Why people dont want melee to be nerfed?

[1up20xdey6]

2 hours ago, (PSN)Madurai-Prime said:

Raids had nothing to do with melee....it was bugs and the 1% of people playing them.

Or at least that's what DE claims to be the case. Yet this has been proven false, and now look at Conclave and Lunaro.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Raids. These are basically a culmination of all of the above - which is the point of a Raid, since it's supposed to be the pinnacle of PvE content.

No, raids are not the "pinnacle" of anything. They are simply a hoop to jump through to get the new and improved gear, the only purpose of the hilariously mislabele "difficulty" is to make sure most people won't bother with the frustration so the few dummies who do can flaunt their bigger numbers (which are all trivialized by the next raid). If DE flipping FINALLY rebalances the game just to shoehorn the OP stuff that trivializes everything into raids, i'll quit for good.

[Loza03]

1 minute ago, quxier said:

(1) There are other ways to makes enemies harder to beat. For example Sentients. You can hit them for hours but if you don't have good damages or you don't reset it then you will have hard time.

Sentients just get a flat 90% damage resistance, and unfortunately, there's means to be able to just straight up ignore that. I was there for Scarlet Spear and Mesa's could do work with or without Operator interaction.

2 minutes ago, quxier said:

(2) Interesting content isn't only based on power. However in this game I think people rarely wants something else.

It's based on agency.

In this game, the player interacts almost overwhelmingly through combat, or through movement. That is the nature of the game. The player also has means to be able to overpower anything that isn't just rendered invincible on contact.

8 minutes ago, quxier said:

(1) And that's a problem of Primaries/Secondaries NOT melee.

No, it's a problem with balance which is everything. The game isn't a bunch of isolated systems, everything is connected.

9 minutes ago, quxier said:

(2) In low level settings, when I'm bored but I "have to" do something I often go with guns because they are easier to use.

I also run with guns as much as possible, but that really doesn't change the fact that melee is the optimal option, and players will by and large go for the optimal option. An exception does not disprove the rule.

10 minutes ago, quxier said:

(3) And that's the problem with whole game not only weapon balance. Nerfing melee won't help balancing game too much. But it's easier. Why I go with Mesa when I've been playing POE bounties? Enemy spawn is bad and Mesa's autobot helps. Melee won't help here.

This is true. The game is horribly balanced as I've alluded to by the fact that I don't refer to just melee in the explanation. However, that's not a get-out-of-jail-free card for Melee. It's a part of that whole, and must be fixed as a part of that whole.

12 minutes ago, quxier said:

To be honest when I used to play with other people CO-OP were like you described: everyone can do the same job, sometimes maybe giving some energy/hp. It was before melee buff. So I don't think only melee is responsible for lack of or weak state of CO-OP.

It's not. In fact, it's one of the areas where melee is arguably less impactful (now that Spin-to-win is no longer as prevalent, at least) that for example, Saryn or Mesa.

However, like I said, Melee is still a part of the overall problem.

15 minutes ago, quxier said:

That's wrong and there other problem.

Linking to a thread doing some calcuations.

Spoiler

 

This does include rivens, but yes, Melee's can hit the 1 million DPS mark. I'm also fairly sure I've seen images of Glaives hitting the million mark in AoE too, but I can't confirm that.

18 minutes ago, quxier said:

First if enemy is smart it can show some treat. For example Comander teleporting you. They have probably similar hp/armor like other enemies (I mean not much stronger) but they can teleport you to some place. If you are not careful you can get stunlocked for some time.

"Hey guys I just teleported the guy that can instakill you with melee attacks into melee range" 

Sarcastic comments aside, Commanders have long since been changed, and I've not had a situation where they've been able to do anything like this for some time. They're enemies on the rarer side, need line of sight, take two seconds to teleport which is interrupted by one of the most common forms of movement (bullet jumping) and glow orange revealing their location. And of course, they frequently wind up dying before they actually have a chance to use their ability.

Aside from that, enemies don't actually have that terrible AI, especially Grineer. Buggy, yes, but they'll take cover, throw grenades at players behind cover, have great tracking and some will even ambush the player. The fact that this is never noticed in actual gameplay says something.

25 minutes ago, quxier said:

Secondly we are expecting to kill many enemies. They could do much better AI but it will slow down fights. They don't want it. That's what I heard.

You are conflating 'complex' AI with 'good' AI.

'Good' AI is conditional, and does not need to be complex. As you say, complex AI can and will slow down fights. 'Good' AI for Warframe would likely look like group efforts between enemies that rewards the player with the opportunity to get easy multi-kills for proper target prioritisation, somewhat similar to Halo, as well as posing interesting gameplay challenges like the Glyphid Menace in Deep Rock Galactic.

Of course, with Warframe's current setup, this is highly impractical.

27 minutes ago, quxier said:

Players will always find a method to deal more damage. You would have to nerf a lot of weapons, frames, companions etc.

I mean, yeah. This trend has been going on a while. DE has historically favoured buffs over nerfs, and frequently has accompanied nerfs with big buffs. I mean, consider the last time Melee got nerfed for the exact same reason it's getting nerfed now (namely doing way more damage than guns). DE tripled base damage and introduced the heavy attack which allowed the player to multiply their damage severalfold. This was effectively to bring the weapons in line with guns, since back then, they required scaling mods due to having far and away the worst base stats in the game (MR15 swords matching MR0 guns for base damage, it was that bad) However, they only half-heartedly nerfed the scaling mods, and kept the concept of scaling as well. Which meant that, in reality, the 'nerf' was practically just a massive buff to everything else.

The point I'm making here is that all these problems exist because DE either hasn't properly engaged in long-term thinking when introducing new ideas like Armour 2.0 (not revised, the OG armour 2.0) or Melee 2.0, and then been too cautious when trying to deal with the ramifications of those ideas long past the point where the problem became apparent.

[TARINunit9]

3 hours ago, Silvertap said:

I really don't get it...

Melee is so overpowered, it actually kills the game... 

Because Warframe is not actually a game where you use skill to win This isn't like the Dark Souls games where you can beat every boss naked with a pocketknife as long as you're skilled enough. No, in Warframe you either have overpowered gear or you just die. You CANNOT win on skill, ever; it's gear check or dead

Nerfing ANYthing means that the Tenno are just flat-out weaker now. Now you can't go as long in survival, as long in defense. It means Steel Path is even more boring and tedious than before unless something else was buffed to take its place

That is why lots of people hate nerfs

[Surbusken]

If melee is still 'largely the same' what was the point then. Wasted time they could have spent working on neglected frames or something else.

Making the "gun buff" a copy-pasted combo duration system like melee is alienating everyone who doesn't use combo duration.

 

You can use arcane dexterity, bonus on melee kill, to charge your guns - but then you are already using melee, and, will have to keep using melee to keep your gun charged.

What is the point, pragmatically, to worry about charging your gun, if your melee weapon is already working.

I really don't want to sit and look at countdown timers on my screen telling me what to do. I am sure it's great the game has the combo duration mechanics for the people who are into it.

But the whole entire "gun buff" is one-sided and does zero for people not using combo.

[TARINunit9]

12 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

"Hey guys I just teleported the guy that can instakill you with melee attacks into melee range" 

Sarcastic comments aside, Commanders have long since been changed, and I've not had a situation where they've been able to do anything like this for some time. They're enemies on the rarer side, need line of sight, take two seconds to teleport which is interrupted by one of the most common forms of movement (bullet jumping) and glow orange revealing their location. And of course, they frequently wind up dying before they actually have a chance to use their ability.

The real problem with Commanders was the lack of any real counterplay from the players. I know I just typed a whole comment about Warframe needing no skill, but Commanders took it far past the point it was acceptable. If a Commander so much as spawned, you just flat-out could not play the game for 3 seconds. That alone is stupid, but you're either so overpowered that it doesn't matter (which is boring and frustrating), or you're facing level 300 enemies who can and will kill you during those 3 seconds, with ZERO ability to defend yourself (which is also boring and frustrating).

Nerfing the Commanders gave players the ability to actually PLAY the game. If you see a Commander, you can choose to take cover, to dodge, to rush him down, or to just tank the damage and rely on Handspring to lessen the time you spend vulnerable. Players getting to choose options is fun

[Loza03]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

The real problem with Commanders was the lack of any real counterplay from the players. I know I just typed a whole comment about Warframe needing no skill, but Commanders took it far past the point it was acceptable. If a Commander so much as spawned, you just flat-out could not play the game for 3 seconds. That alone is stupid, but you're either so overpowered that it doesn't matter (which is boring and frustrating), or you're facing level 300 enemies who can and will kill you during those 3 seconds, with ZERO ability to defend yourself (which is also boring and frustrating).

Nerfing the Commanders gave players the ability to actually PLAY the game. If you see a Commander, you can choose to take cover, to dodge, to rush him down, or to just tank the damage and rely on Handspring to lessen the time you spend vulnerable. Players getting to choose options is fun

True, but this demonstrates how the issue I discussed earlier with mission types and agency applies on a smaller scale.

Either the enemies remove player agency, or the enemy dies before they do anything. Neither actually winds up particularly fun in the long run.

[(PSN)MJ-Cena7]

Its like asking why dont you want life to be harder 

Its a stupid question 

[Leqesai]

2 hours ago, o0Despair0o said:

By now I'm convinced that people are just too damn dense for it.

Too dense for what? Developing critical thinking skills?

 

[DrivaMain]

Simple, they don't want to use their brain to play the game. If the game is actually engaging they can't play Warframe while streaming videos anymore.

[Traumtulpe]

I suppose if killing enemies while under the effect of Dragon Keys is impressing you enough to make a forum post about it, I might as well show you this video:

The only difference is that I'm not invincible, that I'm killing faster, and that the weapon I used will receive massive buffs. I guess by your logic guns will be quadruple OP then?

[quxier]

57 minutes ago, Loza03 said:

Sentients just get a flat 90% damage resistance, and unfortunately, there's means to be able to just straight up ignore that. I was there for Scarlet Spear and Mesa's could do work with or without Operator interaction.

Of course probably most if not all can be cheesed. We have Xata's whisper so now Mesa can do more damage for Sentients.

I mean general idea. You don't just go to highest damage and expect to kill it. You need to reset their resistance by Operator from time to time. This doesn't make their HP bigger (if you do it "right").

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I also run with guns as much as possible, but that really doesn't change the fact that melee is the optimal option, and players will by and large go for the optimal option. An exception does not disprove the rule.

I don't think so. Guns are easier to use. You may hold a LMB and move around. Everything dies. With melee I need to move from point to point.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

However, that's not a get-out-of-jail-free card for Melee. It's a part of that whole, and must be fixed as a part of that whole.

I agree. I think they should take their time to balance whole system not just pick one.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

No, it's a problem with balance which is everything. The game isn't a bunch of isolated systems, everything is connected.

Suuure.... but it's not that melee cannot kill enemies. Nerfing melees won't change the fact that some primaries cannot kill fast enough. You need to buff Primaries/Secondaries so they can be chosen for certain content.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

However, like I said, Melee is still a part of the overall problem.

Part... but it's small part.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

This does include rivens, but yes, Melee's can hit the 1 million DPS mark. I'm also fairly sure I've seen images of Glaives hitting the million mark in AoE too, but I can't confirm that.

I don't mean melee cannot do huge damage. I meant that it's worth developing AI even a player has huge damage.

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

"Hey guys I just teleported the guy that can instakill you with melee attacks into melee range" 

Sarcastic comments aside, Commanders have long since been changed, and I've not had a situation where they've been able to do anything like this for some time. They're enemies on the rarer side, need line of sight, take two seconds to teleport which is interrupted by one of the most common forms of movement (bullet jumping) and glow orange revealing their location. And of course, they frequently wind up dying before they actually have a chance to use their ability.

They don't posses huge treat if you know how to deal with them (I haven't seen "orange glow" but I can hear their "ringing", I guess some options are on or off).

However I hear people complaining about not being able to deal with them. So I think they are good example of "better AI".

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

I mean, yeah. This trend has been going on a while. DE has historically favoured buffs over nerfs, and frequently has accompanied nerfs with big buffs. I mean, consider the last time Melee got nerfed for the exact same reason it's getting nerfed now (namely doing way more damage than guns). DE tripled base damage and introduced the heavy attack which allowed the player to multiply their damage severalfold. This was effectively to bring the weapons in line with guns, since back then, they required scaling mods due to having far and away the worst base stats in the game (MR15 swords matching MR0 guns for base damage, it was that bad) However, they only half-heartedly nerfed the scaling mods, and kept the concept of scaling as well. Which meant that, in reality, the 'nerf' was practically just a massive buff to everything else.

The point I'm making here is that all these problems exist because DE either hasn't properly engaged in long-term thinking when introducing new ideas like Armour 2.0 (not revised, the OG armour 2.0) or Melee 2.0, and then been too cautious when trying to deal with the ramifications of those ideas long past the point where the problem became apparent.

I meant that you need to nerf a lot of things to see less RNG. Imagine an enemy have 1% chance to drop a mod. You nerf melee. A player will just pick other weapons/frame that do the same or maybe even better job. There is no reason to change that 1% drop.

 

1 hour ago, Loza03 said:

Aside from that, enemies don't actually have that terrible AI, especially Grineer. Buggy, yes, but they'll take cover, throw grenades at players behind cover, have great tracking and some will even ambush the player. The fact that this is never noticed in actual gameplay says something.

I like to jump around an enemy that "takes cover"? :D /little joke to finish this post/

[(PSN)ErydisTheLucario]

Why people don't want it nerfed? For me the question is can you really think of a better way to play SP? I can't, aside from using debuffs alot more...probably the way to do it obviously. Those gun mods aren't gonna help whatsoever, because guns still have a really low time to kill on SP. This is literally my only complaint, I'm worried that SP is gonna be tedious AF now due to the changes. 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

Simple and very obvious answer, most casual players don't actually want a challenge. Something I find disappointing personally but it's their choice.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

33 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

Why people don't want it nerfed? For me the question is can you really think of a better way to play SP? I can't, and those gun mods aren't gonna help whatsoever, because guns still have a really low time to kill on SP. This is literally my only complaint, that SP is gonna be tedious AF now due to the changes. 

Firstly the changes aren't going to do much, if you understood the mechanics you'd realise this. Secondly if you can't think of any other ways of doing SP effectively then you might want to improve your game knowledge.

[(PSN)max141064]

37 minutes ago, (PSN)ErydisTheLucario said:

Why people don't want it nerfed? For me the question is can you really think of a better way to play SP? I can't, and those gun mods aren't gonna help whatsoever, because guns still have a really low time to kill on SP. This is literally my only complaint, that SP is gonna be tedious AF now due to the changes. 

i mean...i can melt enemies in SP even without the galvanized mod. 

why should galvanized mods not be good enough to make ttk even faster? lol

[-CdG-Zilchy]

6 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

I suppose if killing enemies while under the effect of Dragon Keys is impressing you enough to make a forum post about it, I might as well show you this video:

The only difference is that I'm not invincible, that I'm killing faster, and that the weapon I used will receive massive buffs. I guess by your logic guns will be quadruple OP then?

Venom Dose?

[(NSW)Greybones]

Interesting video in the OP.

😏 I do love me some meta disruption. Across any game

[Venus-Venera]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Godmode_Ash:

Really? Another one?

really now.......
also about which people is the topic? i only know a few trolls ... and they are all on ignore.
there has never been any serious feedback about mele and its damage! at least I didn't see any!

[mrpyro12345678]

10 часов назад, BiancaRoughfin сказал:

Because many Warframe players are Spoiled by power, others cant do Math and dont understand why its easier to nerf 100 items instead of buffing 400.

Yep. That's what it looks like.

And then there's the opinion hydra who wants everything and dislikes everything at the same time.
HAIL HYDRA!

[Venus-Venera]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb DrivaMain:

Simple, they don't want to use their brain to play the game. If the game is actually engaging they can't play Warframe while streaming videos anymore.

you probably don't know what brain is and how it works. without a brain you can't even move your arm. i don't know of any situation where normal people don't use their brains ...

and what changes with the new patch? oh yes ......... you press the same button a bit more often. WOOOOOOOOOW

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Why do people WANT melee nerfed?

people using melee doesn’t negatively affect you. It’s not like Gram prime hitting a 1 million damage red crit is going to make it impossible for you to enjoy the game when playing with someone who’s using that.

All you’re doing is asking for yourself to be weaker.

And how far down the rabbit hole do you people intend to go? Is the idea of anything dealing damage over 100 complete taboo to you? Do you despise the very concept of killing an enemy? Will you not rest until just trying to get through an exterminate takes 4 hours because weapons are so completely undertuned that the damage from bullet jumping would be a more viable source of damage?

[Silvertap]

Actually after seen so many replys that goes along with what i think, that "melee are overpowered and needs a nerf (to say the leat)" i feel i little more relieved. For a sec i thotgh that i was almost alone in this, and now i start to think that, maybe, we are majority...

[Loza03]

10 hours ago, quxier said:

Of course probably most if not all can be cheesed. We have Xata's whisper so now Mesa can do more damage for Sentients.

I mean general idea. You don't just go to highest damage and expect to kill it. You need to reset their resistance by Operator from time to time. This doesn't make their HP bigger (if you do it "right").

If cheesing it is more efficient than not, then the point is ultimately moot, because as mentioned, a not insubstantial number of people will choose efficient over fun.

It is the Designers prerogative to ensure that 'efficient' and 'fun' coincide as much as possible.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't think so. Guns are easier to use. You may hold a LMB and move around. Everything dies. With melee I need to move from point to point.

Your experience is one data point, mine is another multiple youtubers and forumites and DE themselves indicates that there are more data points otherwise.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

I agree. I think they should take their time to balance whole system not just pick one.

Preach, although I certainly believe that Melee is overtuned either way.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't mean melee cannot do huge damage. I meant that it's worth developing AI even a player has huge damage.

Personally I would err to agree, if for no reason other than the fact I'm actively trying to avoid the OP stuff myself and I find aspects of WF's combat loop lacking due to elements of the AI, both in the Artificial Intelligence and Artificial Stupidity departments.

However, I also know I'm not the majority of the playerbase who'll nuke these poor fools 0.34 seconds after they spawn. And this shows since once DE really started the whole 'new enemies for every new area' thing they've been doing recently, they were full of enemies that I think were quite well designed. PoE troops had air support from Ohgmas and frequent artillery support, OV had the mini-bosses, Jupiter with the amalgams who each had unique powers.

Thing is, they either irritated the playerbase (often due to numerical problems due to the nightmare that is balancing things in WF's current state), or failed to make any real impact. And the fact that the number of interesting enemy types per new area has gone down demonstrates this. (I also believe one of the Quite Shy interviews had one of the devs mention this exact problem)

10 hours ago, quxier said:

They don't posses huge treat if you know how to deal with them (I haven't seen "orange glow" but I can hear their "ringing", I guess some options are on or off).

However I hear people complaining about not being able to deal with them. So I think they are good example of "better AI".

It is worth noting that's a better ability, not AI, which is a subtle but important difference.

Still, yes, Commanders are more interesting than another 'Crewman but it shoots a different particle effect'.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

I meant that you need to nerf a lot of things to see less RNG. Imagine an enemy have 1% chance to drop a mod. You nerf melee. A player will just pick other weapons/frame that do the same or maybe even better job. There is no reason to change that 1% drop.

It's a chicken or the egg situation. DE was known for having a pretty fair grinding policy and making all the player's progress count back in the old days. But as players started getting more and more hundreds of thousands of nanospores and credits due to increased power and grinding technique, DE also started increasing grind to compensate.

The two are therefore intertwined. Reworking player's ability to auto-grind would in turn give DE more room to not need 1% drops to make items valuable.

10 hours ago, quxier said:

I like to jump around an enemy that "takes cover"? :D /little joke to finish this post/

Always fun.

[(PSN)slightconfuzzled]

Well... the thing about Warframe, that causes so much division, is probably its potential for optimisation which is directly influenced by how much variety it has. Most people probably don't really get involved with the minutiae, a lot go for what feels good or is known to be effective. When either of that is threatened, it can inspire negativity. I don't disagree with the video in OP, but you compare a solo Inaros in Steel Path Survival who can get to max combo, to a solo squishy character in Steel Path Interception. Where you have to try lock down 4 points, where its harder to maintain combo counter, because just killing enemies isn't necessarily your only goal. Then having a weapon like Glaive Prime which is potent without necessarily building combo is great! 

So we have a bunch of different Warframes, with different abilities, so many different weapons, of different natures, Arcanes, Focus schools, mission types, enemy types, elemental types... skill levels, play styles, attitudes... its definitely easy that, if you try to optimise a scenario involving some of those variables, you will be very powerful, and it will be easy, but that doesn't necessarily mean you will in all situations, and then you have to consider those that don't try to optimise in every single way, and at what cut off point exists. 

My personal play style, luckily for me, is enjoying a lot of the variety in the game, so my willingness to switch to different Warframe's, weapons and builds, gives me an advantage over someone who isn't. That being said, its also easy for me to empathise with those that don't want nerfs, because some parts of the game, **feel** more enjoyable. Like I like the feeling of Gunblade weapons. Nunchaku less so. If the latter got buffed and the former nerfed, I'd still use Gunblades... but then again if there was a Steel Path Disruption, and I knew the game would go easier/faster if I brought Ninkondi Prime over Stropha, then I would probably bring them... but wish Stropha was as effective (or more effective, since I view it as the cooler more fun weapon). Thats just my preference, I guess with some people its entire categories of weapon type.