We miss the Raids

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, AzureTerra said:

We can try. DE isnt going to bring them back because a small number of people liked them.

Correction, small number AND difficult to maintain.

 

Hence why Conclave's still around, since it's comparatively its own thing and doesn't break every five minutes.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

Trials as we know them are dead and buried, and they'll always stay that way.

..yet there is hope that with Squad Link, we might eventually get something better; a new game mode that requires co-operation and knowledge of all the game's mechanics: advanced parkour levels, combat, railjack and Archwing Sequences, all in one long, varied mission with plentiful challenge and reward. might be a while before we reach this point, but there;s no reason we can't eventually get something that surpasses Trials in every way.

Edited April 27, 2020 by (PS4)robotwars7

[Tinklzs]

1 hour ago, -QueenUnicorn- said:

Looking back at it I think it was fun not because of the gameplay but the cooperation that was NEEDED to actually do the raid. This game has strayed into the 4 player but lone tenno kind of vibe, the raids required you to work together and know what to do, now its point and click and maybe wait for some guy to help you open a door. There is no teamwork anymore

 

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

More people prefer running through a mission with a Kuva Bramma and a blindfold than requiring a competent team. The major gripe with Railjack at TennoCon 2018 was "but can I solo it?"

This is a co-op game that is solo with possible team mates.

Raids will never be popular so long as they require 4-8 people and leave no room for leechers/carried players/uncoordinated users.

Raids were good because it made communication required. That aspect is also why they are heavily disliked by the majority of players.

Yup.  I don't see why we can't have a game mode that appeals to those that want coordination in a co-op game. Payday 2 has it with utility items being useful (but not required) for gameplay, and if someone brings it, it helps different aspects of that mission go smoother. Those that don't like it, don't have to play it if they don't want that.

What bothers me is how Warframe is advertised as a coop game, yet for the most part you can solo everything quite easily. Look at Fortuna with excalibur/hildryn cinematic. Or Excal/mag/volt in the CGI trailer.    

Going back to Payday 2 as an example (another horde shooter), as you get to higher difficulties ammo is more scarce and accuracy is top priorty (along with not getting shot). I'd love for the shooting aspect to be more central in higher level play, with abilities being mostly supporting the weapons (CC to shoot better, damage abilities to support the weapons, etc). Frames that use their weapons (like mesa, titania for example) could be buffed by other frames via damage (rhino, nova, etc) to deal more damage since (mesa) can't reliably headshot.

 

Again, just because most won't play it doesn't mean it shouldn't be, salvage and defection are still around.. Not to mention archwing unique missions like Pursuit.

 

  

3 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Oh I don't want enemies to do perform Parkour..

I'd love more enemies with the hyena pack/manics or the jetpack guys with actual mobility to MAKE us move at times. I even like the melee corpus units in fortuna.  We have high mobility, no fun (or challenge) if the enemy doesn't have a fraction of their forces that can do something similar to us.  Even the force unleashed I & II had enemies that were somewhat challenging or immune to an ability you had. While it forces you to change your tactics/playstyle slightly, it gave for many experiments into combinations many wouldn't have known or tried about if those enemies didn't exist.

 

  

13 minutes ago, CeePee said:

No we don't miss the terrible raids, but we do want something better to eventually replace them.

I sadly never got to play them;  I just want something where a little bit of coordination/synergy (nothing gimmicky) and 'awareness' like accuracy/headshots is necessary. A challenge but not 'impossible if you don't do it perfectly'. 

  

12 minutes ago, DrivaMain said:

Ew Forced CO-OP Gamemodes. Get that thing away. 

Different strokes for different folks. Some adore railjack - I prefer 'something more'. Doesn't mean that RJ shouldn't exist because I won't play it.

  

Just now, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

a new game mode that requires co-operation and knowledge of all the game's mechanics: advanced parkour levels, combat, railjack and Archwing Sequences, all in one long, varied mission with plentiful challenge and reward. might be a while before we reach this point, but there;s no reason we can't eventually get something that surpasses Trials in every way.

Exactly.

 

[xXDeadsinxX]

22 minutes ago, Lutesque said:

Oh I don't want enemies to do perform Parkour... I'm saying I want enemies attacks that make us Tenno, want to use our Space Ninja mechanics on them. For example... you know the Battalyst (Atleast I think its called the Battalyst), when it does that lazer Sprinkler thing. I think none of those lazers can actually go past 45 degrees over its head, they usuall just point downwards... anyway When I see that I think thats an example of an attack that places emphasis on making the player want to Bullet Jump and Wall Latch more so than all the other enemies with guns since it cam't track above its head (again... I don't actually know if thats how it works)

Revisiting all the enemie's designs or atleast the behavior of the Projectiles they fire and seeing if it makes players say "Hmmmm... I should probably roll to the left to avoid that) would go a long way to making the game feel more challenging.

I feel like that how Doom designs their enemies, to propose a question to the player regarding their abilites/mechanics e.g. "What do I do, Where Do I do it, When Do I do it ?"

In Warframe it should be like "I should bullet jump To The Upper Left When The Enemy does its CHarge Attack" or "I should slide to the right when the Boss starts spinning its arms"

 

The way it works now is "I should slide/bullet jump/aimglide all the time because that reduces all enemies accuracy" This doesn't make the game feel challenging.Enemies need attacks that make you want to perform only 1 or 2 of your Ninja moves at specific moments, and different attacks/projectiles need to favour different methods of evasion (Hopefully not in counter intuitive manner). 

 

and obviously Warframe abilities need to also follow this model.... but implementing that seems impossible soooo... yeah...that sucks. 

It really does feel impossible to implement not gonna lie. ‘Cause if DE we’re gonna go down the route of challenging content, they would add enemy attacks like you suggested that would be quite a nice start for sure, but unfortunately they don’t want challenge in Warframe.

[akrid45]

Lunaro has a higher chance of getting popular than warframe getting anything challenging with this community so heavily against steps needed for challenge to be added. 

[DOOMPATRIOT]

17 hours ago, AzureTerra said:

We can try. DE isnt going to bring them back because a small number of people liked them.

But DE locked the universal Medallion to not be able to use them in Conclave because of a small group of people...

[xXDeadsinxX]

6 minutes ago, akrid45 said:

Lunaro has a higher chance of getting popular than warframe getting anything challenging with this community so heavily against steps needed for challenge to be added. 

Well to be fair, the devs (specifically Scott in Shy’s interview video) stated that they like that Warframe is a power fantasy. Which with that obviously results in no challenging content since we’re insanely powerful of course.

[DrivaMain]

24 minutes ago, Tinklzs said:

Different strokes for different folks. Some adore railjack - I prefer 'something more'. Doesn't mean that RJ shouldn't exist because I won't play it.

Compared to raids. Railjack has a larger audience and DE Steve’s grand plan to connect it to the rest of the game essentially DE will force everyone to play it wether they like it or not. Raids were removed is because almost no one plays it and the upkeep cost of maintenance doesn’t justify the amount of people playing. I am not suprised if Raids 2.0 will end in the same fate if this happens again.

Asking CO-OP from Warframe players are too much because most of them are lone wolves. We can already see that in Railjack.

[TARINunit9]

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

The enemy levels weren't High

They were level 100. They were sorties. Imagine doing a Grineer sortie without Zaws, Kitguns, or being able to use your Z-kid at all. Also Saryn dealt Viral procs instead of Corrosive. So if you consider that "low level" (and I won't say you're wrong) then yes, they weren't really hard. 99% of the time they could be won by a Mirage and Vauban spamming their 4's while two Mesas stood on buttons nuking all the enemies

1 hour ago, Lutesque said:

and it didnt really require any specific skills other communication and co-ordination.

This was absolutely true for the Grineer one. The puzzles weren't just solved in the casual sense, they were solved in the mathematical sense of having ideal solutions spread all over the forums and wiki. In fact in one area they just stuck a normal Hijack mission in and spawned the Grustrag Three, and called it a "puzzle"

Things were a little more complicated in the Infested one. The second map started with a little of the same "stand on the buttons" fare as Grineer, but after that it becomes about team resource management. You had to know where to kill Infested to farm their batteries, you had to manage plugging batteries into which shield generators to keep the defense objectives moving, and keep some for yourself to not die of horrible voices in your head. And in the third map you had to add "knowing your way around these horrible twisty maps"

Assuming the Infested one actually worked and wasn't bugged again

[Lutesque]

1 minute ago, TARINunit9 said:

They were level 100. They were sorties. Imagine doing a Grineer sortie without Zaws, Kitguns, or being able to use your Z-kid at all. Also Saryn dealt Viral procs instead of Corrosive. So if you consider that "low level" (and I won't say you're wrong) then yes, they weren't really hard. 99% of the time they could be won by a Mirage and Vauban spamming their 4's while two Mesas stood on buttons nuking all the enemies

Well.. as I said earlier... this was before my time so I'm going off from what I've heard. Besides... I heard CC was better than Nuking and that makes that High Level a none issue... provided you had the Energy to CC without the Z-Kids :O !!!

4 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

This was absolutely true for the Grineer one. The puzzles weren't just solved in the casual sense, they were solved in the mathematical sense of having ideal solutions spread all over the forums and wiki. In fact in one area they just stuck a normal Hijack mission in and spawned the Grustrag Three, and called it a "puzzle"

Honestly... I'd take that over Orb fighting any day. 

10 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Things were a little more complicated in the Infested one. The second map started with a little of the same "stand on the buttons" fare as Grineer, but after that it becomes about team resource management. You had to know where to kill Infested to farm their batteries, you had to manage plugging batteries into which shield generators to keep the defense objectives moving, and keep some for yourself to not die of horrible voices in your head. And in the third map you had to add "knowing your way around these horrible twisty maps"

Well... I mean... you didn't say "and you had to use X-weapon to deal a metric ton of damage"... so Thats good... :)

[(PSN)CrazyBeaTzu]

1 hour ago, Numerikuu said:

Can it coexist with everything else? Yes.

Will remaking a mode just to cater to literally 1% of the community pull tons of resources away from several other, better projects, and be a huge waste of time and resources, along with seeing a terrible profit return? Also yes.

Yea I agree. I'm just showing some empathy because I'm a person that used to run those 1%er Raids (not in this game).

A lot of games become more accessible to a wider audience over time and that's ok to me. 

[TARINunit9]

1 minute ago, Lutesque said:

provided you had the Energy to CC without the Z-Kids 😮 !!!

Wow, is that how low Trinity has fallen these days? Newer players like you literally don't know she exists?

[Lutesque]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

Wow, is that how low Trinity has fallen these days? Newer players like you literally don't know she exists?

LoL... Trinity was actually my 2nd Warframe and a Gift from a firend (Because Ambulas farm is The Great Depression). But as for why she doesn't get used over Z-Kids. hmmmmmm I honestly don't know. It might be a Dependency thing. people would rather suckle on Zenurik than get infifnite Energy from an outside source.

I will say that Trinity is still asked for sometimes in ESO. But its for one of those Meat Grinder Squad Compositions that Optimizes ESO runs so hard the only challenging is staying awake. Which is fine... ESO isn't fun anyway... 

[Kimimoto]

2 hours ago, Lutesque said:

The enemy levels weren't High and it didnt really require any specific skills other communication and co-ordination.

I think based on how that sentence flowed they'd give you a hard time 

[Felsagger]

We want something better that replace raids. Railjack can tie up these isles into one long continuous mission experience. 

1. Start in Fortuna, goes up in space attacking Corpus Freighters, go towards a fleet of fomorian ships who stole some valuable weapons from the corpus, reach Plains of Eidolons doing a sabotage on the shield generators for the Galleons, invade the Galleons and Sentient starts an all out conflict. 

Sounds great. 

[Lutesque]

Just now, Kimimoto said:

I think based on how that sentence flowed they'd give you a hard time 

We'll never know 😞

or maybe we will... are raids one of the things being worked on in the Dev Workshop ?

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

Everyone who play Warframe since 2014-2016 never will forget about the Raids, which dropped the arcanes, and was replaced by the Eidolon Hunts.I don't know about you, but I really miss it that way, it was fun, it made it difficult for the game, and it was much more rewarding than the many game modes that you have today.  Through this post, I would like to ask DE to bring him back, and see if anyone else agrees with the return of this game mode

 

 

>everyone 

 

You mean all three of the people that played them? 

[HeartPurity]

2 hours ago, Magicfingers said:

gotta love the way people think they are so important they can speak for everyone else. "we miss the raids" instead of "I miss the raids". in the future, don't speak for me...if i want to say something, i'm perfectly capable of talking for myself, thank you.

exactly, I am an old player and got the emblems for all the normal and nightmare raids but I never enjoy it. I only played it less than 10 times. The raids were messy and buggy and were more to puzzle solving rather than a true boss fight. Tridolon is already boring, the raid is even more boring than that. If I really have to chose between these two, then Tridolon surely win. And knowing DE got to spend a lot of time fixing raids whenever new patch is up, i would rather they just quickly dump that mess into the bin and focus on making new events. The same goes to PVP. If I really wanna PVP, I wont play warframe in the first place. 

[0_The_F00l]

I personally liked LOR,

JV not so much. 

I liked it cause it needed co ordination and atleast a basic level of pre planning to succeed. 

 

I am curious to know how it will fare today with the absurd power and feature creep we have. 

[nickelshark]

DE removed them because of the crazy spaghetti code and relatively small number of players who played them on a consistent basis. So, maybe when they fix the spaghetti code, then maybe they will come back so in other words never.

[o0Despair0o]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

Everyone who play Warframe since 2014-2016 never will forget about the Raids

I did.

I don't miss them. They were crap in every way. The so-called cooperation was an illusion, nobody worked together even if you paid them.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

it made it difficult for the game

Raids were no harder than an exterminate mission on Earth. The only real "challenge" was getting semi-competent team mates.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

and it was much more rewarding than the many game modes that you have today.

Considering the amount of BS you had to put up with - host migrations, bugs, people especially, even Scarlet Spear is more rewarding. And that event is pathetically unrewarding.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

Through this post, I would like to ask DE to bring him back

Several people before you tried, and every single one failed. Possibly because they keep posting in god damn General Discussion rather than frickin Feedback or something where it belongs.

6 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

and see if anyone else agrees with the return of this game mode

About 7 people in total, at best. Including you, that would be enough players for a whooping ONE squad.

[trst]

The difficulty found in Trials was the barrier of entry (learning the one-off puzzles) and putting up with their bugs. They won't be missed and if they returned somehow bug free they wouldn't be appreciated by most players. They also weren't rewarding when you consider you could only do each Trial once a day and were heavily reliant on rng for getting the arcanes you actually wanted.

Honestly the Orb Mother fights are more satisfying content than Trials were. The steps leading up to fighting Profit taker have stages that are made more efficient by coordination and the fight itself is faster in a group due to the damage mechanics and pylon phases while Exploiter is made a lot faster with multiple people gathering Thermia. All while still being very solo friendly.

[Goldenrice]

the people who wants raids will do them once and never touch them again.  the fact that arcanes are worth very little will make even the hardcore players who did hundreds/thousands of runs not wanna do em for very long.

the expectation: you get to organize a small or big party and go on an adventure and do all this coordination and fight this big boss

the reality: it sucks

[Loza03]

4 hours ago, xXDeadsinxX said:

Well to be fair, the devs (specifically Scott in Shy’s interview video) stated that they like that Warframe is a power fantasy. Which with that obviously results in no challenging content since we’re insanely powerful of course.

I would be quite concerned if they weren't aware of what wrestling calls 'putting over' to make that power fantasy happen.

Basically, power fantasy largely relies on the idea that the things you're overcoming are powerful - otherwise, you in turn are not powerful. And, since we can't punch a Grineer in the face in real life, there's only so much that lore and posturing can do to let our squishy meat brains estimate that value on the level that'd give that sweet sweet power fantasy rush when, in our experience, they're little more than mannequins most of the time. This is what's called in psychology an 'anchoring heuristic' - we 'anchor' our estimates based on information we know.

The two main ways that games can set that anchoring heuristic is to A: make something take effort to overcome, because that directly shows the players ability vs the enemy or B: demonstrate the power of the enemy by having them defeat another that the player already considers to be powerful (for example, the Natah quest depicting the Grineer as helpless in front of the Sentients), establishing a scale - X is more powerful than Y, and Y is more powerful than Z, so X is more powerful than Z. The latter is the more traditional way as most media doesn't have option A. However, regardless of method there does exist a trope for when this is overused - the 'Worf Effect'. When one thing keeps being used as the anchor, then so many other things are considered as stronger, so that thing winds up weak. And this can, in turn, reduce the effectiveness when they're used as the anchor. 'You can beat up Worf? So what, so can half the galaxy, and the rest of the Enterprise beat them just fine, why should we be scared of you?'.

 

We're the thing beating up Worf. If nothing ever challenges us, as far as psychology is concerned, it's not just because we're strong, it's that everything else fighting us is weak. And if everything we fight is weak, then what's the point, what's special about doing so? If power fantasy is ultimately about being special, and beating up every new thing the exact same way we beat up the last thing isn't special, then the power fantasy is challenged. If nothing else, it doesn't give the sense of accomplishment. In other words - it's not an accomplishment anymore.

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Vexzz-0 said:

it made it difficult for the game

Raids difficult? Jordas verdict was hard but cause it was buggy mess. Raids became laughably easy to the point you can do nightmare law with 4 people and one of them being drunk as a sailor and it be a breeze. 

Raids were not well designed. Warframe a fast pace horde shooter with a addictive parkour system, the raids never touched on any of that. Raids were 80% stand on button so someone else can stand on another button. Best part of the raids imo was the final phase of jordas, it was great co op objective but badly made as 1 team plays 1 sided volley ball and the other team has a headache with the worst room layout and bugged out puzzles.

Raids will eventually come back but not for a while they need alooooooooottt of work.