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What DE doesn't seem to get about the "Guns vs Melee" Balance Issue


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7 hours ago, EnwoQ said:

Somehow I think most of you haven't played the game solo for years.
If you want to balance something play solo for a few weeks to get an idea.
Atm teamwork is rewarding but no required which is nowadays rare, which means you don't have to pay into it to pass it.
The solo aspect is the best about warframe.

Look at me playing RJ for hours... oh no.. nope, I couldn't even finish first mission.

It might not be required but in some missions it's very helpful to have team.

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This person provided a deep analysis on how we play the game, Melee is used bcs its convenient in a game that constantly overwhelm you with enemies throwing themselves at you, what did you expect me to do with Snipers that takes too long to Aim and shoot while braindead Infested enemies jumping at me from all directions, Of course Nuke frames and Melee are the way to go, I've been shouting the exact same thing this post said for a long time now, but reading the comments makes me think the community cares only about smashing buttons, If anyone can provide an answer about How to actually use a sniper in steel path missions I'm ready to buy into the "Horde shooter mentality" everyone seems to have. 

Edited by MouadSaqui
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7 hours ago, shoot_gun_man said:

At this point I'm just waiting for DE to screw up so bad that I no longer have to waste my life on this game ever again.

Well this might just be the silliest post I’ve ever seen. If you’re not having fun playing the game, which it sure sounds like you aren’t, then why “wait for DE to screw up”? Just put yourself out of your misery.

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19 minutes ago, (PSN)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Well this might just be the silliest post I’ve ever seen

saddest post - the guy cannot put the game down because its is desgned to keep you playing, but he obviously wants to, but those reward-centres in the lizard parts of his brain are stopping him, so he needs an external influence to finally kick this habit. Your comment forgets that there are many charities and organisations all set up to help people with addiction issues, so this is not an isolated case.

And for Warframe as an addictive game, well 😆

https://www.ukat.co.uk/gaming-addiction/

Quote

The worst kinds of games leading to addiction are those classified as massive multi-player online role-playing games (MMORPGs). Why? Because these entail a number of things that make total dedication to the game necessary if one wants to be successful. For example, these role-playing games involve an ongoing story that is never quite finished.

 

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Melee is just easy and brain-dead and that's pretty much the only real reason players prefer melee over guns. Most guns can only kill 1 at a time even with infinite damage. With PT maybe 2 or 3. AoE guns come with self-stagger.  Melee kills everything in a cone area and doesn't require aiming and no damage buff on guns would fix that.

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49 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:

saddest post - the guy cannot put the game down because its is desgned to keep you playing, but he obviously wants to, but those reward-centres in the lizard parts of his brain are stopping him, so he needs an external influence to finally kick this habit. Your comment forgets that there are many charities and organisations all set up to help people with addiction issues, so this is not an isolated case.

And for Warframe as an addictive game, well 😆

https://www.ukat.co.uk/gaming-addiction/

Quote

The worst kinds of games leading to addiction are those classified as massive multi-player online role-playing games (MMORPGs). Why? Because these entail a number of things that make total dedication to the game necessary if one wants to be successful. For example, these role-playing games involve an ongoing story that is never quite finished.

 

That quoted part in the quote is the most silly theory I've ever read and makes me really doubt anything that comes from that site.

The story part is never the reason for the addiction in an MMORPG (which Warframe isnt for that matter). The reason for addiction in MMOs is mostly the grind aswell as fomo, both which go hand in hand. Fomo itself can take different shapes, from overgrinding timed events to not miss out on anything, or it can take the shape of regular grinding. A simple case of the Joneses, but with pixels and e-peens to determine who is alpha or the most successful fellow on the block. Grinding allows you to show your shinies and status afterwards in the nearest town, often astride a magnificent mount infront of a numerous crowd of noobs with their jaws so open that the chin hits the paved ground beneat their pixelated feet. All thinking "I wanna be that guy one day!" and goes out to grind like maniacs.

And we can see that the quoted theory isnt true just by looking at WF, where story advancements are few and far in between, they are also short, barely lasting an hour after they are released, and we grind and spend most of our time in the game in-between story segments.

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39 minutes ago, Marvelous_A said:

Melee is just easy and brain-dead and that's pretty much the only real reason players prefer melee over guns. Most guns can only kill 1 at a time even with infinite damage. With PT maybe 2 or 3. AoE guns come with self-stagger.  Melee kills everything in a cone area and doesn't require aiming and no damage buff on guns would fix that.

Buffed aoe weapons and debuffed enemies are just as braindead, and there are ways to avoid stagger. 

Any team of 4 can make 98% of weapons strong, but they choose not to due to their lack of experience. Octavias 4 buff alone is a great damage boost, add harrow, novas 4, gauss etc. 

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33 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

And we can see that the quoted theory isnt true just by looking at WF, where story advancements are few and far in between, they are also short, barely lasting an hour after they are released, and we grind and spend most of our time in the game in-between story segments.

I don't think they meant "story" as just few pages of dialogues/thoughts. I think they include what you get (e.g. new frame), new land to explore etc.

Whenever it's true or not games & players are different. Players get "joy" from different things. One could enjoy chatting with others. Others might "get every item" or be "the best". Lots of those aspects may be addicting.

I'm not very knowledgeable about addictions but the one post about "DE breaking the game" might sounds silly but I think that for addict person it might not be silly.

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1 hour ago, quxier said:

I don't think they meant "story" as just few pages of dialogues/thoughts. I think they include what you get (e.g. new frame), new land to explore etc.

Whenever it's true or not games & players are different. Players get "joy" from different things. One could enjoy chatting with others. Others might "get every item" or be "the best". Lots of those aspects may be addicting.

I'm not very knowledgeable about addictions but the one post about "DE breaking the game" might sounds silly but I think that for addict person it might not be silly.

I just find the quote within the quote an odd quote to use in relation to what the person tried to point out, since he talks about the lizard-brain while the quote from the site brings up ongoing story aspects of rpgs as a major factor to addiction. While he isnt wrong about what he says, that the addiction is hard to beat due to the rewards, it has little to due with the very silly quote provided from the page. And I'm not implying silly in use here by the poster, I'm implying silly as in the content of it and whoever came up with it.

Those that have written it have clearly never played MMOs or atleast never actually gotten into them if they draw some connection between story and addiction. As someone who has been more or less addicted to MMOs in the past I can for certain say the rpg elements tied to the story and its advancements had extremely little impact on why I played those games for an unhealthy amount of time. And you are 100% correct, people get joy out of different things, the addiction can come down to chatting, getting every item or be the best. I'm just pointing out that the advancing story has zero to do with the addiction since it tends to be so shallow and short in games that it simply couldnt hook and hold anyone. It is all the other things that gets people addicted to those games.

Those in it for the story simply play the story, drop the game and come back for more stories when they are released only to play and drop the game again (possibly after a wee bit of non-story related grind). That is quite the opposite of addiction, since the behavior is as controlled as it can get at that point. Just as someone who enjoys a glass of wine or two during the weekend.

edit: A sidenote. The observation in the quote though isnt uncommon for people that really havent gotten into MMORPGs. We can see this in TV-shows aswell, where this thinking regarding MMOs is a stereotype. Big Bang for instance depicts MMO gaming as something very campy and in character with horribly forced LARP-cringe infront of a screen. Pretty much any MMO player (including us who loved RP or RPvP servers) will go "wtf is this?" "that isnt how MMOs work or play" when seeing those episodes. Sure they are fun, but they also play on a stereotype that really doesnt exsist.

Edited by SneakyErvin
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22 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

This is the root problem - and its all down to the RNG. We run those miossions fast (even ones that should be done slowly, like low-level fissures and murmurs) because the chances of you getting the reward you wanted can be infuriatingly low. This could be solved with the "RNG mercy" system where you never get the same drop twice, or much reduced chance of the same drop so players don't need to run it so many times.

But then the problem DE has is that players won't need to run these missions constantly, and the fear is we will go and play something else. Says a lot about the game design if they think we don't want to play the game because of the game.

See, someone else gets it.

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5 hours ago, gbjbaanb said:

saddest post - the guy cannot put the game down because its is desgned to keep you playing, but he obviously wants to, but those reward-centres in the lizard parts of his brain are stopping him, so he needs an external influence to finally kick this habit. Your comment forgets that there are many charities and organisations all set up to help people with addiction issues, so this is not an isolated case.

And for Warframe as an addictive game, well 😆

https://www.ukat.co.uk/gaming-addiction/

 

He or she is still at the stage where trust for DE is still present. He or she still thinks DE cares about player feedback. 🤣

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9 hours ago, MouadSaqui said:

This person provided a deep analysis on how we play the game, Melee is used bcs its convenient in a game that constantly overwhelm you with enemies throwing themselves at you, what did you expect me to do with Snipers that takes too long to Aim and shoot while braindead Infested enemies jumping at me from all directions, Of course Nuke frames and Melee are the way to go, I've been shouting the exact same thing this post said for a long time now, but reading the comments makes me think the community cares only about smashing buttons, If anyone can provide an answer about How to actually use a sniper in steel path missions I'm ready to buy into the "Horde shooter mentality" everyone seems to have. 

I gave sniping a few tries with both stealth frames and others. As always, it definitely works well but the load-out has to match the objective. Exterminate, spy and rescue were a lot of fun actually, especially with two buddies also running stealth frames (an Ash and a Loki. I was Ivara). The standouts were the required patience involved, the excellent XP and the extra loot. This is where I think people mistake Warframe as just the "rush and hack" game often shown by youtubers. There are a lot more elements to experience.

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8 hours ago, (PSN)chubbslawson said:

I lost trust in them long ago

The actually listen a LOT. They listen too much actually. As a reminder, there are people in this forum who still declare "DE doesn't listen" while they post their feedback in the general discussion area and not the FEEDBACK area....effectively, well, not listening. 

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I feel like its a problem, that DE made steel path and all of a sudden wants to balance the game around it.

Balancing the game around level 100+ ebemies with health, armor, and shield modifiers that make them tankier than anything else in the game (realistically) is going to cause two issues.

 

1) the "hard mode" will be balanced as if its a new "normal mode"

2) "normal" mode will be a 1 shot fest or close to it even more than it already is. 

 

It also conveniently ignores the fact that non AOE guns lose to melee or aoe just by virtue of not being able to attack multiple enemies at once and having reload times.

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The problem like always is the meta build. If you run a weapon and just mod it casually. without combo counter, combo duration and attackspeed the melee weapons are fine.. But if you abuse combo counter and attack-speed the stuff scales to hard.

 

This is a "MMO-Lobby-Shooter" not an "Assasins Creed- Rogue like Knive game."  Its weird by design that a melee weapon can be better then a Primary in a Shooter!!!

Just make melee weapon an utility tool, make melee weapons m,ain purpose finisher attacks and extreme high single target damage. A melee weapon should not be able to zoom through multiply enemies. that is the main problem. With your "Gun" Weapon u can only shoot 1 enemy unless u play something special or charge attacks.

 

Pros of melee over "Gun"/Primary:

  • aoe attacks
  • faster attackspeed
  • no ammo
  • combo counter/multiplier
  • dont need aim/super easy to hit

Cons:

  • need to be "close" to enemy aka melee

 

Stahlta is a good example:

i make 1 autohit/slide attack with a melee and 5 enemys are dead. Or i shoot 5 times and aim 5 times to kill the same enemys (assume we oneshot them).

If you dont use the delayed Charge attack, the Stahlta is always not worth using compared to melee attack.

 

So, how to fix melee?

  • make all melee weapons only able to hit 1 target (if you dont use charged attack) so you need to click atleast 3 times if u want to kill 3 enemys
  • make combo counter dmg bonus only work on finisher/stealth attacks.
  • make an "pseudo ammo" for melee called stamina. if you attack to fast you have to rest a few seconds. (like more then 10 attack per 20 seconds u have to wait 10 seconds until u can use melee again)
Edited by WaifuJanna
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Funny, most people understand the real problem is the non aoe guns (single target) which needs to be fixed
And then some clowns suggest to fix that by making melee single target only
Let's be real here Its GOOD THAT DE DOESN'T Listen (to everything)

Edit: that house is burning (the problem) , let's burn all other houses (the solution)

Edited by EnwoQ
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3 minutes ago, EnwoQ said:

Funny, most people understand the real problem is the non aoe guns (single target) which needs to be fixed
And then some clowns suggest to fix that by making melee single target only
Let's be real here Its GOOD THAT DE DOESN'T Listen (to everything)

They listen, there just isn’t a lot worth listening to, and most things of value are buried under mountains of half thoughts and rants.

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1 hour ago, WaifuJanna said:

The problem like always is the meta build. If you run a weapon and just mod it casually. without combo counter, combo duration and attackspeed the melee weapons are fine.. But if you abuse combo counter and attack-speed the stuff scales to hard.

 

This is a "MMO-Lobby-Shooter" not an "Assasins Creed- Rogue like Knive game."  Its weird by design that a melee weapon can be better then a Primary in a Shooter!!!

Just make melee weapon an utility tool, make melee weapons m,ain purpose finisher attacks and extreme high single target damage. A melee weapon should not be able to zoom through multiply enemies. that is the main problem. With your "Gun" Weapon u can only shoot 1 enemy unless u play something special or charge attacks.

 

Pros of melee over "Gun"/Primary:

  • aoe attacks
  • faster attackspeed
  • no ammo
  • combo counter/multiplier
  • dont need aim/super easy to hit

Cons:

  • need to be "close" to enemy aka melee

 

Stahlta is a good example:

i make 1 autohit/slide attack with a melee and 5 enemys are dead. Or i shoot 5 times and aim 5 times to kill the same enemys (assume we oneshot them).

If you dont use the delayed Charge attack, the Stahlta is always not worth using compared to melee attack.

 

So, how to fix melee?

  • make all melee weapons only able to hit 1 target (if you dont use charged attack) so you need to click atleast 3 times if u want to kill 3 enemys
  • make combo counter dmg bonus only work on finisher/stealth attacks.
  • make an "pseudo ammo" for melee called stamina. if you attack to fast you have to rest a few seconds. (like more then 10 attack per 20 seconds u have to wait 10 seconds until u can use melee again)

Never gonna happen. Not sure why you'd even think so.

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18 hours ago, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

He or she is still at the stage where trust for DE is still present. He or she still thinks DE cares about player feedback. 🤣

They listen alot to us. Sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better.

I wouldnt have Lavos as my favorite frame atm if they didnt listen to the community, since all the changes he recieved came from the community. They didnt listen and implement everything, but they listened enough and turned him into a wonderful frame. Then there are places where they've listened too much, like with RJ loot, making it completely pointless to chase anything in there since everything is too easy to obtain.

4 hours ago, WaifuJanna said:

This is a "MMO-Lobby-Shooter"

How do you even manage to combine MMO and lobby in the same sentence? If it is a lobby game it isnt an MMO. WF is a horde-shooter with co-op options, nothing more, nothing less.

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10 minutes ago, SneakyErvin said:

They listen alot to us. Sometimes for the worse and sometimes for the better.

Remember: to listen to someone is "to cater to their every word" not "to take their words into consideration".

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