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What DE doesn't seem to get about the "Guns vs Melee" Balance Issue


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In Devstream #152, DE acknowledged the problem of "Guns vs Melee", but they only talked about Damage (which is just a part of the whole issue), and something that I found personally concerning: They listed Melee Attack Speed specifically as a problem, when its not, and in fact is one of the reason some melees are so fun in the first place.
In Devstream #155 they reiterated the disbalance issue and said "Melees need a nerf", "Primaries won't get stat increases across the board", "Buffs will come in the form of Mods".

Below I'm gonna list some of the components of Warframe (and any Shooter with Melee for that matter), how and why they clash in the current state of Warframe's gameplay and how this is an issue which emerged from the evolution of the game, and not something inherently good/bad about these weapons. But before I wanna clarify I've been playing for over 6 years, I'm MR 30, +5000hs on Steam, so I've pretty much experienced every weapon and gamemode in this game.

Dynasty Warframe: Hordes and Cover

So in the beginnings, Warframe was a Shooter like any other, couple of shots got you killed, getting in Melee range was a risk and using Cover was THE way of killing enemies and staying alive. A slower, more methodical gameplay. But because the AI has always been pretty much braindead, DE didn't have a way to scale difficulty but to make MORE enemies, with MORE Stats. Fast forward to today and using Cover is a joke, as enemies spawn constantly and from every direction, and for that reason even the act of Aiming puts you in a disadvantage unless you are paying constant attention to the minimap so you don't get flanked. This is what is usually known as "Horde Enemies". And of course, the way players play the game changed to adapt to this playstyle: AoE is king, and survivability depends on using abilities non stop, to either nuke, perma cc or tank, because if you don't you will get overwhelmed and killed. As you might have noticed, this lines up with the most used items, which could be considered "meta": Heavy hitting AoE (Bramma, Nukor, Khora), anything that can Tank and/or Buff Itself (Inaros, Nezha, Rhino) and whatever can Perma CC (Vauban, Nova, Khora). So naturally the game shifted from a "Slow -Clean rooms shooter" to a "Fast -Stay alive hack and slash", meaning the only missions that can be played purely as a shooter are those that don't spawn enemies constantly (Exterminate) or involve long distances between players-enemies (Open Worlds). Sadly there is probably no way to revert the "Dynasty Warframe" enemy Hordes gamestyle the game has now.

Enemies killed per Swing/Shot

This one is pretty simple: Melee will ALWAYS affect more enemies than (non AOE) guns, which means as long you are using a gun and actually aiming you are losing time, and there are more enemies spawning than being killed, meaning you are getting closer to be overwhelmed and die. And even if the mission doesn't have quick spawns, you are still playing slower by using a gun, and in a looter game, specially with such amount of RNG and mission time adding up to a massive grind, you will ALWAYS want to complete missions as fast as possible.

Evolutive Mods: Awful for Build Diversity, Awesome for Gameplay

Now this what I think DE should address first, because this is the actual reason Melee dominate the meta, not because they have INHERETLY better stats, but because they have Evolutive Mods (Blood Rush, Condition Overload) which makes them stronger the more you actively use them. And I know what you might be thinking "Just add the corresponding version of each Evolutive mod to Guns" and I ask "What will happen? How will builds look like?" the answer is simple, the same copy+paste build on everything. So no, Evolutive mods shouldn't be added to Guns, but the Evolutive mechanics should be BASELINE in ALL Weapons. This will require some rebalancing across the game, for sure, but making the Weapons get stronger the more you ACTIVELY use them, is fun, rewarding and FAIR. Also the removal of Evolutive Mods would make room to actually diverse builds, because currently if you are not using either Blood Rush or Condition Overload you are doing it wrong. And this has to do with the Melee Attack Speed which [DE]Geoff listed as a problem, it is not that Melees have too much Attack Speed, is that players build for it so the Evolutive Mods scale faster. In Devstream #155 [DE]Geoff acknowledged Evolutive Mods and the willing to add them for Primary and Secondary Weapons, but said they wouldn't buff Guns stats across the board which in my opinion is a mistake, because even with Evolutive Mods Primary and Secondary total damage is much lower than Melees, meaning that Evolutive Mods will take longer, and have a harder cap of "evolution" compared to Melees, because Evolutive Mods scale based on raw stats.

Pick Ups and Vacuum, the never ending battle between DE and the Community

Guns use ammo, some have VERY small ammo pools, to get ammo you need to pick up loot, to pick up loot you need to get in melee range. Melees don't use ammo, in melee range you pick up loot instantly, so you get HP/Energy Orbs sooner, which adds to your survivability. So: Melees are inherently more convenient to use because of how Pick-Ups work, even if they were equally strong to Guns.

Melee and Datamass, an Unbreakable Bond.

This is a subtle yet very important matter here. Melees are our default Weapon when carrying a Datamass, or when we are Fishing, Mining or Hunting, or when using the Omni Tool in Railjack, or carrying Coolant Cells, etc. When we are performing these actions, we only have Abilities and Melee to kill the enemies and keep doing what we were doing. A nerf to Melees will subsequentially make all of these activities suck even more than what they already suck now. Now pair this with the leaked Gun Mods, the ones adding % Damage if you DON'T have a Melee equipped, and you will probably understand my deep concern.

Difficulty: Mechanical Skill vs Superior Stats

All of the consecutive changes that led to "Dynasty Warframe", SPECIALLY the lack of ANY AI update whatsoever, made it so the only way DE can ramp up the difficulty is making more enemies, harder to kill, with layers upon layers of Invulnerability Phases or Ability Nullification. Basically in Warframe you don't need to learn attack patterns and aim to weak-spots, you just need to pass the "Stats Check" meaning that Player's Skill and Weapon Mechanics are secondary to Raw Stats, so naturally the meta changed from "Git Gud" to "Git the Items that Make you Gud". The best example I can give is Steel Path, Kuva Fortress Disruption: The Demolisher Units have BOTH Ability Nullification and Stats Layers (and Invulnerability if you count the shield), so it doesn't matter the frame you have, you need the biggest DPS dispenser in your arsenal and you need to find a way to uber your build to not die because otherwise you are not gonna be alive for long enough to even damage the Demolishers, which cant be stopped as they are not affected by abilities.

Below are some comments I got the last time I discussed these ideas here:

Melee Attack Speed mods need to be additive and not multiplicative.

This shouldn't be done to "nerf" Melee, but instead because ludicrous attack speed makes Combos (ergo Animations) completely irrelevant. DE should balance this change to Melee Speeds, by giving us more compelling Combos, with some kind of scaling and polishing the ratio Animation Time / Damage.

Playtime

This is something that came up here and in the forums. Basically the fact Warframe needs to be fast and have relatively easy enemies, because the grindy nature of the game makes its so you will need to run missions repeatedly most of the time. I think this is part of a bigger issue, Playtime is not respected as it should, RNG is either extremely easy or extremely hard, no in-between (I've never seen a single Braton Vandal Stock in over 4 years of almost daily ESO runs). But (and this is important) DE seems to be aware of this, because the "medallion" system Deimos embraced is one of the best ways to reward Playtime: "You get the Loot with luck, or you grind enough Medallions to buy it". Now the connection between Playtime to Melee Attack Speed is a long one, but I think the middle point is Missions Requirements, we need more "Clean this map of enemies" and less "Stand here for 3 minutes"

Evolutive Mods (Blood Rush, Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds) were stated as the 1# factor for most of the disparity in "Melee vs Guns" powercreep. Personally I think they should be removed and ALL weapons should be given Evolutive Attributes. This is how I stated it in another comment:

"Remove all Evolutive Mods. Every Weapon has different Evolutive Attributes that scale. For some Crit Chance, for others Status Chance, or Multishot, Fire Rate, maybe even stuff like +Elemental Dmg."

This opens a LOT of possibilities, and a new Layer of Balance DE can make. Like "Well all players build this weapon for crit but it has good status chance, what if we lower the crit chance but give it +Elemental dmg on hit, so they could run it as an elemental weapon too?" Best way to balance is to give nerfs and buffs equally, and for that you need a variety of interactions. As it is now DE only have: Dmg, crit chance and riven disposition to balance the meta, that's why everytime a good weapon comes out, it overshadows all the ok weapons.

The blazing fast gameplay was an emergent phenomenon to a heavy grind game.

This is simple, players will always try to run missions as fast as possible, so Kill-Time will always be king. Is not just that Melees kill too fast, is that Guns kill too slow.

Dynasty-Warframe

Hordes and braindead AI, the reason the game rewards "Stat Checks" and not Attack Patterns learning or Weakspot Aiming. There is probably no going back from this, but better enemy design, and less reliance on massive spawns and layers of dmg reduction for difficulty is the road to take to start improving on this aspect. Is not that Dynasty-Warframe is bad, is that the game wasn't designed as such in the beginnings and the older systems are starting to show their cracks.

Ludicrous Attack Speeds on Melees abolish Combos and disregard Animations

A lot of people talked how the bind Melee Attack on Mouse Wheel so they don't destroy their keys, and how they would like to actually learn and use combos (if they actually behaved as combos and had scaling properties). Combo Counter time is a BIG issue here. Personally I think the Timer should be removed, combos should have scaling properties (Evolutive Attributes) added to combos, and DE should balance Speed and DMG, slower attacks should be stronger than light attacks. The combo counter should be STILL consumed on Heavy Attack tho, as it is now, Combos and Heavy Attacks are 2 completely separate things.

Well, this took WAY too long and my time ran out, so I couldn't include everything or grammar check the whole post. Please comment down below your thoughts on this matter. Tomorrow I'm gonna edit the post with anything I missed and with any valid additions from comments. Hopefully this gets traction, because we need to Discuss this before DE starts working on changes, so we have better chances of being heard.

And.... That's pretty much it. Remember to keep the discussion civil, that's how we keep a healthy community and make sure our Feedback is heard.

Remember Tenno We All Lift Together Good Luck, Have Fun and Take Care


Thank you VERY much for reading Tenno, have a nice day and take care. Peace 🙏😊

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1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Sadly there is probably no way to revert the "Dynasty Warframe" enemy Hordes gamestyle the game has now.

Not necessarily a bad thing, personally I wish we had more spawns. I'm hoping that in the future when more people will have access to the new-gen Consoles, DE can maybe make new additions tot he game such as enhanced graphics, and larger enemy numbers: the newer consoles could easily handle it.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

This one is pretty simple: Melee will ALWAYS affect more enemies than (non AOE) guns,

which is why I want DE to focus on buffing the non-AoE and bullet guns more than AoE weapons which are already meta, ideally bullet guns should offer superior DPS at the cost of being single target only (punchthrough not withstanding).

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

In Devstream #155 [DE]Geoff acknowledged Evolutive Mods and the willing to add them for Primary and Secondary Weapons, but said they wouldn't buff Guns stats across the board which in my opinion is a mistake, because even with Evolutive Mods Primary and Secondary total damage is much lower than Melees, meaning that Evolutive Mods will take longer, and have a harder cap of "evolution" compared to Melees, because Evolutive Mods scale based on raw stats.

can't really blame them though, when you look at the several hundred primary and secondary weapons we have, many with variants, it'd be an insane amount of work to look at each individual weapon and give it the level of treatment it needs: DE have kind of become victims to their love of granting new weapons in this regard. it would be nice to get a balance pass on base stats... but are you willing to wait until like 2025? time is money, as the saying goes.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Pick Ups and Vacuum, the never ending battle between DE and the Community

none of this would even be an issue if DE weren't so bafflingly stubborn about what should and shouldn't have Vacuum. without Vacuum yes, you can certainly pick things up faster in melee, because you can just pick up things right as they drop, but a lot of people still run vacuum and guns too.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Melees are our default Weapon when carrying a Datamass, or when we are Fishing, Mining or Hunting, or when using the Omni Tool in Railjack, or carrying Coolant Cells, etc. When we are performing these actions, we only have Abilities and Melee to kill the enemies and keep doing what we were doing. A nerf to Melees will subsequentially make all of these activities suck even more than what they already suck now. Now pair this with the leaked Gun Mods, the ones adding % Damage if you DON'T have a Melee equipped, and you will probably understand my deep concern.

no, they aren't. Secondaries are your default weapon when carrying something, with melee being another option. the whole idea of restricting players to this was likely to try and make players think more about their choice of sidearm in missions like Mobile Defense and Excavation, but really it doesn't do much. plus if I can still use a two handed melee like Galatine Prime, why can't I hold a rifle? IMO you should only be able to use one-handed melees and single Pistols while carrying items, or be able to carry the object on your back and free up both arms. 

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Demolishers, which cant be stopped as they are not affected by abilities.

well yes, but actually no: instead of a constant bubble like what Nullifiers have, Demolishers emit a pulse that periodically cancels powers, meaning there are moments when they are vulnerable to skills like Ensnare or condemn to hold them in place. you don't get a big window for dealing damage, but it's better than nothing, and if used properly it can make the difference between winning or losing a Conduit. you can see the red pulse when it goes off, which IIRC is every 2-3 seconds. 

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Playtime

I do agree with you on this. I get far more time to play then the average person and even I'm noticing that time-constrained people are getting it worse nearly each time a new frame comes out. judging by the forum posts I've seen over the last few weeks a fair few people are still grinding for Protea all this time later. like holy hell, that frame was added last year... I feel sorry for anyone who's gonna try and get Yareli for free. I'd much rather take the L and buy her with a coupon than listen to the vent brats babbling on.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Hordes and braindead AI, the reason the game rewards "Stat Checks" and not Attack Patterns learning or Weakspot Aiming.

there are exceptions to that though: Thumpers have to be hit in their weak spots to take damage, as do Eidolons before their final phase. we've also had fights like Nihil which involve using specific tactics to defeat him, and not everybody liked it: too many people prefer "Dynasty Frame", you might say.

only 5 more days until we get to see this Dev Workshop of theirs anyway. plenty of time to buy popcorn. 

 

Edited by (PSN)robotwars7
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1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

They listed Melee Attack Speed specifically as a problem, when its not, and in fact is one of the reason some melees are so fun in the first place.

And I think opposite. I think many weapons are boring (and doing nothing interesting) and when you add Primed fury game becomes unrecognizable mess.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

This one is pretty simple: Melee will ALWAYS affect more enemies than (non AOE) guns, which means as long you are using a gun and actually aiming you are losing time, and there are more enemies spawning than being killed, meaning you are getting closer to be overwhelmed and die.

Aiming with RMB might be slower, sure, but without it it's not always true. Sometimes it's harder to go from point A to point B (where enemy is). Sometimes it's just easier to shoot the enemy.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Guns use ammo, some have VERY small ammo pools, to get ammo you need to pick up loot, to pick up loot you need to get in melee range. Melees don't use ammo, in melee range you pick up loot instantly, so you get HP/Energy Orbs sooner, which adds to your survivability. So: Melees are inherently more convenient to use because of how Pick-Ups work, even if they were equally strong to Guns.

Carrier, Looter, Ammo case and other stuffs makes gathering loot/ammo easier. No need to destroy everything with melee.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Melee Attack Speed mods need to be additive and not multiplicative.

Not sure about it. In my opinion we should have option to set melee speed to some reasonable speed and scale damage/status/crit/something.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

This shouldn't be done to "nerf" Melee, but instead because ludicrous attack speed makes Combos (ergo Animations) completely irrelevant. DE should balance this change to Melee Speeds, by giving us more compelling Combos, with some kind of scaling and polishing the ratio Animation Time / Damage.

Whole combo system require lot of work. Division on normal > forward >block > forward block combos IS good start. Now there should be reason to use each combos from the start (no unique feature at the end). And forward/backward combos should move you forward/backward and other 2 shouldn't move you (at least much less than forward/backward one).

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

slower attacks should be stronger than light attacks.

This is one nice idea.

1 hour ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Evolutive Mods (Blood Rush, Condition Overload, Weeping Wounds) were stated as the 1# factor for most of the disparity in "Melee vs Guns" powercreep. Personally I think they should be removed and ALL weapons should be given Evolutive Attributes. This is how I stated it in another comment:

"Remove all Evolutive Mods. Every Weapon has different Evolutive Attributes that scale. For some Crit Chance, for others Status Chance, or Multishot, Fire Rate, maybe even stuff like +Elemental Dmg."

This opens a LOT of possibilities, and a new Layer of Balance DE can make. Like "Well all players build this weapon for crit but it has good status chance, what if we lower the crit chance but give it +Elemental dmg on hit, so they could run it as an elemental weapon too?" Best way to balance is to give nerfs and buffs equally, and for that you need a variety of interactions. As it is now DE only have: Dmg, crit chance and riven disposition to balance the meta, that's why everytime a good weapon comes out, it overshadows all the ok weapons.

This is what I'm afraid of. What if now I can mod weapon for 2 things but someone says STOP IT'S STATUS NOW? No... I don't like it.

9 minutes ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

but a lot of people still run vacuum and guns too.

Me and my Carrier P say "HI"!

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What this post doesnt seem to get about the "Guns vs Melee" balance issue.

We dont even know what will be changing yet, so lets save the irate madness until then.

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There are some good points in there.  But I can't stop obsessing over...

3 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

I wanna clarify I've been playing for over 6 years, I'm MR 30, +5000hs on Steam, so I've pretty much experienced every weapon and gamemode in this game.

...and yet...

3 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

Melee and Datamass, an Unbreakable Bond.

This is a subtle yet very important matter here. Melees are our default Weapon when carrying a Datamass, or when we are Fishing, Mining or Hunting, or when using the Omni Tool in Railjack, or carrying Coolant Cells, etc. When we are performing these actions, we only have Abilities and Melee to kill the enemies and keep doing what we were doing. A nerf to Melees will subsequentially make all of these activities suck even more than what they already suck now. Now pair this with the leaked Gun Mods, the ones adding % Damage if you DON'T have a Melee equipped, and you will probably understand my deep concern.

😐

Did you just forget sidearms exist?  Just not play with them equipped as a matter of Primary Pride?  Are you experiencing a personal, six-year-long bug?  You seem like a smart fellow, there -has- to be an reasonable explanation.   What is it?  Please get back to us.  I won't be able to eat, sleep, or think about Warframe weapon balance until this is resolved. 

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4 minutes ago, Tiltskillet said:

Did you just forget sidearms exist?  Just not play with them equipped as a matter of Primary Pride?  Are you experiencing a personal, six-year-long bug?  You seem like a smart fellow, there -has- to be an reasonable explanation.   What is it?  Please get back to us.  I won't be able to eat, sleep, or think about Warframe weapon balance until this is resolved. 

I don't think it's so complicated. I may be wrong but if you have equipped melee, after taking data-mass, game will just pick melee. I'm 25 ( could be probably 26-27) MR but I still forgot stuffs.

And in case of fishing, mining etc you have to unequip your gear to go fishing, mining etc. With melee, you just press E.

So, yeah, go to sleep.

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2 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:
3 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

 

I do agree with you on this. I get far more time to play then the average person and even I'm noticing that time-constrained people are getting it worse nearly each time a new frame comes out. judging by the forum posts I've seen over the last few weeks a fair few people are still grinding for Protea all this time later. like holy hell, that frame was added last year... I feel sorry for anyone who's gonna try and get Yareli for free. I'd much rather take the L and buy her with a coupon than listen to the vent brats babbling on.

This is a very important point. This game is HEAVY with stuff to do and it's not until breaks are taken that it's truly realized just how many updates DE pushes.

As for the guns vs melee, I think players who complained about the differences (in Steel Path) are going to regret the changes...but the entire player base might love it. If that "+300% damage without melee) mod set is the type of option they're considering, then 1000% COUNT ME IN. That simply means, IMO, that variety of options are coming instead of a universal change. I welcome experiments and out of the box thinking. Warframe doesn't require maximum dps so why not allow for over the top, silly, hard core and insane build players to have their fill? I get the attack speed mod stacking but I wouldn't go much further than that.

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Honestly with the exception of sniper rifles I will NEVER be interested in using single target weapons unless it's for mastery. Could you imagine trying to do Sanctuary onslaught with a single target weapon 

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7 minutes ago, immpulse531 said:

Honestly with the exception of sniper rifles I will NEVER be interested in using single target weapons unless it's for mastery. Could you imagine trying to do Sanctuary onslaught with a single target weapon 

Are you suggesting infinite punch through to all shooting weps?

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8 minutes ago, -SicMundusCreatusEst- said:

Are you suggesting infinite punch through to all shooting weps?

Even then weapons with aoe damage like the bramma and acceltra will still be more efficient. And imo more fun I'd rather cause giant explosions than just shoot an ordinary rifle 

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3 hours ago, quxier said:

Carrier, Looter, Ammo case and other stuffs makes gathering loot/ammo easier.

and also uses up a mod slot that, in a melee weapon, will be used for extra damage. So melee has an addition bonus to the bonuses it already enjoys.

5 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

This is simple, players will always try to run missions as fast as possible, so Kill-Time will always be king. Is not just that Melees kill too fast, is that Guns kill too slow

This is the root problem - and its all down to the RNG. We run those miossions fast (even ones that should be done slowly, like low-level fissures and murmurs) because the chances of you getting the reward you wanted can be infuriatingly low. This could be solved with the "RNG mercy" system where you never get the same drop twice, or much reduced chance of the same drop so players don't need to run it so many times.

But then the problem DE has is that players won't need to run these missions constantly, and the fear is we will go and play something else. Says a lot about the game design if they think we don't want to play the game because of the game.

 

Personally I think melee should be single-opponent targets only, none of this sweep round and kill everything. Giving guns AoE and punch-through gives them an advantage melee would no longer have, hence a balance (of sorts). I would go further and nerf melee to be less effective against armour and shields, and none of this stupid "slash procs bypass armour" nonsense (or toxin for that matter - damage reduction is there for a reason, make the damage types work to remove the protection before you kill the enemy makes so much more sense than the DoT tricks). Then maybe the corpus and grineer can start to have fewer enemies, and the infested can have more. might make for a more interesting game then.

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4 minutes ago, gbjbaanb said:
4 hours ago, quxier said:

 

and also uses up a mod slot that, in a melee weapon, will be used for extra damage. So melee has an addition bonus to the bonuses it already enjoys.

What you mean?

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1 minute ago, gbjbaanb said:

 

 

Personally I think melee should be single-opponent targets only, none of this sweep round and kill everything. 

Then many animations for melee stances wouldn't make sense If they becomes single target only. Also how will glaives aoe explosion work. I think current non aoe guns should get some sort of ricochet rounds mod like in borderlands

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Somehow I think most of you haven't played the game solo for years.
If you want to balance something play solo for a few weeks to get an idea.
Atm teamwork is rewarding but no required which is nowadays rare, which means you don't have to pay into it to pass it.
The solo aspect is the best about warframe.

But whatever let's see how game will be in the future.
I hope the nerf melee so much that it's useless and that the guns buff is actually something similiar to that we ve already gotten in the last few months.
Hope they nerf everything so that everything will be unplayable unless you have meta squad like eidolon speedrun, with god roll riven and only meta weapons/warframe
I would gladly laugh at all those people calling for nerfs then crying.

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11 hours ago, (PSN)robotwars7 said:

can't really blame them though, when you look at the several hundred primary and secondary weapons we have, many with variants, it'd be an insane amount of work to look at each individual weapon and give it the level of treatment it needs: DE have kind of become victims to their love of granting new weapons in this regard. it would be nice to get a balance pass on base stats... but are you willing to wait until like 2025? time is money, as the saying goes.

If not DE, who is to blame? It’s their game, their design, and they are opting out of fixing their own math.

Like, they literally had an update where they went back and changed all the base stats of the melee weapons, and nothing was done for guns. This gun buff is years late, they should’ve already been working on tweaking the stat lines of guns.

What is most revealing to me in this situation, is that not a single person at DE actually understands the game on the deep, mathematical level. Because if even one of them did, this Herculean task would be significantly more simple, but they would already know what to change and all that would be left would be implementation. And changing numbers really isn’t that hard.

But more specifically, nothing is stopping them from doing it in batches. They could do pistols first, then snipers, lasers etc OR and get this, what if they just buffed them stuff peoole actually use?

What if they just narrowed the scope of the buffs down to weapons between a 0.5-0.8 disposition and didnt deny their community a good update because they insist on dragging their failures around with them?

I get that you want to defend them. But in this situation it’s a mistake. They’ve done nothing and they are all out of ideas.

Edited by _R_o_g_u_e_
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18 hours ago, Roble_Viejo said:

"Remove all Evolutive Mods. Every Weapon has different Evolutive Attributes that scale. For some Crit Chance, for others Status Chance, or Multishot, Fire Rate, maybe even stuff like +Elemental Dmg."

This opens a LOT of possibilities, and a new Layer of Balance DE can make.

I disagree. I think this would effectively shut down a lot of options and become a balance nightmare. The fact that a very powerful feature like Blood Rush or Weeping Wounds is on a Mod means players can use it across a variety of weapons. If we remove those and apply specific versions of them to weapons immutably, that's just another level of creating meta-led disparity.

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