Nithwave block

[Fallen77]

il y a 9 minutes, (NSW)BalticBarbarian a dit :

NItain, Nitain and more Nitain! Nitain is required to build frames, weapons, cosmetics and aura forma. Since it is also not available on a reliable basis, you also need to make sure you have a stockpile in case a new weapon/frame comes out between seasons.

Umbral mods already ARE in the meta. The only thing making umbral forma inaccessible achieves is that to fit two Umbral mods on a frame/weapon you need to forma the other 6 or 7 mod slots, ultimately reducing build diversity. I would much rather put 1 Umbral forma on the same weapon, leaving more slots unpolarized and allowing me to play around with other builds. But I would agree that this belongs in a different conversation.

of them

The counterpoints I noticed in your post were

• "...it used to be even worse..." - which I addressed
• "...accept the limitation..." - my entire post is about saying that this specific limitation is wrong and needs to be removed
• "...developers want money too..." - As I said, I would have much less of a problem with these limitations if I could pay plat to get the same resources

Did I miss some other counterpoint you were making?

Nitain : if you absolutly want to aura forma every frame in the game, you brought this upon yourself. But even with this and counting helminth, you'll be completely done with it at the end of next intermission. Not that big of a deal imo. I think you can agree that you are not the norm here, most people are long done with nitain, and you will be too in not too long all considered.

Umbra forma : I strongly disagree with you, but I don't care enough about this to start another debate about this. So as I said, whatever you want. Maybe we'll get to talk about this in another thread.

Counterpoint : is what I am saying from the start. This limitation is in place to push people to use their creds on anything but potatoes (and vauban to an extent). If you let people get NW creds forever without any form of interruption, you lose that incentive. It doesn't matter if you think this is wrong, that is the bar that DE has set. If I had to choose a single of their department that I trust most, it would be their finance department. If they estimate that they need that much, considering how warframe is one of, if not the most, generous f2p model out there, I wouldn't push them to give away any more than they already are. That is basically that. I will give you that it'd be better for someone in your case to be able to buy nitain for example with plat, but I'd guess that they're also afraid of the backlash it would cause.

This is pretty much from where all I'm saying comes from. Maybe I could have worded it in a better way, but that's it : limitation on NW = less free potatoes = profit. And seeing how rare it is for DE to push us to buy anything, apologizing face down anytime they go any small bit overboard, I am entirely for letting them have this.

I would like to go even more into detail about all this, but I would start repeating myself a lot on some aspects, and my boss is gonna start to notice I'm looking more at my phone than at my computer soooo yeah...

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

31 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

If you let people get NW creds forever without any form of interruption

But you DO already have a much more natural limit on how much NW cred you can get: every week you only get 43.5K standing (~4.5 ranks) - worth of tasks. I guess you could also farm glass mobs, but, with the pitiful amount of standing they give you, very (VERY) few people would do that to any great extent.

I don't think people here are arguing in favour of removing this (NATURAL) limit (and I'm not even sure how you'd do it). People are suggesting that the ADDITIONAL limit is unnatural, irrational and should not be there. At least, that's what I've been talking about.

All in all, this boils down to the nightwave seasons being too long. Series 1 and 2 were 3 months long each, Intermission 1 was 1 month long. With season lengths like that, limiting prestige ranks to 30 was perfectly reasonable - nobody would have reached that before the last week or two of the series anyway. And those people would be able to wear the badge of "truly finishing" the series. But Intermission 2 lasted for 6 months, and Series 3 is currently in its 5th month (and we haven't even gotten to the last scene yet).

Adding prestige ranks 31-60 was not some cunning maneuver to trick people into buying more potatoes. It was an "everyone reached the rank limit but Series 3 is nowhere near ready" kind of workaround. What I am saying (along with many other people) is that since they still haven't fixed the underlying issue (series length) then they should at least re-apply the same workaround (bumping prestige ranks up again to 90 or even 120).

[Fallen77]

il y a 26 minutes, (PS4)ForNoPurpose a dit :

At the time people were PLEADING with DE to not outright remove alerts, just to fix their issues. It fell on deaf ears.

Alerts never capped, you never had to worry about if you did one alert would you not be allowed to do another.

You never had to wonder what you couls get for free and what you would be forced to spend plat on.

NW is a prettied up slap in the face. Hearlded constantly ingame by more transmissions to clutter up the UI.

There is no legitimate reason DE cannot keep nightwave and bring back alerts.

I was there at the time. You and and a very small but vocal minority of people able to spend hours upon hours in front of their computers where pleading for alerts, big nuance.

All those praises for alerts, but in practice you wouldn't get anything most of the time, anything !

Items were not weighted against each other cause you wouldn't get ANY.

You never had to wonder what you could get for free because the answer was NOTHING. Except once in a blue moon when the stars aligned, you'd pay everytime.

Yes they could have made alerts last for super long, but thank god they opted for a system that is optimizable, progressable on your own terms, VERY much more reliable, that grants MUCH more stuff than alerts ever did, and even slapped a lot of unique and less unique additional rewards on top.

And yes, not actually litteraly nothing, but when it comes to actually useful items, in around 2 years of regularly playing the game during alerts, I must have encountered a grand total of 4 potatoes. Not even 1/5 of what I got since NW started.

If I had to guess, I'd say you're from that crowd of people that decided to hate nightwave just because "I don't want a game to tell me what to do", even tho that is among the primary base concepts of any video game ever, giving the player a task to complete/overcome. But maybe I'm wrong, but then why are you so attached to those rng based flavorless standard uninteresting missions with a patheticaly low payout ?

And yes, the perfectly legitimate reason why they couldn't keep alerts (other than the useless rubedo ones) with NW is the same reason that this entire thread is, imo senselessly, complaining about : it would give more free stuff than they feel right, diminushing the incentive to buy anything with plat.

 

Tldr : alerts were sheet boring missions that you had to win the lottery to get one with a good reward, that overall payed sheet amount compared to NW and that required nothing but waiting and luck. 

[Fallen77]

il y a 9 minutes, (NSW)BalticBarbarian a dit :

But you DO already have a much more natural limit on how much NW cred you can get: every week you only get 43.5K standing (~4.5 ranks) - worth of tasks. I guess you could also farm glass mobs, but, with the pitiful amount of standing they give you, very (VERY) few people would do that to any great extent.

I don't think people here are arguing in favour of removing this (NATURAL) limit (and I'm not even sure how you'd do it). People are suggesting that the ADDITIONAL limit is unnatural, irrational and should not be there. At least, that's what I've been talking about.

All in all, this boils down to the nightwave seasons being too long. Series 1 and 2 were 3 months long each, Intermission 1 was 1 month long. With season lengths like that, limiting prestige ranks to 30 was perfectly reasonable - nobody would have reached that before the last week or two of the series anyway. And those people would be able to wear the badge of "truly finishing" the series. But Intermission 2 lasted for 6 months, and Series 3 is currently in its 5th month (and we haven't even gotten to the last scene yet).

Adding prestige ranks 31-60 was not some cunning maneuver to trick people into buying more potatoes. It was an "everyone reached the rank limit but Series 3 is nowhere near ready" kind of workaround. What I am saying (along with many other people) is that since they still haven't fixed the underlying issue (series length) then they should at least re-apply the same workaround (bumping prestige ranks up again to 90 or even 120).

I'll try to be brief (rarely succeed at it) because I'll just retire from this thread, there's only so many ways and so many times I can speak my mind.

I don't take the time it takes to reach max rank into account because it's simply a very weak limit imo. Getting almost a potato worth of creds per week is already huge in my book. If people had so little patience that they'd argue about that too I would have lost hope in humanity even more than I already have, which would be an accomplishment in itself.

Intermission 1 was short, but if I remember well it had no prestige rank at all either, everyone would reach max rank before the end and things were fine like that.

Making a season longer or shorter only matters relative to the time needed to reach max rank. And for me, I'd be fine making seasons shorter as long as the ratio season lenght/time to completion was the same. My stance on this doesn't change.

And you also have to take into account the MANY people that would cry "I don't have enough time to get max rank, I need some breathing room, think about meeeee". That's also why this system is structured this way.

Anyway, that wasn't brief at all, I am not convinced, and unless I convinced you, I think we can agree to disagree for good. I'm done talking about NW for some time, DE will most likely cave in to those complaints anyway, peace !

[Kefirno]

34 minutes ago, (NSW)BalticBarbarian said:

Absolutely. But both of these groups of people are outliers. When talking about the playerbase at large you want to be thinking about the abstract "average player". And they are much closer to the "a potato a week" model I described.

We have no idea how average players acquire and spend their plat, potatoes and formas, what makes an average player buy plat and if an average player even makes the bulk of DE's income. What if average players refuse to spend money if they feels pressured by paywalls? What if an average player who spends money regularly logs off until next update upon hitting cap because there's nothing to do? We can't tell. Free2play games are balancing act of freebies and paywalls. Free players need incentive to play, whales need incentive to pay. Whiteknights, however, try to present any free reward as a charity at DE's expense and any bad design as financial necessity. Which is why when I see "b-but DE needs to make money! It's a free game!" argument, I disregard it immediately. Even if DE needs to implement certain progression walls to keep plat sinks relevant, it's their job to make it not feel like hard progression walls.

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

6 minutes ago, Fallen77 said:

Making a season longer or shorter only matters relative to the time needed to reach max rank. And for me, I'd be fine making seasons shorter as long as the ratio season lenght/time to completion was the same. My stance on this doesn't change.

NW seasons have 2 "times to completion": "time to complete main segment" (first 30 ranks: all unique rewards + a few items from the shop) and "time to prestige completion" (first 30 ranks + all prestige ranks).

All I am saying is that NW should have

time to complete main segment < season length < time to prestige completion + (2-3 weeks)

a.k.a. "prestige ranks should not run out until the series is about to end"

[(NSW)BalticBarbarian]

8 minutes ago, Kefirno said:

Whiteknights, however, try to present any free reward as a charity at DE's expense and any bad design as financial necessity. Which is why when I see "b-but DE needs to make money! It's a free game!" argument, I disregard it immediately.

Free rewards are not charity - they are advertising. But DE does need to make some money: devs want to eat too. But financial necessity should not be used as an excuse for bad game design.

Obviously, we don't have the player stats that DE have and can't truly know what a real "average player" looks like. But I strongly suspect that they look more like my middle-ground model than the two extreme cases you outlined.

As I mentioned above, I'm fine with progression walls. They simply shouldn't feel as artificial as this particular one does.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

1 hour ago, Fallen77 said:

yes, the perfectly legitimate reason why they couldn't keep alerts (other than the useless rubedo ones) with NW is the same reason that this entire thread is, imo senselessly, complaining about : it would give more free stuff than they feel right, diminushing the incentive to buy anything with plat

With this line of thinking its no wonder companies like EA get away with the amount of microtransactions they do.

First off, you literally countered this arguement yourself.

1 hour ago, Fallen77 said:

yes, not actually litteraly nothing, but when it comes to actually useful items, in around 2 years of regularly playing the game during alerts, I must have encountered a grand total of 4 potatoes. Not even 1/5 of what I got since NW started.

By this statement NW gets DE LESS MONEY and not more. Additionally i notice you do not mention nitain or cosmetics at all.

1 hour ago, Fallen77 said:

had to guess,

Holy, the amount of assumptions you make is insulting to say the least. If you want to search the posts, my sentiment at the time is as it is now. I like the weekly challenges and being able to buy things as i wish, however i do not thing removing all alerts outright is better in the short or long term as there was plenty of value in them.

Back when i was starting out in dec 2017, those "worthless" alerts were anything but. I would do everything from credit to poly alerts. Even after i got to where i could reliably farm the index and such untill i had maxed all my mods i would often find myself completely out of credits to even start index runs.

I used to farm the aura alerts so i could give out spares to clan members. Those mods are such a core part of the modding system.

And yes, i had my phone setup to give me notice about potatoes, and was able to claim at least one a month, some months had as many as 5.

And of course nitain. I did thise alerts often long past actually needing them. To the point that right now, i still have over a dozen left from those days.

Fact is that a new player starting out right now will not get a lot of the easy access to aura mods, nitain, cosmetics that i had. They must weigh those options against other necessities.

It effectively removed a system that did nothing but benefit the new player experience. I am happy ro have had that when i started out and feel sad that newer players must instead learn the cred system, and grind for 1.2 weeks just to get one potato after reaching rank 30. 

 

Fact is that NW is dramatically grindy for some items. While it is easier to get potatoes and more reliable, something that ALSO MASSIVELY BENEFITED ME SINCE I ALREADY HAD GOTTEN EVERY OTHER THING LIKE THE AURAS ETC, fact is getting EVERYTHING that is needed is a pain now.

I say there is no reason DE cannot have both. Because apart from the cosmetic head replacements, nothing you can get in Nightwave that costs plat was EASIER to get before for the typical player. Nitain and the aura mods need other avenues to be reliably obtained from. GL to new players who want to farm Vauban for the first time.

Yeah. Alerts often seemed worthless.. but the number of times where even a Rubedo alert ended up being useful when i was starting out... its a damm shame that is gone.

5k rubedo is worthless to me now.. but it was once a jackpot.

[cestparti]

i'm a new in the game ( ~ 4 month) i buy plate for i have more frame or weapon and skin. But i need nitain and i can i have some when i do the nightwave until now because i'm block.

When i'm comming on this game it's will writing play for free. When i muss buy all i need it's not the same. i think it's normal i want just play.

[ElFrog]

I'm rank 74 in NW tho

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

6 hours ago, Kefirno said:

So sad, starving indie dev has to lock some MR5 player out of one potato a week because they couldn't pay thier bills! Smash like if u cried!! 😿😿😿

Somebody has no idea how running a business works.

[imaduyan]

why set daily and weekly objectives, if it is to have the same rewards as a player who does not really do the NW.

 

how long can't buy anything at the store?

 

[[DE]Rebecca]

On 2020-09-14 at 3:35 AM, imaduyan said:

hello,

I farmed the night waves from the beginning. I reached rank 60 after the last award.

The problem is that now, I can no longer earn tokens to buy the many mods, weapons and nitain extracts.

I am a new player and game stop in my progress especially since there is no other way to get object of the game until the next night wave season.

 

REALLY Delayed reply here on our part, but only had enough information today to comment. We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches (soon TM). Apologies for the delay! 

[Skaleek]

44 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

REALLY Delayed reply here on our part, but only had enough information today to comment. We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches (soon TM). Apologies for the delay! 

Why even have a limit at this point, Rebecca? The players are paying for the fact that nightwave is proving to be more upkeep than you guys originally thought.

[Zahnrad]

44 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

REALLY Delayed reply here on our part, but only had enough information today to comment. We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches (soon TM). Apologies for the delay! 

This is genuinely not a jab at anyone at DE, but it might be worth getting some more people to check the forums for when issues like this happen. I reported it back on the 22nd of September, this thread is from the 14th, and I've heard even more claim it's gone on for longer.

[Drachnyn]

vor 56 Minuten schrieb [DE]Rebecca:

REALLY Delayed reply here on our part, but only had enough information today to comment. We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches (soon TM). Apologies for the delay! 

Hello 7 month nightwave series...

[Voltage]

Can we have a system that lets players gain Creds for the duration of a Nightwave season while also having a numerically capped level? I don't like the way Nightwave is set up where having "max rank" means you never stop doing challenges because the goal post is moved multiple times throughout the season AND is retroactive.

Nightwave feels like a very forgiving (yet still comparable) battle pass system. Battle passes are simply unhealthy for players and they capitalize on FOMO and push players to play past enjoyment in order to reach the highest rank. Nightwave stopped being fun during the very first season (The Wolf of Saturn Six) if I'm going to be honest. 

[Tesseract7777]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

REALLY Delayed reply here on our part, but only had enough information today to comment. We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches (soon TM). Apologies for the delay! 

Thank you! I'm guessing the data showed enough players already reaching the cap, and this is why the decision was made now and not earlier. Glad to see this being addressed. 

[Leqesai]

On 2020-09-14 at 1:01 AM, Fallen77 said:

How many potatoes have you bought in order to stil not have enough for the couple actually useful mods and a handfull of nitain ?

You know you don't need to potato every single item in the game right ?

If not that, how did you manage to burn through so many NW credits ?

[ADirtyMonk]

1 hour ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

REALLY Delayed reply here on our part, but only had enough information today to comment. We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches (soon TM). Apologies for the delay! 

How about you tell Steve and Scott that a lot of people would be much less pissed that Nightwave seasons run for a half a year at a time on a month and a half of content if the normal rewards were simply looped every 30 ranks instead of just giving us the stupid pittance of credits after 30. You know, essentially the time frame they originally sold us the Nightwave system on?

[Crevab]

So when are we going to get Nightwave Revised and drop the idea of Seasons and Intermissions? Just an ongoing reward and cred store then you release story bits and limited time things to buy? Something that puts less crunch on you guys be so you might be able to hit a time frame at some point

[Luciole77]

On 2020-09-14 at 5:40 AM, Butterfly85 said:

I'd be entirely unsurprised if they slapped another 60 ranks onto this at some point 🤷‍♀️

lol...another 30 ranks....-.-

Thisthing will never end?

I can see this nw going to the next year....! -.-

 

[Thawfoot]

Wow  just now a response?

back on oct 11 we have

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1230816-i-passed-the-nightwave-max-rank-of-90/

here oct 6th

On 2020-10-06 at 12:50 PM, Thawfoot said:

Thanks for this...but

How about addressing the hard cap on Nightwave standing?

More offerings on elite vendors teshin/vitus essence.... and something with loid/necraloid standing...

was the plan to make the gold mods dropped from the necramech on par with legendary cores?

A reason to keep playing? and logging in?

The forum are full of people asking about this

Quote

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1226912-apparently-de-still-cant-figure-out-nw-after-years-in-game/

256k/10k rank 90 as of posting....  why not make it endless...

nevermind the focus... i have in excess

[(NSW)Gamer-Steve]

4 hours ago, Voltage said:

Can we have a system that lets players gain Creds for the duration of a Nightwave season while also having a numerically capped level? I don't like the way Nightwave is set up where having "max rank" means you never stop doing challenges because the goal post is moved multiple times throughout the season AND is retroactive.

Nightwave feels like a very forgiving (yet still comparable) battle pass system. Battle passes are simply unhealthy for players and they capitalize on FOMO and push players to play past enjoyment in order to reach the highest rank. Nightwave stopped being fun during the very first season (The Wolf of Saturn Six) if I'm going to be honest. 

Coincidentally, I thought of an addition to Nightwave some time ago, that could make it more useful over time based on what the player chooses to do.

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1225681-working-from-home-devstreams-sept-18/?do=findComment&comment=11854800

[Yrkul]

5 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are adding 30 more Prestige Ranks when Episode 5 launches

Whatever rudimentary semblance of a story The Glassmaker had has grown stale and uninteresting. Just get it over with, and give us an intermission, so we'll at least have something worth doing challenges for.