Is warframe's dependence on the wiki bad?

[Surbusken]

If you look at the crime scene gameplay it tells you all you need to know, about the entire mentality behind the game.

Minimal amount of actual content and player agency; 'fun' - and a hardcore, gigantic overload of various functions put it place, simply to just waste your time.

What you have to laugh at, is how eager and in a hurry the developers are, to ever increase the already ridiculous fake grinds, with no upper limits on being pitiful.

Meaning, to waste your time, reading up on wasting your time, is another intentional grind inside the other grinds... lol.

At this point, we are looking at adding fake extended loading screens and phoney crashes to make you restart your game. Give the game some longevity.

Could also have people re-forma all their weapons but nerfing damage types.

Imagine how great the game could be if they took even 15% of the energy put into that and put it into something useful instead.

[NekroArts]

There are things that be good to have in-game, but there some that should just stay in 3rd party websites for how much information there is and how convoluted it will look.

What will be good in the game:

• Listing which frame will give out what element you want from a Kuva Lich.
• How to acquire a frame through the codex (while some like Ivara and Nidus will have it in the market info, frames like Frost and Mag don't have such information; both I want in the codex)
• Orokin Derelict Vaults and their key acquisition.

What won't look good:

• The math equations like damage from weapons, reload speed, weakness/resistance affecting damage, etc.
• Extensive ability-information like Exalted Blade.
• The entire bounty rotation reward pool.

[Galuf]

il y a une heure, Soy77 a dit :

So yeah, probably just like monster hunter, warframe could be a massive global game that's accepted by mainstream gamers in another 13 years.

Nah Warframe is pretty self explanatory compared to even mhw. I had to wait Iceborn to understand what affinity was. I did the whole game without having a single clue about what I was doing, I was eating because I understood it was important and that's it. Like even elemental damage calculations require a phd in monster hunter lol. Warframe has been tested by a metric tons of players from steam players to now every recent console, also wf wiki was setup as it is nowadays before open beta release and everything is in it, worst case day 2.

[DogsConkers]

The reduction in youtube videos about new content has made the wiki more important

[Awazx]

Is warframe's dependence on the wiki bad?

 

Yes.

[Loza03]

1 hour ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

The nuance is there, and the average player base still couldn't access it. Some people couldn't even recognize the large floating glowing white ball in the isolation vaults, while others were showing screen shots of 20 scintillant. 

When you login, on the top right it says "What's new" "Prime access" "Build notes", and they had to still add another "update notes" section in-game on the bottom right in the options menu. 

You have people asking for features that were already in the game, like the ability to switch the hold/press cycling ability for frames like Vauban and Titania. 

The loading screen also gives a lot of information people can use, as well as alllll the prompts usually on the bottom right of the UI. 

So I'm in my arsenal right now on a frame. There's a white circle with an "i" in it. Let's see what it says when I click it:

Tips

"Install compatible mods from the bottom menu to the desired upgrade slots."

There's 6 diamonds, with one filled in and it says "R2"..... maybe that means there's a second page....let's see what happens lol.

"Combine primary elemental types to create secondary ones."

Nice, now I can experiment with some mod placement to see what neat elements i can make! Lmao

What's on the 3rd page?

"If the polarity of the mod and the slot you install it on match, the capacity cost of the mod will be halved"

Whoa sweet, so if I use these forma things, I can halve the cost of more of my mods! 

Ok I'm gonna stop there, you're not new you get the jist lmao

It took six years to get those tips, for context of why the playerbase is sensitive about this topic. Most of these systems have been around for at least as long and had literally nothing for most of that. So whilst the game has absolutely gotten better about teaching the new player than it used to (and granted, veterans aren't going to keep up with that as much), it's a recent development.

Even still, the player is effectively dropped into the starmap with basically no information about anything. The codex, which contains useful information, doesn't have anything until after the player has encountered enemies or found a mod, relics get one scene of dialogue, Lotus told players to attack the Kuva Siphon not the clouds for years, the player is dropped into the plot with at best no plot, and sometimes outright contradictory information.

Like, Alad V's plotline. Half of it isn't in the game and a quarter of it is told entirely out of order. A new player can get onto Jupiter, and immediately deal with Amalgams, which is the current end of his story. Then they jump to Zanuka, which is about an eighth of the way through his narrative. And if you thought "wait, isn't that his first appearance" NOPE! He actually appeared in text form a couple of times before that as the Grineer/Corpus ambassador which literally doesn't exist anywhere in the game anymore. Then you hit the Second Dream and get post-mutualist V, take a brief Detour where Tyl Regor accuses you of murdering his Toobmen when you cured him (citation needed), and then round off your journey with Eris, whereupon he's just starting his mutalist Empire. At least, until you make the Steel Path Victory Lap, and meet Misery who's apparently convinced you're in the process of being in a defence mission with him as the target after the events of TSD.

[Kahrain]

No. Reliance on outside information is a must for a lot of games. Used to be a thing we traded in person on the playground/around the office breakroom. Now we just coalesce our collective findings into a wiki these days. The Zodiac Spear in the original release of Final Fantasy 12 says 'You'll never figure this out on your own.' as an example.

[Zimzala]

I see no issue at all, beyond so many players not wanting to experiment with the void magic they have been given.

It is a design choice, you can like it or not like it, fine, but to me it is part of what makes the game worth playing - I have things to actually figure out and experiment with to learn what they do!

It is not good or bad, it is simply the design choice that has been made, like it or live with it, or hate it.

The game is based on a world where we are corrupted by void magic and 'wake up' during the story...why should we know anything more in context? Why should we know anything other than what we find on our own? Why does it matter things are out of order, when the world is twisted by void magic? Why can it not be part of the game itself to learn how the world works, as it were?

If anything, from my POV, the existence of outside information repositories ruins games like this, because so many players just skip to the end, since they don't have to figure anything out themselves, not because the game did not spoon feed them.

Many modern players seem to want to the game to just tell them what to do, where to go, how to get there and pat them on the head for doing a good job, IME, like a movie where they hit some buttons now and then and you get loot...not what I call a game if the thing plays itself.

Having to figure things out is what keeps me playing.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

27 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

It took six years to get those tips, for context of why the playerbase is sensitive about this topic. Most of these systems have been around for at least as long and had literally nothing for most of that. So whilst the game has absolutely gotten better about teaching the new player than it used to (and granted, veterans aren't going to keep up with that as much), it's a recent development.

Even still, the player is effectively dropped into the starmap with basically no information about anything. The codex, which contains useful information, doesn't have anything until after the player has encountered enemies or found a mod, relics get one scene of dialogue, Lotus told players to attack the Kuva Siphon not the clouds for years, the player is dropped into the plot with at best no plot, and sometimes outright contradictory information.

Like, Alad V's plotline. Half of it isn't in the game and a quarter of it is told entirely out of order. A new player can get onto Jupiter, and immediately deal with Amalgams, which is the current end of his story. Then they jump to Zanuka, which is about an eighth of the way through his narrative. And if you thought "wait, isn't that his first appearance" NOPE! He actually appeared in text form a couple of times before that as the Grineer/Corpus ambassador which literally doesn't exist anywhere in the game anymore. Then you hit the Second Dream and get post-mutualist V, take a brief Detour where Tyl Regor accuses you of murdering his Toobmen when you cured him (citation needed), and then round off your journey with Eris, whereupon he's just starting his mutalist Empire. At least, until you make the Steel Path Victory Lap, and meet Misery who's apparently convinced you're in the process of being in a defence mission with him as the target after the events of TSD.

I agree we're dropped into the starchart without much. I think flawed mods trick new players into wasting their endo and need to be removed and just give them regular mods, too. DE realized the need to give more info and I checked out the lich in-game instructions as well, so they're trying to catch up I feel.

But many games are "world builders", people use their imagination to create an almost entirely separate world, just like Lord of the Rings or Game of thrones. If either of those franchises made an online MMO it would be just as confusing to a new player, especially if they didn't even see the movies or read the books. That's the chaotic beauty of them. A massive online game like WoW or FF or warframe is just a big world with it's own literal timezones. If a player wants to come try to make it in that particular world they have to be curious and start investigating. You don't just go outside and start asking people what everything is, some people will help you (online players), but it's still up to you to to sit down and open up menus, read descriptions etc. Some people are more extroverted and communicate with others to learn, and that's probably one of the things you're supposed to do. But I'm an independent lone wolf that practices self sufficiency, so I'm just used to taking a proactive approach. "Ok, these relays are like towns where I take a break from the starchart missions and get supplies, let's see what each NPC has.."

And that's where you figure what you want and need and discover how to tackle the games missions.

[Voltage]

6 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Of course not. This game is rated M, so it should be played by people that can read. 

There are much easier child-friendly games to play that require no nuance or hand-holding, but warframe shouldn't be it.

It's not that you need to rely on the wiki for very complex or specific things like some games. Warframe requires you to read extensively outside the game to actually grasp the foundation of the damage system or various interactions on how different bonuses are calculated. It's not hand-holding to teach players about your game.

Warframe's reliance on the wiki is unbelievably unhealthy. It certainly doesn't help that the Codex is neglected, and people play for years still not understanding things that they were just never told or explained to.

[Tesseract7777]

11 minutes ago, Voltage said:

It's not that you need to rely on the wiki for very complex or specific things like some games. Warframe requires you to read extensively outside the game to actually grasp the foundation of the damage system or various interactions on how different bonuses are calculated. It's not hand-holding to teach players about your game.

Warframe's reliance on the wiki is unbelievably unhealthy. It certainly doesn't help that the Codex is neglected, and people play for years still not understanding things that they were just never told or explained to.

I think it's absurd that not only are a lot of basic game mechanics, or a lot of stuff powers do not directly explained in game, but that what is available in game to see without extensive testing to figure it out requires you to freaking scan it often many times. 

It's ridiculous. Scanning something in the codex should give you flavor text, imo, stuff like that. 

Hiding game information, that is already poor displayed and conveyed, behind a scanning mechanic that requires you to bring a specific sentinel or do it manually is not only poor design, it's just asinine and should have been overhauled from the ground up years ago. 

[NecroPed]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I think it's absurd not only are basic game mechanics, or a lot of stuff powers do (that they don't "have room for" in the description text), but that what is available in game to see without extensive testing to figure it out requires you to freaking scan it often many times. 

It's ridiculous. Scanning something in the codex should give you flavor text, imo, stuff like that. 

Hiding game information, that is already poor displayed and conveyed, behind a scanning mechanic that requires you to bring a specific sentinel or do it manually is not only poor design, it's just asinine and should have been overhauled from the ground up years ago. 

That information isn't always needed to successfully play Warframe though. I ignored just about every meta, weakness and elements use for years because I was already successfully playing Warframe without utilizing them. And it was much more satisfying to realize those things along the way myself. And as an extension I actually quite enjoy the idea of having to scan for this information, it makes you do something (albeit small) to learn the information, keeping some of that satisfaction of figuring something out when you just simply aren't quite figuring it out entirely on your own. 

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, NecroPed said:

That information isn't always needed to successfully play Warframe though. I ignored just about every meta, weakness and elements use for years because I was already successfully playing Warframe without utilizing them. And it was much more satisfying to realize those things along the way myself. And as an extension I actually quite enjoy the idea of having to scan for this information, it makes you do something (albeit small) to learn the information, keeping some of that satisfaction of figuring something out when you just simply aren't quite figuring it out entirely on your own. 

I'm glad you enjoyed the "challenge" of it. 

That doesn't mean it's good game design. 

Hiding important information about game mechanics behind side progression is silly. 

[NecroPed]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm glad you enjoyed the "challenge" of it. 

That doesn't mean it's good game design. 

Hiding important information about game mechanics behind side progression is silly. 

But, it's not that important. You don't need to rely on that information to be able to play Warframe or progress well. 

[trst]

Warframe does lack more key information than it should in-game or at least be more accessible. However I feel the issue isn't the game's dependency on a wiki but rather a player preference for knowing now vs learning through trial and error. There is plenty of information that isn't essential enough to know everything about instantly and can be found through experimentation (mod/weapon interactions, fish locations, map secrets, etc). While things like drop locations should be more easily located in-game (codex scanning for mod drops is a neat idea but is too much of a time investment and inconvenient to use). Also a wiki will always contain more information than any in-game source can which has spoiled players who do seek out more information.

IMO the whole thing more so comes down to preference. Some people enjoy not having their hand held through an entire game and have a lot of it left up to their own drive to explore and experiment with the tools available. While others just don't want to bother, don't want to feel like they're missing out, or are worried about wasting time. All of which comes down to the point that should you want more information the wiki is there while if you don't want it then you can easily ignore it and continue learning on your own. And while there is some information that should be made more available in-game there is a balance here that I feel should be ruined.

[Tesseract7777]

6 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

But, it's not that important. You don't need to rely on that information to be able to play Warframe or progress well. 

I'm sorry we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You don't have any rebuttal except to say you think it isn't needed/isn't important, and your perspective on this is clearly in a different dimension, much less universe, from mine. I understand some people just see things very differently. It's a similar reason I disagree with a lot of people who think Dark Souls is "super skill based". 

Hiding information that should be accessible and making you find it is not a real challenge imo, it's an artificial "challenge" that gives developers an excuse for lazy design. 

Besides, the idea that it gives you any challenge, imo, is invalidated by the fact that anyone can get around that challenge in a second by looking up the wiki. I think it should be embarrassing to the developers that most people rely on a wiki to understand their game. 

 

[NecroPed]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I'm sorry we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You don't have any rebuttal except to say you think it isn't needed, and your perspective on this is clearly in a different dimension, much less universe, from mine. I understand some people just see things very differently. It's a similar reason I disagree with a lot of people who think Dark Souls is "super skill based". 

Hiding information that should be accessible and making you find it is not a real challenge imo, it's an artificial "challenge" that gives developers an excuse for lazy design. 

 

Well, I did just fine without any of this information. My own experience is all the rebuttal I need. Because I didn't need it, so it's safe to say others might not as well. 

 

I'm sorry, but Dark Souls IS skill based. It's reactionary combat. Which relies on an individuals skill to do well with. It's not skill based because it hides it's lore and story and gives little information. It's skill based at it's core. And hiding this kind of information goes well with a lot of players who enjoy this skill based combat. Because it's an extra layer of relying on yourself, your knowledge and your capabilities, not what's presented to you.

[TheLexiConArtist]

What is a Wiki really, but a game's manual like we used to get, except actually being updated with new information, changes, and discoveries?

If it were officiated by DE, and browsable in-game as some other complex and convoluted games choose to do, would you still have a problem with it?

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, NecroPed said:

Well, I did just fine without any of this information. My own experience is all the rebuttal I need. Because I didn't need it, so it's safe to say others might not as well. 

 

I'm sorry, but Dark Souls IS skill based. It's reactionary combat. Which relies on an individuals skill to do well with. It's not skill based because it hides it's lore and story and gives little information. It's skill based at it's core. And hiding this kind of information goes well with a lot of players who enjoy this skill based combat. Because it's an extra layer of relying on yourself, your knowledge and your capabilities, not what's presented to you.

I understand your perspective, on all of this, I just don't share it. 

You enjoying that type of challenge, which I personally don't equate to a real challenge, doesn't mean it's good game design. The fact you personally made it through it, with respect, doesn't rebut my points. You are a single case, an anecdote, who said you personally like not having a lot of information presented to you. 

You are free to disagree. I respect your view, but I see the things very differently. Not going to get into it about Dark Souls here, but let's suffice it to say I will agree to disagree. 

[Jackdarsan]

The game should be able to be played and understood without having a wiki. The game could have the option to have a 'hey this is what this is and some details' in the game that can be read further in the codex. Also have this option be able to be turned on and off to ensure players that want to play blind can do so. 

Warframe already have this in missions, i.e. Rescue mission, where orb mother tells you that you need to rescue the target, has a marker where the target is and then tells you to get out and marks the exit.  Why not have a one off option to explain to players, through a one off introduction mission that you start in the open worlds. Talk to this NPC to understand how to fish or how to mine and have the information on that this kind of mining node is only farmable in a cave or this fish needs fass bait during vome cycle. 

 

Game developers can do this but it might be pure laziness and the fact that people are just use to having to refer to a 3rd party site/Wiki to breakdown/explain the game (players helping players).  

 

[Aldain]

5 minutes ago, NecroPed said:

Because I didn't need it, so it's safe to say others might not as well.

...That is not safe to say at all.

Because the exact opposite of the statement has just as much weight, just because you didn't need it doesn't mean others don't/won't.

Also exactly how would the game being more clear actually harm you just to ask?

[NecroPed]

Just now, Aldain said:

...That is not safe to say at all.

Because the exact opposite of the statement has just as much weight, just because you didn't need it doesn't mean others don't.

Also exactly how would the game being more clear actually harm you just to ask?

It is safe to say others might (And I definitely do share the same mentality with others who I have spoken to), just like it's safe to say others might disagree. Because that's the thing, there are multiple sides to this. And they should all be considered. Because a drastic change which either removes information or puts it in the forefront can have a negative impact on someones enjoyment. 

I'm not saying we can't add more information to Warframe, I just don't like it being up in the forefront. I would rather figure things out myself. And I understand others might not, which is why the wiki is a great resource. I'm all for more information being added to the codex, but it needs to be kept out of the way.

[Monolake]

If this game was playable without wiki it would've been much more popular, most people quit because they feel lost and dont know what to do or how to 'level up'

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, Voltage said:

It's not that you need to rely on the wiki for very complex or specific things like some games. Warframe requires you to read extensively outside the game to actually grasp the foundation of the damage system or various interactions on how different bonuses are calculated. It's not hand-holding to teach players about your game.

Warframe's reliance on the wiki is unbelievably unhealthy. It certainly doesn't help that the Codex is neglected, and people play for years still not understanding things that they were just never told or explained to.

If DE is constantly upgrading their status and damage system via reworks, that just means writing massive paragraphs in the codex or wherever is gonna give people the opportunity to say "they keep changing the damage system what gives de!? How are we supposed to learn your game if ur changing it every year!?"

The last thing we need is some warframe Karen reading an in-game description of faction damage and saying "fAcTiOn dAmaGe IsNt bAlAnCed DE! pEOplE aRE ABuuUUsing BanE griNEer!"

That seems to be the running theme, correct? DE nerfing things because it got popular and some person that shouldn't even be playing saying "but kHoras a pRoBleM!", right? 

I think DE and the players should worry about actually reading the wiki first, then deciding what's ok to be in the game permanently and not, because for someone that has read the wiki it seems like no one really knows anything until someone that actually knows something about the game tells everyone else and it spreads like wildfire.

How long until we "figure out" garas 2 "all of a sudden" shouldn't reach thousands or hundreds of thousands of stacked glass shield damage? How long until someone thinks heavy attack slash damage "isnt balanced"? Or giving wukongs clone a Bramma "isnt fair to public matches"?

 

[Cloud]

I feel as if Warframe without 3rd parties apps is unplayable.

Without Wiki you're forced to investigate for everything, even part of the game you may not be interested in, wasting a lot of time. Even if you figure something out, you should need to write it down somewhere, or that knowledge could be lost in 1-2 years. Some adjustment or update could have passed without you noticing, this making you belive something in a certain way instead of another and so on.

Without Warframe Market everyone would be condemned to sit in trade chat and endure the utterly unbearable spam instead of actually playing the game. Personally once I started to use it I never went back. Surely you earn less from every trade, but you do many more in numbers and without any effort behind it.

Without RBC farming vaulted relics would be simply impossible.

I'm just waiting for a better version of the LFG discord spreading among the biggest alliances to say goodbye at the only not proficient thing kept in. After that the only tab I will ever use will be the region one to chit-chat. A man can only dream.