking (its pretty easy math to determine what weapons are just better on paper) and sure that does have an impact. but 90% is still popularity based

You have no way to decouple popularity with position on the internal power ranking as you have access to neither.

Things might just be popular because they are powerful. In fact popularity is about the only metric we know of on the rankings.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Ghogiel

[Aldain]

Rivens were a mistake~ That nobody wants to admit~

Because like most things~ Ninety percent of them are...[rhyme redacted]~

[JohnKable]

3 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

You have no way to decouple popularity with position on the internal power ranking as you have access to neither.

Things might just be popular because they are powerful. In fact popularity is about the only metric we know of on the rankings.

A good glimpse on internal power rankings are the MR requirements for weapons. Just saying, from the looks of it its still pretty much based on popularity, there are few instances where there is any doubt. For sure popularity is a major factor, and as you say the only factor we know about

[Ghogiel]

Just now, JohnKable said:

A good glimpse on internal power rankings are the MR requirements for weapons. Just saying, from the looks of it its still pretty much based on popularity, there are few instances where there is any doubt. For sure popularity is a major factor, and as you say the only factor we know about

Dark dagger dispos getting buffed when you saw an uptick in popularity makes no sense if it was just based on usage. :shrug: We'll just have to disagree on what drives the changes. We'll probably agree how ever it works isn't very good lol

[trst]

Because generally speaking if a weapon, or anything else, is use considerably more than other options it's because it's stronger than the rest. This applies to pretty much every game that allows the player to have options regardless of any competitive nature it contains (and even if WF is PvE it does have competitive elements).

Yes the popularity of something doesn't strictly mean that thing is optimal or overpowered but when things are strong then it's more than likely it is popular. And when things are discovered to be powerful for any reason then as that knowledge spreads then it's popularity will only increase.

So yes balancing the strength of Rivens based on popularity is a viable enough metric to determining how strong something is. Sure it's not the best but it still does it's job as well as aiding to their original intention of buffing lower tier weapons. However despite all that it's also not the only metric they claim to use in balancing as has been explained before and explains a number of oddities in past changes.

 

But as for the other thing people constantly mention in anything regarding Riven balancing: manually balancing all weapons is an awful idea. All weapons are not and should not ever all be balanced against eachother. If they were then all weapons would be cosmetics as that is all your choice would come down to. As well since mastery is almost entirely pointless past mr16, the minor increase to daily caps and trace capacity are very minor when you actually compare that to the grind they require and would be even less worth it if every weapon was a copy of eachother. If there is any metric that weapons should be balanced by it should be how difficult they are to acquired and if they're an outlier (too strong/weak) to other weapons in their tier.

Edited April 12, 2020 by trst

[Kamachi]

I refuse to use Rivens, full stop. They are a garbage game mechanic put in as a cover for DE and their horrible weapon balancing or lack thereof. If the Dev team had any mercy they would remove them from the game completely and put in the effort to actually balance weapons somewhat but that is never going to happen. So if like me you find the whole system utterly ridiculous, just don't use them. 

[(PSN)robotwars7]

you know what I think is stupid?

spending ludicrous amounts of plat on a "godroll" Riven for a Meta weapon to make it even more powerful, and then thinking it won't eventually get a nerf, even though DE has stated multiple times that rivens will get changed, and have actually changed some of them on multiple occasions.

now THAT is showing a lack of brain cells.

[kwlingo]

All those who get mad are the one's who spent thousands of plat for a popular riven and now the dispo changed. DE never told you to buy the GOD rolled riven. Maybe if you go the riven yourself from sorties and kuva missions instead of buying everything from Prime access to skins and rivens, you wouldn't be mad about the situation. This has been the game from the beginning, OP weapons always get nerfs.

Honestly when I see players who have less then 400 hours in the game and are at MR 28, I know all they did was spend money and never appropriated the grind of the game in the first place to appreciate content like rivens.

[JohnKable]

55 minutes ago, Ghogiel said:

Dark dagger dispos getting buffed when you saw an uptick in popularity makes no sense if it was just based on usage. :shrug: We'll just have to disagree on what drives the changes. We'll probably agree how ever it works isn't very good lol

Probably the overall usage since melee revamp was almost zero anyways but possibly it has to do with the fact that they just nerfed its  funcionality for shield recharge pretty hard (was pretty necessary since it was broken AF with shield gating). I mean in any case that definitely put a spotlight on the weapon.

we definitely agree it doesn work in a good an healthy way. I would rather see SMALL buffs and nerfs for weapons that this shieeetfest with rivens honestly. I dont invest much in rivens, and i would really like to since i dont have much else to look for in the game

[MPonder]

Rivens would be the next step to invest in improving the power of your account after getting Warframe/Mods/Weapons/etc. They made it almost pointless with this system. I used to spend a lot of time looking for Rivens for weapons that I wanted to play and max their damage. Now I don't even bother anymore.]

Why even bother with farming PL for Rivens, when there is not even a content to use them anymore. Just star chart missions.

Edited April 12, 2020 by MPonder

[kevoisvevo]

3 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:

You like the weapon for its mechanic? Well, I have some good news. Making the numbers on that purple card of yours slightly smaller has absolutely no effect on the weapon’s mechanic. 
 

i don’t understand how people who invest in rivens know that dispo is a thing and STILL get upset when their rivens get dispo’d. Christ.

People like getting what they are paid for up front otherwise it's a loan/rent situation.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

AKVasto and Redeemer were my faves before Rivens, wouldn't matter what "nerf" thier Rivens sustain. They will still be my fave. 

In the end this game is so casual, the ceiling is so low, Rivens are completely unnecessary. Every single weapon can be viable. Rivens don't matter, they are just a unnecessary extra something for a fave weapon, just like Prime frames. 

The only issues I see with them is the players time spent rolling them, and DE not caring about said time spent, but time spent farming for Hema ment something. 

[xXDeadsinxX]

Rivens were honestly a mistake for them to add, and need to be removed. Will it cause an uproar from the community? Absolutely, but it would be a needed and welcome change if you ask me.

[Ham_Grenabe]

5 hours ago, Highresist said:

Fulmin 1/5 is weaker than Bazza Prime 3/5. From a power standpoint, there is no reason to use the Fulmin over the Bazza prime (considering you have rivens for both) and it all comes to popularity instead of performance, which as I said, is dowright spiteful. DE want balance, well they need to hire some people who actually have a consept of that, instead of tinkering with mechanics they don't understant.

So in this case, you don’t like the weapon for its mechanics, just for its output.

[Zimzala]

I think Rivens are one of the most fun and interesting mechanics the game has to offer.

IME this far, the only people that dislike them are the ones that hate for things in the game to change and a changing game is much more fun to me.

I think Rivens add a wonderful flavor mechanic to the game.

Just because some people have no self control and spend money they regret on them is not a fault of the system. only the fault of those who cannot control themselves, IMO.

Rivens keep thing interesting.

[Marvelous_A]

Riven disposition changes based on popularity is wrong

 

FTFY

[Sleepdebt]

disposition needs to go, just set baseline at where 1.0 is now or maybe a little lower, with enough kuva you'll be able to roll a decent riven to complement your weapons strengths or bolster its weaknesses

 

as someone who plays off and on, which i'm sure a lot of people do, i realized that if i make or buy a good riven for a weapon with good/decent disposition, chances are after one of my breaks the riven will be trash because the disposition got nerfed multiple times while i was gone.  so i decided not to bother

[IceColdHawk]

5 hours ago, Aldain said:

Rivens were a mistake~ That nobody wants to admit~

Nobody is going to admit it because people have seen that they had endgame potential. With "had" i mean the time before different dispositions have been introduced. But that got ruined pretty quickly.

7 hours ago, Highresist said:

DE is doing so based on players usege, which is downright spiteful.

I'd like a source on that. Because if that had been true, you would see acrid and stug buffs.

7 hours ago, Highresist said:

Oh, yeah, people who still think the game isn't P2W are delusional. It's not just rivens, it's prime access or a simple platium pruchases in order to buy the latest content on the market.

Yea no, this is not what pay to win means. Prime Accesses are easily grinded within a weekend and can be prepared for with void traces and syndicate points in about 3 months which is a lot of time. Pay to skip is what you're looking for. And that is standard in literally every free to play game.

[SneakyErvin]

7 hours ago, Highresist said:

Oh, yeah, people who still think the game isn't P2W are delusional. It's not just rivens, it's prime access or a simple platium pruchases in order to buy the latest content on the market.

P2W is a term coined to describe scummy cash shop practices in PvP heavy games where you could/can gain direct power through real life money over someone else. It cannot apply to PvE games unless they are highly competative with ladder systems and where the cash shop items are unobtainable through gameplay, so only those that pay real money can push the highest spot on the ladder.

Last I checked we have no competative systems where paying lets us push further than those that play 100% for free.

6 hours ago, Yamazuki said:

Why does Gram Prime need better dispo than Paracesis; Paracesis isn't even the best weapon, or even best melee, to kill Sentients, and that's really the only reason to even use the weapon. 

Because Gram Prime was based on Gram as the starting dispo while Paracesis has it's own. And since this is the first melee dispo change the numbers will move very little. In the future it is very likely that Gram Prime will end up somewhere around the lowest dispo while Paracesis might not go that far down. They have rules regarding how much they drop or increase a dispo rating per pass. I think only one weapon have ever had a drastic decrease, I sadly cant remember which one that was.

[vanaukas]

8 hours ago, Highresist said:

That's the deffinition of P2W. Doing something better or faster than the others, who don't pay. If you argue that isn't the case, than every single mobile or f2p game isn't P2W either, because on paper, you can have the same progress without paying, eventually. Warframe is no exception and is a P2W in its core. It just isn't as outrageous as other titles.

Nah, p2w is all about "winning against someone with items that aren't obtainable without money". That's P2W, not just "getting things faster", "pay to skip" is another bussiness model and that's what is implemented on warframe. There is a huge difference between getting something faster with money rather than farming and getting things with money that improves my gameplay and I cannot farm. 

[Acos]

On 2020-04-12 at 11:35 AM, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

you know what I think is stupid?

spending ludicrous amounts of plat on a "godroll" Riven for a Meta weapon to make it even more powerful, and then thinking it won't eventually get a nerf, even though DE has stated multiple times that rivens will get changed, and have actually changed some of them on multiple occasions.

now THAT is showing a lack of brain cells.

Rivens really should come with a giant screen covering PSA every time you equip them. 

[Diavoros]

14 hours ago, Cype9k said:

Gotta keep the Riven Mafia moving, otherwise the riven prices drop and DE loses their stonks.

Actually its detrimental to the mafia if popular weapons get their disposition nerfed, not the other way around.
Lots of players should be aware that: One, weapons don't need riven to work, is entirely optional; Two, riven disposition aren't eternal and are adjusted with every Prime Access, so every 3 months popular weapons might get a nerf, unpopular weapons might get a buff.
Disposition adjustment is based on overall usage by the playerbase, which reflects the performance of the weapons because let's be real, the better a weapon is the more that it is used, players in general aren't wasting time using subpar weapons unless they tryhard them with a "god riven"
If you dump thousands of platinum to get a juicy riven for a new OP weapon, you should be aware that such weapon will get a disposition nerf in the following PA. Don't cry.

[(XBOX)SilverSurferGuy]

Popular weapons are popular for good good reason: they’re good weapons and therefore don’t need a riven. Will it be even better? Absolutely. But it’s not needed. The same can’t be said for a weapon that’s garbage. It might actually NEED a riven in order for it to get any use outside of mastery xp. 

[Galuf]

Il y a 14 heures, (PS4)LeBlingKing a dit :

You like the weapon for its mechanic? Well, I have some good news. Making the numbers on that purple card of yours slightly smaller has absolutely no effect on the weapon’s mechanic. 
 

i don’t understand how people who invest in rivens know that dispo is a thing and STILL get upset when their rivens get dispo’d. Christ.

It does :). Some rivens are good because they allow you to cheat out bad mods. If you nerf disposition you may #*!% up breakpoints and make a riven completly useless. Some weapons would be to easy to break as well with too big riven dispositions. It is a constant guessing game. I personnally like it but it is not at all as trivial as you imply. I'm not really gonna speak about specifics there for obvious reasons.

Sometimes yes it is about numbers, but overall I like it better than fashion frame 😄

Edited April 12, 2020 by Galuf

[Berzerkules]

Plague Star event comes around like once a year and 2 months later Kripath/Keewar dispo drops. Of course there were more people using plague zaws it was their first chance in a year to make one. I'm sure usage of zaws on a whole went up since players could get exodia contagion again. Zaws got nerfed across the board. 

Kuva liches are introduced adding kuva variants to the game. Players are obviously going to use them more. Especially since you have to forma them 5 times. After I forma a weapon 5 times I kind of feel obligated to at least use the thing. Better nerf kuva weapon dispo so even less people want to play this content. 

Sentient based content is release with the addition of railjack. Spike in player usage of "The Sentient Slayer" Paracesis. You guessed it. Nerf in dispo.